Stop mindcontrolling MY character ZOS!!!

xtni · April 2021

I do love ESO, and I also love many of the other TES titles...
I think questing in ESO is really great, and overall one of my absolute favourite things in the game. The quests are very engaging and well done!

I will speak about Josajeh as an example, but it is a reocurring thing in the game across many characters and quests... It makes me a bit worried for the game overall.
Why is the game "playing" my character for me? Why is the game forcing me to like this character? She nearly broke time itself... and yet I am forced to be friends with her and bid her a friendly farewell? really...?

For me, Josajeh is the without a doubt the most annoying character in the game, and I mean that with every insult possible... I can't abide her actions, I can't abide how the game is attempting to make me feel bad for her, and she ruined most of the Psijic questline for me... I have played the storyline several times, and no matter what dialogue choises I pick, the feeling of not making any choice for myself remains. I do not like her character, I think she was annoying from the start, and I can not just forgive her for her stupid and selfish actions, and yet some divine power (ZOS) seems to make my character love her...
Why? Just why?

I know I've said this many times, but I just can't abide her... yet the game offers no dialogue options to be angry with her. In the end, you have to listen to her farewells and wish her safe travels. I don't want to do that. I have not forgiven her actions, and I don't want the game to force me into polite conversation with someone I don't like.

If ESO had been a "roleplaying game" there would at least have been an option to remain silent... I don't want to change her character, I don't want to change the questline or change the outcome - I just want a bit more dialogue options...

Loremaster Celarus says: "She deceived me and the Ritemaster, stole an artifact of unimaginable power, and very nearly broke time itself. Exile is our only recourse. This brings me no joy. I care deeply for Josajeh. It is… it is tragic." - Sure, that is the loremasters opinion, and I am not saying that is wrong. If he cares for her - good for him - just don't try to force me into feeling the same.

Sadly ESO is not a "roleplaying" game since the game is forcing me to forgive her and become friends with her...
I don't believe it is even possible to make an evil character, due to lack of dialogue options in the game...
I don't enjoy the "on rails dialogue"...

I don't think Josajeh is a badly written character. It is very natural to have people you like and people you don't like, that does not make her poorly written... I do however think, the lack of choice in how you respond to her is making the overall psijic story and interaction within the psijic story poorly written.

I really miss a chance to make my own dialogue choice... why even make my own character if the game is playing my character and roleplaying for me? If there is no actual options and if the dialogue is on rails, why even give me dialogue?

When the game is choosing my friends for me it loses value... I want to decide if I have a bond with a character or not. I don't want the game to pick my friends for me. When Abnur Tharn returned in Elsweyr, I was very happy to see him, and I would have loved to be able to choose for myself, and really embrace him as a friend of my own choice, instead of the game forcing me to be alright with him. It could be cool to have seen an option, where you were angry with him for what he did in the main quest, and an option where you are completely fine with it and forgives him.

This is sadly a therme in the game and I hope in the future, we can get more options for dialogues... I often feel forced to have certain opinions and often it is not possible to even agree with morally grey/shady characters who happen to be our allies...

To me, dialogue in ESO leaves a bit to be desired...

Fischblut · April 2021

Why is the game "playing" my character for me? Why is the game forcing me to like this character?

I agree! I very rarely like main/important NPC characters, and yet most of time I'm forced to work with them/be friendly to them

VaranisArano · April 2021

ESO, and indeed most roleplaying games, are never going to live up to our imaginations or be able to capture the wide range of responses that we might have to events and characters.

I have my gripes too, but at a certain point, the game is only so customizable. Development time and money is limited, and the writers are writing stories for a wide variety of players and characters, not just one Varanis Arano who hates vampires in general, and one hypocritical Count Verandis Ravenwatch in particular.

Mythreindeer · April 2021

Wow.

Take a step back, deep breath. Watch the IRL evening news and your problems with this NPC will fade into unimportance.

Also maybe live without the Psijic line on future toons.

Best.

Kalik_Gold · April 2021

Storylines need more "choose your adventure" written options.

allhailskippy · April 2021

This is a problem with the way they designed quests from the very beginning.

Nothing matters. Period.
Your choices, regardless of what they may be. End up with the same footnote above a quest areas marker.

