7.0.2 Proc Set Changes & the Death of Proc Sets in PVE

Grandchamp1989

Starlock wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I'm not convinced proc sets were ever really seriously important in PVE. There's maybe two or three you see in endgame comps (at least one of which is still getting buffed as far as I've tested it) but for the most part this is an imaginary or at least a purely hypothetical loss.

It IS fair to say that there was a missed opportunity to make proc sets viable in PVE. That's a legitimate point. Sorta. It's ignoring that even with the nerfs a lot of these sets are still pretty overtuned in both game modes, that it actually should be an expectation that you'll be relying on specialized player roles in endgame PVE anyway, and finally, that most of the sets are still perfectly viable for casual overland play even if you can't proc down a boss while AFK.

But yes, I agree they could have probably balanced it more intentionally by somehow separating the game modes at least as far as proc sets are concerned.

The problem is that proc sets are currently good, but not meta, for the PvE content that casual and semi-casuals players do (e.g. overland, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, normal trials). With these changes, proc sets will go from being good for those players to being totally worthless. For example, my DK healer is currently using Overwhelming Surge for sustain, but because he only has 3700 SD, it's getting a 40% nerf in u30.

...

This is gear that was already non-meta in PvE. It just doesn't make sense to nerf it so heavily, and in a way that hits the people who need nerfs the least the hardest.

No, it doesn't make sense at all.

I've never outright raged at proposed changes before and I've raged hard at this (and have deleted posts to prove it). I will not play this game at all anymore of this goes live. I'd been thinking about quitting permanently anyway, but changes like this that ruin the fun of the game will certainly push it over the edge.

I follow the roleplayer's meta - use what fits the character. Proc set effects have been a huge part of defining my characters since they've been a thing. Previously, the game has been very flexible in allowing me to do this while also designing characters to be able to complete some of the more difficult content in the game. But I don't min/max, so a good chunk of my power comes from CP (getting nerfed) and proc sets (getting seriously nerfed) which paints a very bleak picture for players like me. I refuse to change out these sets (roleplayer's meta has far less flexibility in gear changes) so instead my characters will just suck. I either won't be able to clear content I used to be able to clear, or it'll be far more tedious and unfun than it needs to be.

And for what? What is this even for?

This post seems like a great example of "Lowering the ceiling while raising the floor" not having the intended effect......

Faylestar

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The problem is that proc sets are currently good, but not meta, for the PvE content that casual and semi-casuals players do (e.g. overland, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, normal trials). With these changes, proc sets will go from being good for those players to being totally worthless. For example, my DK healer is currently using Overwhelming Surge for sustain, but because he only has 3700 SD, it's getting a 40% nerf in u30.

I'm pretty sure this sort of thing is typical for casuals like me. We don't have the time/resources to upgrade all of our gear to legendary and re-trait/re-enchant all of our jewelry, and those are just the bare minimum to even begin approaching the 7.0.0 thresholds. To actually hit those thresholds, you also need a few other SD/WD sources (like melee weapons, swords, a SD/WD mundus stone, or a SD/WD race). Now, I'm not even sure I can hit the 7.0.2 threshold without 2-3 people showering me in buffs.

This is gear that was already non-meta in PvE. It just doesn't make sense to nerf it so heavily, and in a way that hits the people who need nerfs the least the hardest.

Pretty much this.

I run Mad Tinkerers on my pd/overland Mag farm character because losing a small amount of damage is an ok trade for picking up an ae stun.

The damage that set is doing is down 20-40% on PTS now, because you dont need nor expect to have every damage buff, and youre certainly not running a flat damage mundus, and you arent running infused rings, because those dont change the number of skills you need per giant pull.

Similarly, the "use these while you get better gear because you can get them dirt cheap" sta sets; Ashen Grip, Way of fire, Unfathomable Darkness, are losing 20-30% of their already only-competitive-at-fresh-160 damage , and other proc-based sets that are a standard for the pre "i farmed the stuff i need from vet dungeons" like Briarheart, are worse as well.


Its pretty zzz to just suggest going Mom + Julianos or Briar + hunding on every fresh 160 (though stamplars can swap one for deadly, woooooo! excitement!) regardless of what they want to do, what class they are, what buttons they want to press, or anything else, but thats where we're headed.

