The core issue of PTS for PvP - proc scaling and free stats

LightYagami · April 2021

Artorias24 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

You dont have to cheese out anything. I am using a normal build for necro. 2x Balorgh, Clever Alchemist Backbar, 4x With-Knight and Vate 2h Maul frontbar. Here is the Tooltip after using Clever proc, full vate proc, Berserker enchant and DB at 120 Ult.

17k already and its not cheesed Out. I am Imperial, could be Orc for even more WP damage, its a sharp Maul, could be Nirn Greatsword for even more WP. I am in my house so i also dont have c attack. Pretty sure with Nirn Greatsword, Orc and c attack i can pass the 20k TT

Orcs aren't the high damage race anymore with the nerf in their physical damage racial passive.

relentless_turnip · April 2021

LightYagami wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

You dont have to cheese out anything. I am using a normal build for necro. 2x Balorgh, Clever Alchemist Backbar, 4x With-Knight and Vate 2h Maul frontbar. Here is the Tooltip after using Clever proc, full vate proc, Berserker enchant and DB at 120 Ult.

17k already and its not cheesed Out. I am Imperial, could be Orc for even more WP damage, its a sharp Maul, could be Nirn Greatsword for even more WP. I am in my house so i also dont have c attack. Pretty sure with Nirn Greatsword, Orc and c attack i can pass the 20k TT

Orcs aren't the high damage race anymore with the nerf in their physical damage racial passive.

They are in terms of proc scaling as max stam isn't taken into account.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

These skills you mentioned are doing a fraction of the damage comparatively to how they scale. How much health would you need to invest to get blazing shield to hit your opponent for the same as crimson on the PTS? If they were perhaps mirrored I could totally understand. I know that it has a 8 sec cooldown and that should be accounted for, but in PvP that is largely irrelevant, not so in PVE as they should equate to the same values.

I am not laying down any sort of law I am stating a precedent that has existed in RPGs from the begining and it is my opinion that these basic principles are adhered to for both simplicity in understanding and balance. I am not saying that all outliers are wrong(despite my broad statement), but in this particular instance and in the context of this discussion of sets like crimson. I believe scaling with health is the wrong way to balance this set or at the very least crimson needs a cap and a higher requirement.

Right, all understood. I didn't mean to be pedantic, and you are right, I can't think of another example before Blazing Shield of this sort of thing in RPGs or TES.

Crimson is and was obviously overtuned in its value. Leeching and Bahara's have never been a problem whatosever and they have the same sort of mechanism, don't they? Glorious Defender too no?

Rebuke and Harbinger, those are a different story. I think those two should scale off defensive stats, and well enough to be impactful, that's another conversation though.

And yes, Blazing Shield should absolutely, in every way, be able to hit at least as hard as any similar set function, and probably harder.

katorga · April 2021

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=334461

Build above is 5 med 2 heavy, 2x engine guardian, 5x spriggan, 2 trainee, vat 2h, malacath. It's not hard to reach 6k weapon dmg fully buffed. I also have 2k stamina regen as woodelf with artaeum, so sustain isn't an issue.

You can test stuff to see what I mean. It's not hard with build editor.

Yep, I have a Dunmer templar build in no-proc Cyro with 40+ K health and 7K weapon damage.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

You dont have to cheese out anything. I am using a normal build for necro. 2x Balorgh, Clever Alchemist Backbar, 4x With-Knight and Vate 2h Maul frontbar. Here is the Tooltip after using Clever proc, full vate proc, Berserker enchant and DB at 120 Ult.

17k already and its not cheesed Out. I am Imperial, could be Orc for even more WP damage, its a sharp Maul, could be Nirn Greatsword for even more WP. I am in my house so i also dont have c attack. Pretty sure with Nirn Greatsword, Orc and c attack i can pass the 20k TT

Orcs aren't the high damage race anymore with the nerf in their physical damage racial passive.

They are in terms of proc scaling as max stam isn't taken into account.

Yep. This is a kick in the teeth for any race other than Orc, Dunmer Altmer. Completely unbalances their last round of racial changes.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

StaticWave wrote: »

Do you see the issue?

