Do you like health regen changes? [PvP]

divnyi

Lets try to understand how much regen PvP players would feel to be balanced. I deliberately split all choices into npCP and CP, please choose for the mode you play most.

I didn't add "nerf regen at battlespirit, but buff across the board" here because it just adds another layer of discussion (buff health regen in PvE) that is irrelevant to PvP balance, and not all people will do the math correctly. Just assume that buffing health regen overboard is possible in every voting scenario. This thread is about "how much impact we want from this stat to PvP".

My personal feelings (noCP): it is overnerfed / it didn't need the nerf. We just got a mythic with 1k health regen. In a normal situation, I would be very glad to hear that, as it means it can be buffed to 1400 regen, which roughly translates into 1400 HP/s and is like another smol HoT running in the background for you. But I don't get this kind of hype now. Nobody does. Everyone say "remove health regen from it and all more useful stats". It doesn't mean mythic is badly designed now, it means HP regen is a bad change.

ResidentContrarian

Yes, 50% nerf at battle spirit is justified (CP)

If hp regen can be obtained at high values just from slotting a CP star and food, then it needs to be cut in half.

If hp regen can exceed the healing of skills that take actual stat-investment because it wasn't cut in half, then it needs to be cut in half just like those heals.

If hp regen contributes to the tanky-burst meta, then it needs to be cut in half.

The problem is, it's not IF on live server it is and does. The PvP meta right now for anyone in the know is stacking hp regen. With the return of procs, introduction of gaze of sithis, re-introduction of hp regen sets from proc sets, etc. the last thing anyone needs is see someone with 10K+ hp regen running around smashing people's faces in with little consequence while they are unkillable because it's too easy to stack, much like HP itself. Much like hp there are also tri-runes that allow you to stack it with little real consequence.

On live stacking enough hp regen on the right build you don't even need the block button. Just stack hp regen and speed, and you have the absolute advantage over anyone that isn't through either sustain, damage, defense, or one or more of them depending on the class, only pointing to how the mechanic itself on live was not and is not balanced.

I am of the opinion that healing should require real investment, and stacking hp or hp regen to "heal" isn't enough of a sacrifice when you can do so and obtain equivalent or better "healing" than builds that put everything into healing.

Not to mention there is no skill required to be cast (taking opportunity cost) to obtain healing from hp regen sources, ultimately increasing damage and sustain allowing you to build either more damage, sustain, or defense, or be able to take an action that increases those in a real battle situation.

Some may disagree and claim that hp regen requires a sacrifice, and that's fine; they are entitled to believe what they want. But when the dev team themselves point to a mechanic doing too much and they have the hard data to make that decision, there's little argument to be made against it, even if you don't always like their balancing decisions.

Mythreindeer

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

A high health regen is a pretty niche build. I don't see the need for the nerf.

divnyi

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

But when the dev team themselves point to a mechanic doing too much and they have the hard data to make that decision, there's little argument to be made against it, even if you don't always like their balancing decisions.

I have no doubt they can gather some data to see what's most broken, I doubt they interpret the data correctly. For now, we have glazing 2k difference in CP and noCP. It means they should nerf CPs by cutting em by 1/3. Maybe HP regen would still be overtuned, they should reduce it slightly (say, 80%) and see what happens.

In the past, devs nuked skill dots. They don't do anything about overnerfed stuff, they only nerf top stuff. Why health regen and HP stacking is so good now? Because we don't have enough powerful skill dots to make those tanks cry. I remember pre-nerf times, heavy was a meme. Did dots need nerf? Yes, absolutely. Did dots needed to be destroyed? No. This was a bad balancing decision. And I fear they make another bad balancing decision again.

ResidentContrarian

Yes, 50% nerf at battle spirit is justified (CP)

Mythreindeer wrote: »

A high health regen is a pretty niche build. I don't see the need for the nerf.

Reality is quite different. I wouldn't see the need for a nerf either if it was a mechanic I thought was secret and no one else knew about when everyone else does. [edit]

divnyi wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

But when the dev team themselves point to a mechanic doing too much and they have the hard data to make that decision, there's little argument to be made against it, even if you don't always like their balancing decisions.