"Resolved the conflict present there"

Even the main storyline is like this. Choose the "wrong person". Too bad. Skyhook comes and brings them back regardless. At best, you'll get an extra line or two of dialog.

But while irritating. I don't think that's a huge problem. This is an MMO, not a single player RPG. And while it belongs to a franchise, it will always be separate.

Think of it this way. A single player RPG is designed to have 1 character play through it, and then be done. If you want to explore different options, then you re-roll a character and play again (or save your game, murder the entire populace of the game, and then reload like nothing happened).

But MMOs carry on. New content comes out on the regular. We are meant to keep playing the same character. Over, and over, and over.

So what happens when everyone ends up at different possible outcomes for a quest. You get maybe 2 endings to track. So when the next story comes along you'll have 2 starting points instead of 1. Each of which, unless they railroad you into an ending, will have their own outcomes. If they each have 2, then you now have 4 possible starting points for the next story. And then 8, 16, 32. And so on.

So while it would be nice to have this type of control/behaviour over our own destinies. It is an understandable outcome of a necessary design decision.

We're just passengers along this particular ride.

Remathilis · April 2021

This is why a video game, ANY video game, can't beat face to face gaming like Dungeons and Dragons. You're always gonna be on the rails in an mmo, so enjoy the ride or disembark.

josiahva · April 2021

Yeah....the storyline in ESO is terrible. Just like all video games. The only video game I have seen with actual well written quests is The Witcher....and I suspect that is because they just copied storylines from the books....however they managed it, those quests feel like more than a re-skinned Fable fetch quest. To be clear though...I don't actually expect good storylines. If I want a good story, I will read a book.

Lintashi · April 2021

Mostly I somehow manage to keep my immersion in game and character, but yes, in many cases, game makes us choose and follow the path against our will in order to complete the quest. I really hate quest in Karthwasten. Why on earth, should I pay my respects to Molag Bal at his shrine! My character may be an assasin, vampire and thief, but praying to Molag Bal is just too much!

Berdusk · April 2021

allhailskippy wrote: »

This is a problem with the way they designed quests from the very beginning.

Nothing matters. Period.
Your choices, regardless of what they may be. End up with the same footnote above a quest areas marker.

"Resolved the conflict present there"

Even the main storyline is like this. Choose the "wrong person". Too bad. Skyhook comes and brings them back regardless. At best, you'll get an extra line or two of dialog.

But while irritating. I don't think that's a huge problem. This is an MMO, not a single player RPG. And while it belongs to a franchise, it will always be separate.

Think of it this way. A single player RPG is designed to have 1 character play through it, and then be done. If you want to explore different options, then you re-roll a character and play again (or save your game, murder the entire populace of the game, and then reload like nothing happened).

But MMOs carry on. New content comes out on the regular. We are meant to keep playing the same character. Over, and over, and over.

So what happens when everyone ends up at different possible outcomes for a quest. You get maybe 2 endings to track. So when the next story comes along you'll have 2 starting points instead of 1. Each of which, unless they railroad you into an ending, will have their own outcomes. If they each have 2, then you now have 4 possible starting points for the next story. And then 8, 16, 32. And so on.

So while it would be nice to have this type of control/behaviour over our own destinies. It is an understandable outcome of a necessary design decision.

We're just passengers along this particular ride.

I don't think the OP is asking for alternative endings in different questlines. I agree with him: It's the forced dialogue choices that are the problem. I get that it's an MMO and not everyone is going to make the same selections and, with it being a shared world, the outcome of quests are limited. But that doesn't mean the dialogue has to always make our dialogue choices the same. His character may dislike Josajeh and mine might. That doesn't require a different outcome for the quest, but we shouldn't all be wishing her a fond farewell by default, either.

I would like the option to side with the Worm Cult and ultimately be defeated, for example. But I know it's an MMO, so I have to fight Molag Bol and so on. That doesn't mean I should have the exact same dialogue as every other Vestige in the game.

The outcome may be a foregone conclusion, and that's fine. There's no reason we can't have a little more variety in our dialogue choices, though. It's an easy thing to do on a case-by-case basis (not so much going back, given the scope of the game at this point), so there's no reason we should all be forced into only one dialogue option. This would, however, be an easy thing to fix moving forward.

