PTS Update 30 - Feedback Thread for Companions

crazepdx

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

Bastian makes a great tank. "7 BEST Companion Builds For ESO Blackwood"

Does HTM pay you to post his videos? That seems to be all you do in response to the overwhelming feedback that companions are lackluster.

Bastian does not make a "great" tank and 15 seconds of footage and a build from a content creator doesn't change that. Even on the latest PTS, although companions seem a bit smarter on the back end of things, they still seriously lack survivability. And now with roll dodges limited to 2 per FIGHT, any fight that takes over 20 seconds is basically 100% kill rate for a companion no matter their build.

Further feedback for ZOS: Ultimates are still janky and do not appear to work consistently. In addition, are companions losing their ult gain upon death? Is this intended? They really should retain it if so. They die so much you can almost never get an ult off.

@Mysticman You do realize @HackTheMinotaur showed that even he had to work to keep Bastian alive while using him as a tank. This on some of the easiest bosses to solo. However more importantly Hack and people like you actually hurt the overall community. Him by making the videos where he purposefully put them in the best possible circumstances to sell them for ZOS, you for passing that video everywhere someone brings up valid concerns regarding the Companions in an attempt to get the problems fixed prior to release.
As long as they are getting pre-sales and hype while releasing mediocre or broken material, they don't care. They make money either way. ZOS has shown this time and time again. So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

ADarklore

ZOS: It's one thing to keep the Companion damage low... which I don't agree with because they are NOT "pets" according to how they were described initially... yet if that's the direction you're heading, they should absolutely have higher health and mitigation if you're going to treat them as pets. Currently pets are pretty much immune to AOE's and yet, Companions are not. So we have low Companion DPS to make them comparable to pets and yet much, much worse survivability when compared with pets. Which is it ZOS... they are glorified pets or not? If they are, then give them the same damage mitigation as pets, if not, give them higher DPS to at least compensate for their extremely low survivability.

Xebov

Mysticman wrote: »

]Bastian makes a great tank.

The video you linked perfectly shows the problems.

First you have to spend days or weeks to level your compagnion and grind the guilds to unlock the skills. Lets not forget that you also have to get your hands on the high tier gear in the right traits that nearly never drops.

Then you can turn your compagnion into a role.
You can make him a ranged DD that works only as long as you keep bosses or heavy hitters far enought away so he doesnt get hit and killed. Of couse you might have to support with heals. Melee DD is impossible to make due to this.
You can turn him into a healer that works only as long as you keep bosses or heavy hitters far enought away so he doesnt get hit and killed. Of couse you might have to support with heals.
You can turn him into a tank that only works on a small array of bosses that dont have any bad or high damage mechanics. Of course you have to heavily support him to keep him alive.

Even at the maximum geared and skilled level, that takes alot of efford to get, they are unable to maintain themselves while filling the role. They always rely on player support.

Riptide

So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

Not to mention the angst it will create from people who buy it, play it, hit their head against the wall and begin the despise the company.

Really overland being such a pushover and not implementing a vet mode, which has been requested in countless threads since the pre closed beta in my opinion is why they are trapped into making companions anemic in the extreme. When you can light attack through 85% of the game, why of course it is impossible to introduce companions that are meaningful.

Elvenheart

The thing that really needs to be changed is how we get companion gear. There’s enough grind to get the skill lines. We don’t need more grind for companion gear. It makes zero sense why it should be rare and hard to get. It should be plentiful and easy to get, not something that will break some player’s banks and make other players filthy rich on at the guild traders.

Lugaldu

People should probably just stay busy with the companions a little longer. If after 3 days all players have a maximum of companions equipment, the incentive is gone.

ajkb78

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. Using Mirri again, again in the tank role and with just me as a dps and her. I was a magicka warden this time, about 1400CP allocated to match my build on PS4 live, and the same sets I use for real - MS, Siroria, 2 crit pieces. I started off not slotting a heal but after a while replaced back bar inner light with polar wind. Enchanted growth might have been a better option with hindsight.