ExistingRug61

Joy_Division wrote: »

For once I agree with PvE players being mad at PvP for ruining their stuff.

It's not just PvE players - as a (now) primarily PvP player I'm annoyed to.
Not because I want procs to stay too strong in PvP, but rather I heavily sympathise with PvE players who were using them for whatever reason, role play, thematic builds, off meta builds. Its not what I really do anymore, but that sort of thing is what got me into this game, and I remember it fondly.

Sure, proc sets were an issue in PvP (and I have previously made comments on that topic myself), but these changes just ruin part of the fun of the game. Proc sets add interest, fun, unique ideas and flair to player's characters. The game needs that.

While I don't really like the idea of a battle spirit debuff specific for procs because it seems arbitrary and I would prefer if some way a better result could be achieved within the existing mechanics of the game, if that's what has to be done to a least give procs a chance at being useful in PvE then sure. Do whatever needs to be done to keep the fun in PvE.

Zer0_CooL

Sadly changes were made to please a loud minority, the PvP players.

remosito

cheemers wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

And another kick in the teeth for my 6 casual pve tanks... (they all run proc sets when not tanking in groups which is 90% of the time)

I would be really pissed if I hadn't already decided that I am unwilling to further help pay the salaries of whoever is in charge at zos of such things (green tree mess, no cp scaling, "balance", no cp penalty limit upping for blackwood) ...just confirms my decision was the right one... (Really sorry for all the wonderful artsy people working there, they do a bank job..)

If something gets overused in one part of your game and underused in another part. You don't bloody nerf it on both sides. Ain't exactly rocket science.

Just run Baharas / Leeching / Tremorscale or whatever other procs now scale with HP or armor.

" But I want to use my set my way! "

Well... OK, do what you want. But the options are there if you want to maintain or improve your proc damage.

who wants to run around in heavy all day long.. or wear bahrahas curse light/medium on 6 chars...or stack armor/hp for anything but hardest solo stuff...

not me.

Well, then run a medium or light proc set and stack into your damage! You said you were a casual pve tank so I suggested the options that might best suit you. Do whatever you want, the options are all there lol.

guess what I have been running?

guess whether thise med/light proc sets will get buffed or nerfed when I wear them with current changes on pts.

Merforum

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

All these patch notes are showing me time and time again that ESO is being balanced based on PVP.

It seems every patch the fun factor, for PVE, is decreased and punished. And if you're a Tank you're basicly shoe horned into a trial setup at this point.
Tanks lost two more Heavy Armor sets this PTS patch due to PVP balance. And we lost the healing proc sets we used before. Devs seem to want tanks to do no damage and barely be able to heal themselves, or the group. Just be a stationary buff-bot. That will make the role super attractive for sure!

Pen down for Stam users makes no sense... Again we're in a situation where groups are shoe horned into bringing tremorscale and alkosh/Torugs if they want to bring their stam buddy with them.

6.5k spell dmg for mag users.... They're known for having higher ressource pool while stam users have higher dmg.pool so not sure why they balance proc sets equal for stam and magicka...

Monsters sets just use two 1 pieces until the devs notice we do it and they nerf the 1 piece aswell.....

Diversity goes out the window. Tanks use the same 4-5 trials sets. And all Stam and magicka use the same crit stacking mother's sorrow clones. Diversity goes out the window.

All of this makes perfect sense if you want to balance the game for PVP, but these nerfs and shoe horns makes the game far less enjoyable for me, personly. I love the game but, for me, the last 3 patches have made me a sad panda in regards to the game.

Yes this is true. I was willing to look at the good side and test the 7.0 PTS changes and give them the benefit of the doubt. The scaling was super bad but as a NON-min/maxer who plays lots of fun sets, I was willing to take a HUGE nerf to my DPS from like 20-25 to 15-20, but the 7.0.2 changes are OFF THE RAIL less than 10K DPS on same build, it is insane.

Also I tested the PTS past 2 days, not only are ALL fun sets nerfed into the ground, but the system is completely unstable. It is logging my out within 10 minutes of playing. I fight an overland clanfgear, boss, or dungeon mob, and every 10 minutes I see a login screen, and have to relogin over and over. Can't even fully test anything. BTW this was without companion even out.

