7.0.2 Proc Set Changes & the Death of Proc Sets in PVE

Mionikoi

I had a thought. With the amount of nerfs on Tanks as well as Proc sets, could Companions be a way to off set the nerfs for Solo players?

Flamebait

That would be an idea however companions currently on the pts do less damage than live proc sets and die to overland trash so they are useless.

ghost_bg_ESO

Mionikoi wrote: »

I had a thought. With the amount of nerfs on Tanks as well as Proc sets, could Companions be a way to off set the nerfs for Solo players?

I highly doubt that. Companions, usable mannequins for houses, capes and couple other things were asked for long time more for aesthetic purposes and if next companions (buyable from crown store) give some bonus different from green CP tree - ZOS will be blamed for clear pay to win. Even at this point companions been dismissed in towns has more chance to draw back people compared to companions been useless at fights(see for reference companions specific discussions).

Edit:

But that discussion was more about proc sets at curent patch been even more useless in PvE outside of optimized groups and simple RP for flashy effects (especially for mag-dps and tanks) and how the floor lost another option to squeeze a bit of dps...

LeonAkando

Mionikoi wrote: »

I had a thought. With the amount of nerfs on Tanks as well as Proc sets, could Companions be a way to off set the nerfs for Solo players?

Unfortunately an entirely maxed out Damage Dealing Companion does less damage than a singular proc set. Regardless, tanks should be able to do respectable damage. It is profoundly strange to have damage dealers doing 20x the damage of a tank. I'm not suggesting we nerf DPS, but tanks should be able to bring some damage.

In most games, a tank does roughly ~25% of the damage of a DPS. Maybe that's a bit much for ESO. If tanks could do ~15% or so of their damage, that would make it feel more rewarding to play a tank as well as add to the ways tanks can min-max their performance.

universal_wrath

Tigertron wrote: »

I’m lost. Who is this targeting? Overpowered trial groups? The proc sets were removed from PvP I thought. If I understand correctly my Selen’s monster set is being nerfed? So I’m being hurt because 200 or so players can tromp through trails? And I care if if they do?

TBH I have not fully digested the impact but on the surface it looks like it’s going to be just a game for kids with nimble fingers now. Unless simple crafting and decorating your house is what you call fun.

I’m just glad there are some new MMOs coming soon.

This should give you an idea of how much of a nerf to proc sets next patch is.

https://youtu.be/4Uyo0E-jJ7A

Selene live server deals somewaht around 11,500, PTS on this videos deals 8,500 with about 5k Weapon damage. About 30% nerf in total. Obviously this is not fully buffed in the video because brairheart is not active and he has robust jewelry triat instead of infused to bump the weapon damage even higher, but you sacrifice max resoucres and even then he won't reach 6,5k and still at lower proc damage than in live server. Magicka specs need to sacrifice too much max magicka and crit to achieve 6,5k unlike stamina.

Jazraena

Even for Stamina 6574 weapon damage is mostly utopian outside of buff optimized parties unless you specifically stack it at the cost of other stuff - and the buff optimized parties tend not to run proc sets aside a very scarce few exceptions.

No, in PvE this is just a proc set deathblow.

jrgray93

When the first PTS round came up, I thought the numbers were too high. Naturally, they went higher with this update.

What the hell were they thinking?

luther_revan

This reminds me why I stopped playing a few years ago. Constant changes due to a pvp mode where I never go or YouTubers I never watch. The exact same issue that you find on every game mixing those two modes with the same gear, one mode with brainless bullet sponges enemies using OS mechanics and the other one fighting low HP people with somewhat of a brain.
I came back out of curiosity last year and had a ton of fun since with some casual tank built around proc sets, to heal my teammates or myself when grouped with a fake healer, or to help with damage during normal dungeons (or vet non dlc) and when solo questing.
What I really like in eso is the fact that your gear do not become useless after 3 month due to some level up. Moreover I found those sets way more fun to use than just dumb passive stat increase each new extension. It’s a bit sad that they reproduce what drove me out of all those mmo that abuse the gear/level obsolescence mechanics.
I decided that this time I’ll keep playing with whatever I like even if less efficient, luckily I don’t have time for endgame anymore XD
All that to say that they have a mechanic in place to separate pvp and pve, they should use it more (set restrictions, battle spirit), or even start to think about pvp specific gear.