She actually tanked nFG1 without dying at all. GG Mirri!

She did manage nFG2 but it was hard and she died quite a bit. Mephala's Fang was fine, Gamyne Bandu was a struggle. She actually tanked the boss pretty well, but her damage was really low because I'd put her in the tankiest gear I could, so she struggled to do much damage to the chaining adds when they pinned me. Interestingly they never pinned her, even though when I'm tanking it in a normal group they very often pin me. Are companions immune to certain mechanics I wonder? So to survive the pin phase I had to overcast DOTs to ensure there were at least a couple in place when the adds appeared. Usually orb and the explosion at the end of unstable wall did most of the damage. One good point was that even when pinned you can still use the companion command tool to force Mirri (and the bear) to attack one of the adds rather than carry on hitting the boss.

She managed the first couple of bosses of nCOA2 but couldn't stand the heat when we got to Hovantud and died every time.

She still can't beat the Taskmaster second boss in normal Cauldron.

I think she would have done quite a lot better with a player healer to keep her alive: even though she had some healing skills the cooldowns were too long to be helpful. Perhaps I could have used more quickened gear but the base cooldowns are so long that the amount of quickened gear needed to make skills useful leaves little room for any tailoring to their role. It feels like the base cooldowns should almost all be cut in half. The sword n board taunt is ok but pretty much all the others have far too long a cooldown, especially spammable type skills for a dd role companion.

Their ability to respond to mechanics (both generic basic mechanics and fight specific ones) still needs a lot of work too. If it's too late for Blackmoor then certainly for the Q3 DLC or even an incremental patch, as I think in their current form they'll be pretty disappointing for the players they're intended to appeal to. The change to only 2 dodge rolls per fight is overkill: instead, they should have been rubber-banded so that after a dodge roll they attempt to move back towards the boss if they move out of range, or if they're out of range for an overdue skill like taunt. They also urgently need to learn how to walk out of ground based AOEs. Overall they seem OK at dealing with incoming direct damage, at least on normal difficulty, but terrible at dealing with DOTs, either by healing through them or by just stepping out of stupid. And in the longer term, ideally for the Q3 DLC, they ought to be programmed with the fight specific mechanics that you'd expect a player to be able to cope with: be able to stand on the pressure plate in Direfrost, be able to unpin a player (I forgot to test her in nCOH2 but she should be able to use the "Free Ally" synergy on Ruzozulmpaloz (or whatever that boss is called...)). There aren't really a huge amount of specific mechanics in base game dungeons. There are quite a few in DLC dungeons and trials of course: not all of them matter as not every player always has to be able to do every mechanic, but if companions can't do things like interrupt Mylenne Moon Caller, stay in the moving bat circle during the Lady Thorn fight then they're kind of useless, and if they can't do things like use the Lord Warden's portals at the right time (and avoid them at other times) then they're not just useless but will likely wipe the group. Yes it's a lot of detailed extra work, but it's necessary if people are going to love companions.

Dragonredux

ajkb78 wrote: »

Interestingly they never pinned her, even though when I'm tanking it in a normal group they very often pin me. Are companions immune to certain mechanics I wonder? .

At the very least, I can say yes Companions are immune to mechanics targeting player or a specific players. In Falkreath Hold for instance, Bastain didn't get targeted by Cernunnon's ice AoE when he usually does it to every player so they don't stack on each other, there's been other similar instances as well. I assume so they can't screw you over because they don't have the best AI to begin with, but I think it safe to assume that any mechanic they don't involve targeting a player, they'll be taking a dirt nap.
'

HumbleThaumaturge

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

1. On the Companion Menu under Skills, Fighter Guild, it says "Complete a Fighters Guild daily quest to unlock this skill tree."