TL:DR - Fixed quest outcomes are fine, fixed dialogue is not.

Thank you.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2021

Remathilis wrote: »

This is why a video game, ANY video game, can't beat face to face gaming like Dungeons and Dragons. You're always gonna be on the rails in an mmo, so enjoy the ride or disembark.

This. RPGs, especially MMORPGs don't actually have a lot of "choice" or "role-playing" in them. They mostly have set stories that you get to play through, making minor choices here & there while the main structure is set.

Of course, it's been like this for the 30+ years I've been gaming, so I don't expect more than that. Every MMO I've played, I've been "stuck liking" the NPCs the quests give me (oh, don't get me started on this Discovery-based garbage going on in Star Trek Online the last year or two

). Nothing new or surprising there.

Only surprising thing to me, is people actually thinking it wouldn't be that way.

Nirntrotter · April 2021

Josajeh is a big offender for me as well, and a big reason why I dislike the Psijic "story" arc so much. She is insanely unlikable, which is fair, but there's no way to acknowledge that, and on top of that the actual story happens in the background while you're away on a wild goose time rift chase. After, the NPCs get you up to speed on what happened. Very engaging design, lol.

spartaxoxo · April 2021

You're not gonna get that kind of storytelling in a game of this size. Just think of the vestige like Nathan Drake, they are a particular character in a particular world. Sure, you may have some minor control over their dialogue or morality, but they also have a personality that's not of your own design.

The vestige is generally forgiving, forgetful, amoral, and is not the brightest bulb in the box. They are also a tremendously powerful being. Those things are gonna generally always be true.

xtni · April 2021

Berdusk wrote: »

I don't think the OP is asking for alternative endings in different questlines. I agree with him: It's the forced dialogue choices that are the problem. I get that it's an MMO and not everyone is going to make the same selections and, with it being a shared world, the outcome of quests are limited. But that doesn't mean the dialogue has to always make our dialogue choices the same. His character may dislike Josajeh and mine might. That doesn't require a different outcome for the quest, but we shouldn't all be wishing her a fond farewell by default, either.

I would like the option to side with the Worm Cult and ultimately be defeated, for example. But I know it's an MMO, so I have to fight Molag Bol and so on. That doesn't mean I should have the exact same dialogue as every other Vestige in the game.

The outcome may be a foregone conclusion, and that's fine. There's no reason we can't have a little more variety in our dialogue choices, though. It's an easy thing to do on a case-by-case basis (not so much going back, given the scope of the game at this point), so there's no reason we should all be forced into only one dialogue option. This would, however, be an easy thing to fix moving forward.

TL:DR - Fixed quest outcomes are fine, fixed dialogue is not.

Thank you.

Exactly that! That is my opinion, and that is exactly what I meant when I wrote the post. Sure, there are limits and the quest outcomes will probably always be very limited due to the game being an mmo, but a few dialogue options is not much to ask for and it is not something that would be hard to implement.

AcadianPaladin · April 2021

Two specific quests come to mind because my elf will no longer do them.

One is in Grahtwood and is called Pact Advocate. After discovering the identity of the villager who committed the unforgivable sin of picking a mushroom to make a life-saving potion for a dying woman, the guilty villager is sentenced to death. You do not have the option of saying, "You are uncompassionate idiots and if you want to kill this villager, you'll have to come through me!" Your options are to participate in the execution or abandon the quest.

The second such quest is in Vardenfell is more problematic since it is actually a Telvanni questline where you help Sun-in-Shadows become a Telvanni wizard. She is a despicable character which is fine as far as that goes, but there is no option to sabotage or undo her manipulation and abuse of those who care about her in her 'at all cost' focus on her objective.

the1andonlyskwex · April 2021

allhailskippy wrote: »

This is a problem with the way they designed quests from the very beginning.

Nothing matters. Period.
Your choices, regardless of what they may be. End up with the same footnote above a quest areas marker.

"Resolved the conflict present there"

Even the main storyline is like this. Choose the "wrong person". Too bad. Skyhook comes and brings them back regardless. At best, you'll get an extra line or two of dialog.

