Content Creators Initial Response to Proc set Scaling

relentless_turnip

I have no doubt the developers will be aware of the scaling issue with proc sets at the moment, I just feel it is important to emphasise this as it will be a horrible environment if this goes live as it is.
I think a return to the drawing board is totally warranted in this case and the numbers required to meet the original tooltips needs to be brought up significantly at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQdKdNWGXFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMcURKycg_I

Feel free to post more.

actosh

Hp/Armor scaling should be 45000/30000
Spelldmg/wpndm should be 4000/6000
Max Mag/Max Stam should be 40000
to reach the dmg they have on live.

Make ppl invest for procs hit.

katorga

Just back it out completely and start over.

Seriously. This is worse than the way it is now. If they try to "adjust" it or try to balance it for pve and pvp; it just will not work.

Sleep724

The Proc Set Meta to rule them all.

GreenHere

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

relentless_turnip

actosh wrote: »

Hp/Armor scaling should be 45000/30000
Spelldmg/wpndm should be 4000/6000
Max Mag/Max Stam should be 40000
to reach the dmg they have on live.

Make ppl invest for procs hit.

I largely agree with you, but I think the requirement on most should be higher than that.

SD should be 5k and WD 7k at least imo, don't forget the amount of pen you get from light armor.

TequilaFire

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

jaws343

relentless_turnip wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Hp/Armor scaling should be 45000/30000
Spelldmg/wpndm should be 4000/6000
Max Mag/Max Stam should be 40000
to reach the dmg they have on live.

Make ppl invest for procs hit.

I largely agree with you, but I think the requirement on most should be higher than that.

SD should be 5k and WD 7k at least imo, don't forget the amount of pen you get from light armor.

Yeah, the SD/WD requirements should drop for SD and raise for WD.
The Max Health should probably be closer to 45K.
Resistances should be at the Resistance cap.
I don't actually think the Mag/Stam cap is too bad. But I could see actually raising the Mag cap to like 45K and lowering the stam cap to 35K. The opposite adjustment of the SD/WD scaling.

Sarousse

Thank god there will be procless campaigns available.

relentless_turnip

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

Not trying to cause an argument here I genuinely don't understand. Why can't they reach those numbers? Surely it is a skill gap that denotes which tier you belong to?

Sarousse

Simple and easy fix : limit the use of damage proc sets to one at a time (share the cooldown for example), and cap the value to a reasonable amout. (There is NO WAY a damage autofire and forget proc should hit for 10k+ damage).

Joy_Division

Saw this coming. It's easy to push weapon damage and health to have high stats. Anything that scales off those values is going to hit (or heal) very hard by anybody capable of watching a youtube video.

Shadowman's idea of capping the values to the original will stop them from hitting for ridiculous amounts, but that just puts us back to where we were in 2020.

The issue with procs is that they are rooted in ZOS's philosophy of nerfing classes to reign in the power creep, but putting powerful procs into DLC to entice people to buying them. The gear you wear defines your build. That's is rooted into ESO and won;t change unless people are forbidden to wear gear..

TequilaFire

relentless_turnip wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

Not trying to cause an argument here I genuinely don't understand. Why can't they reach those numbers? Surely it is a skill gap that denotes which tier you belong to?

Not speaking DPS numbers, I was meaning damage and stat numbers are much harder to reach when you don't have the CP or gear sets as available to you at lower levels or a new player.

They want the new players to compete. They have said in the past that the focus is on new casual players that buy the latest DLC/chapter play it, then leave till the next DLC. Rinse and repeat. /$

React

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

I think this is kind of a bad take. The cp system puts higher CP players at an advantage, sure. But as far as stats and sets go, you can acquire and equip the same exact gear at any cp above 160.

The issue is that zenimax acknowledged the issue and tried to nerf the sets, but they didnt take into account the values your average player is actually hitting now. It's so ridiculously easy to hit their new WD/SD scaling values that you can still equip four proc sets and be signifcantly above those numbers - which is WORD FOR WORD what zenimax said shouldn't be possible.

Just kind of shows how out of touch they are with the game.

Brrrofski

Some of this looks gross.

Like I said in another thread...

Brrrofski wrote: »

ZOS....

Forget all these changes to proc sets.

