Content Creators Initial Response to Proc set Scaling

GreenHere

Shantu wrote: »

My god, what is going on at ZOS? Could no one see this coming? Proc sets were only an issue in PVP. As mentioned above, fix it there and just leave the rest of the game alone! You don't need a chainsaw to remove a splinter from your finger.

@Shantu
But what if it's, like, a reeally small splinter? The kind that are tiny and don't bother anyone?






ZOS, probably:

Canned_Apples

It’s a New World.

JerBearESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

This is the only correct answer.

Keep the scaling as is for PvE and nerf sets in the venue where they may actually be a problem - in PvP.

the problem with this is a pretty big deal. a HUGE part of what makes this game good is the fact you can buildcraft, be creative with your builds, especially in pvp where min maxing isnt as big a deal, and the key component to buildcraft is usually procs, which are, quite honestly, at the heart of ESO.

now, to simply whack procs with a nerf stick in pvp may certainly solve the problem of proc cheese, but while also actually killing procs altogether. normal everyday theme based creative proc builds, after all, already struggle against stat builds in actuality.

so....would removing all procs from the game be a good thing? not for a large portion of players who would 100% lose interest in the game at that point. so why would ESSENTIALLY removing all procs from the game be any different? nope....

GreenHere

JerBearESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

This is the only correct answer.

Keep the scaling as is for PvE and nerf sets in the venue where they may actually be a problem - in PvP.

the problem with this is a pretty big deal. a HUGE part of what makes this game good is the fact you can buildcraft, be creative with your builds, especially in pvp where min maxing isnt as big a deal, and the key component to buildcraft is usually procs, which are, quite honestly, at the heart of ESO.

now, to simply whack procs with a nerf stick in pvp may certainly solve the problem of proc cheese, but while also actually killing procs altogether. normal everyday theme based creative proc builds, after all, already struggle against stat builds in actuality.

so....would removing all procs from the game be a good thing? not for a large portion of players who would 100% lose interest in the game at that point. so why would ESSENTIALLY removing all procs from the game be any different? nope....

That's a pretty good counter-argument! Thanks for the insight.

As the person who suggested that (in this thread, anyway), I definitely didn't intend for it to be a way to eradicate proc sets from all usefulness. Personally I don't make heavy use of them, but I think they're neat and don't want them essentially (or literally) removed from the game. Adjusting the percentage number up/down as testing shows appropriate seems like the obvious solution, though. I won't pretend to know off the top of my head what the right amount of reduction is best; 50% just sounded good in the example, honestly. Maybe 31.69420% is better, idk. ZOS has lots of seemingly weird integers and percents for numbery things throughout the game (especially when you look at balance changes in patch notes), so I assume it could be calculated in a way that made sense in the end.

But even if nerfed heavily, I don't see players who like procs abandoning them easily; they're still fundamental to their preferred play style. It would take one hell of a nerf to overcome the "free damage / automatic actions" aspect inherent to procs' nature that makes them popular in the first place, I'd think. I'd be surprised if 50% crossed that threshold, but the number is totally negotiable. The idea was mainly just to reduce their efficacy through Battle Spirit, and roll back all this convoluted scaling nonsense that is seemingly throwing things further out of whack. You know, for the good of PvP, and the non-disturbance of PvE.

The proposal is mostly meant as a "Isn't this the easiest way to solve the problem without radically rocking the entire boat?" sort of deal.

AyaDark

To start with was not it your Idea to scale procs from stats ? It was not ZOS idea - some players proud that they write about it before.

It was bad isea from start to start with.

Now you correct one bad idea with other bad idea.

With all such ideas, i even am not interested in pvp becouse in pvp wins not those - who play better - but who cry more to nerf others player class and gear.

And good ideas - are not in respect - we always have ideas like this focused attention too.

We say - DOTs are so small DPS - we make it do 2 times more DPS and than nerf 3 times !!!

