7.0.2 Proc Set Changes & the Death of Proc Sets in PVE

Rex-Umbra

This is the biggest balance failure from zos so far. As a tank Procs helped make the playstyle fun by adding cool effects and flavor and giving me some usefulness in pvp. I don't know if the game will even be fun anymore.

remosito

cheemers wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

And another kick in the teeth for my 6 casual pve tanks... (they all run proc sets when not tanking in groups which is 90% of the time)

I would be really pissed if I hadn't already decided that I am unwilling to further help pay the salaries of whoever is in charge at zos of such things (green tree mess, no cp scaling, "balance", no cp penalty limit upping for blackwood) ...just confirms my decision was the right one... (Really sorry for all the wonderful artsy people working there, they do a bank job..)

If something gets overused in one part of your game and underused in another part. You don't bloody nerf it on both sides. Ain't exactly rocket science.

Just run Baharas / Leeching / Tremorscale or whatever other procs now scale with HP or armor.

" But I want to use my set my way! "

Well... OK, do what you want. But the options are there if you want to maintain or improve your proc damage.

who wants to run around in heavy all day long.. or wear bahrahas curse light/medium on 6 chars...or stack armor/hp for anything but hardest solo stuff...

not me.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Actually for my pve builds proc sets will be stronger with this change than they are on live. On my "worst" healer (no max magicka bonus on gear apart from my dsa healing staff, no max magicka from class) I still have a bit over 40k magicka. And my dds are sitting at 7-7.5k spell damage depending on class (siroria + mothers sorrow + zaan setup with courage and sorcery buffs).

The big issue with scaling proc sets is the huge stat difference between players with good gear in organized groups and solo or casual players. I'm not sure what's the best way to solve that.
One way could be soft or hard caps on proc set scaling. Another way would be changing sets so they only work in specific content. So sets that work only in overworld and normal instances will require lower stats than sets that also work in vet instances or pvp. But both those fixes have some flaws or unwanted side effects.

JanTanhide

Tigertron wrote: »

I’m lost. Who is this targeting? Overpowered trial groups? The proc sets were removed from PvP I thought. If I understand correctly my Selen’s monster set is being nerfed? So I’m being hurt because 200 or so players can tromp through trails? And I care if if they do?

TBH I have not fully digested the impact but on the surface it looks like it’s going to be just a game for kids with nimble fingers now. Unless simple crafting and decorating your house is what you call fun.

I’m just glad there are some new MMOs coming soon.

No, this is because of PVP. All these proc set changes are due to PVP. Proc sets are returning to Cyrodil. PVE will suffer immensely.

Ocelot9x

Procset were never the meta in pve, so i don't see why the whole hardcore population must suffer because you lose a little bit on your "just for fun" build.
Of course, i would have handled the situation differently, like buffing procs by a lot for pve while almost destroying them thought battle spirit, but it is what it is and it will benefit the majority of "serious" players.

ghost_bg_ESO

fast update for who is concerned about proc-sets and pve on more CASUAL basis:

normal Darkshade 1 - Solo, CP should be around 800 if even distributed... tristat food, lightning staffs on magica, bow/bow on stamina, thief mundus on all (may be), not full divines.

mag sorc, dark elf (freshly leveled just before pts) - necropotence and lamia green and blue - boringly long but ok-sish.

stamden, wood elf - unfathomable and gryphon purple, gold weapons, pale, weapon damage enchantments - fun and bit more time on bosses.

magblade, breton - elemental succession and overwhelming surge purple, gold weapons, pale, spell damage - fun and even efficient.

magcro, high elf - mad tinkerer, 4 mother sorrow, grothrar or ilambris purple, gold weapons, pale, spell damage - fun and even efficient.

stamcro, orc - briar, venomous smite, selene purple, gold weapons, weapon damage - ok-sish.

*with or without pale doesn't make much of a difference...
* *if jewelry bloodthirsty or infused goes as equally good, but even original magica or stamina is not a problem...

Joy_Division

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

Halcyon_Kismet

I can't help but feel that these forums have a disproportional representation of overly vocal PVP players and the people responsible for balance are blind to this fact.

The minimum numbers are ridiculously high requiring in depth knowledge and specialization to achieve similar damage to live and is going to impact the new and inexperienced players the most. I honestly fear for the game when new players who don't know every detail or how to even get close to those numbers attempt to play after the patch and see their damage cut in half or maybe even further. Some may stick around, but I imagine many will call it quits which is bad news for the game.

To fix this, a couple of approaches could be utilized (or multiple):

1) Abandon this new system and simply add a modifier to PVP that reduces the damage of proc sets while addressing troublesome sets specifically. (A great simple solution mentioned by countless others that should solve the majority of the problems while not killing procs for PVE)

2) Add minimum and maximum values to the proc sets. For example, a proc cannot do less than 70% of its base value or more than 130%.