Akynathos

I know the school of Mysticism has been folded into the other schools of magic but still, these changes mystify me.

Jokes aside, I just want to add my voice to the chorus. Plenty of number crunching has already been done in this post, so I shall refrain from doing any more of it and try to keep it short and sweet.

Approaching PvP problems with "The Sledgehammer" (tm) for PvP and PvE cannot be a long-term sustainable way to go.

PvP problems require PvP solutions. [insert meme here]

One of the major selling points of ESO is its diversity of (at least PvE) builds that are able to perform within reasonable boundaries.
So why introduce a change that will massively compromise that diversity for a very significant amount of game activity / player base?

I am a player who makes heavy use of proc sets. I like the visuals and the flavor they can add to my characters. But also because I find them to be way more interesting than flat stat increases, because they actively interact with my ability usage. I have to keep track of how and how often to proc them, so some of them even introduce a small skill element, compared to stuff like say - Mothers Sorrow.
I walk the line between my builds becoming obsolete in any slightly challenging content or loosing all flavor and diversity all together every major patch now and to be honest - I am quite sick and tired of it.
Now you introduce the most heavy-handed change to date.

And divines forbid I actually want to kill things as a tank within a reasonable time frame, be it alone or with a group.

Please reassess this approach ZOS.

Fuxo

It's very difficult to understand this move from ZOS after so many years of designing game mechanics. Why should proc sets depend on character's stats in any way? They should only depend on the quality/type of materials used. If there is a need to increase their potency, just create a new trait (potent) or make another trait do that. That way, there would be an actual choice - you either go for a more potent proc damage vs something else (divines, etc). There could even be skills altering the potency of proc sets. Tanks could actually use them for overland content without the need to change their stats. And the game would benefit from a variety of niche builds. The current design, unfortunately, guarantees the opposite.

LeonAkando

With the lack of changes in 7.0.3, it looks like this will go live and that's greatly depressing. A core feature of the game gutted for no consistent reason. I hope this doesn't cause irreversible damage.

Wolf_Eye

Maybe they're purposely trying to drive players away from proc sets because they were being used too much and causing too much strain on the servers with all the calculations? This would be a good idea to dissuade proc sets from being used entirely.

So....maybe the one good thing that will come of this is that we'll all have less lag. But seriously, they might as well get rid of all the proc sets if this was their goal; I'm sure deleting them from the servers will do even more wonders for performance when we aren't weighed down by all this extra data.

karekiz

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Maybe they're purposely trying to drive players away from proc sets because they were being used too much and causing too much strain on the servers with all the calculations? This would be a good idea to dissuade proc sets from being used entirely.

So....maybe the one good thing that will come of this is that we'll all have less lag. But seriously, they might as well get rid of all the proc sets if this was their goal; I'm sure deleting them from the servers will do even more wonders for performance when we aren't weighed down by all this extra data.

They did that with Cyrodiil

Cyrodiil lagged.

PvP lags

Because PvP lags. Blame the way they coded Cyrodiil

katorga

karekiz wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Maybe they're purposely trying to drive players away from proc sets because they were being used too much and causing too much strain on the servers with all the calculations? This would be a good idea to dissuade proc sets from being used entirely.

So....maybe the one good thing that will come of this is that we'll all have less lag. But seriously, they might as well get rid of all the proc sets if this was their goal; I'm sure deleting them from the servers will do even more wonders for performance when we aren't weighed down by all this extra data.

They did that with Cyrodiil

Cyrodiil lagged.

PvP lags

Because PvP lags. Blame the way they coded Cyrodiil

Even funnier, and more ironic, the current proc set plague started when they changed procs from RNG percentage chance to simple "when you do/take damage" conditions FOR PERFORMANCE.

PVP still lagged.

Remove procs entirely? PVP still lagged.

katorga

katorga wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Maybe they're purposely trying to drive players away from proc sets because they were being used too much and causing too much strain on the servers with all the calculations? This would be a good idea to dissuade proc sets from being used entirely.

So....maybe the one good thing that will come of this is that we'll all have less lag. But seriously, they might as well get rid of all the proc sets if this was their goal; I'm sure deleting them from the servers will do even more wonders for performance when we aren't weighed down by all this extra data.