My new Companion (Mirri) and I completed a Fighters Guild daily quest, but Mirri did not get the Companion's "Fighters Guild" skill tree. Maybe there is some other requirement?

2. On the Companion Menu under Skills, Mages Guild, it says "Complete a Mages Guild daily quest to unlock this skill tree."

My new Companion (Mirri) and I completed a Mages Guild daily quest, but Mirri did not get the Companion's "Mages Guild" skill tree. Maybe there is some other requirement?

3. On the Companion Menu under Skills, Undaunted, it states "Complete one of Bolgru's Undaunted challenges to unlock this skill line." Mirri and I completed the daily Undaunted quest, but Miri did not get the Companion's "Undaunted" skill tree.

All of the above is now fixed. With one of my EU characters on PV [v7.0.4], got Mirri as companion and completed "dailies" for: (1) Fighters Guild; (2); Mages Guild; and Undaunted. Mirri got the skill trees for all 3 guilds after the 1st quest completed for that guild. Guild level after 1 "daily" was 50/100 (good, I was fearing that I needed 100 "dailies"!). Glad it's all working now.

jwellsub17_ESO2

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

All of the above is now fixed. With one of my EU characters on PV [v7.0.4], got Mirri as companion and completed "dailies" for: (1) Fighters Guild; (2); Mages Guild; and Undaunted. Mirri got the skill trees for all 3 guilds after the 1st quest completed for that guild. Guild level after 1 "daily" was 50/100 (good, I was fearing that I needed 100 "dailies"!). Glad it's all working now.

Did you, by chance complete Mirri's favor before you did the dailies? Last week, before 7.0.4, I managed to get Bastian the MG skill, but only after completing Bastian's favor.

vailjohn_ESO

jwellsub17_ESO2 wrote: »

Did you, by chance complete Mirri's favor before you did the dailies? Last week, before 7.0.4, I managed to get Bastian the MG skill, but only after completing Bastian's favor.

I just tested it and I was successfully able to unlock the Mage's Guild, Fighter's Guild, and Undaunted skill lines for Bastian without having completed the Bastian's Favor achievement.

ADarklore

ajkb78 wrote: »

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. ..snip...

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem.

If my suspicion is correct... ZOS is forcing the players to either 1) create a damage build with very little survivability, or 2) create a survivability build with very little damage output. I am betting that Companions will need to run 3 or 4 defense skills in order to be survivable in many boss encounters... even with top level gear. You could run less defense skills if you have a group heal in your own build, but you'll have to focus on both damage and healing.

I know with TRUST companions in FFXIV, when they first came out players were complaining that it took twice as long to complete dungeons with them compared to quick runs with other players. The devs said that was by design, that if you wanted a fast run, you should be running with real players, but if you wanted to solo a dungeon with Trust companions, then it would take you roughly twice as long.

I'm wondering if that is what ZOS is thinking... that to keep companion damage lower (so they aren't viable to replace players), players are forced to invest more in defense skills for survivability versus damage skills. After all, a dead companion offers NO damage... but even a low damage companion at least offers some additional help for the long slog through your solo adventures.

BlueRaven

crazepdx wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

Bastian makes a great tank. "7 BEST Companion Builds For ESO Blackwood"

Does HTM pay you to post his videos? That seems to be all you do in response to the overwhelming feedback that companions are lackluster.

Bastian does not make a "great" tank and 15 seconds of footage and a build from a content creator doesn't change that. Even on the latest PTS, although companions seem a bit smarter on the back end of things, they still seriously lack survivability. And now with roll dodges limited to 2 per FIGHT, any fight that takes over 20 seconds is basically 100% kill rate for a companion no matter their build.

Further feedback for ZOS: Ultimates are still janky and do not appear to work consistently. In addition, are companions losing their ult gain upon death? Is this intended? They really should retain it if so. They die so much you can almost never get an ult off.