So it was small DPS now it is 1.5 times smaller !!! Each time all balance is worst and worst.

People do not understand what they are doing.

So we do not make first idea to some thing good - we just breake 1 thing, than breake another thing.

Untill nothing works good.

The same with proc sets.

Gun - is like proc set - it do not hit more becouse you have more strength !!!

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

NeillMcAttack

I am actually very worried seeing those videos!

ZOS if procs don't scale the same as abilities, please just go back to the drawing board as the OP has stated!

You will break more than you are fixing here. You were right, it is gonna take 6 months!!

@ZOS_BrianWheeler take your time, you are going in the right direction. Just make them all scale with all the same stats as abilities! And if you do want to release like this, you may as well up the damage required, and let them crit!!!

AyaDark

Ok.

lets imagin : Proc will not scale.

But why SORCS proc combo work this way for ages ????

You can put 3 skills that hit with delay the same time.

It is OK ???

Class with same shot combo, mobility and streak - 2 damage shields, pets ???

But why others can not get just the same from sets ?

YandereGirlfriend

JerBearESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

This is the only correct answer.

Keep the scaling as is for PvE and nerf sets in the venue where they may actually be a problem - in PvP.

the problem with this is a pretty big deal. a HUGE part of what makes this game good is the fact you can buildcraft, be creative with your builds, especially in pvp where min maxing isnt as big a deal, and the key component to buildcraft is usually procs, which are, quite honestly, at the heart of ESO.

now, to simply whack procs with a nerf stick in pvp may certainly solve the problem of proc cheese, but while also actually killing procs altogether. normal everyday theme based creative proc builds, after all, already struggle against stat builds in actuality.

so....would removing all procs from the game be a good thing? not for a large portion of players who would 100% lose interest in the game at that point. so why would ESSENTIALLY removing all procs from the game be any different? nope....

I'm not really sure what you're arguing for or against here.

Roleplayers don't PvP (actually, I know of precisely one and he was actually a pretty skilled no-proc ganker) and if they do then their theme builds were never going to be competitive anyway, no matter how hard that procs hit.

Min/maxing is a much larger deal in PvP than it is in PvE if we are talking about the average player (as one casually quests and the other is a competitive player). As such, PvP players put much more thought and care into their builds and weight decisions always for performance rather than aesthetics or theming.

I want to see a 50% Battle Spirit nerf because I want two things, a) I want to keep stat-scaling of proc sets so that they are powerful (if you build for them) in PvE rather than being mostly useless DPS drains for anything beyond Overland content, b) I don't want to see proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP. Nerfing through Battle Spirit (while preserving the changes of this PTS) accomplishes both of those goals.

AyaDark

Proc sets are already effected by battle spirit. It do damage, damage is 1/2 from it.

Why it have to be 1/4 ?

JerBearESO

GreenHere wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

This is the only correct answer.

Keep the scaling as is for PvE and nerf sets in the venue where they may actually be a problem - in PvP.

the problem with this is a pretty big deal. a HUGE part of what makes this game good is the fact you can buildcraft, be creative with your builds, especially in pvp where min maxing isnt as big a deal, and the key component to buildcraft is usually procs, which are, quite honestly, at the heart of ESO.

now, to simply whack procs with a nerf stick in pvp may certainly solve the problem of proc cheese, but while also actually killing procs altogether. normal everyday theme based creative proc builds, after all, already struggle against stat builds in actuality.

so....would removing all procs from the game be a good thing? not for a large portion of players who would 100% lose interest in the game at that point. so why would ESSENTIALLY removing all procs from the game be any different? nope....

That's a pretty good counter-argument! Thanks for the insight.