PTS 7.0.2 is a dumpster fire. The proc sets were NEVER a big problem in any regard but there were a million ways to fix it and they picked the worst of anything I could imagine. My fix for crimson what to change the DELAY to 3-4 sec, which would be perfectly fine for PVE and make it even more useless in PVP.

Someone had said that the best way to fix the proc sets for PVP would have been to add a proc cooldown, where multiple could not go off in the same sec, only 1 per sec, and maybe if one goes off by LA it could only proc 1 at a time, you'd have to do a second LA to get the second proc. Also even better than that what about adding LA to the GCD so you can't proc sets that fast also.

The current changes and state of PTS is so bad right now, if this goes live I can see people not just quitting for a while but uninstalling. It's that bad.

BalticBlues

Merforum wrote: »

The current changes and state of PTS is so bad right now, if this goes live I can see people not just quitting for a while but uninstalling. It's that bad.

I will not quit, but I wonder why we should buy any DLC from now on?
If all DLC sets finally end up as underperforming garbage, at least for Magicka,
crafted + overland sets will be good enough for PvP and all non-trial PvE content.

zvavi

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Just see the posts complaining about Mad Tinkerer to confirm.

Fudge mad tinkerer. When u separate PvE. And PvP, plz nerf it to oblivion in PvE.

StarOfElyon

zvavi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Just see the posts complaining about Mad Tinkerer to confirm.

Fudge mad tinkerer. When u separate PvE. And PvP, plz nerf it to oblivion in PvE.

This dang set has interrupted so many opportunities for me to drop an ultimate on a gang of people it's crazy.

Vaoh

Battle Spirit can:
- Enable/disable proc set crits
- Change proc set damage scaling

So why don’t they allow proc sets to Crit in PvE? Why don’t they drastically increase the damage at which proc sets scale to in PvE?

It’s legit an easy issue to fix. Smh

Chilly-McFreeze

Vaoh wrote: »

Battle Spirit can:
- Enable/disable proc set crits
- Change proc set damage scaling

So why don’t they allow proc sets to Crit in PvE? Why don’t they drastically increase the damage at which proc sets scale to in PvE?

It’s legit an easy issue to fix. Smh

While we're at it, why don't they let specifc dmg increasing sets (swamp raider, war maiden, sun, automaton) count towards the corresponding dmg type proc set scaling?

YandereGirlfriend

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

While we're at it, why don't they let specifc dmg increasing sets (swamp raider, war maiden, sun, automaton) count towards the corresponding dmg type proc set scaling?

Someone had mentioned that they actually do.

I have not tested it personally though so I cannot confirm it. Perhaps someone else can.

Merforum

BalticBlues wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

The current changes and state of PTS is so bad right now, if this goes live I can see people not just quitting for a while but uninstalling. It's that bad.

I will not quit, but I wonder why we should buy any DLC from now on?
If all DLC sets finally end up as underperforming garbage, at least for Magicka,
crafted + overland sets will be good enough for PvP and all non-trial PvE content.

Yeah Stam was already way overtuned for PVP, now the damage stackers will not only have every stam proc set available to them but also all mag proc sets. Meanwhile in PVE NO min/maxer wears proc sets, ONLY mid level solo/DPS/hybrid who like theorycrafting who know they are taking a huge hit on DPS ALREADY but willing to do it for fun, but if these changes go through (proc DPS will be SO LOW) EVERYONE will be wearing ONLY medusa/MS, it will be great for my inventory but NOT fun.

And I was hoping that companion DPS would fill the gap but fully maxxed out they do at most 3-4K DPS, and as dedicated healer they are slightly better than pale order ring, as tank they are much worse than sorc clanfear. 7.0 had some interesting stuff and some really bad stuff (scaling procs) but OK, 7.0.2 made all the bad stuff worse and didn't do anything to tweak the interesting stuff. ZOS must stop catering to PVP 1vX players.

TipsyDrow

Start speaking with your purses and wallets folks. Money is the best form of communication when dealing with companies. I personally have not for months and will not ever again spend a dime on ESO until they-
1-Fix performance in cyrodiil.
2-Fix the useless skills on every class
3-Seperate PVP balance from PVE balance

Chilly-McFreeze

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

While we're at it, why don't they let specifc dmg increasing sets (swamp raider, war maiden, sun, automaton) count towards the corresponding dmg type proc set scaling?