3) Just separate PVE and PVP. Will it take a lot of work? Absolutely, but this is likely the only way to make everybody happy and achieve any sort of true balance.

TLDR: Changes are terrible for PVE and are going to hurt your new customers the most.

Brederode

LeonAkando wrote: »

7.0.2 Changes:

Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478, resulting in approximately a 17% reduction.
Sets that use Magicka or Stamina now require 39,901 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 4% reduction.
Sets that use Health now require 43,968 to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 13% reduction.
Sets that use Physical or Spell Resistance now require 30,680 of either, up from 27,890, resulting in approximately a 9% reduction.

For the sake of the health of the game, for the sake of the fun of players, just separate the balancing of these two modes. PVP Players were critical of the removal of proc sets in Cyrodil because it took all build diversity out of the game, but PVE players also do not want Blackwood to be a large "No Proc Sets Allowed" in PVE content either.

The sad truth is that I highly doubt ZOS will read your post or even care about some of the main complaints players have regarding proc sets status in PvE as of the Blackwood Chapter if the current planned changes go live (spoiler: they will).

I play on PS so I am unable to test on the PTS, but from the things I have seen and read the current changes will most likely do the following when they go live with the Blackwood Chapter:

1) It will be a (slight) buff to min-maxers/top 10% of the players.

2) It will be a (big) nerf for the more casual players, those who don’t put all their attribute points into a single attribute (health, magicka, stamina) and those who don’t min-max their weapon/spell damage.

3) Hybrid and off-meta builds (“play however you want”) will most likely be “dead”. Which makes we wonder what even is the point now of shields, destruction staffs, one-handed, two-handed and bows dropping for the “new and improved” sets that will scale of health, magicka, stamina or restistances.

katorga

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

This would all be a LITTLE less bad if max stat and power were blended together, as they are in determining skill effectiveness. Scaling procs differently from how skills are scaled makes balancing almost impossible.

The proc scaling model only makes sense if they intend to scale ALL skills and abilities the same way.

Right now I can stack weapon damage, and just enough stam to sustain, and achieve the same damage/healing on skills as I would have with a even split between wd and stam, but my proc damage goes through the roof.

If they implement the scaling across the board, then I have to make choices. Do I want high healing, go more stam. Do I want max damage, then more wd/sd. That would really, really shake things up...no more doing everything equally well. What if a high Dizzy tooltip gimped your Vigor?....think about that. That would probably be the most balancing change they could make for pvp.

Either way, the fact that ZOS still had to directly nerf sets means their scaling model failed. If it worked, there would have been no need to directly nerf sets due to the scaling model.

Shantu

Joy_Division wrote: »

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

I don't PVP, but people have a right to complain. The real issue is how solutions continue to revolve around bringing a sledgehammer to do brain surgery.

All this feels pretty futile...like trying to reason with a brick wall.

Waffennacht

https://youtu.be/S0ijuz1joFQ

This WAS a pure proc build, a Tank essentially able to complete vet vateshran.

Ive had Many players tell me a build like this has immensely helped them through solo arenas.

It is NOT optimized for dealing damage; but it DOES make content possible for some players. Its a forgiving build that doesnt require spot on rotation and can take many hits caused by mistakes.

Builds like this are hurt and hurts many players that do similar builds.

(I do have a build that wont be hurt by the changes that will replace this)

Just wanted to point out that it DOES hurt PvE non optimized meta players

axi

Joy_Division wrote: »

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

To be honest whole proc redesigning started few patches ago because ZoS wanted to make procs stronger in PvE while ruining PvP balance in the procces.

the1andonlyskwex

axi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

To be honest whole proc redesigning started few patches ago because ZoS wanted to make procs stronger in PvE while ruining PvP balance in the procces.

I don't think the proc redesign changes were directed at making proc sets stronger in PvE. In most cases they just traded random proc chances for longer cooldowns, retaining similar overall power.

It seemed pretty clear at the time that the intent of the change was somehow performance related (which I suppose makes sense because random number generation can be somewhat CPU intensive, and has to be done server-side to prevent cheating).

The problem in PvP is that, without the random component, you can combine proc sets with a shared proc condition and have them reliably hit simultaneously, resulting in large bursts of damage (but unimpressive DPS).

TheBonesXXX

With some luck they'll make all the sets flat stats and procs will disappear in it's entirety.

katorga

axi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

To be honest whole proc redesigning started few patches ago because ZoS wanted to make procs stronger in PvE while ruining PvP balance in the procces.

Nope, it was to improve performance in Cyrodiil.

They removed the RNG conditions and replaced with simple, "on doing/taking damage" type condition plus a cool down. This resulted in instant burst as long as all your procs were off cool down. The ability to unload all those hits in one GCD is what made it strong. Overloading a GCD was more important in pvp than the amount of damage done.

