7.0.2 Proc Set Changes & the Death of Proc Sets in PVE

WrongFranchise

Just adding my voice in to raise my objection to the gear scaling. On top of the CP changes (first increasing the cap, then reducing the effectiveness) and reducing the effectiveness of fun gear, it seems that ZOS is trying to streamline the game into oblivion.

Even SWTOR, which for years had flat stat boost set bonus gear decided to diversify set bonus options in 6.0.

I don't think this change has anything to do with "balance", I think it is, in combination with the CP changes, a way to make the game take longer and make players less powerful. Except that half of 100k DPS is still 50k DPS, while half of 40k DPS is only 20k DPS. I run a lot of nTrials and vHM dungeons (including DLCs). I find that 100k DPS players are few and far between. The 20-40k ones are the most common, and these are the ones who will feel the power nerf the most.

I honestly don't have a problem with the power level of players in this game. I myself only do 45k, if someone does 100k, they deserve to do it. Moreover, I mostly run stat gear on my endgame characters, so this change won't affect me much. However, it takes all the fun out of sets that can be fun, for instance running heal-on-block sets for my tanks for when I do solo content, or even Overwhelming Surge, which is just fun to pair with a sorc for the sake of doing lightning damage everywhere.

Sure, you might say "Those fun sets you had weren't META anyway, what does it matter if they were nerfed?" It does matter, because a wet noodle does less damage than a dry noodle.

Let's not get distracted by (probably deliberate) implications that this is a change because of PVP. PVPers will and have "adapt and overcome". Part of the joy of PVP is finding the most broken build and using it to its full advantage. This change is not about balance, and not about PVP. This is because ZOS thinks players are too powerful.

FlamingMeat

Just like everyone else here has echoed: They're lowering the DPS ceiling by a few inches and completely demolishing the floors beneath.

YandereGirlfriend

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah another patch without any distinctive vision that would be eventually scrapped next time opportunity comes

Well said and completely correct as far as I can tell.

Likely, we will either see some phantom patch-day adjustments or else we will for sure seeing more variations on the theme come next PTS.

So much easier to simply get it right the first time.

Gylzyn

I am at a loss to understand the vision/direction of the game with the changes (e.g. proc sets, scaling, CP) that are being introduced in Update 30. It all feels disjointed - as though different parts of the game have been developed by different people with little coherent overall plan.

marius_buys

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Sadly changes were made to please a loud minority, the PvP players.

Correction, the loud Stam PvP players, I doubt that we will see much Magica PvP other than from top 10% elite players who play as optimized, combined and organized small scalers.

I firmly believe the combat dev team does not have a Magica Rep anywhere in that dizzy swing lovin dept.

marius_buys

WrongFranchise wrote: »

I find that 100k DPS players are few and far between. The 20-40k ones are the most common, and these are the ones who will feel the power nerf the most.

The PvE Objection in a nutshell

MudcrabAttack

LeonAkando wrote: »

7.0.2 Changes:
Thoughts:

Overall in PVE, Proc Sets are disfavored over stat sets. The reason is quite simple, they're weak. In Flames of Ambition, a MagDD can run a set like Icy Conjuror and maybe get 2k DPS out of it, or they can run Siroria's and get 6-7k out of the extra spell damage. Where Proc Sets were more viable was in unoptimized PVE content such as Solo and Four-Man Dungeons.

Easy fix.

For solo and four man dungeons you would want thrassian stranglers, assuming that you don't die too often. In those cases Thrassian is better dps than the new kilt. The thrassian buff makes proc sets deal asinine amounts of damage for a stamina build, paired with Relequen its kind of nuts, while it makes magic build procs deal a decent amount. And it's a piece of light armor, so mages can get more out of it.

EpicHero

I just absolutely hate games where you are constantly being nerfed... it takes the fun out of everything.

Forcing people to dump their gear that they spend a lot of time and gold into upgrading, just because you make it useless on a whim, is the absolute opposite of fun.

Plus why would I upgrade any gear any more now... Who knows what you're gonna nerf next time.

Congratulations on making your own game obsolete.

Curious_Death

[snip]... rele live 355 > on pts 460 .. where is issue?


PS. i just popped potion and endless hail with berzerker enchant... 479... srsly where is that nerf ?
sometimes i feel like ppl posting "poop" here are not even downloaded PTS... its my live build... and i feel buff by ALOT.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Jazraena

Curious_Death wrote: »

[snip]... rele live 355 > on pts 460 .. where is issue?