Someone had mentioned that they actually do.

I have not tested it personally though so I cannot confirm it. Perhaps someone else can.

Quick checked on PTS. Swamp Rider + Velidreth does not add 5p to tooltip

YandereGirlfriend

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

While we're at it, why don't they let specifc dmg increasing sets (swamp raider, war maiden, sun, automaton) count towards the corresponding dmg type proc set scaling?

Someone had mentioned that they actually do.

I have not tested it personally though so I cannot confirm it. Perhaps someone else can.

Quick checked on PTS. Swamp Rider + Velidreth does not add 5p to tooltip

That's definitely good information but did you try whacking the dummy?

The tooltip might miss the update but the damage could still be increased.

IIRC, the person who reported earlier had been using War Maiden and one of the Magic Damage proc sets.

GlassHalfFull

StarOfElyon wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Just see the posts complaining about Mad Tinkerer to confirm.

Fudge mad tinkerer. When u separate PvE. And PvP, plz nerf it to oblivion in PvE.

This dang set has interrupted so many opportunities for me to drop an ultimate on a gang of people it's crazy.

In the past this set has been wonderful on my storage-mule-crafting-harvester non-combat toon I hope they don't change it. lol

Jazraena

I don't really post here. Not at all, in fact - I've (not so) patiently waited my 30 hours for a forum invite code because of this and another issue with Blackwood.

So, Hi. I'm Jaz. I don't do PvP. I don't do trials. I do Roleplaying, Overland, Dungeons, Vet Dungeons, and yes, Vet Dungeon Hardmodes. I know plenty other people like me. You know what most of us never see? These mythical optimized "In PvE Groups you have Buff X, Y and get support A, B and C" situations. Even when I do Hardmode Vets people tend to bring what they want, and not necessarily the perfect tool for the job.

The result? I don't really expect much beyond the tank delivering Major Breach, and that's what I gear around, and that approach usually brings me to parity with a 'proper' Trial DPS build on my DPS chars - at least in the wild west environment I operate in. It's cool. It's especially cool because, as you can figure given the topic and my like for roleplaying, I tend to make flavourful builds. I have specific character concepts and power fantasy ideas. It's fun taking those concepts and turn it into something competitive in the type of content I enjoy. "Play the way you want" works for me surprisingly often.

One of the tools to make that work are proc sets. They're competitive enough outside of those optimized groups, and they often have awesome visuals (Hi Flame Blossom, my newest acquisition) that really deliver on mentioned power fantasy vision.

Make no mistake however - I expect my characters to be good enough. I don't just fool around for the lolz. This proc set scaling? It will eliminate that. The idea of maintaining them on tanks - where I really want them in Pugs for obvious reasons - is hilarious, but they're even disappointing on my DPS chars, and I use procs on every single one of them. One of them uses three counting the monster set. I keep reading how 'easy' it is for Stam to reach 6574 weapon damage. News-flash - it isn't. Self-buffed, sans that illusionary perfect trial setup you can be happy to reach 6000 even on a Dunmer unless you specifically stack it at the cost of other stats. Most likely however it will be less if you actually dedicate a 5 piece to a proc, as opposed to just a weapon or monster set. And magicka has it even worse, obviously.

To add insult to injury, we also get significant nerfs to Blade Cloak and Merciless Charge, further cementing that as proper Stam DPS you really should have a Bow Backbar. You're killing build diversity, and I'm not talking about PvP or Trials, but about the far larger segment of non-optimized dungeon runners where you actually could claim your "Play the way you want" Approach worked.

And why? Because, apparently, Proc Sets are an issue in PvP. Okay, fair. If that's the case, tweak. However, nerfing abilities, sets or anything else by 33% or even more is not a tweak, but an admission of failure. Nerfing a massive number of gear sets to fix one gamemode while they're already okay to underpowered in another unrelated gamemode is not a solution.

It's a slap in the face for anyone partaking in the latter. It sends a message that we and our enjoyment, somehow, are less important. That this solution doesn't even actually solve the issues as evidenced by the follow on sledgehammer 'tweaks' only adds insult to injury.

So please, ZOS. Stop completely overthrowing the entire game for us every major patch. Many of us are not even close to done refarming and retraiting for all our chars since the major changes before the last one. And most of those changes originate squarely within PvP Rebalancing.