@Mysticman You do realize @HackTheMinotaur showed that even he had to work to keep Bastian alive while using him as a tank. This on some of the easiest bosses to solo. However more importantly Hack and people like you actually hurt the overall community. Him by making the videos where he purposefully put them in the best possible circumstances to sell them for ZOS, you for passing that video everywhere someone brings up valid concerns regarding the Companions in an attempt to get the problems fixed prior to release.
As long as they are getting pre-sales and hype while releasing mediocre or broken material, they don't care. They make money either way. ZOS has shown this time and time again. So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

To be fair he did make a video pointing out how gearing companions is a major issue with them.

https://youtu.be/-5EDA7ZN4PQ

I like @HackTheMinotaur , he does professional looking videos and he is very knowledgeable about the game.

He does one bar builds as well that I don’t see elsewhere. He also does not sound elitist which feels rare.

I don’t like many content creators, but hack is one that I do.

crazepdx

ADarklore wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. ..snip...

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem.

If my suspicion is correct... ZOS is forcing the players to either 1) create a damage build with very little survivability, or 2) create a survivability build with very little damage output. I am betting that Companions will need to run 3 or 4 defense skills in order to be survivable in many boss encounters... even with top level gear. You could run less defense skills if you have a group heal in your own build, but you'll have to focus on both damage and healing.

I know with TRUST companions in FFXIV, when they first came out players were complaining that it took twice as long to complete dungeons with them compared to quick runs with other players. The devs said that was by design, that if you wanted a fast run, you should be running with real players, but if you wanted to solo a dungeon with Trust companions, then it would take you roughly twice as long.

I'm wondering if that is what ZOS is thinking... that to keep companion damage lower (so they aren't viable to replace players), players are forced to invest more in defense skills for survivability versus damage skills. After all, a dead companion offers NO damage... but even a low damage companion at least offers some additional help for the long slog through your solo adventures.

I can only speak for me. My rotation with Mirri is healing and utility. For traits I use staff and jewelry damage reduction and body cooldown reduction. I've ran her in med armor but was thinking of changing to heavy since it will give her more armor with little downside by my theory crafting. She makes a passable pocket healer. Typically dies more from random aoe or when I'm busy and she pulls adds. As a healer her biggest draw back is she is outside of healing range, ALOT. Between her roll dodges and not following me when I have to move around in am encounter, I have to stay aware of her placement.
It sucks cause, if it wasn't for the problem of gear drop rate and no additional inventory, her combat performance wouldn't really bug me. It wouldn't be anything I would count on but it wouldn't bother me.
If it wasn't for how lackluster her combat performance was, I could live with how frustrating and expensive it will be to gear her up. I wouldn't like it, but it at least feel worth it.

It's not one thing that makes the companions bad overall is what I'm saying.

crazepdx

BlueRaven wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

Bastian makes a great tank. "7 BEST Companion Builds For ESO Blackwood"

Does HTM pay you to post his videos? That seems to be all you do in response to the overwhelming feedback that companions are lackluster.

Bastian does not make a "great" tank and 15 seconds of footage and a build from a content creator doesn't change that. Even on the latest PTS, although companions seem a bit smarter on the back end of things, they still seriously lack survivability. And now with roll dodges limited to 2 per FIGHT, any fight that takes over 20 seconds is basically 100% kill rate for a companion no matter their build.

Further feedback for ZOS: Ultimates are still janky and do not appear to work consistently. In addition, are companions losing their ult gain upon death? Is this intended? They really should retain it if so. They die so much you can almost never get an ult off.

@Mysticman You do realize @HackTheMinotaur showed that even he had to work to keep Bastian alive while using him as a tank. This on some of the easiest bosses to solo. However more importantly Hack and people like you actually hurt the overall community. Him by making the videos where he purposefully put them in the best possible circumstances to sell them for ZOS, you for passing that video everywhere someone brings up valid concerns regarding the Companions in an attempt to get the problems fixed prior to release.
As long as they are getting pre-sales and hype while releasing mediocre or broken material, they don't care. They make money either way. ZOS has shown this time and time again. So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

To be fair he did make a video pointing out how gearing companions is a major issue with them.

https://youtu.be/-5EDA7ZN4PQ

I like @HackTheMinotaur , he does professional looking videos and he is very knowledgeable about the game.