As the person who suggested that (in this thread, anyway), I definitely didn't intend for it to be a way to eradicate proc sets from all usefulness. Personally I don't make heavy use of them, but I think they're neat and don't want them essentially (or literally) removed from the game. Adjusting the percentage number up/down as testing shows appropriate seems like the obvious solution, though. I won't pretend to know off the top of my head what the right amount of reduction is best; 50% just sounded good in the example, honestly. Maybe 31.69420% is better, idk. ZOS has lots of seemingly weird integers and percents for numbery things throughout the game (especially when you look at balance changes in patch notes), so I assume it could be calculated in a way that made sense in the end.

But even if nerfed heavily, I don't see players who like procs abandoning them easily; they're still fundamental to their preferred play style. It would take one hell of a nerf to overcome the "free damage / automatic actions" aspect inherent to procs' nature that makes them popular in the first place, I'd think. I'd be surprised if 50% crossed that threshold, but the number is totally negotiable. The idea was mainly just to reduce their efficacy through Battle Spirit, and roll back all this convoluted scaling nonsense that is seemingly throwing things further out of whack. You know, for the good of PvP, and the non-disturbance of PvE.

The proposal is mostly meant as a "Isn't this the easiest way to solve the problem without radically rocking the entire boat?" sort of deal.

it would be nice to easily solve the problem, but let's consider: what is the problem again? i think it has been misunderstood very widely. procs in general are not actually stronger than stat sets. they offer 2k dps on average, closer to 1.5k for burst procs, while stats can improve both dps AND healing which translates in pvp to defense. meanwhile, procs ARE generally counterplayable with cleanse and rolldodge in most cases. so the trade off is decently fair and in higher skill play stats will usually win out.

so then why are we needing to address procs? because certain proc cheese builds, taking super high damage stats and slapping a proc or two on, have been able to apply way too much pressure so that the player on the receiving end cannot recover.

this means JUST flat out nerfing procs in any way wont solve the issue of proc cheese without killing procs entirely, unfortunately

JerBearESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're arguing for or against here.

Roleplayers don't PvP (actually, I know of precisely one and he was actually a pretty skilled no-proc ganker) and if they do then their theme builds were never going to be competitive anyway, no matter how hard that procs hit.

Min/maxing is a much larger deal in PvP than it is in PvE if we are talking about the average player (as one casually quests and the other is a competitive player). As such, PvP players put much more thought and care into their builds and weight decisions always for performance rather than aesthetics or theming.

I want to see a 50% Battle Spirit nerf because I want two things, a) I want to keep stat-scaling of proc sets so that they are powerful (if you build for them) in PvE rather than being mostly useless DPS drains for anything beyond Overland content, b) I don't want to see proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP. Nerfing through Battle Spirit (while preserving the changes of this PTS) accomplishes both of those goals.

i do agree making procs viable in pve is a goal, but you need to take an objective look at your pvp goal here. what you suggest WOULD accomplish that goal, but is it a good goal? not exactly, not by itself, because as soon as we dont see "proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP", isn't it because proc sets essentially do not exist in pvp? not viably, for sure!

therefor, this is an inappropriate way of accomplishing said goal.... it's like saying, world peace is a goal. well if everyone is dead, there's no one around to fight, so let's do that.... lol bad way to accomplish goal, that's all

JerBearESO

JerBearESO wrote: »

as soon as soon as "proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP"

wheres the edit button?

GreenHere wrote: »

Haha, the edit button shows up in the lower left corner of a previous post you made, but only after refreshing the page (annoyingly).

thanks! haha i edited this with your quote...from the fuuuutuuuure

Waffennacht

JerBearESO wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

as soon as soon as "proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP"

wheres the edit button?

*as soon as we dont see "proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP"

As long as some classes have to have procs bridge imbalance gaps; you'll always see a high level of procs being used

GreenHere

JerBearESO wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

as soon as soon as "proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP"

wheres the edit button?

*as soon as we dont see "proc sets overwhelm stat-based builds in PvP"

Haha, the edit button shows up in the lower left corner of a previous post you made, but only after refreshing the page (annoyingly).