Hold up there. When ESO released, tons of quests actually had consequences and affected the world. The problem was that then everyone was dumped into a different instance based on the choices they made, which badly fragmented the player base and even prevented friends from playing together. It caused tons of problems and complaints, so they removed most of it over the course of the next year.

allhailskippy · April 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

This is a problem with the way they designed quests from the very beginning.

Nothing matters. Period.
Your choices, regardless of what they may be. End up with the same footnote above a quest areas marker.

"Resolved the conflict present there"

Even the main storyline is like this. Choose the "wrong person". Too bad. Skyhook comes and brings them back regardless. At best, you'll get an extra line or two of dialog.

But while irritating. I don't think that's a huge problem. This is an MMO, not a single player RPG. And while it belongs to a franchise, it will always be separate.

Think of it this way. A single player RPG is designed to have 1 character play through it, and then be done. If you want to explore different options, then you re-roll a character and play again (or save your game, murder the entire populace of the game, and then reload like nothing happened).

But MMOs carry on. New content comes out on the regular. We are meant to keep playing the same character. Over, and over, and over.

So what happens when everyone ends up at different possible outcomes for a quest. You get maybe 2 endings to track. So when the next story comes along you'll have 2 starting points instead of 1. Each of which, unless they railroad you into an ending, will have their own outcomes. If they each have 2, then you now have 4 possible starting points for the next story. And then 8, 16, 32. And so on.

So while it would be nice to have this type of control/behaviour over our own destinies. It is an understandable outcome of a necessary design decision.

We're just passengers along this particular ride.

Hold up there. When ESO released, tons of quests actually had consequences and affected the world. The problem was that then everyone was dumped into a different instance based on the choices they made, which badly fragmented the player base and even prevented friends from playing together. It caused tons of problems and complaints, so they removed most of it over the course of the next year.

I was not aware of that. Only been here since post 1T

Sheezabeast · April 2021

If you have a PS4, I highly recommend a game called Detroit: Become Human. It has an insane amount of endings, your decisions effect how characters treat you, and you can kill off people in the plot you don't like and the plot progresses around that, with consequences, but you can, and it's wonderful!!!

Alurria · April 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

This is a problem with the way they designed quests from the very beginning.

Nothing matters. Period.
Your choices, regardless of what they may be. End up with the same footnote above a quest areas marker.

"Resolved the conflict present there"

Even the main storyline is like this. Choose the "wrong person". Too bad. Skyhook comes and brings them back regardless. At best, you'll get an extra line or two of dialog.

Hold up there. When ESO released, tons of quests actually had consequences and affected the world. The problem was that then everyone was dumped into a different instance based on the choices they made, which badly fragmented the player base and even prevented friends from playing together. It caused tons of problems and complaints, so they removed most of it over the course of the next year.

This^ the consequences of opening the game up to one tramiel. You couldn't quest with a friend unless you were in the same instance and same part of a quest. So here we are. But I find the quests to be fun, I don't invest my emotional support into pixelated characters either. I find them amusing or rather interesting knowing in rl I would not tolerate some of the choices I made in game. You take on the role of a hero you accept the consequences of decisions.

spartaxoxo · April 2021

xtni wrote: »

Berdusk wrote: »

I don't think the OP is asking for alternative endings in different questlines. I agree with him: It's the forced dialogue choices that are the problem. I get that it's an MMO and not everyone is going to make the same selections and, with it being a shared world, the outcome of quests are limited. But that doesn't mean the dialogue has to always make our dialogue choices the same. His character may dislike Josajeh and mine might. That doesn't require a different outcome for the quest, but we shouldn't all be wishing her a fond farewell by default, either.

I would like the option to side with the Worm Cult and ultimately be defeated, for example. But I know it's an MMO, so I have to fight Molag Bol and so on. That doesn't mean I should have the exact same dialogue as every other Vestige in the game.

The outcome may be a foregone conclusion, and that's fine. There's no reason we can't have a little more variety in our dialogue choices, though. It's an easy thing to do on a case-by-case basis (not so much going back, given the scope of the game at this point), so there's no reason we should all be forced into only one dialogue option. This would, however, be an easy thing to fix moving forward.

TL:DR - Fixed quest outcomes are fine, fixed dialogue is not.