He does one bar builds as well that I don’t see elsewhere. He also does not sound elitist which feels rare.

I don’t like many content creators, but hack is one that I do.

He did, way late in the test cycle after hyping them up ALOT. Also not really push it out like he did the others. The big problems were known since day 1 release on test. Had Hack released that video during week 1 we probably would have them fixed because more people would have talked about the issues. Instead he released videos HIDING THOSE PROBLEMS, intentionally. Then released it at week 4 when no one is paying attention anymore.

I used to like @HackTheMinotaur as a content creator. I thought he had players interests at heart. However at the end of the day he helped silence conversation regarding needed changes. There will be people who pre-ordered based on his videos, thinking they will be getting something that is drastically different then what is currently going to launch on live. Does that benefit those people?

BlueRaven

crazepdx wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

Bastian makes a great tank. "7 BEST Companion Builds For ESO Blackwood"

Does HTM pay you to post his videos? That seems to be all you do in response to the overwhelming feedback that companions are lackluster.

Bastian does not make a "great" tank and 15 seconds of footage and a build from a content creator doesn't change that. Even on the latest PTS, although companions seem a bit smarter on the back end of things, they still seriously lack survivability. And now with roll dodges limited to 2 per FIGHT, any fight that takes over 20 seconds is basically 100% kill rate for a companion no matter their build.

Further feedback for ZOS: Ultimates are still janky and do not appear to work consistently. In addition, are companions losing their ult gain upon death? Is this intended? They really should retain it if so. They die so much you can almost never get an ult off.

@Mysticman You do realize @HackTheMinotaur showed that even he had to work to keep Bastian alive while using him as a tank. This on some of the easiest bosses to solo. However more importantly Hack and people like you actually hurt the overall community. Him by making the videos where he purposefully put them in the best possible circumstances to sell them for ZOS, you for passing that video everywhere someone brings up valid concerns regarding the Companions in an attempt to get the problems fixed prior to release.
As long as they are getting pre-sales and hype while releasing mediocre or broken material, they don't care. They make money either way. ZOS has shown this time and time again. So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

To be fair he did make a video pointing out how gearing companions is a major issue with them.

https://youtu.be/-5EDA7ZN4PQ

I like @HackTheMinotaur , he does professional looking videos and he is very knowledgeable about the game.

He does one bar builds as well that I don’t see elsewhere. He also does not sound elitist which feels rare.

I don’t like many content creators, but hack is one that I do.

He did, way late in the test cycle after hyping them up ALOT. Also not really push it out like he did the others. The big problems were known since day 1 release on test. Had Hack released that video during week 1 we probably would have them fixed because more people would have talked about the issues. Instead he released videos HIDING THOSE PROBLEMS, intentionally. Then released it at week 4 when no one is paying attention anymore.

I used to like @HackTheMinotaur as a content creator. I thought he had players interests at heart. However at the end of the day he helped silence conversation regarding needed changes. There will be people who pre-ordered based on his videos, thinking they will be getting something that is drastically different then what is currently going to launch on live. Does that benefit those people?

Unlike his other videos, he also made a forum thread about the companion gearing issue:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7255249

So I am not sure what else you wanted him to do. I don’t think he has the eso developers on speed dial or something.

