Content Creators Initial Response to Proc set Scaling

Raegwyr

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

You mistake dps numbers with spell/weapon damage. Even a total noob can reach 9k weapon damage on stamplar with good (not bis) gear. It requires no skill except farming to get the gear (and gear for that you can get even from overland which requires no skill).
What is the problem for middle tier player to get more weapon damage, max hp or resist? There is none.
The difference is, noob with 7k weapon damage and 30k max hp will die a lot more and deal less damage then vet with same stats as vets just have more experience and can utilize those stats better.
These proc changes will hurt the middle and low players more then vets as it is great playground to abuse system by players with knowledge. Idea of scalling procs to stats is great but execution is horrible and in current state will punish celling more

JerBearESO

Anonx31st wrote: »

Tanks should be able to have sets for DPS so they can do solo content like quests without having to spend money on the respect costs, etc. By having a couple DPS sets for tanks, this will get some more people to play as a tank, and as a result, reduce the tank shortage.

we actually call this playstyle "bruiser" typically, or "offtank" I have heard as well. In this case, just have a dmg set in your inventory that trades with one of your tank sets. When solo, trade it, when not solo, trade it back. There are even "closet" addons that help with this. but to say that a full tank build should have access to damage is to say a full damage build should have access to tanking, at which point why would anyone run anything but the god tier damage with tanking ability build?

TheBonesXXX

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

If they try to "adjust" it or try to balance it for pve and pvp; it just will not work.

This is the sentence. The one and only truth why ZoS screws up balance again and again.
They try to make a solution for PVE (where bosses have millions of HP) and PVP where players with normal health are running around. The current numbers would perhaps be perfectly fine for PVE but bonkers in PVP.

I said this years (!) back: Make a fix number of sets for PVP that focusses on PVP and forbid every PVE set from being used theire. PVP sets for PVP and PVE sets for PVE. End of story, world peace acquired.

This is the most palpable solution. It should have been done long ago.

JerBearESO

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I said this years (!) back: Make a fix number of sets for PVP that focusses on PVP and forbid every PVE set from being used theire. PVP sets for PVP and PVE sets for PVE. End of story, world peace acquired.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

This is the most palpable solution. It should have been done long ago.

I understand why this kind of "solution" seems inviting, but I have to logically disagree with it being the best solution. I believe it would only serve to flip flop the meta and reduce build variety, which IS the heart of the game, the game's motto being to "play your way".

Consider an example. I have a fun creative BGs build on live. It uses relequens, a set which would no doubt be tossed into the pve group in your solution. So one of my builds just died. That's a HUGE act of maliciousness against me as a player, specifically against what I enjoy about the game, and for what? What result.

I assure you, my relequens build is NOT overpowered toxicity. In a 1v1 I will get blown up before ever stacking it, and it can be cleansed away anyway. In fact, I have to play as a backline dps specifically minding my position with great care in order to get any good results from the build. When I accomplish this, the result is that my frontline can cut through the target's I am focusing more readily, which works well enough in good rounds so that I enjoy the build very much, and the satisfaction of having made it.

So we theoretically nuked my fun (what's the point of any game? FUN!) build so as to...what? Shift the meta! That's all.... It would only shift the meta.

If you "solve" procs being "stronger" than stats, then don't we only shift the meta to stat builds, until finally we need to "solve" stats being "stronger" than procs. And so on. The never ending cycle of the "coinflip conundrum".

etchedpixels

JerBearESO wrote: »

addons that help with this. but to say that a full tank build should have access to damage is to say a full damage build should have access to tanking, at which point why would anyone run anything but the god tier damage with tanking ability build?

It doesn't really work like that today. If you put proc sets on a "proper" tank (ie an old school health tank) you get more dps but you don't get huge dps because you don't have the base stats for it.

If the changes balance out ok so that putting medium dps gear on a tank still gives you 10k dps it ought to be ok but the bigger problem may end up being with healing sets. It's not uncommon for a tank to backbar a suppsoedly healing set.

Sheuib

I think everyone is missing the flaws in these builds. Sure you can get crazy tooltip numbers if you put everything into one stat but one stat does not make a pvp build.