The PVE damage remained the same. In fact every pure damage proc set was balanced around a ~2K dps metric.

The new scaling model actually has the potential to make proc sets viable in high end PVE, but thats already been nerfed b4 it even got out the door due to pvp concerns.

Fennwitty

Seems like the problem was "certain sets" and "in PvP".

As often is the case, the solution is "everything" and "everywhere."

xylena_lazarow

Joy_Division wrote: »

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

I didn't ruin PvE. I didn't ask for ZOS to do this. Not my patch notes...

etchedpixels

cheemers wrote: »

Just run Baharas / Leeching / Tremorscale or whatever other procs now scale with HP or armor.

" But I want to use my set my way! "

Well... OK, do what you want. But the options are there if you want to maintain or improve your proc damage.

Those sets are not easily available to most casual players. It used to be that you could put reasonable medium/light damage gear on a tank with a bit of stam or magicka and it was okay in overland/delves as a solo toon. That meant you could play a tanky character in PvE and tank dungeons with it.

The U28/29 heavy armour makes the tank role without or with lower CP really nasty - no CP to counter the movement penalties. U30 at this point makes the health based tank completely unusable for anything else in PvE.

There is a balance somewhere I am sure but I don't think the linear scaling and solving PvP problems by just making the numbers to use it ridiculous actually helps. A non linear return on the high end and maybe the low end would have been a far better fix so we'll have to see how it's tuned. Have to see how they tune it further.

Right now though as a tank I don't actually bother with tank builds any more. I just build a magicka dd with different CP arrangements, sword/board and shield spamming. It's not so good for some vet or many DLC but I'm no longer bothering to run them even with a dedicated tank because the rewards are not worth it, and for DLC the mess with transmute balance means half the time people just quit as soon as they see DLC anyway.

YandereGirlfriend

Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »

I can't help but feel that these forums have a disproportional representation of overly vocal PVP players and the people responsible for balance are blind to this fact.

The forum absolutely has a drastic over-representation of 1vX'er types who would truly be happiest being limited to playing only BGs between themselves and the same 11 other similar players all using the same 19 boring sets forever and ever and ever.

And it is those players that are catered to again and again, to the detriment of the overall game.

It's never healthy to balance for the narrow interests of the 0.001%. But from ZOS' perspective, they just want people to stop yelling at them on the forums and to stop making click-baity YouTube videos that inspire their followers to pick up their pitchforks.

karekiz

I member when people said to remove procs from PvP because it caused LAG and the ONLY fix to it was remove procs to fix LAG.

Now were reintroducing procs with scaling system that the entire system has to do MORE checks on EACH piece of gear and nobody is saying anything.


KEK mutha W.

the1andonlyskwex

karekiz wrote: »

I member when people said to remove procs from PvP because it caused LAG and the ONLY fix to it was remove procs to fix LAG.

Now were reintroducing procs with scaling system that the entire system has to do MORE checks on EACH piece of gear and nobody is saying anything.


KEK mutha W.

Well, completely removing proc sets didn't seem to help with lag, so I don't think that's a consideration anymore.

Septimus_Magna

Rureczka wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The changes wont affect mag DDs too much, only Zaan dmg is reduced if you dont use Siroria. For stam DDs Relequen is indeed buffed for most specs but its only single target dmg which can fall off in some fights so it is a strong set but with a heavy disadvantage.

I would never say they're buffing relequen. Currently on pts it has 40% less dps than on live which is laughable. But that's not all. While it would seem that Staminas thanks to rele should have higher single target dps, they still fall short to the Magickas. How logical is even that? Seems they can't stop slaughtering the Stamina pve.

Isnt Relequen still bugged on the PTS? Most stam builds run more than 6.5k WD fully buffed so Relequen should deal more dps than on live. I do agree its plain wrong stam builds with Relequen still dont outperform mag builds which dont have their single target dps limited to one target.

Grandchamp1989

All these patch notes are showing me time and time again that ESO is being balanced based on PVP.

It seems every patch the fun factor, for PVE, is decreased and punished. And if you're a Tank you're basicly shoe horned into a trial setup at this point.
Tanks lost two more Heavy Armor sets this PTS patch due to PVP balance. And we lost the healing proc sets we used before. Devs seem to want tanks to do no damage and barely be able to heal themselves, or the group. Just be a stationary buff-bot. That will make the role super attractive for sure!

Pen down for Stam users makes no sense... Again we're in a situation where groups are shoe horned into bringing tremorscale and alkosh/Torugs if they want to bring their stam buddy with them.

6.5k spell dmg for mag users.... They're known for having higher ressource pool while stam users have higher dmg.pool so not sure why they balance proc sets equal for stam and magicka...

Monsters sets just use two 1 pieces until the devs notice we do it and they nerf the 1 piece aswell.....