I think if you feel that he did not do enough, that is kind of a subjective opinion. Can you point to another content creator who did more about this issue? I am just curious, I am always open to see eso content creators I may have not heard of.

crazepdx

@BlueRaven
Timing is the issue. You can go back and verify if you like. In week 1 when myself and others pointed out the problems and there was alot of discussion regarding them he released his videos. Deliberately choosing fights and situations that hid or downplayed those flaws. He also didn't mention the drop rates or inventory issues in those videos at all, even though they were well known. In every discussion that week you can go back and look, his videos were linked to show those flaws weren't important.
By week 4 the discussions were pretty much a dead horse and most had given up. Again look at numbers of posts and interactions. Then after he had pretty much helped to kill the discussion he released the video regarding inventory and drop rate. Anyone who knows the test cycle knows that by week 4 its pretty much baked in the cake.
It doesn't matter what any other influencer did. Show me where those influences videos were used to counter the attempts to get ZOS to make changes.

NoxiousBlight

ADarklore wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. ..snip...

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem.

...

I have tested in all heavy armor, all quickened, with all healing and defensive skills slotted.

If they stand in an AoE they still die. Maybe bolstered or something might be better, but I suspect it just makes them like 8 seconds instead of 6. They also do about 2k dps in that setup so it still feels sad.

On the latest build I saw Mirri ONCE move out of the AoE from the second boss on normal Cauldron. She actually walked out of it. I was impressed. Unfortunately the next time it landed on her she didn't move and was dead in 4 seconds. So it seems they are working on something with the AI. I just hope it has SIGNIFICANT improvements by launch. The only reason she lived at all is because I had her set up as ranged.

Companions still need innate damage mitigation though. Tank and melee setups never move out of the AoEs. As it stands now, the only options for companions seem to be healing/lightning/fire staff or bow. Everything else they still just die.

jwellsub17_ESO2

crazepdx wrote: »

Between her roll dodges and not following me when I have to move around in am encounter, I have to stay aware of her placement.

IMNSHO this is the single biggest piece of the problem. Because their position is not tied to the player, but instead tied to the mob(s) they are dying to, there is no way to really coordinate their movement for things like flanking, moving out of rings of stupid, engagement range management, etc.

A couple weeks ago, I suggested that ZOS change them to use distance from character and not distance from mob. With that proposal, we could have a setting like companion remains close (3 - 5 meters), medium (5 - 10 meters), or far (10 - 20 meters) in relation to their character. Thus, if I roll-dodge right to get out of a ring of stupid, my companion will adjust their position within the "range" parameter to the right of their previous position. With that we can move them in and out of effective engagement range, rings of stupid, and flanking positions, etc.

It also lends itself to a better feeling of teamwork. Right now, you companion can be up to about 100 meters from you fighting mob(s) that you can't even see... That actually happened to me last night while testing some zone leveling, I thought he had fallen through the world or somthin.

EDIT: Using range from player lends itself better to a feeling of teamwork.

CaffeinatedMayhem

ADarklore wrote: »
» show previous quotes

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem

As stated in my posts, I had Bastian in all light with resto staff. The Mages guild Reverse Balance, Resto staff... Regeneration (companion version) and ... one other heal. Priority is given to Shield (Igneous) and Drake's Blood (never saw cast IF there is a visual that matches DK's Coagulating Blood). Bastian easily stood in 1 AoE circle from the Sul-Xan WB in Blackwood, something he couldn't do when first tested. The heals were enough with Soothing, but I found Quickened useful for assuring skills were cast often enough to be useful, including his shielding.

Mysticman

crazepdx wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

Bastian makes a great tank. "7 BEST Companion Builds For ESO Blackwood"

Does HTM pay you to post his videos? That seems to be all you do in response to the overwhelming feedback that companions are lackluster.

Bastian does not make a "great" tank and 15 seconds of footage and a build from a content creator doesn't change that. Even on the latest PTS, although companions seem a bit smarter on the back end of things, they still seriously lack survivability. And now with roll dodges limited to 2 per FIGHT, any fight that takes over 20 seconds is basically 100% kill rate for a companion no matter their build.

Further feedback for ZOS: Ultimates are still janky and do not appear to work consistently. In addition, are companions losing their ult gain upon death? Is this intended? They really should retain it if so. They die so much you can almost never get an ult off.