PS. i just popped potion and endless hail with berzerker enchant... 479... srsly where is that nerf ?
sometimes i feel like ppl posting "poop" here are not even downloaded PTS... its my live build... and i feel buff by ALOT.

Instead of telling people to 'l2p' you might bother reading where, why, and in which situations the actual problem arises. Some random Relenquen numbers aren't really relevant to the concerns brought forward.

Tharonil

This only shows that the good players still have the"old" damage (or more) and only casuals or not min-maxer gets a nerf in damage. I don't know, if this is what the combat team was aiming for.

BalticBlues

Curious_Death wrote: »

[snip]... rele live 355 > on pts 460

[snip]

You show a STAM char. STAM char procs in many cases will be BUFFED.
Buffed even so absurdly that Stam chars achieve harder hitting Mag Procsets than Mag chars.
At the same time MAG chars will be nerfed hard, usually coming down to -50% proc damage.

The reasons for this incredible imbalance?
As OP correctly wrote in POST #1:

LeonAkando wrote: »

7.0.2 Changes:
Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478.
[...]
For StamDD, due to Medium Armor Passives, Fighter's Guild passives and more, this number is far more achievable than it is for MagDD. This is addresses one of the major grievances of this scaling change. If you are trying to balance both MagDD and StamDD at the same time you cannot with the same numbers.
[...]
A major grievance with this change is the existing imbalance in Proc Sets. Even with the old values in 7.0.0 PTS, Relenquens was doing well over double the damage of the second highest stamina Proc Set. When you let all sets scale equally, then you exacerbate the imbalance between sets. With 10k WD you could make some sets look okayish, instead of worthless, but then Relenquens is so busted that even MagDD run it for its crazy damage. Relequens is already one of the only proc sets that gets play, which shows you how much stronger it is than every other proc set in the game.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

D1Storm

I agree and strongly support the author of the post. To me, and most of my friends, the trajectory of the game is not clear. All that the average player sees is only weakening and weakening. The variability of the used sets, with their huge number, has never been the strong point of the game, now it will be completely killed. Champion system nerfs are another nail in the game's coffin: ZOS very often they began to take something away without offering anything new and effective. Endless game bugs (enemies shooting through walls or getting stuck in them), server instability, ping spikes on which sometimes prevent you from playing normally.Instead of focusing on such issues in all recent patch notes, I see an endless long canvas of satellite changes. Although who needs them, what benefit can they bring, besides cluttering up the backpack ?! Every year the company has fewer and fewer people who are able to listen and hear their community, and more and more ordinary sales managers. Only 3 factors keep me from the final goodbye to the game: the time spent, the money spent and the absence of my friends in the game in other projects that are more attractive to me. But I think the more such changes the game has to go through, the more likely it is to drag my comrades. 😉

ManDraKE

BalticBlues wrote: »

You show a STAM char. STAM char procs in many cases will be BUFFED.
Buffed even so absurdly that Stam chars achieve harder hitting Mag Procsets than Mag chars.
At the same time MAG chars will be nerfed hard, usually coming down to -50% proc damage.

is not 50%, not even close. If you make an investment in spell damage comparable to the investment needed to push 6.5k wpn damage, you will endup with less spell damage ofc, but the proc TOOLTIP is around -20% compared to live. The extra native penetration of light armor makes up for a some of that gap in damage

Stam proc still endup hitting harder than magika, but is not even close to a 50%, in most scenarios the proc DAMAGE (not tooltip) difference in stam vs magika pro is around 10/15% in most PvP builds (leaving meme and gank builds aside). You are pulling random numbers out of thin air, try testing things on PTS before going ham on the forums.

BalticBlues

ManDraKE wrote: »

is not 50%, not even close. [...] You are pulling random numbers out of thin air.

Sorry, but this is really simple math. Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values. All my LightArmor toons have lovely crit but only around 3xxx Spell Damage. So all my LA mag toons lose about -50% Proc damage. Proc sets now are dead for all LA mag crit builds. RIP.

This is just another example of ZOS' balancing with a sledgehammer.
PvP Stam players complain reasonably about a handful of proc sets
so ZOS hammers all proc sets for Crit PvE/PvP Mag players into Blackwood's Oblivion.

stefj68

this was a bandaid, and failed!
it should have been balanced with the battle spirit for pvp aspect

none of my healers have 39k magicka
none of my magicka dps have 6700 sd (unless in group with warhorn etc etc) but solo no way i sit around 3700
none of my stamina toons ave 39k stamina (unless i werewolf transmform)

so this is killing pve solo, tank solo
and place a bandaid for pvp

my 2 cents

ManDraKE

BalticBlues wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

is not 50%, not even close. [...] You are pulling random numbers out of thin air.