Put it back to how it was, and just nerf crimson, vat 2h and destro, syvaras etc

It was a handful of sets causing issue.

Just nerf them and then actually be careful with new sets.

It's that easy.

Faded

Joy_Division wrote: »

Saw this coming. It's easy to push weapon damage and health to have high stats. Anything that scales off those values is going to hit (or heal) very hard by anybody capable of watching a youtube video.

Shadowman's idea of capping the values to the original will stop them from hitting for ridiculous amounts, but that just puts us back to where we were in 2020.

The issue with procs is that they are rooted in ZOS's philosophy of nerfing classes to reign in the power creep, but putting powerful procs into DLC to entice people to buying them. The gear you wear defines your build. That's is rooted into ESO and won;t change unless people are forbidden to wear gear..

We've got a lot of players now who've never played the game any other way. They feel weak, and the idea that their powerful gear shouldn't be so powerful is unthinkable.

This cycle is poison for PVP but I don't think the devs are interested in the cure. We know for sure they've got a really smart math guy on that team, and the effects of this scaling + not capping the damage aren't exactly hard to predict.

katorga

Without implementing this scaling model across everything, ZOS creates a system were I can boost procs to levels higher than I can today, while still maintaining massive self healing and skill damage.

The scaling model only shifts were I put resources. I only need the minimum amount of stamina necessary to sustain my attacks, everything else past that can be devoted to weapon damage, with ZERO impact on my build because my skills and abilities (Vigor for example) still scale from the combined damage/stamina stats.

Crimson scaling with health. That is just an entire new level of fail.

Goregrinder

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

What makes ESO unique among the see of other fantasy based MMORPG's, is that a player's mechanical skill is as important and the math and stats behind the scene. Just watched a video of Deltia do vMA with absolutely no CP points spent. CP can help you, but they can't play the game for you. And you can definitely play the game without them and be successful at PVE or PVP. The key factor here is the human element.

TequilaFire

Liam12548 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

I think this is kind of a bad take. The cp system puts higher CP players at an advantage, sure. But as far as stats and sets go, you can acquire and equip the same exact gear at any cp above 160.

The issue is that zenimax acknowledged the issue and tried to nerf the sets, but they didnt take into account the values your average player is actually hitting now. It's so ridiculously easy to hit their new WD/SD scaling values that you can still equip four proc sets and be signifcantly above those numbers - which is WORD FOR WORD what zenimax said shouldn't be possible.

Just kind of shows how out of touch they are with the game.

No average player is hitting 6K weapon damage. And acquiring that gear is not that easy for new players because even at CP160 you get kicked from activities.

katorga

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I have builds with really high numbers right now using just the 20 sets allowed in Cyrodil. 7K weapon damage, 38K health, 22K stam and high regen values (peak when every buff is up). That gear is easily obtainable by anyone. The food is expensive tho.

Sandman929

I'm sure this has been discussed at ZOS for awhile, but did no one working there actually try to make a max health build to see what happens? People say the developers play the game, but I find that very difficult to believe sometimes.
How do you removes problematic sets for months and some how come back with an idea to make them even worse?

relentless_turnip

Sandman929 wrote: »

I'm sure this has been discussed at ZOS for awhile, but did no one working there actually try to make a max health build to see what happens? People say the developers play the game, but I find that very difficult to believe sometimes.
How do you removes problematic sets for months and some how come back with an idea to make them even worse?

I think fundamentally it was good idea, but like you I am surprised they managed to arrive at numbers that are so easily exploitable. Anyone could have logged onto the PTS and within an hour told you whether the numbers were reasonable. They need to make the most of the class rep system imo and ask players to test this before it reaches the masses on the PTS. Though this is essentially what the PTS is for, we have seen time and time again these things fly right through...

TequilaFire

katorga wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I have builds with really high numbers right now using just the 20 sets allowed in Cyrodil. 7K weapon damage, 38K health, 22K stam and high regen values (peak when every buff is up). That gear is easily obtainable by anyone. The food is expensive tho.

As do I but neither one of us are new players.
Go start a new account, without CP and your crafter and all the other resources we take for granted, you will see.
The average player doesn't min/max as much especially for PvP.