They did that with Cyrodiil

Cyrodiil lagged.

PvP lags

Because PvP lags. Blame the way they coded Cyrodiil

Even funnier, and more ironic, the current proc set plague started when they changed procs from RNG percentage chance to simple "when you do/take damage" conditions FOR PERFORMANCE.

PVP still lagged.

Remove procs entirely? PVP still lagged.

And now the plan is to go to even more complicated computations to scale procs off ever changing stat values?

BlueRaven

Well the patch notes for 7.0.4 are up. No real combat changes that I saw. 🙁

Septimus_Magna

I would love an explanation why proc set scaling is the same for SD and WD (with up to 14% from medium armor passives).

Marcus_Thracius

So now we know what to expect to be live

colossalvoids

Yeah another patch without any distinctive vision that would be eventually scrapped next time opportunity comes

Akynathos

So I took the time to make a little comparison for my Lich flavour build. It took a long time to get it right and back in the day, when I farmed these sets, before the collection and some even before re-traiting was an option, getting that stuff was a lot of work.

Min-maxers will laugh at these numbers, but this was never supposed to be high end. It was supposed to be fun, while also able to do at least the basegame Veteran Hardmodes, so I can do my god damn pledges.

This is what is getting killed. Flavour builds. The mid-to-low performers. Diversity builds. The high-end will always adapt.

There is a reason I do not play WoW. It does not respect my time. It devalues my gear at least every major iteration. Just gonna say - this feels awfully familiar right now. Every major patch I have to change it up, re-trait, re-combine, farm new ***, to keep that minimum level of efficiency. I'm not even upset, I am just sad.



(I admit I just lazily screenshotted the tooltips without applying Major Sorcery, but it still speaks for itself. Looking at this is just defeating.)

BalticBlues

2019: ca. 75% STAM players in PvP
2020: ca. 85% STAM players in PvP
2021: ca. 95% STAM players in PvP

2019: Light Armor dead (except for Sorcs)
2020: Malacath damage boost for Heavy Armor
2021: Proc sets dead for Magicka, improved for Stam

How is that balancing?

ZOS, please demonstate to us in a video how a Light Armor player
is able to defend a flag 1:1 against a medium/heavy Stam player in 2021.
For my mag toons, this patch feels like another kick into the guts.

BalticBlues

Jazraena wrote: »

Wrong topic, Baltic.

I doubt it. Most PvE nerfs basically go back to PvP.
But PvP will become even MORE unbalanced next patch.
So where is the BRAINS in all that?

In PvE, pro players will just dump most magicka proc sets
while average players will become frustrated with their sets.
However, PvE still will work with useless magicka proc sets.

In PvP however, there will be carnage.
MagPlayers with their useless proc sets will be butchered.
MagPlayers in PvP can either go Stam or go extinct.

Result: PvE AND PvP will become MORE UNIFIED AND MORE BORING.

Akynathos

BalticBlues wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Wrong topic, Baltic.

However, PvE still will work with useless magicka proc sets.

The issue is, that it won't work with any kind of attractive build diversity. Hence the threads name "Proc set changes the death of proc sets in PVE".
Not saying the contribution is not valued, your conclusion is correct.

Jazraena

Of course this goes back to PvP. But the topic isn't about PvP, but the disastrous side effects this has in PvE. And not about the optimized trial groups that 'will still work' either.

This affects the people outside those optimized groups. Not just inexperienced learning players either, but the large number of people who simply can't expect their dungeon group to provide all the necessary buffs to get to that mythical trial performance, and design their characters within that framework. Our build diversity has always been much greater than in optimized groups - and for reasons beyond my understanding, ZOS seems hellbent on sacrificing that bastion of "Play the way you want".

And this doesn't only apply to magicka for us, either. Magicka DPS has it worse, but don't delude yourself that Stam DPS regularly reaches 6574 weapon damage self-buffed without prohibitive sacrifices in PvE. Tanks wanting to bring a bit of damage? Limited to a handful of proc sets that provided they stack far more health than you usually would in PvE. Healers have it the easiest with their max magicka stacking, but actual damage sets are off the map for them too.

That this makes the PvP situation even worse is tragic and adds insult to injury, but it's not really the point of this thread.