PvP players are extremely competitive, and have entirely different requirements than trial groups, and entirely different requirements than dungeon runners. They will always manage to find superefficient combinations that you haven't thought of. Every patch, every big change, all you're doing is shifting what those combinations will be. It will never stop. And every time you try, you will anger players that are completely unaffected and often oblivious to the issues you supposedly are fixing, no matter if it worked or not.

Separate PvP from PvE balance. It cannot be maintained as one unified whole. Give gear, skills, everything different effects, and stop ruining everyone's characters every few months for the sake of an unreachable dream.

I'm not going to pretend I will unsubscribe. I need my subscription for a variety of things. But this goes live? I'll probably just shelf most chars I don't actively RP with. Keep a single tank and healer in a more standardized build around to only use with my friends - where I know there to be enough damage to maintain my sanity - and limit myself to a handful of DPS so I don't have to run the nearly exact same setup on almost all of them. Every char I don't play I won't spend my crowns on.

And I feel you'll find many like me will consider the same.

katorga

Vaoh wrote: »

Battle Spirit can:
- Enable/disable proc set crits
- Change proc set damage scaling

So why don’t they allow proc sets to Crit in PvE? Why don’t they drastically increase the damage at which proc sets scale to in PvE?

It’s legit an easy issue to fix. Smh

We don't actually know how battlespirit integrates with the game engine and what it is actually capable of doing. It seems to be a straight buff/debuff added to character. I don't think it can actually alter formulas as opposed to altering a variable.

Lord only knows how ZOS technically implemented proc set scaling......I can only imagine what sort of computational load it is going to add to the pvp servers.

Jazraena wrote: »

I don't really post here. Not at all, in fact - I've (not so) patiently waited my 30 hours for a forum invite code because of this and another issue with Blackwood.

So, Hi. I'm Jaz. I don't do PvP. I don't do trials. I do Roleplaying, Overland, Dungeons, Vet Dungeons, and yes, Vet Dungeon Hardmodes. I know plenty other people like me.........

.......Separate PvP from PvE balance. It cannot be maintained as one unified whole. Give gear, skills, everything different effects, and stop ruining everyone's characters every few months for the sake of an unreachable dream.

There is a real easy way to separate pvp from pve balance, and they already implemented it....disable fifth piece proc in pvp. .

Merforum

Jazraena wrote: »

I don't really post here. Not at all, in fact - I've (not so) patiently waited my 30 hours for a forum invite code because of this and another issue with Blackwood.

So, Hi. I'm Jaz. I don't do PvP. I don't do trials. I do Roleplaying, Overland, Dungeons, Vet Dungeons, and yes, Vet Dungeon Hardmodes. I know plenty other people like me. You know what most of us never see? These mythical optimized "In PvE Groups you have Buff X, Y and get support A, B and C" situations. Even when I do Hardmode Vets people tend to bring what they want, and not necessarily the perfect tool for the job.

The result? I don't really expect much beyond the tank delivering Major Breach, and that's what I gear around, and that approach usually brings me to parity with a 'proper' Trial DPS build on my DPS chars - at least in the wild west environment I operate in. It's cool. It's especially cool because, as you can figure given the topic and my like for roleplaying, I tend to make flavourful builds. I have specific character concepts and power fantasy ideas. It's fun taking those concepts and turn it into something competitive in the type of content I enjoy. "Play the way you want" works for me surprisingly often.

One of the tools to make that work are proc sets. They're competitive enough outside of those optimized groups, and they often have awesome visuals (Hi Flame Blossom, my newest acquisition) that really deliver on mentioned power fantasy vision.

Make no mistake however - I expect my characters to be good enough. I don't just fool around for the lolz. This proc set scaling? It will eliminate that. The idea of maintaining them on tanks - where I really want them in Pugs for obvious reasons - is hilarious, but they're even disappointing on my DPS chars, and I use procs on every single one of them. One of them uses three counting the monster set. I keep reading how 'easy' it is for Stam to reach 6574 weapon damage. News-flash - it isn't. Self-buffed, sans that illusionary perfect trial setup you can be happy to reach 6000 even on a Dunmer unless you specifically stack it at the cost of other stats. Most likely however it will be less if you actually dedicate a 5 piece to a proc, as opposed to just a weapon or monster set. And magicka has it even worse, obviously.