You have a good point about nerfing procs equally not being fair to the ones that aren't oppressive, though! Knocking down ALL procs to keep the over-performers in-check isn't a good solution either, you're right. I think the solution I'd go to next would be buffing up the "weaker" ones to match the outliers, then find the sweet spot reduction % for Battle Spirit. Sounds workable to me -- in theory, anyway.

Still though, I think I'd be in favor of an X% damage reduction modifier for proc DAMAGE sets (NOT sets like Eternal Vigor, or other stat-procs), at least to test out and see how it plays.

etchedpixels

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Battle Spirit: "Proc Damage reduced by 50%"

This is the only correct answer.

Keep the scaling as is for PvE and nerf sets in the venue where they may actually be a problem - in PvP.

Half of the proc set problem is not the damage (and damage is only part of it), it's the side effects and lack of counters. I don't actually care if mad tinkerer doesn't do huge damage in PvP because it still leaves everyone on their backsides.

In the PvP world everything should have advantages and weaknesses, but there is no anti-proc skill. You can't reflect a proc set, you can't negate a proc set user. If those were fixed the proc gameplay would get far more interesting. Being able to negate proc set magic effects would also slot nicely into all the generic fantasy trope departments. Imagine being able to drop negate or some kind of support skill over an area and kill all proc set effects for 15 seconds, or being able to deploy the right skill and watch in merriment as the mad tinkerer fabricant does a 180 back into the wearers group.

That would actually help PvE too where future dungeon and trial bosses could start doing interesting things to make proc set users life more complicated as a mechanic.

The other concern I have is that the past two updates have basically made shield spamming magicka tanks and infinite health necrotanks totally over the top. Shield spamming tanks will still get all the magicka scaling sets but with extra buffs from the massive magicka pool whilst a 70k necrotank is presumably going to scale heals to stupid with battalion defender as second set ?

TheBonesXXX

Proc scaling as never a good idea, free damage procs (separate from sets that require additional server calculations to function) are a bad bloody idea.

It was a bad idea when original camo hunter was handing out free damage. It was a bad idea when Valkyn was reigning free damage from the sky, it has and will always be a bad bloody idea.

and it'll always be a bad bloody idea.

It was a bad idea when WoW hijacked it and stayed a bad idea. It'll be a bad idea if any MMO adopts it, because it's a terrible idea.

Why? Because if requires zero input from the user and that's just a bad idea.

Good idea: Balance your game class to class and tune the rest of your content around the classes. Why? Because you could have the same exact stats that everything in the game operates off of and you wouldn't have the madness you have now.

"Build Diversity" sounds good, initially. But in reality, having so many sets are a headache and it could've been way easier to make the game just have 1 pieces instead of 3 and 5 pieces.

By trying to make the game have "options", ZOS you just really made it harder than it needed to be.

Foto1

I am in favor of making the damage sets depend on the maximum stamina / magic. these resources are more difficult to accumulate

master_vanargand

Need Proc Damage and Heal set's cap needs to be raised more.
For example, "8000 weapon or magic damage", "40000 stamina or magicka", "50000 health", "33000 armor".

relentless_turnip

master_vanargand wrote: »

Need Proc Damage and Heal set's cap needs to be raised more.
For example, "8000 weapon or magic damage", "40000 stamina or magicka", "50000 health", "33000 armor".

I agree with those numbers tbh 👍

Anonx31st

Tanks should be able to have sets for DPS so they can do solo content like quests without having to spend money on the respect costs, etc. By having a couple DPS sets for tanks, this will get some more people to play as a tank, and as a result, reduce the tank shortage.

Vaoh

Reduce proc set damage/healing/etc by 50-70% in PvP through Battle Spirit. Then let proc sets critically strike so they're viable for PvE.

It doesn't have to be so complicated lol.

doesurmindglow

Vaoh wrote: »

Reduce proc set damage/healing/etc by 50-70% in PvP through Battle Spirit. Then let proc sets critically strike so they're viable for PvE.