Anyron

Jazraena wrote: »

Of course this goes back to PvP. But the topic isn't about PvP, but the disastrous side effects this has in PvE. And not about the optimized trial groups that 'will still work' either.

This affects the people outside those optimized groups. Not just inexperienced learning players either, but the large number of people who simply can't expect their dungeon group to provide all the necessary buffs to get to that mythical trial performance, and design their characters within that framework. Our build diversity has always been much greater than in optimized groups - and for reasons beyond my understanding, ZOS seems hellbent on sacrificing that bastion of "Play the way you want".

And this doesn't only apply to magicka for us, either. Magicka DPS has it worse, but don't delude yourself that Stam DPS regularly reaches 6574 weapon damage self-buffed without prohibitive sacrifices in PvE. Tanks wanting to bring a bit of damage? Limited to a handful of proc sets that provided they stack far more health than you usually would in PvE. Healers have it the easiest with their max magicka stacking, but actual damage sets are off the map for them too.

That this makes the PvP situation even worse is tragic and adds insult to injury, but it's not really the point of this thread.

Trust me, its disastrous in pve, but gamebreaking in PvP..
The only problem from PvP side was that procsets did same damage on tank as on dd.. Noone asked for this
Nerf to battle spirit isnt really good option too because stamina can stack wp dmg way efficiently than magicka, also stamina need to only build for wd and stam regen for skills/dodge while magicka needs sd, mag regen and stam regen + max mag for shields

Jazraena

Which, again, is tragic and adds insult to injury because the supposed PvP fix for which we take this PvE nerf doesn't even fix anything in the game segment it's targeted at, but it really is not the point of this thread.

TankHealz2015

THIS:

"I am a player who makes heavy use of proc sets. I like the visuals and the flavor they can add to my characters. But also because I find them to be way more interesting than flat stat increases, because they actively interact with my ability usage. I have to keep track of how and how often to proc them, so some of them even introduce a small skill element, compared to stuff like say - Mothers Sorrow."

Lord_Imrhial

Yea, I haven't played played ESO in like 3 weeks now since the first wave of PTS notes came out. (and I was playing like 8+ hours a day up to this point)

It seems like ZoS is trying to handle an edge case (PvP Free Damage Tanks) by taking a sledge hammer to the entire combat system - as you can argue, that proc sets were basically a huge part of the combat system, right?

I am a tank main, and no, I don't expect to be able to PvP people all day in full tank gear, but I do expect to be able to try and survive or be annoying enough to get away from players and still be able to fight mobs and clear delves and such in PvP zones as PvP zones have parts of the story/solo content. Even when I tried to PvP (which was basically 2 tank sets + zaans) it was hard as heck to drop someone - any well-round or versed PvP'er could easily see my strat and just pause/reset then drop me.

But that's besides the point - the point is that solo Tanks (and I assume other roles) are straight up dying with these changes yet are somehow supposed to be able to do solo content and enjoy the game, right? Maybe ZoS expects everyone to have a main/maxed character in every role - and while I think its not a bad idea, I like being a tank and only a tank yet I still want to be able to do lot of content on my own if I wish.

Yet every few days as I log in and check the latest PTS notes I just see my character whither away more and more.

We are having what seems like sweeping changes for some edge-case (PvP-only) issues and it seems like such a reactive stance to someone dying to a tank in PvP or something. And now we are just blindly hacking away at stuff and "hoping" it works versus implementing a well-thought plan.

If ZoS really wants to try and whack away at random solutions - I think the safest way to start would at least be by having sets scale uniquely for PvE and PvP. They are very different scenarios yet we have to use the same tools for both - so while you widdle away at PvP you are mauling the life away at PvE accidentally on your conquest to perfect a probably complex solution for PvP combat.

Either way, I really really hope ZoS can find a good solution soon because I am starting to worry I won't go back into ESO with combat remaining like this

ericshug

Do you know how many dps will increase with more129 Spell Damage ?
and how many dps will increase with more 1096 Maximum Magicka ?
1096 Maximum Magicka dps= x Spell Damage dps?

Hurbster

As a predominantly solo player who enjoys monster sets not only for the use but also for flavour, I feel ZoS doesn't like me very much.