These builds have 700 penetration. Yes 700. Most players are running around with at least 25k resistances. You get a 50% reduction from battle spirit. Probably another 40% reduction from armor. Then the small amounts of reduction from other means like minor protection, etc.

On top of the reduction you also have to consider the fast pace movement of pvp. You hardly see anyone use selene because you can't hit anyone with it. No one stands there to be hit. You might occasionally get lucky with a CC on someone that is out of stamina and can't break. Or, players that are new and just don't know what is coming.

All I am saying is these guys took the builds to extremes that are not really playable. Don't go screaming for changes that are based on unrealistic builds.

Susurrus

Sheuib wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the flaws in these builds. Sure you can get crazy tooltip numbers if you put everything into one stat but one stat does not make a pvp build.

These builds have 700 penetration. Yes 700. Most players are running around with at least 25k resistances. You get a 50% reduction from battle spirit. Probably another 40% reduction from armor. Then the small amounts of reduction from other means like minor protection, etc.

On top of the reduction you also have to consider the fast pace movement of pvp. You hardly see anyone use selene because you can't hit anyone with it. No one stands there to be hit. You might occasionally get lucky with a CC on someone that is out of stamina and can't break. Or, players that are new and just don't know what is coming.

All I am saying is these guys took the builds to extremes that are not really playable. Don't go screaming for changes that are based on unrealistic builds.

Have you personally tested this?

TequilaFire

Raegwyr wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

You mistake dps numbers with spell/weapon damage. Even a total noob can reach 9k weapon damage on stamplar with good (not bis) gear. It requires no skill except farming to get the gear (and gear for that you can get even from overland which requires no skill).
What is the problem for middle tier player to get more weapon damage, max hp or resist? There is none.
The difference is, noob with 7k weapon damage and 30k max hp will die a lot more and deal less damage then vet with same stats as vets just have more experience and can utilize those stats better.
These proc changes will hurt the middle and low players more then vets as it is great playground to abuse system by players with knowledge. Idea of scalling procs to stats is great but execution is horrible and in current state will punish celling more

No you mistake that I was talking about damage stat numbers, not DPS.
Very few noobs can reach 9K WD or worse yet SD and have a viable build. Come on now.

Sheuib

Susurrus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the flaws in these builds. Sure you can get crazy tooltip numbers if you put everything into one stat but one stat does not make a pvp build.

These builds have 700 penetration. Yes 700. Most players are running around with at least 25k resistances. You get a 50% reduction from battle spirit. Probably another 40% reduction from armor. Then the small amounts of reduction from other means like minor protection, etc.

On top of the reduction you also have to consider the fast pace movement of pvp. You hardly see anyone use selene because you can't hit anyone with it. No one stands there to be hit. You might occasionally get lucky with a CC on someone that is out of stamina and can't break. Or, players that are new and just don't know what is coming.

All I am saying is these guys took the builds to extremes that are not really playable. Don't go screaming for changes that are based on unrealistic builds.

Have you personally tested this?

I have been playing the game since it's release and I have the tiger to prove it. I have made more than enough builds to know what works and what doesn't work.

I actually started off in pvp with the idea of using as much spell damage as I could get and it worked when most people were running around in light armor. Then they made enough changes that medium and heavy builds worked really well in cyrodiil and low penetration just didn't work. That is usually the reason new players are always asking why they don't hit hard and get killed in a few seconds.

So, to answer you question, have I tested their specific build? The answer is no. But, I can look at the numbers and know that it isn't playable.

relentless_turnip

Sheuib wrote: »

Susurrus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the flaws in these builds. Sure you can get crazy tooltip numbers if you put everything into one stat but one stat does not make a pvp build.

These builds have 700 penetration. Yes 700. Most players are running around with at least 25k resistances. You get a 50% reduction from battle spirit. Probably another 40% reduction from armor. Then the small amounts of reduction from other means like minor protection, etc.