I have no doubt they can gather some data to see what's most broken, I doubt they interpret the data correctly. For now, we have glazing 2k difference in CP and noCP. It means they should nerf CPs by cutting em by 1/3. Maybe HP regen would still be overtuned, they should reduce it slightly (say, 80%) and see what happens.

In the past, devs nuked skill dots. They don't do anything about overnerfed stuff, they only nerf top stuff. Why health regen and HP stacking is so good now? Because we don't have enough powerful skill dots to make those tanks cry. I remember pre-nerf times, heavy was a meme. Did dots need nerf? Yes, absolutely. Did dots needed to be destroyed? No. This was a bad balancing decision. And I fear they make another bad balancing decision again.

Disagree. You answered why it needed a nerf in the first place: DoTs aren't as powerful as hp regen is. It takes two to three DoTs on an offensive build to negate hp regen being stacked by -- offensive builds, and that's ignoring any healing they do outside of hp regen. No one can say that is balanced.

HP regen likely was never meant to be an alternative or better than healing, but that's exactly what it is on live.

In fact, contrary to what some people believe as "niche" building, every ball group that isn't out of the loop knows what hp regen is for and what it can do for them, every player that is solo knows what is for and what it can do for them, every tank, and every person that knows how to heal knows what it can do for them on the live server.

HP regen stacking doesn't require any real stat investment on live that warrants that level of power.

I can stack HoTs and heal over 9k hps minimum without hp regen, but because it requires so little investment, simply increase it to 4k-5k hp regen and gain that in addition to the 9k in a no proc.

That means, once procs return, I can get that healing, that hp regen, and slot proc sets that also heal and have enough healing to forgo defense. With Gaze of Sithis introduction, I won't even have to lose defense in that same scenario and would gain even more hp regen than before. At that point I can facetank large amounts of players with little consequence.

By no means can I ever find that balanced and I am sure no one else can either. But what you all continue to do is look at things in an isolated way instead of the sum of them.

I've said it before on this forum that imbalance will always appear whenever a mechanic grants either defense or offense without any real trade off. It's precisely because those mechanics can always be stacked with ones that do and grant too much power in those cases every time.

amir412

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

HP currently is pretty much meh, even with 3k it won't help you against the burst meta. This change makes no sense to me.
It also put vamp as the obvious choice for mitigation, I thought ESO is about diversity? x)

DreadDaedroth

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

It was balanced like stamina and magicka recoveries. No need to halve it.

Tommy_The_Gun

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

Both CP & no CP actually.

Sylosi

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

I am of the opinion that healing should require real investment...

If hp regen can exceed the healing of skills that take actual stat-investment...

Has this game changed then? I haven't played this game in a long while, but when I played one of the most busted things was you didn't need any real stat investment for healing as a damage dealer, because there is no healing stat. So if your build was built for damage you would end up with high heals for free, because they often scaled off some combination of max stat, weapon / spell damage, etc, with no real stat investment in healing.

divnyi

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Disagree. You answered why it needed a nerf in the first place: DoTs aren't as powerful as hp regen is. It takes two to three DoTs on an offensive build to negate hp regen being stacked by -- offensive builds, and that's ignoring any healing they do outside of hp regen. No one can say that is balanced.

That says loud and clean about DoTs really, not about HP regen. Currently, dots hit approx 1.3x times the spammable. That's way too little.

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

every ball group that isn't out of the loop knows what hp regen is for and what it can do for them

They also know about cross-heals. I would say balls abuse cross-heals much more that health regen. Which I wont mind to be nerfed either, and this will be much better target for nerf.

I would really be surprised if ball groups build stuff like Alessian, that gives no boost for group. I imagine they can pick whatever free regen food and CP gives, but that's about it.

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

I've said it before on this forum that imbalance will always appear whenever a mechanic grants either defense or offense without any real trade off. It's precisely because those mechanics can always be stacked with ones that do and grant too much power in those cases every time.

Any sources that can be stacked completely without any trade-off, except CP? Best food source requires you to go tristat. While effective, it is also limiting mana/stam regens from food. And they can nerf sculls 3stat pools a bit too, so they would be as stat dense as other 3stat food.