To add insult to injury, we also get significant nerfs to Blade Cloak and Merciless Charge, further cementing that as proper Stam DPS you really should have a Bow Backbar. You're killing build diversity, and I'm not talking about PvP or Trials, but about the far larger segment of non-optimized dungeon runners where you actually could claim your "Play the way you want" Approach worked.

And why? Because, apparently, Proc Sets are an issue in PvP. Okay, fair. If that's the case, tweak. However, nerfing abilities, sets or anything else by 33% or even more is not a tweak, but an admission of failure. Nerfing a massive number of gear sets to fix one gamemode while they're already okay to underpowered in another unrelated gamemode is not a solution.

It's a slap in the face for anyone partaking in the latter. It sends a message that we and our enjoyment, somehow, are less important. That this solution doesn't even actually solve the issues as evidenced by the follow on sledgehammer 'tweaks' only adds insult to injury.

So please, ZOS. Stop completely overthrowing the entire game for us every major patch. Many of us are not even close to done refarming and retraiting for all our chars since the major changes before the last one. And most of those changes originate squarely within PvP Rebalancing.

PvP players are extremely competitive, and have entirely different requirements than trial groups, and entirely different requirements than dungeon runners. They will always manage to find superefficient combinations that you haven't thought of. Every patch, every big change, all you're doing is shifting what those combinations will be. It will never stop. And every time you try, you will anger players that are completely unaffected and often oblivious to the issues you supposedly are fixing, no matter if it worked or not.

Separate PvP from PvE balance. It cannot be maintained as one unified whole. Give gear, skills, everything different effects, and stop ruining everyone's characters every few months for the sake of an unreachable dream.

I'm not going to pretend I will unsubscribe. I need my subscription for a variety of things. But this goes live? I'll probably just shelf most chars I don't actively RP with. Keep a single tank and healer in a more standardized build around to only use with my friends - where I know there to be enough damage to maintain my sanity - and limit myself to a handful of DPS so I don't have to run the nearly exact same setup on almost all of them. Every char I don't play I won't spend my crowns on.

And I feel you'll find many like me will consider the same.

You are correct, not only is the proc set scaling completely unnecessary even for PVP the max numbers are INSANE. The only way to hit those numbers is to have optimized build and minor/major buffs from a trial dummy. Whoever is in charge is ONLY listening to high DPS trial dummy humpers and PVP 1vXers (who NEVER use the fake builds they exaggerate in vids because those builds aren't viable).

95% of other players don't have optimized builds, everyone on their team using every buff in game, and hell most people in pug dungeons don't even use w/s dmg buffing skill or potion. I have 13 toons with decent gear that took years to tweak which all average from 3-4K w/s dmg, 30-35K max stat (tank 40K max, higher than that makes stam/mag unnecessarily hard to maintain), 10-35% crit, that is what a normal player in PVE looks like and the scaling makes all proc sets useless for them.

I'm switching all mag toons to MS/medusa and all Stam to Lev/Hund/sprig or Brrhrt. Delete all tanks and healers. SO fun.

divnyi

katorga wrote: »

Lord only knows how ZOS technically implemented proc set scaling......I can only imagine what sort of computational load it is going to add to the pvp servers.

One additional multiplication on proc damage wouldn't crash their servers. They are implementing damage scale formula now, it means they can add hidden parameter into that formula that accounts for battle spirit. Everything is possible from technical standpoint. It is purely game design decision at this point.

remosito

divnyi wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Lord only knows how ZOS technically implemented proc set scaling......I can only imagine what sort of computational load it is going to add to the pvp servers.

One additional multiplication on proc damage wouldn't crash their servers. They are implementing damage scale formula now, it means they can add hidden parameter into that formula that accounts for battle spirit. Everything is possible from technical standpoint. It is purely game design decision at this point.

you probably dont even have to do that for every proc. just nuke the base proc dmg/heal value. and store those.

Chilly-McFreeze

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

While we're at it, why don't they let specifc dmg increasing sets (swamp raider, war maiden, sun, automaton) count towards the corresponding dmg type proc set scaling?

Someone had mentioned that they actually do.

I have not tested it personally though so I cannot confirm it. Perhaps someone else can.