On top of the reduction you also have to consider the fast pace movement of pvp. You hardly see anyone use selene because you can't hit anyone with it. No one stands there to be hit. You might occasionally get lucky with a CC on someone that is out of stamina and can't break. Or, players that are new and just don't know what is coming.

All I am saying is these guys took the builds to extremes that are not really playable. Don't go screaming for changes that are based on unrealistic builds.

Have you personally tested this?

I have been playing the game since it's release and I have the tiger to prove it. I have made more than enough builds to know what works and what doesn't work.

I actually started off in pvp with the idea of using as much spell damage as I could get and it worked when most people were running around in light armor. Then they made enough changes that medium and heavy builds worked really well in cyrodiil and low penetration just didn't work. That is usually the reason new players are always asking why they don't hit hard and get killed in a few seconds.

So, to answer you question, have I tested their specific build? The answer is no. But, I can look at the numbers and know that it isn't playable.

I would say that it is a viable build for some and to be honest you wouldn't lose much by throwing on recovery glyph. The low pen doesn't even matter if 3 procs scaling this high all land at once. Heavy armor builds have always had low pen, but are equally viable in PvP. Many would argue more so.

Raegwyr

TequilaFire wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who can reach high damage numbers are the ones that call for the cap to be raised.
So that would mean once again you would be making elites more powerful and middle tier players less powerful.
Middle and low tier players can't reach those damage numbers.

You mistake dps numbers with spell/weapon damage. Even a total noob can reach 9k weapon damage on stamplar with good (not bis) gear. It requires no skill except farming to get the gear (and gear for that you can get even from overland which requires no skill).
What is the problem for middle tier player to get more weapon damage, max hp or resist? There is none.
The difference is, noob with 7k weapon damage and 30k max hp will die a lot more and deal less damage then vet with same stats as vets just have more experience and can utilize those stats better.
These proc changes will hurt the middle and low players more then vets as it is great playground to abuse system by players with knowledge. Idea of scalling procs to stats is great but execution is horrible and in current state will punish celling more

No you mistake that I was talking about damage stat numbers, not DPS.
Very few noobs can reach 9K WD or worse yet SD and have a viable build. Come on now.

It is easy if you build for it, on stamplar i could go up to 13k with all buffs active (and no proc sets ofc). Just checked and with clever alchemist and nma you got 9,5k on stamplar while glyph and alchemist is active. With weapon monster set and some optymalization you should be able to push for 10k but not worth giving up the defences and pen tho (one piece kragh and one bloodspawn currently). Mundus is lover, glyphs mix of hp and stam, on jewelery two infused weapon and one infused stam regen. All medium well fitted/impen. All of that is pretty basic stuff to get so what is the difficulty? You can replace new moon with proc and depends on proc you should be able to easily reach 8k

TheBonesXXX

JerBearESO wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I said this years (!) back: Make a fix number of sets for PVP that focusses on PVP and forbid every PVE set from being used theire. PVP sets for PVP and PVE sets for PVE. End of story, world peace acquired.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

This is the most palpable solution. It should have been done long ago.

I understand why this kind of "solution" seems inviting, but I have to logically disagree with it being the best solution. I believe it would only serve to flip flop the meta and reduce build variety, which IS the heart of the game, the game's motto being to "play your way".

Consider an example. I have a fun creative BGs build on live. It uses relequens, a set which would no doubt be tossed into the pve group in your solution. So one of my builds just died. That's a HUGE act of maliciousness against me as a player, specifically against what I enjoy about the game, and for what? What result.

I assure you, my relequens build is NOT overpowered toxicity. In a 1v1 I will get blown up before ever stacking it, and it can be cleansed away anyway. In fact, I have to play as a backline dps specifically minding my position with great care in order to get any good results from the build. When I accomplish this, the result is that my frontline can cut through the target's I am focusing more readily, which works well enough in good rounds so that I enjoy the build very much, and the satisfaction of having made it.

So we theoretically nuked my fun (what's the point of any game? FUN!) build so as to...what? Shift the meta! That's all.... It would only shift the meta.