Diversity goes out the window. Tanks use the same 4-5 trials sets. And all Stam and magicka use the same crit stacking mother's sorrow clones. Diversity goes out the window.

All of this makes perfect sense if you want to balance the game for PVP, but these nerfs and shoe horns makes the game far less enjoyable for me, personly. I love the game but, for me, the last 3 patches have made me a sad panda in regards to the game.

cheemers

remosito wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

And another kick in the teeth for my 6 casual pve tanks... (they all run proc sets when not tanking in groups which is 90% of the time)

I would be really pissed if I hadn't already decided that I am unwilling to further help pay the salaries of whoever is in charge at zos of such things (green tree mess, no cp scaling, "balance", no cp penalty limit upping for blackwood) ...just confirms my decision was the right one... (Really sorry for all the wonderful artsy people working there, they do a bank job..)

If something gets overused in one part of your game and underused in another part. You don't bloody nerf it on both sides. Ain't exactly rocket science.

Just run Baharas / Leeching / Tremorscale or whatever other procs now scale with HP or armor.

" But I want to use my set my way! "

Well... OK, do what you want. But the options are there if you want to maintain or improve your proc damage.

who wants to run around in heavy all day long.. or wear bahrahas curse light/medium on 6 chars...or stack armor/hp for anything but hardest solo stuff...

not me.

Well, then run a medium or light proc set and stack into your damage! You said you were a casual pve tank so I suggested the options that might best suit you. Do whatever you want, the options are all there lol.

karekiz

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

With some luck they'll make all the sets flat stats and procs will disappear in it's entirety.

I agree Relequin has been a problem set in PvE for awhile now.

Anonx31st

I agree. My 7 tanks are about to just go back to DPS for the flavor of the month/year builds. Why should I be punished for doing extra work by tanking in pugs with all these nerfs and have to even pay respec costs if I want to play my chars in overland.

katorga

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »

I can't help but feel that these forums have a disproportional representation of overly vocal PVP players and the people responsible for balance are blind to this fact.

The forum absolutely has a drastic over-representation of 1vX'er types who would truly be happiest being limited to playing only BGs between themselves and the same 11 other similar players all using the same 19 boring sets forever and ever and ever.

And it is those players that are catered to again and again, to the detriment of the overall game.

It's never healthy to balance for the narrow interests of the 0.001%. But from ZOS' perspective, they just want people to stop yelling at them on the forums and to stop making click-baity YouTube videos that inspire their followers to pick up their pitchforks.

I bet ZOS ends up with 19 sets in PVP forever. Which will result in.....wait for it.....Nerf Sorc threads.

ZOS_GregoryV

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Starlock

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I'm not convinced proc sets were ever really seriously important in PVE. There's maybe two or three you see in endgame comps (at least one of which is still getting buffed as far as I've tested it) but for the most part this is an imaginary or at least a purely hypothetical loss.

It IS fair to say that there was a missed opportunity to make proc sets viable in PVE. That's a legitimate point. Sorta. It's ignoring that even with the nerfs a lot of these sets are still pretty overtuned in both game modes, that it actually should be an expectation that you'll be relying on specialized player roles in endgame PVE anyway, and finally, that most of the sets are still perfectly viable for casual overland play even if you can't proc down a boss while AFK.

But yes, I agree they could have probably balanced it more intentionally by somehow separating the game modes at least as far as proc sets are concerned.

The problem is that proc sets are currently good, but not meta, for the PvE content that casual and semi-casuals players do (e.g. overland, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, normal trials). With these changes, proc sets will go from being good for those players to being totally worthless. For example, my DK healer is currently using Overwhelming Surge for sustain, but because he only has 3700 SD, it's getting a 40% nerf in u30.

...

This is gear that was already non-meta in PvE. It just doesn't make sense to nerf it so heavily, and in a way that hits the people who need nerfs the least the hardest.

No, it doesn't make sense at all.

I've never outright raged at proposed changes before and I've raged hard at this (and have deleted posts to prove it). I will not play this game at all anymore of this goes live. I'd been thinking about quitting permanently anyway, but changes like this that ruin the fun of the game will certainly push it over the edge.

I follow the roleplayer's meta - use what fits the character. Proc set effects have been a huge part of defining my characters since they've been a thing. Previously, the game has been very flexible in allowing me to do this while also designing characters to be able to complete some of the more difficult content in the game. But I don't min/max, so a good chunk of my power comes from CP (getting nerfed) and proc sets (getting seriously nerfed) which paints a very bleak picture for players like me. I refuse to change out these sets (roleplayer's meta has far less flexibility in gear changes) so instead my characters will just suck. I either won't be able to clear content I used to be able to clear, or it'll be far more tedious and unfun than it needs to be.

And for what? What is this even for?