Yeah, I see what you meant now. I don't know why the "DD" procs didn't get dual-stat scaling. Can you come up with numbers that you think would be balanced? I know that's not exactly easy to do, but, comparing like, the Vat 2h to Onslaught, or something, with single stat scaling, or to D Swing with dual.

Draevik · April 2021

.... Battlespirit now lowers all damage of gearsets with damage effects by half their amount.

FIXED lol. This would work in theory but it would ruin some procs that are only okay to begin with.

They just need to adjust the most absurdly powerful downwards. Like Zaan's is still a death sentence if you get caught with it. I have got hit for 18 and 20k the past week.

Viewsfrom6ix · April 2021

What about adding "half all proc effects" to Battle Spirit?

Brrrofski · April 2021

ZOS....

Forget all these changes to proc sets.

Put it back to how it was, and just nerf crimson, vat 2h and destro, syvaras etc

It was a handful of sets causing issue.

Just nerf them and then actually be careful with new sets.

It's that easy.

Rex-Umbra · April 2021

OP I agree there is a problem but disagree with your solution. Instead the I propose they put soft are hard caps on the max damage this will make Hybrids more viable as these new procs once again force going all out into one resource or damage type.

Also Spell damage is much harder to reach the cap than Weapon Damage.

JerBearESO · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

another tremendous issue with proc scaling is that no matter how you look at it, a player wanting to build around procs will have to go down specific linear build paths, invalidating the whole purpose.... you will NEED to go a wep/spell damage race, you will NEED to take infused wep/spell damage jewelry. you will NEED to use nirnhoned 2hand/dualWield setups. Kinda losing the purpose of THE GAME....

Do you think this particular issue would be reconciled if all of the procs got Resource+Damage scaling the way skills do

would it soften the issue? perhaps slightly. but solve it? no I don't believe so. it comes down to the fact that an attempt to solve an issue related to interacting multiplicative values by adding even more multiplicative values will not work, and will result in CONSTANT revisiting of the issue. with scaling, either you can build higher than the threshold with certain cheese builds, or legitimately balanced proc builds cannot reach the threshold either at all or at least without sacrificing too much to maintain any semblance of viability, or...BOTH. so it's a really bad attempt at a solution unfortunately.

I would like to point out something I feel players are missing. proc builds, in general, are not imbalanced on live. specific CHEESE proc builds and TANK proc builds are, while legitimate proc builds struggle to keep up with stat builds in all honestly, because they lose damage AND healing potential to gain their proc.

so CHEESE and TANK proc builds need to be solved, and with the pts change, CHEESE and TANK proc builds got huge buffs while legit proc builds got nuked.... this by itself should say enough to keep us from ever going down this road

Dunning_Kruger · April 2021

if you think they are fixing procs ; haha oh boi if nothing changes this will be the worst procs have ever been in the history of this game.

JerBearESO · April 2021

Draevik wrote: »

.... Battlespirit now lowers all damage of gearsets with damage effects by half their amount.

FIXED lol. This would work in theory but it would ruin some procs that are only okay to begin with.

They just need to adjust the most absurdly powerful downwards. Like Zaan's is still a death sentence if you get caught with it. I have got hit for 18 and 20k the past week.

this only works if your objective is to remove procs from pvp entirely..... at what point do we even take procs if this were to go through? we wouldnt...at all....

forzajuve212 · April 2021

Elo106 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

1: proc sets should scale with both s/d and max resource pool to avoid any mag/stam discrepancy.

^This
far to many people just treat spell damage and weapon damage the same, or max stats.

Max Stamina and spell damage are harder to stack than max magicka and weapon damage. Procs shouldnt treat them the same

this

Aliyavana · April 2021

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Merforum · April 2021

Artorias24 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

You dont have to cheese out anything. I am using a normal build for necro. 2x Balorgh, Clever Alchemist Backbar, 4x With-Knight and Vate 2h Maul frontbar. Here is the Tooltip after using Clever proc, full vate proc, Berserker enchant and DB at 120 Ult.