If you "solve" procs being "stronger" than stats, then don't we only shift the meta to stat builds, until finally we need to "solve" stats being "stronger" than procs. And so on. The never ending cycle of the "coinflip conundrum".

It is not a huge act of maliciousness against anyone to simplify balancing. This game is over loaded with sets as it is.

"Build Diversity" sounds great, but when it comes down to it, it has been a nightmare that needs to end.

Since they decide to separate PvP from PvE, then it's only logical that they do it completely. -or- unseparated PvE from PvP and have players and mobs have the same set of rulesets.

There's no "balance philosophy", there's just correct math.

katorga

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Susurrus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the flaws in these builds. Sure you can get crazy tooltip numbers if you put everything into one stat but one stat does not make a pvp build.

These builds have 700 penetration. Yes 700. Most players are running around with at least 25k resistances. You get a 50% reduction from battle spirit. Probably another 40% reduction from armor. Then the small amounts of reduction from other means like minor protection, etc.

On top of the reduction you also have to consider the fast pace movement of pvp. You hardly see anyone use selene because you can't hit anyone with it. No one stands there to be hit. You might occasionally get lucky with a CC on someone that is out of stamina and can't break. Or, players that are new and just don't know what is coming.

All I am saying is these guys took the builds to extremes that are not really playable. Don't go screaming for changes that are based on unrealistic builds.

Have you personally tested this?

I have been playing the game since it's release and I have the tiger to prove it. I have made more than enough builds to know what works and what doesn't work.

I actually started off in pvp with the idea of using as much spell damage as I could get and it worked when most people were running around in light armor. Then they made enough changes that medium and heavy builds worked really well in cyrodiil and low penetration just didn't work. That is usually the reason new players are always asking why they don't hit hard and get killed in a few seconds.

So, to answer you question, have I tested their specific build? The answer is no. But, I can look at the numbers and know that it isn't playable.

I would say that it is a viable build for some and to be honest you wouldn't lose much by throwing on recovery glyph. The low pen doesn't even matter if 3 procs scaling this high all land at once. Heavy armor builds have always had low pen, but are equally viable in PvP. Many would argue more so.

Well shoot, just use ransack in your weave to proc the sets. 9K pen there. Sharpened weapon, another 1200K.

The builds are immanently playable, and will do gobs of damage. Especially on hit and run or gank builds.

The unkillable builds will be the health/crimson ones.

A lot of these builds work today, they will just get better. And that is why people are concerned.

StarOfElyon

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Proc scaling as never a good idea, free damage procs (separate from sets that require additional server calculations to function) are a bad bloody idea.

It was a bad idea when original camo hunter was handing out free damage. It was a bad idea when Valkyn was reigning free damage from the sky, it has and will always be a bad bloody idea.

and it'll always be a bad bloody idea.

It was a bad idea when WoW hijacked it and stayed a bad idea. It'll be a bad idea if any MMO adopts it, because it's a terrible idea.

Why? Because if requires zero input from the user and that's just a bad idea.

Good idea: Balance your game class to class and tune the rest of your content around the classes. Why? Because you could have the same exact stats that everything in the game operates off of and you wouldn't have the madness you have now.

I wholeheartedly agree.

"Build Diversity" sounds good, initially. But in reality, having so many sets are a headache and it could've been way easier to make the game just have 1 pieces instead of 3 and 5 pieces.

By trying to make the game have "options", ZOS you just really made it harder than it needed to be.

I appreciate them trying to provide "options" but their choice to create proc sets feel gimmicky and the sets completely take the game out of the player's hands (how am I supposed to fight proc sets that hit/heal two times when I'm using stat based sets and can only hit/heal once at a time).

I have to make an effort to hit them, they only need to make sure their set procs.

JerBearESO

StarOfElyon wrote: »

(how am I supposed to fight proc sets that hit/heal two times when I'm using stat based sets and can only hit/heal once at a time).