Thank you.

Exactly that! That is my opinion, and that is exactly what I meant when I wrote the post. Sure, there are limits and the quest outcomes will probably always be very limited due to the game being an mmo, but a few dialogue options is not much to ask for and it is not something that would be hard to implement.

If they just gave different dialogue that didn't change anything about the next time the character saw you, that wouldn't be satisfying either. If you told Josajeh off and the next time you saw her you had to be her bff, that would be pretty off-putting. So the only way to make that dialogue actually matter is to enable more choices which has the same problem as other choices

Faded · April 2021

xtni wrote: »

Berdusk wrote: »

I don't think the OP is asking for alternative endings in different questlines. I agree with him: It's the forced dialogue choices that are the problem. I get that it's an MMO and not everyone is going to make the same selections and, with it being a shared world, the outcome of quests are limited. But that doesn't mean the dialogue has to always make our dialogue choices the same. His character may dislike Josajeh and mine might. That doesn't require a different outcome for the quest, but we shouldn't all be wishing her a fond farewell by default, either.

I would like the option to side with the Worm Cult and ultimately be defeated, for example. But I know it's an MMO, so I have to fight Molag Bol and so on. That doesn't mean I should have the exact same dialogue as every other Vestige in the game.

The outcome may be a foregone conclusion, and that's fine. There's no reason we can't have a little more variety in our dialogue choices, though. It's an easy thing to do on a case-by-case basis (not so much going back, given the scope of the game at this point), so there's no reason we should all be forced into only one dialogue option. This would, however, be an easy thing to fix moving forward.

TL:DR - Fixed quest outcomes are fine, fixed dialogue is not.

Thank you.

Exactly that! That is my opinion, and that is exactly what I meant when I wrote the post. Sure, there are limits and the quest outcomes will probably always be very limited due to the game being an mmo, but a few dialogue options is not much to ask for and it is not something that would be hard to implement.

Agree.

They used to do a better job of this. There's a quest on the AD starter island that I like a lot for just this reason. The bad guy disappears after the quest whatever you pick, but your character chooses the lawful outcome or the chaotic one. I think it changes a couple of lines of dialogue four zones later, but I'm not sure because every time but one

I was all about the Green Lady torturing him to death.

And yeah, "It's ok, I know you didn't mean any harm," is not what any of my characters wanted to say to Josajeh.

Mik195 · April 2021

I just want a simple end to the quest and if you pick it, you don't see the character again. Like for Sun in Shadows if the last thing I tell her is that I don't approve, then she doesn't show up at my "saved the world" party. They can leave the BFF during the quest, just let the end have more than one finish.

SpiritofESO · April 2021

GreenHere · April 2021

Yeah, whenever I see people singing praises for ESO's writing and story content, I think of stuff like this.

I find most of it to be far below "superb" or whatever people say that think it's so great, but sometimes it's just downright unenjoyable for me when "the story" forces me to feel/react/"choose"/etc things that make no sense for me or my character. No one likes being railed into decisions that make no sense for how they see their journey going. And there's plenty of that in ESO.

Sometimes I kind of wish I was one of those people who thought everything was awesome, though. Life must be blissful for those folks, haha.

amapola76 · April 2021

I actually find most of the dialogue choices in various quests to be fairly minimalist. After all, in game as in real life, there's what you say and what you think, and they need not align precisely. Your words and your motivations may be two very different things.

For example, if OP wants to roleplay in this scenario, your headcanon might be that this character is NOT your bff, but you realize that everyone else loves her, so you say polite farewells to go along with the group, even though internally you despise her.

This approach takes a bit more imagination than having the game provide you with every possible permutation of dialogue choices, but most of the time, it's effective.

amapola76 · April 2021

Then, too, there's tone: there's absolutely no reason you can't imagine most dialogue choices being said in a snarky or sarcastic tone rather than sincerely. Or with enthusiasm or in a monotone, depending on your character.

spartaxoxo · April 2021

GreenHere wrote: »

Sometimes I kind of wish I was one of those people who thought everything was awesome, though. Life must be blissful for those folks, haha.