Urzigurumash

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

Sylosi wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

I am of the opinion that healing should require real investment...

If hp regen can exceed the healing of skills that take actual stat-investment...

Has this game changed then? I haven't played this game in a long while, but when I played one of the most busted things was you didn't need any real stat investment for healing as a damage dealer, because there is no healing stat. So if your build was built for damage you would end up with high heals for free, because they often scaled off some combination of max stat, weapon / spell damage, etc, with no real stat investment in healing.

Here's the big difference.

Who stacks damage? Damage Dealers.

Who stacks HP Regen? Tanks.

Damage Dealers are good, Tanks are bad. Hence, damage-scaled healing is good, and HP Regen is bad.

/s

On a serious note, this change is justified if HP Regen is to be made relevant in PvE, since sources of HP Regen will need a large buff from their live values to make that a reality. It will be impossible to balance HP Regen vs Healing in both PvP and PvE if one is subject to Battlespirit and the other is not. In this way, even if we say that HP Regen is balanced in PvP on live, it is not in PvE. After this change, it could be balanced in both, but integer sources or percentile buffs to HP Regen need a large increase.

the1andonlyskwex

Yes, 50% nerf at battle spirit is justified (noCP)

TBH, I thought health regen was already affected by battle spirit (because it's basically just healing by another name), so this change feels more like a bugfix than anything else to me.

xylena_lazarow

It is overkill but justified, I'd like to see 70-80% of original values (CP)

The problem with HP regen was powerful low investment sources like Sugar Skulls and Strategic Reserve, along with absurdly dense sets like Endurance and Alessian. In typical ZOS fashion they blanket nerfed the mechanic instead of going after the outliers, so now things like Steed Mundus and Seventh Legion are bad. My stamsorc build was deleted, but I don't mourn, at this point anything that makes players less tanky is welcome.

I really hope it doesn't lead to a "mandatory vamp stage 3" meta for competitive PvP though, because mandatory vamp is lame. I also can't believe after that huge CP overhaul that we're still talking about balancing CP versus noCP. In conclusion, buff Steed Mundus.

gariondavey

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The problem with HP regen was powerful low investment sources like Sugar Skulls and Strategic Reserve, along with absurdly dense sets like Endurance and Alessian. In typical ZOS fashion they blanket nerfed the mechanic instead of going after the outliers, so now things like Steed Mundus and Seventh Legion are bad. My stamsorc build was deleted, but I don't mourn, at this point anything that makes players less tanky is welcome.

I really hope it doesn't lead to a "mandatory vamp stage 3" meta for competitive PvP though, because mandatory vamp is lame. I also can't believe after that huge CP overhaul that we're still talking about balancing CP versus noCP. In conclusion, buff Steed Mundus.

Agree with 7th and steed nerfing are now garbo

Ringod123

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

Simply another case of ZOS choosing to not understand the issue, Health regen has never been an issue in PvP, the insane amount of heal skills/abilities certain classes have is and has been since Warden/Necro came around.
Feels to me like this change is coming because too many PVP'ers are slotting the red star that gives you 30 health regen for every 10 ult, now that its bonus is effectively halved it probably wont be worth running over one of the others.
Honestly, you would think that after 7 years ZOS would have some idea on how to actually balance their game.

gariondavey

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

Ringod123 wrote: »

Simply another case of ZOS choosing to not understand the issue, Health regen has never been an issue in PvP, the insane amount of heal skills/abilities certain classes have is and has been since Warden/Necro came around.
Feels to me like this change is coming because too many PVP'ers are slotting the red star that gives you 30 health regen for every 10 ult, now that its bonus is effectively halved it probably wont be worth running over one of the others.
Honestly, you would think that after 7 years ZOS would have some idea on how to actually balance their game.

Right? What were they thinking when they made that star? It probably was the reason everyone, especially no cp got screwed over

xylena_lazarow

It is overkill but justified, I'd like to see 70-80% of original values (CP)

Ringod123 wrote: »

Feels to me like this change is coming because too many PVP'ers are slotting the red star that gives you 30 health regen for every 10 ult, now that its bonus is effectively halved it probably wont be worth running over one of the others.