I have to make an effort to hit them, they only need to make sure their set procs.

with stats vs procs, you SHOULD win the matchup outright in most cases on live, because procs do have counterplay, with knowledge base you should know the timing, and the fact of the matter is, as soon as you are counterplaying procs, you are fighting an opponent who is about 10% weaker than you stats wise on average. even when you don't counterplay the procs, you are then fighting an opponent who is usually the same overall power level as you with the procs filling in that 10% gap

the real issue with procs is how to counterplay certain cheese setups, like that nasty sorc build using frenzied momentum, or the DoT nightblades picking on anyone not running a cleanse. remember, proc cheese started this nightmare, not procs in general

Anonx31st

JerBearESO wrote: »

Anonx31st wrote: »

Tanks should be able to have sets for DPS so they can do solo content like quests without having to spend money on the respect costs, etc. By having a couple DPS sets for tanks, this will get some more people to play as a tank, and as a result, reduce the tank shortage.

we actually call this playstyle "bruiser" typically, or "offtank" I have heard as well. In this case, just have a dmg set in your inventory that trades with one of your tank sets. When solo, trade it, when not solo, trade it back. There are even "closet" addons that help with this. but to say that a full tank build should have access to damage is to say a full damage build should have access to tanking, at which point why would anyone run anything but the god tier damage with tanking ability build?

And this dmg set that you speak of as a tank is going to be one of the sets that now scale with health lol.

TheBonesXXX

JerBearESO wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

(how am I supposed to fight proc sets that hit/heal two times when I'm using stat based sets and can only hit/heal once at a time).

I have to make an effort to hit them, they only need to make sure their set procs.

with stats vs procs, you SHOULD win the matchup outright in most cases on live, because procs do have counterplay, with knowledge base you should know the timing, and the fact of the matter is, as soon as you are counterplaying procs, you are fighting an opponent who is about 10% weaker than you stats wise on average. even when you don't counterplay the procs, you are then fighting an opponent who is usually the same overall power level as you with the procs filling in that 10% gap

the real issue with procs is how to counterplay certain cheese setups, like that nasty sorc build using frenzied momentum, or the DoT nightblades picking on anyone not running a cleanse. remember, proc cheese started this nightmare, not procs in general

I do not agree, you get the correct procs with other lined burst and a proc set up will never lose, one stun on a timed burst is going to just one shot you; because it doesn't matter if one or two skills miss, but the other free damage abilities that do hit you are going to hit you in this damage scaling meta and there's simply no counter play good enough to justify them being in the game.

A beginner can learn how to line burst and do well with it, because it's low input and high reward. Theres not much requirement for it, add procs to the mix and one lag spike will put some entry level player as the same playing field as a seasoned veteran.

That's' not skill based, that's the game doing everything for you.

So there's a few problems being exposed here. Lining burst is easy input, low risk, and high reward and procs would just make it that much more effective. Illustrating that there's a serious design flaw in the way PvP and the game plays.

katorga

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

(how am I supposed to fight proc sets that hit/heal two times when I'm using stat based sets and can only hit/heal once at a time).

I have to make an effort to hit them, they only need to make sure their set procs.

with stats vs procs, you SHOULD win the matchup outright in most cases on live, because procs do have counterplay, with knowledge base you should know the timing, and the fact of the matter is, as soon as you are counterplaying procs, you are fighting an opponent who is about 10% weaker than you stats wise on average. even when you don't counterplay the procs, you are then fighting an opponent who is usually the same overall power level as you with the procs filling in that 10% gap

the real issue with procs is how to counterplay certain cheese setups, like that nasty sorc build using frenzied momentum, or the DoT nightblades picking on anyone not running a cleanse. remember, proc cheese started this nightmare, not procs in general

I do not agree, you get the correct procs with other lined burst and a proc set up will never lose, one stun on a timed burst is going to just one shot you.....

Procs are timed burst, 100% certain to land everyone if off cool down. That is why they are so effective.

Instead of 3-4 attacks landing in a single GCD, now you have 6-7. They equal a 1s 200% damage buff.

Wolf_Eye

relentless_turnip wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Need Proc Damage and Heal set's cap needs to be raised more.
For example, "8000 weapon or magic damage", "40000 stamina or magicka", "50000 health", "33000 armor".