I don't agree with the way ZOS went about it, should of just nerfed a couple of the offending proc sets, but I understand why they wanted to do it.

Joy_Division

TequilaFire wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

I think this is kind of a bad take. The cp system puts higher CP players at an advantage, sure. But as far as stats and sets go, you can acquire and equip the same exact gear at any cp above 160.

The issue is that zenimax acknowledged the issue and tried to nerf the sets, but they didnt take into account the values your average player is actually hitting now. It's so ridiculously easy to hit their new WD/SD scaling values that you can still equip four proc sets and be signifcantly above those numbers - which is WORD FOR WORD what zenimax said shouldn't be possible.

Just kind of shows how out of touch they are with the game.

No average player is hitting 6K weapon damage. And acquiring that gear is not that easy for new players because even at CP160 you get kicked from activities.

The problem is not with average players. The issue is when people who are reasonably skilled at the game figure out how to output 40K damage in a single burst, it basically means everyone needs to fight fire with fire or else throw their computer out the window if they have a competitive bone in their body.

Starlock

relentless_turnip wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

Not trying to cause an argument here I genuinely don't understand. Why can't they reach those numbers? Surely it is a skill gap that denotes which tier you belong to?

That depends. What's the measure of skill? For me, it's not number chasing, it's design creativity, storytelling, character concept, stuff like that - and clearing the content you want to with your design. That means I'm not min/maxing stats, which means I'm not reaching the numbers needed to reach current proc set values on any of my characters. And since I refuse to destroy my characters for the sake of chasing numbers, I just get to eat a significant loss of proc power (on top of the net loss from the CP changes, to add) that I can't make up for anywhere.

For the most part, this game has allowed for design creativity while also being able to do the vast majority of content in the game. So it hasn't been hard to chase something other than numbers and make things work if you know what you're doing. That's basically what I do all the time - give the finger to the power gamer's meta (chase numbers) and follow the roleplayer's meta (chase concept) while also doing well enough in more challenging content. These changes that are coming down the line? They're going to impact players like me more than the power gamers. So if the point is to reduce gaps between people who power game and those who don't, these changes are doing exactly the opposite of that. Sure, I'm good enough I can probably make it work anyway but that these changes are even being considered is just not a good sign for this game's direction for many players.

TequilaFire

Joy_Division wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

I think this is kind of a bad take. The cp system puts higher CP players at an advantage, sure. But as far as stats and sets go, you can acquire and equip the same exact gear at any cp above 160.

The issue is that zenimax acknowledged the issue and tried to nerf the sets, but they didnt take into account the values your average player is actually hitting now. It's so ridiculously easy to hit their new WD/SD scaling values that you can still equip four proc sets and be signifcantly above those numbers - which is WORD FOR WORD what zenimax said shouldn't be possible.

Just kind of shows how out of touch they are with the game.

No average player is hitting 6K weapon damage. And acquiring that gear is not that easy for new players because even at CP160 you get kicked from activities.

The problem is not with average players. The issue is when people who are reasonably skilled at the game figure out how to output 40K damage in a single burst, it basically means everyone needs to fight fire with fire or else throw their computer out the window if they have a competitive bone in their body.

Totally agree, that is why they should of just adjusted or eliminated certain sets.

olsborg

What madshadowman said in his vid, all is 100% true and has been for years now, please zenimax, listen then act accordingly.

JerBearESO

katorga wrote: »

Just back it out completely and start over.

Seriously. This is worse than the way it is now. If they try to "adjust" it or try to balance it for pve and pvp; it just will not work.

exactly!

YandereGirlfriend

GreenHere wrote: »

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

This is the only correct answer.

Keep the scaling as is for PvE and nerf sets in the venue where they may actually be a problem - in PvP.

Shantu

My god, what is going on at ZOS? Could no one see this coming? Proc sets were only an issue in PVP. As mentioned above, fix it there and just leave the rest of the game alone! You don't need a chainsaw to remove a splinter from your finger.

LeonAkando

It's vital to keep in mind these proc changes have not been so nice for PVE. Raising the numbers needed would make them even more worthless than they currently are.

PVP just needs separate scaling with Proc Sets. Nerfing them, once again, for PVP is annoying the majority of the players who don't do PVP.