Quick checked on PTS. Swamp Rider + Velidreth does not add 5p to tooltip

That's definitely good information but did you try whacking the dummy?

The tooltip might miss the update but the damage could still be increased.

IIRC, the person who reported earlier had been using War Maiden and one of the Magic Damage proc sets.

Seems about correct. I just tested some more. BUT there is at least on outlier I found in my short test.

Flame dmg
Skoria with War Maiden: 3003 spell dmg on sheat, 4233 skora tool tip -> 3216 dmg on dummy
Skoria with Silks / Sun: 3003 spell dmg (+400 for flame dmg abilities), 4233 tt -> 3643 dmg on dummy

Magic Dmg
Nerien'eths with Silks / Sun: 3132 spell dmg , 4474 tt -> 3266 dmg on dummy
Nerien'eths with War Maiden: 3132 spell dmg (+600 for magic dmg abilites), 4233 tt -> 3891 dmg on dummy

Poison Dmg
Mephala with Red Mountain: 3303 weapon dmg, 755 tt -> 481 dmg on dummy
Mephala with Swamp Raider: 3303 wpn dmg (+600 on poison/disease abilities), 755 tt -> 577 dmg on dummy

Disease Dmg
Velidreth with Red Mountain: 3445 wpn dmg, 6760 tt -> 4299 dmg on dummy
Velidreth with Swamp Raider: 3445 wpn dmg (+600 on poison/disease abilities), 6760 tt -> 4299 dmg on dummy

So my original findings seems to be a bug rather than a design issue.

@ZOS_GinaBruno : Swamp Rider / Velidreth combo is bugged as SR doesn't buff Veli despite both handling disease dmg.

BlueRaven

With this and the cp nerf, this chapter is going to be awful for combat.

colossalvoids

BlueRaven wrote: »

With this and the cp nerf, this chapter is going to be awful for combat.

For me personally the main issue is that we will surely adapt and not that much changed for experienced players, but for a beginner or a pretty casual player that can't care less about optimising it would be a huge nerf overall. Same patch they said that it's lowering the celling and rising the floor. Instead we smashed the floor and upped the celling yet again, not sure they even aware of this

BlueRaven

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

With this and the cp nerf, this chapter is going to be awful for combat.

For me personally the main issue is that we will surely adapt and not that much changed for experienced players, but for a beginner or a pretty casual player that can't care less about optimising it would be a huge nerf overall. Same patch they said that it's lowering the celling and rising the floor. Instead we smashed the floor and upped the celling yet again, not sure they even aware of this

Exactly. I am just perplexed over their decisions. I am truly baffled by them.

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Lord only knows how ZOS technically implemented proc set scaling......I can only imagine what sort of computational load it is going to add to the pvp servers.

One additional multiplication on proc damage wouldn't crash their servers. They are implementing damage scale formula now, it means they can add hidden parameter into that formula that accounts for battle spirit. Everything is possible from technical standpoint. It is purely game design decision at this point.

You say that and I would agree, but look at the history of things ZOS tried to improve performance....

• cooldowns to stop players from casting too much
• % chance calculations
• % stat calculations
• AOE skills
• AOE heals
• 90% of sets in the game

Dragonredux

It's things like this that make me go, "Who is this change for?".

Is it for PvPers? No, some of the them didn't want to this happen and just wanted a few problem sets changed/sets. Which they could have done via Battle Spirit.

Is it for PvEers? No, Proc sets weren't really used unless it's a monster set or Relequen in a trial group, but they were still effective for people not wanting to run the meta or have a little fun.

If you're a tank who wanted to do a little damage to kill things faster or help a PuG group, your choices are now limited to Leeching, Frozen Watcher, and Shadowrend...

Magicka characters virtually don't even have a chance to run a proc set to even hit the ORIGINAL value.

Stamina characters can still technically run it because if you're going through so many hoops to do that, at that point it's like "but why should I even bother?" This can also applies to some of the healer sets that scale of Max Magicka.

Also while I do acknowledge the fact that the Maelstrom 2h was one of the problem sets in PvP which again they could have solved by Battle Spirit. It sucks that once again I have use the Maelstrom Bow for my stamina characters and I hate using bows.