17k already and its not cheesed Out. I am Imperial, could be Orc for even more WP damage, its a sharp Maul, could be Nirn Greatsword for even more WP. I am in my house so i also dont have c attack. Pretty sure with Nirn Greatsword, Orc and c attack i can pass the 20k TT

That is cheesed out to the max, Get away from the trial dummy, and go into imperial city to see what the actual numbers would be, you need battle spirit and no-cp to have REAL numbers. This is really insane because most normal/casual people who use 1 monster set and 1 proc set in PVE with all s/w dmg enchants/glyphs are looking at maybe 3.5K w/s dmg max I checked literally every FUN build I have will be taking a 50% decrease in all procs.

My recommendation is that if they are staying with the scaling idea which has + and -, they MUST SEPARATE THE SCALE for PVE and PVP. For instance, PVE to get same effecvt on live w/s dmg should be 3-4K only then in PVP make it 6K for all I care (although people will complain literally no matter what in PVP). Also the scaling for stats is a bit high, even my healers sit at around 31K so winter respite is like 150% nerf. And for Tank/dps we have literall like 2 sets in whole game with these changes. I can adapt. I think ZOS is smart enough to run the actual numbers and hopefully will completely ignore all PVPers making exaggerated claims, and NOT make any more nerfs to PVE.

Stevie6 · April 2021

Swing the nerf bat on every item / armor set for PVP but leave it as is for PVE. Let the new players and those that can’t do high dps a chance at making a viable build / play style for several months or longer. PVP should never dictate what happens in PVE. I’m sure there are several players tired of constant nerfs / changes every three months to their builds.

DEVS keep PVP and PVE separated finally. Enough is enough. These sets will help raise the floor for average Joe in pve content. DPS might go up a little but not outstandingly. Most average Joe players will have between 2k to 4K weapon damage in any case. Being a solo player, I don’t look at dps, but rather special affects, monster screaming, etc. if I can kill something with a new set 10 seconds faster, that will help a lot.

If it gets average Joe player into better content, I’m all for it. If you can get average Joe player hitting 25 to 40k of dps with proc sets, etc that’s great. If it raises the ceiling to 200k dps, I could care less. I’m not in competition with anybody but myself. Players should build themselves up and be powerful at lvl 50 cp160 and not feel weak as a kitten. Also, Devs average Joe player wants to make heavy attack build viable once again. Twitch mouse/kb is not an option for many players. We want fun, not work. Other players can do twitch m/kb (in most cases good internet and no lag) and are great at it. I’m happy for you! It doesn’t work for me and not my play style.

Susurrus · April 2021

Stevie6 wrote: »

Swing the nerf bat on every item / armor set for PVP but leave it as is for PVE. Let the new players and those that can’t do high dps a chance at making a viable build / play style for several months or longer. PVP should never dictate what happens in PVE. I’m sure there are several players tired of constant nerfs / changes every three months to their builds.

DEVS keep PVP and PVE separated finally. Enough is enough. These sets will help raise the floor for average Joe in pve content. DPS might go up a little but not outstandingly. Most average Joe players will have between 2k to 4K weapon damage in any case. Being a solo player, I don’t look at dps, but rather special affects, monster screaming, etc. if I can kill something with a new set 10 seconds faster, that will help a lot.

If it gets average Joe player into better content, I’m all for it. If you can get average Joe player hitting 25 to 40k of dps with proc sets, etc that’s great. If it raises the ceiling to 200k dps, I could care less. I’m not in competition with anybody but myself. Players should build themselves up and be powerful at lvl 50 cp160 and not feel weak as a kitten. Also, Devs average Joe player wants to make heavy attack build viable once again. Twitch mouse/kb is not an option for many players. We want fun, not work. Other players can do twitch m/kb (in most cases good internet and no lag) and are great at it. I’m happy for you! It doesn’t work for me and not my play style.

Well, that's the problem right there.

How do you balance the game around the casual who wants to destroy everything as if it is a single player game and look at cool animations with the PVP guy who wants to win because it makes him feel good to be better at something than others, and the end game raider who wants to feel acomplished by doing something hard?

And more so, how do you do it when members of many of these communities hate eachother? So many posts on these forums echo these narcissistic lines: "I want it this way, your opinion doesn't matter."

You might care less if your casual dps is 200k but others would care a lot.

But if you want a game balanced for solo players.... play a solo game. An MMO designed for a lone person to solo a 12 person trial is no longer an MMO.