Sorry, but this is really simple math. Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values. All my LightArmor toons have lovely crit but only around 3xxx Spell Damage. So all my LA mag toons lose about -50% Proc damage. Proc sets now are dead for all LA mag crit builds. RIP.

This is just another example of ZOS' balancing with a sledgehammer.
PvP Stam players complain reasonably about a handful of proc sets
so ZOS hammers all proc sets for Crit PvE/PvP Mag players into Blackwood's Oblivion.

Is not simple math, well it is but you havent seen the formula and not tested the scaling on PTS. First of all you cant think of original values a clean sheet because with the original values magika proc hit harder because of the extra penetration (yes, on live magika procs hit harder in general), so your argument starting from the point that in live everything is balanced is wrong.
Then, i expplained that is not -50% proc damage, is not even -50% tooltip because the difference beetween spell and weapon damage is not 50%, medium armor only grants 2% extra wpn damage per piece and as max people runs 6 medium 1 heavy. As i said, the TOOLTIP differece is around 20% at worst, and the actual damage difference compared to stam is lower because of the extra pen.

You cant just think of your current build with 3k spell damage because that build wont work anymore, in the same way than my stamina builds with 4k weapon damage and 40k HP wont work neither. If i want to push 6.5k weapon damage i will have to make a new build focused around stacking weapon damage, that's why in my previous post my comparision started with " If you make an investment in spell damage comparable to the investment needed to push 6.5k wpn damage"

You havent tested ANYTHING on the PTS, and on top of that you are making arguments based on your current build (that is obsolete) compared to NEW stam builds that will invest a lot in pushing 6.5k wpn damage or more. You want your magika procs to hit harder while making 0 investment in spell damage with a medicore 3k, hitting harder than a stam build stacking 6.5k weapon damage, is ridiculous. The whole idea of these changes was to nerf proc stacking builds, that's why your build wont work anymore, you cant just rely on procs to play for you anymore, and that applies for stamina builds too.

Stop wasting your time on the forums with nonsense arguments and take the time to download the PTS and test stuff before spreading misinformation, i spent many hours on the PTS testing proc sets with a dozen or more different stamina/magika builds, you havent, and using BOLD to highlight your arguments dont make them correct.

stefj68 wrote: »

this was a bandaid, and failed!
it should have been balanced with the battle spirit for pvp aspect

none of my healers have 39k magicka
none of my magicka dps have 6700 sd (unless in group with warhorn etc etc) but solo no way i sit around 3700
none of my stamina toons ave 39k stamina (unless i werewolf transmform)

so this is killing pve solo, tank solo
and place a bandaid for pvp

you dont need those values to use the sets, those are just the break-even point compared to current live performance. You can be below that and they will still work and be useful, specially on casual PvE were min-maxing is not relevant.

BalticBlues

ManDraKE wrote: »

You cant just think of your current build with 3k spell damage because that build wont work anymore. [...] you are making arguments based on your current build (that is obsolete) compared to NEW stam builds

Exactly. That is the point.

Update 30 wrecks proc sets for CRIT damage builds - the builds most PvE Mag players prefer.
Update 30 boosts proc sets for RAW damage builds - the builds most PvP Stam players prefer.

Playing BOTH PvE and PvP with Mag and Stam, seeing both sides of the coin,
I cannot tell you how disgusted I am about this balance-wrecking patch.

ManDraKE

I took the time to explain everything on detail and THAT is what you quote? Why i even bother ...

The changes are for the game's health, not to cater to your particular build. Everyone will have to make new builds, both stamina and magika, dont come here to talk about balance when the only thing your care is your build. And next time, read the information that people that knows more about the game than you is sharing, instead of cryting nonsense arguments with no sense, 5 minutes of testing the PTS would show you that your "-50% less damage" is false.

BalticBlues

ManDraKE wrote: »

The changes are for the game's health, not to cater to your particular build. Everyone will have to make new builds. dont come here to talk about balance when the only thing your care is your build.

Sorry, but this patch is not about doing "new builds".
This patch is about destroying proc sets for crit builds.

In PvE, crit builds are everything (except for tanks)
so this patch kills proc sets for ambitious PvE players.

Of course this patch is not "to cater to my PvE crit builds".
This patch is to cater PvP raw damage builds.