It doesn't have to be so complicated lol.

I'd be fine with this, honestly

TheDarkRuler

katorga wrote: »

If they try to "adjust" it or try to balance it for pve and pvp; it just will not work.

This is the sentence. The one and only truth why ZoS screws up balance again and again.
They try to make a solution for PVE (where bosses have millions of HP) and PVP where players with normal health are running around. The current numbers would perhaps be perfectly fine for PVE but bonkers in PVP.

I said this years (!) back: Make a fix number of sets for PVP that focusses on PVP and forbid every PVE set from being used theire. PVP sets for PVP and PVE sets for PVE. End of story, world peace acquired.

Canned_Apples

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

If they try to "adjust" it or try to balance it for pve and pvp; it just will not work.

This is the sentence. The one and only truth why ZoS screws up balance again and again.
They try to make a solution for PVE (where bosses have millions of HP) and PVP where players with normal health are running around. The current numbers would perhaps be perfectly fine for PVE but bonkers in PVP.

I said this years (!) back: Make a fix number of sets for PVP that focusses on PVP and forbid every PVE set from being used theire. PVP sets for PVP and PVE sets for PVE. End of story, world peace acquired.

But then how will they sell expansions to pvp players?
I can't imagine them creating two separate sets, of every weight, for pvp and pve players to farm. I also doubt pve players will like the reduced chance of them getting the gear they want.

The most obvious solution, aside from a flat 25% reduction, would be to attach it to battle spirit, but I don't think the engine is capable of doing that.

Tranquilizer

Sarousse wrote: »

Thank god there will be procless campaigns available.

For sure or just sarcastic ?

Didn't read anything about it in the patch notes and I'm not on the PTS so I can't check.

etchedpixels

Anonx31st wrote: »

Tanks should be able to have sets for DPS so they can do solo content like quests without having to spend money on the respect costs, etc. By having a couple DPS sets for tanks, this will get some more people to play as a tank, and as a result, reduce the tank shortage.

To a point I agree but for most players the classic loads in health build has IMHO been a poor option for some time. If you are not a specialist tank for top end game content it works just fine to build yourself mostly magicka with some health and with the CP into all the tank resists and armour, a few pieces only of heavy gear and some minor tweaks.

Your typical normal dungeon tank already seems to be a dd build with sword/board and a few basic armour changes. Given the dd queues I don't blame people for it - beats fake tanks and is more than good enough.

If you are magicka heavy you can spam shields, you get a massive magicka pool, and good set choices and because you've got partly light armour on and with the right CPs insanely cheap dodge rolls. You can also craft some of the tanky sets in light or mixed form (fortified brass, orgnums etc) or spend a while in maelstrom and farm permafrost. Aside from oblivion damage (which seems to have few sources) a damage shield is effectively extra pop up health. Templar is particularly effective here too because you can keep jabs on the front bar with sword/board.

As you are mostly magicka you can still do lots of damage and wear mothers sorrow/medusa or whatever else is meta of the week out of dungeon.

Except for the necrotank monster it just doesn't seem to be useful to put high health on a tank even in U29 - at least for dungeon content. As for the 80k health necrotanks - the scaling is probably going to make it even stronger.

Glantir

What if they reduce the proc dmg per heavy armor piece?

The correlation between proc dmg and SD/WD is not thought through...
Most stam builds have more WD than magicka have SD
Heavy Armor builds still can have alot of SD/WD....

relentless_turnip

I think if they can't get a scaling level right by the patches release they ought to just disable all free damage/healing sets until u31 in all PvP zones. As they seem to hold a separate tag now it should be reasonably easy for them to do this. Still enabling conditional sets like bsw, clever, briar, seventh, ancient dragonguard etc...

OutLaw_Nynx

Sarousse wrote: »

Thank god there will be procless campaigns available.

Really??

regime211

This is a great change and I hope they keep it this way!