I agree with those numbers tbh 👍

I'm not sure about weapon damage, but how on earth can you reach 8000 magic damage?? That seems impossible.

IxSTALKERxI

This is probably the most unbalanced thing I've seen hit the PTS in the last 5 years lmao.

Urzigurumash

katorga wrote: »

Procs are timed burst, 100% certain to land everyone if off cool down. That is why they are so effective.

Instead of 3-4 attacks landing in a single GCD, now you have 6-7. They equal a 1s 200% damage buff.

So, at least on the damage side of the equation, that's an easy explanation as to why we see such a difference in offensive potential, generally, between classes with delayed burst and without in No Proc Cyrodiil, no? Of course, classes with it can use them also.

But, they can't if they need some other set to give some bonus that a class without access to Delayed Burst already has.

This all fits in with my theory that if DKs were buffed to be better tanks in PvP, things would fall into place regarding them in other roles, rather than just converting them to be more like natural DD classes. Maybe I'm wrong.

StamPlar_1976

regime211 wrote: »

This is a great change and I hope they keep it this way!

I totally agree.

Urzigurumash

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I appreciate them trying to provide "options" but their choice to create proc sets feel gimmicky and the sets completely take the game out of the player's hands (how am I supposed to fight proc sets that hit/heal two times when I'm using stat based sets and can only hit/heal once at a time).

I have to make an effort to hit them, they only need to make sure their set procs.

Have you been playing in Cyrodiil though Star? It might provide some more perspective on this. Procs have their ups and downs.

ExistingRug61

katorga wrote: »

Just back it out completely and start over.

Seriously. This is worse than the way it is now. If they try to "adjust" it or try to balance it for pve and pvp; it just will not work.

Yep.

Especially given procs can’t crit and crit is king in pve but comparatively weak in pvp - as long as these factors are the case balancing procs between pve and pvp is not possible or.

Basically, as long as procs scale differently to damage abilities it will be very hard to balance procs versus abilities. Prior to the change procs only scaled with buffs, cp and pen. Now damage is added to the mix. However unlike abilities they still don’t factor in stat, crit chance or crit damage, meaning these can largely be ignored when using procs as opposed to stat builds, potentially meaning proc builds didnt (and to a degree still don’t) have to make the same trade offs as stat builds.

I’m not certain it’s the best solution, but ZOS has spent years making it so there is reasonable balance in how you have to build for abilities for both stamina and magicka when using all stats. So rather than inventing a new scaling strategy using only some stats, why not just follow the established method using all the stats which at least seems to have some semblance of build balance. Would also somewhat address the build disparities between stamina and magicka in terms of weapon vs spell damage and also stamina vs magicka.

NeillMcAttack

Without huge changes 3 things are guaranteed next patch; 64 points into health will be meta, Health scaling heals become far more broken than before, and procs won’t just be an option, they will be mandatory.

neferpitou73

I've only tested it for VD but the scaling appears to be linear. I'm not sure why they went with that instead of having diminishing returns set in at some point, say around the current proc value.

Of course, the linear scaling makes it easier to fix. Decrease the slope and increase the intercept, so they still get the base proc damage they want but don't get these insane tooltips.

relentless_turnip

Thought I'd add this one 😂👍

https://youtu.be/MymYuAqIE5k

Marcus_Thracius

These proc numbers are good for PVE
Keep PVP PROC FREE !!!
Just hand pick a few more sets to add to the list and everyone is happy

Ocelot9x

And you guys haven't see the torug/heartland build:
40k hp
35k res
4300 spell damage
1500 base recovery
Aaaaand 13k tooltip weapon glyph LOL

Wolf_Eye

Ocelot9x wrote: »

And you guys haven't see the torug/heartland build:
40k hp
35k res
4300 spell damage
1500 base recovery
Aaaaand 13k tooltip weapon glyph LOL

This is probably a really stupid question, and I apologize ahead of time.

But what is a tooltip and how do I see it?

My best guess is that a tooltip is the little description that items have on them when you hover over them.

But if so, then I have never seen a weapon glyph that said it was worth 13K, so I must surely be misunderstanding something here.