Jazraena

ManDraKE wrote: »

I took the time to explain everything on detail and THAT is what you quote? Why i even bother ...

The changes are for the game's health, not to cater to your particular build. Everyone will have to make new builds, both stamina and magika, dont come here to talk about balance when the only thing your care is your build. And next time, read the information that people that knows more about the game than you is sharing, instead of cryting nonsense arguments with no sense, 5 minutes of testing the PTS would show you that your "-50% less damage" is false.

ESO likes to tell people to play the way they want. This was a pretty fair statement, all in all, for non-optimized PvE dungeon groups. It's an entirely different framework than trial groups or PvP, with different requirements.

Except this 'game health change' you flaunt now completely wrecks build diversity in that venue because nearly every proc set you equip is now a net DPS loss compared to yet another boring Mother's Sorrow / Medusa Setup. It's a hard nerf for magicka proc set users, and a still annoying one for many stam chars, and absolutely hilarious in how many sets it effectively removes from tanks and healers.

But we've laid this out over five pages, so maybe you could tone down the arrogance, and actually bother to read the thread.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

LightningWitch

NoSoup wrote: »

Once again sets are being "optimaized/balanced" around PVP rather than PVE.

Probably because ZoS spends so much money maintaining the PvP servers while 80% of its player base avoids it like the Knahaten plague they're now trying to push the agenda of "See?! PvP isn't so bad as no one can hurt you anymore! Come on in!"

This on top of the "free" PvP areas given to players, the recent uptick in the Foney Munny® handouts with the dailies, and other attempts shows ZoS wants their value for their investment back.

ZoS should have separated PvP and PvE years ago, [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Alendrin

LightningWitch wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

Once again sets are being "optimaized/balanced" around PVP rather than PVE.

Probably because ZoS spends so much money maintaining the PvP servers while 80% of its player base avoids it like the Knahaten plague they're now trying to push the agenda of "See?! PvP isn't so bad as no one can hurt you anymore! Come on in!"

This on top of the "free" PvP areas given to players, the recent uptick in the Foney Munny® handouts with the dailies, and other attempts shows ZoS wants their value for their investment back.

ZoS should have separated PvP and PvE years ago, [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Zos spends money maintaining the pvp server...lol, just lol.

exrei

Alendrin wrote: »

Zos spends money maintaining the pvp server...lol, just lol.

Ironically, PvP-only players are least likely to be spending money in the crown store or have a subscription. 😂

The_Lex

exrei wrote: »

Alendrin wrote: »

Zos spends money maintaining the pvp server...lol, just lol.

Ironically, PvP-only players are least likely to be spending money in the crown store or have a subscription. 😂

Yeah, I think the post you were responding to was sarcasm

exrei

The_Lex wrote: »

Yeah, I think the post you were responding to was sarcasm

But PvP-only players want a priority focus but aren't the ones generating revenue for ZOS? Yet, ZOS listens to them because they are the loudest? Weird.

The_Lex

exrei wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Yeah, I think the post you were responding to was sarcasm

But PvP-only players want a priority focus but aren't the ones generating revenue for ZOS? Yet, ZOS listens to them because they are the loudest? Weird.

That's an assumption based on what you read on the forums.

exrei

The_Lex wrote: »

That's an assumption based on what you read on the forums.

Correct. Discussing observations about discussions in forums in the forums.

Stevie6

I can tell from a lowbie perspective that spell damage in general is in a bad state. Proc sets are dead for magicka characters. Now that being said, I did notice a slight increase in sp damage via the CP trees. I have nearly 1200 cp and after redistributing the cp points once again, I went from about 8k dps to 12k dps on my magesorc. I’ll have to explain why I did my build in a non traditional way. I went with a tanky magesorc for solo play. So, by choice, I decided to have a bit less damage and penetration for survivability.

My spell damage after buffs is in the 3000k range as well as penetration. Using elemental drain will raise it but it’s on my bar as an optional skill. Going with a light armor setup for solo work isn’t a great option. Light armor needs a rework. Buff it for pve and nerf it in PvP. If I do a light armor build, it’s with Medusa, mother sorrow and monster sets illambris, grothdar, valkin skoria, or iceheart. Spell crit is between 58 to 64 and I only use crit surge for healing and no shields. With that setup, I usually get around 21k dps on world bosses but too squishy.

Maybe armor passives need to be changed out completely so as to not influence penetration or damage. Penetration and damage modifications need to be within class skills, weapon skills, guild skills, or reworked in the cp trees. Raising the floor didn’t happen in this patch...still in the basement lol.