I was still able to get over 2k hp regen on stamsorc with relatively light investment on PTS, with about half of that coming from Strategic Reserve, which seems remarkably fair now. Seriously though, buff Steed Mundus.

Mayrael

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

As I mentioned in other thread, now Hist Sap can heal you 1k per second, which equals to 2k hp recovery which requires 4k hp recovery built. Seems pretty fair doesn't it? Also if the strategic reserve was the issue, then why don't nerf just it? Though I hardly believe it was the real issue as like 95% players I've met spammed ultimates on cool down.

It's pointless anyway, ZOS won't reverse it.

Pepegrillos

At least from a no-cp bg perspective (so, not sure what goes on in other pvp regions), it seems like they took a decision one patch too late, for a problem that is not there anymore.

Back when regens worked in mistform, you could see a bunch of people running around absolutely stacked in health regen. But ever since regens in mistform were nerfed, and burst builds started to become prominent (I don't remember if the free weapon and spell damage change coincided with the mistform change or not), barely anyone runs health regen builds.

Effectively, this change will send a bunch of sets directly to a trashcan, including alessian (which had been nerfed already).

50% seems like an overkill to me.

Fischblut

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

Also if the strategic reserve was the issue, then why don't nerf just it?

For me, that CP star died before it was even live... They nerfed it greatly after they first introduced it (while it was still on PTS).

After next patch and nerfs to health recovery, I will have to deconstruct few of my currently used sets Again... And my werewolf most likely will no longer transform.

Forgot to add: I play both noCP (Battlegrounds) and CP (Cyrodiil, IC).

Gilvoth

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (CP)

the only thing this is going to do is hurt nightblades like me that have low health.
we will now die 50% faster than we did before.

Lughlongarm

Cutting health regen effectiveness by 50% in PvP (from the top value) is well justified and it is also good that the healing reduction penalty in PvP is the same for all healing sources.

However, as many mentioned before, the sources that give this stat are not balanced around such an harsh penalty.

3 Changes that should be considered:

1)Make any debuff that effect healing(defile and such) not to impact health regen. This used to be the case 1-2 years ago. They should change it back. Important to remember that health regen is not effected by buffs that amplify healing.

2)Give troll king its original values before nerf. This is a pvp only set.

3)Give battle spirit a Health Recovery bonus of 50%(from the base, like the heavy armor passive).

So basically if you have base 1000 health regen(without any bonuses and without battle spirit) ), in PVP, health regen will tick for 750 down from the original 1000 value.

If you have 1000 healing power base and 100% health regen bonuses (without battle spirit), in PVP health regen will tick for 1250 every 2 sec, down from the original 2000.

This change basically puts a penalty on the amount of health regen you can stack via multipliers which results in a very small nerf when you have 0 multipliers(25% from top) and a big nerf when you have high multipliers(47.5% from top, on multipliers of 100% ).

divnyi

No, health regen was balanced and doesn't need any changes (noCP)

Bumping it up because no changes to regens in 7.0.3

@ZOS_GinaBruno don't kill the whole array of items that give this stat. Look at the numbers in this poll and raise the question of HP regen again, please.

Canned_Apples

Doesn’t matter. They already nerfed mist form and killed troll king.

LightYagami

It is overkill but justified, I'd like to see 70-80% of original values (CP)

Problems of overpowered high health regeneration are mainly related to particular (paid) classes or new gears.

If they would like to nerf it, they should focus on those particular (ptw) builds instead of making this universal nerf.

Even they're enforcing the universal nerf, 50% is too harsh.

Iriidius

health regen minor set boni(129) and juwelry glyphs(169) give same number as mag/stam regen or weapon damage minor set boni/juwelry glyphs and still underperforming. But the last bonus of endurance/beekeeper/eternal vigorget 3x as much hp regen than they should have. unconditional 5 pc boni have 2.32 the value of minor set boni, so beekeeper should be 300 hp regen and it was 300 hp regen until they decided to buff it to 900 hp regen in update 28. So why do you get 3 hp regen for 1 wpn dmg/stam/mag regen by this sets while you get only 1 hp regen otherwise? And people that stack hp regen usually only use this overperforming soursses.