Well sometimes I wonder if displeasure at this is an extension of how the character is viewed. Is the vestige their own characters who's story you're helping to form or an extension of yourself, storytelling wise? Like for me, I don't care that the vestige isn't doings how I would do them, because I'm not the vestige

Araneae6537 · April 2021

It would be awesome if there were different response options, at least for main story quests, that might make little to know difference in their outcome but would affect how other characters interact with us. I am hopeful that we will have such options at least with new companions being introduced.

As for the quests, although sometimes I really do wish I had other response options, most of the time I feel like they are reasonably neutral and let you fill in what your character thinks about the other characters and situation. It’s not like GW2, which has a ton of voiced cutscenes for the PC and can be quite jarring if you’d imagined your character reacting differently!

Bradyfjord · April 2021

There are several npc's that ought to have been punished in some way. Not going to make a list, but instead just say that in most cases it would not affect the game at all to have the option to punish an npc if the player thinks it is in character.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Sometimes I kind of wish I was one of those people who thought everything was awesome, though. Life must be blissful for those folks, haha.

Well sometimes I wonder if displeasure at this is an extension of how the character is viewed. Is the vestige their own characters who's story you're helping to form or an extension of yourself, storytelling wise? Like for me, I don't care that the vestige isn't doings how I would do them, because I'm not the vestige

Yeah. The characters I play in games aren't avatars/extensions of 'me', they're just very fancy game pieces being moved around on a very fancy board.

I suppose I also don't really "roleplay"very hard - in most of these games that don't really give any actual choice, I'm fine with playing through/experiencing the story that the devs want to tell. I don't need to make it my own. Just because it has "RPG" in it's description, doesn't automatically make it any different than a story I'm reading or a movie I'm watching - I've been playing digital "RPGs" with preset storylines for around 40 years now.

I definitely don't have the same expectations of an MMO that I would of a Bioware or Bethesda singleplayer game - and even those are quite limited in the choices you can make, compared to a tabletop game with a GM.

GreenHere · April 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Sometimes I kind of wish I was one of those people who thought everything was awesome, though. Life must be blissful for those folks, haha.

Well sometimes I wonder if displeasure at this is an extension of how the character is viewed. Is the vestige their own characters who's story you're helping to form or an extension of yourself, storytelling wise? Like for me, I don't care that the vestige isn't doings how I would do them, because I'm not the vestige

I guess the short answer for me would be "it depends"...

I don't really get heavy into roleplaying or anything, not in the way that most mean it I think, but I do sometimes attempt to play a character how I envision their personality would dictate.

As an example, I have a Necromancer character that I imagine to be decidedly evil and borderline crazy ... but he's got the same quest options as everyone else. So in situations where, "Prepare to be turned into a meat puppet, you worthless slag!! >:D " might be an appropriate response for him, I'm instead left with the choice between "You probably shouldn't have done that, but I forgive you. After all, we just met but I feel like we're going to be friends forever!" or "You made the right choice, and I admire your strength of character for doing the right thing. I support you, booboo! *mwah*" Exaggerated for the sake of illustration, but often the "choices" we get seem incongruous just for the situation at hand, or like meaningless non-choices in the first place. Hard to have much immersion or feel the writing is particularly praise-worthy in situations like that. And there's a lot of them to my mind.

Other times I'm not thinking about my character at all. I'm just playing through the game as me more or less, and there are times when I look at the dialogue options and think, "I wouldn't say... any of that. No one would. Wut?" Or other times still where there seems to be reasonable dialogue options, but they for some reason seem to be all out of order. I run into this one a lot; if you choose dialogue options from top to bottom the flow of conversation seems very "off" for lack of a better way to put it. Bottom to top almost seems to be the actually-intended way to go through dialogue choices in most cases. Which is weird, right?

Even if you play as a generic, agreeable, "normal" actor in the world, sometimes the dialogue/choices just seem so... I don't know... stale? Like a writer was on their 9th story for the day, and was just thinking, "Gods! Is it 4 o'clock yet?!" or something. So while I get that they can't all be gems, for every quest that I feel is stale or whatever there is someone who thinks it's awesome and well-written. I guess I was more saying I sorta wish I could be so accepting and happy with stuff like those folks. Unfortunately my crotchety brain and critical nature won't seem to allow it. :P

It's mostly a "me" problem, no question.