I don't know the numbers and I don't feel like counting but I feel like ZoS just killed like half of their sets in this game. I know there will always be a meta setup but part of the fun in this game for me is making an off-meta setup that viable and effective and now build diversity is basically being thrown out the window. It's honestly demotivating, I want to love this game I really do, but you making it really hard right now.

ealdwin

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

With this and the cp nerf, this chapter is going to be awful for combat.

For me personally the main issue is that we will surely adapt and not that much changed for experienced players, but for a beginner or a pretty casual player that can't care less about optimising it would be a huge nerf overall. Same patch they said that it's lowering the celling and rising the floor. Instead we smashed the floor and upped the celling yet again, not sure they even aware of this

Speaking of floor/ceiling, just had a thought.

If they (ZOS) are using linear scaling for determining the power of damage and healing done by proc-sets, and are able to determine the target stat (X) to get the original value of said damage and healing (Y), why do they not just define a lower and upper bound for (Y) creating an easily defined floor and ceiling for proc sets so that a lower (X) is not as punishing?

For instance, the current scaling of Way of Fire works in this manner:
Live: (Numbers from UESP)
Any WD = 3945 Damage Tooltip
PTS: (Numbers from UESP, using a build with all equipment disabled, gradually enabling non-Infused Jewelry w/ WD enchants)
1000 WD = 600 Damage Tooltip
1160 WD = 696 Damage Tooltip
1320 WD = 792 Damage Tooltip
1480 WD = 888 Damage Tooltip
---
Y (Damage) = 0.6 * X (W/SD)
- At least for Way of Fire, other sets seem to operate slightly differently (Deadland's Assassin had 899 Damage at 1000 WD, indicating a slope of ~0.923 after similar testing).
- Currently, on the pts, in order to reach the live value of Way of Fire's damage, 6575 W/SD would be required. (3945/0.6).

At the present, the floor is defined at that (1000, 600) point, with the ceiling completely undefined. ZOS could, if desired, raise the floor by first defining a lower slope at 0.4 rather than 0.6. By keeping the current target of W/SD:Damage at (6575, 3945), this would adjust the equation from y = 0.6x to y = 0.4 x + 1315, where the at the base 1000 WD, the tooltip would read 1715.

If we take a less optimal W/SD value at 4800:
Current Live: y = 3945 = 3945 tooltip
Current PTS: y = 0.6 * 4800 = 2880 tooltip => 0.73 value of live - 27% nerf
Altered PTS: y = 0.4 * 4800 + 1315 = 3235 tooltip => 0.82 value of live - 18% nerf
Alt: y = 0.2 * 4800 + 2630 = 3590 tooltip => 0.91 value of live - 9% nerf

By no means is this a suggestion that the slope of Way of Fire be 0.4 instead of 0.6. But, rather showing that by maintaining the current target to reach values of live, but by decreasing the slope of the linear scaling, the floor could be in effect raised for those less optimized builds, while still requiring investment to reach full potential. In this example, a potential floor of (1000,600) and "ceiling" of say (8000, 4800) becomes more reasonable at (1000, 1715) and (8000, 4515).

Mapekz

I feel a post from earlier in the thread was missed and could have a solution to the problem.

To reiterate the problems:
- Proc Sets were doing too much damage with minimal stat investment in PvP, allowing tank builds to be unkillable and highly damaging simultaneously
- Proc Sets were made to scale off stats, and that scaling was lowered in the latest PTS, basically invalidating them for PvE content

A potential solution:
- Re-enable Crits for damage/healing procs
- In PvE this would more than compensate for the lost power from the proc scaling changes
- In PvP due to the prevalence of Crit Resist this would limit the power gain (though it could move us back to an Impenetrable-only meta)
- If the power regained is too high they could further reduce the damage/max mag/max stam scaling, or reduce/remove the base 50% crit bonus from the procs, requiring investment in crit damage/healing % to make the procs stronger.

Skullstachio wrote: »

There is one thing I picked up on. The fact that, even if a player cannot reach the proverbial ceiling, there is the possibility that ZoS may yet very well repeal a component to an old patch which prevented damage and heal procs from being Critical.
In that regard, there is a chance that proc sets will be able to Crit again since the new set scaling formula will result in a base power drop, plus critical damage in PvP isn’t as viable since critical resistance can be utilised to mitigate set proc critical damage to a fine point.