@Mysticman You do realize @HackTheMinotaur showed that even he had to work to keep Bastian alive while using him as a tank. This on some of the easiest bosses to solo. However more importantly Hack and people like you actually hurt the overall community. Him by making the videos where he purposefully put them in the best possible circumstances to sell them for ZOS, you for passing that video everywhere someone brings up valid concerns regarding the Companions in an attempt to get the problems fixed prior to release.
As long as they are getting pre-sales and hype while releasing mediocre or broken material, they don't care. They make money either way. ZOS has shown this time and time again. So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

So because HackTheMinotaur is not complaining and whining about the companions but is instead working on discovering methods and setups to enable him employ them in the most effective ways, he's somehow miss leading players is laughable.

And where did you get this weird idea that if a few players complain incessantly the Devs will do whatever the players want? Over the pass seven years, the Devs have heard it all and will always do what "they" think is best for the overall health of the game whether the some players like it or not, that's the way it should be. The Devs have always said they welcome "constructive" criticism. But the endless complaining I see as in (I hate this or this sucks.) is unconstructive criticism and will be and should be ignored.

Mysticman

ADarklore wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. ..snip...

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem.

If my suspicion is correct... ZOS is forcing the players to either 1) create a damage build with very little survivability, or 2) create a survivability build with very little damage output. I am betting that Companions will need to run 3 or 4 defense skills in order to be survivable in many boss encounters... even with top level gear. You could run less defense skills if you have a group heal in your own build, but you'll have to focus on both damage and healing.

I know with TRUST companions in FFXIV, when they first came out players were complaining that it took twice as long to complete dungeons with them compared to quick runs with other players. The devs said that was by design, that if you wanted a fast run, you should be running with real players, but if you wanted to solo a dungeon with Trust companions, then it would take you roughly twice as long.

I'm wondering if that is what ZOS is thinking... that to keep companion damage lower (so they aren't viable to replace players), players are forced to invest more in defense skills for survivability versus damage skills. After all, a dead companion offers NO damage... but even a low damage companion at least offers some additional help for the long slog through your solo adventures.

Look at post #297.

Mysticman

Double post

Kesstryl

Mysticman wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. ..snip...

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem.

If my suspicion is correct... ZOS is forcing the players to either 1) create a damage build with very little survivability, or 2) create a survivability build with very little damage output. I am betting that Companions will need to run 3 or 4 defense skills in order to be survivable in many boss encounters... even with top level gear. You could run less defense skills if you have a group heal in your own build, but you'll have to focus on both damage and healing.

I know with TRUST companions in FFXIV, when they first came out players were complaining that it took twice as long to complete dungeons with them compared to quick runs with other players. The devs said that was by design, that if you wanted a fast run, you should be running with real players, but if you wanted to solo a dungeon with Trust companions, then it would take you roughly twice as long.

I'm wondering if that is what ZOS is thinking... that to keep #297 damage lower (so they aren't viable to replace players), players are forced to invest more in defense skills for survivability versus damage skills. After all, a dead companion offers NO damage... but even a low damage companion at least offers some additional help for the long slog through your solo adventures.

ADarklore wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

I've done a bit more testing last night and today. ..snip...

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of people are utilizing mostly damage skills, or perhaps one or two defense skills, and I think that could be the big problem.

If my suspicion is correct... ZOS is forcing the players to either 1) create a damage build with very little survivability, or 2) create a survivability build with very little damage output. I am betting that Companions will need to run 3 or 4 defense skills in order to be survivable in many boss encounters... even with top level gear. You could run less defense skills if you have a group heal in your own build, but you'll have to focus on both damage and healing.

I know with TRUST companions in FFXIV, when they first came out players were complaining that it took twice as long to complete dungeons with them compared to quick runs with other players. The devs said that was by design, that if you wanted a fast run, you should be running with real players, but if you wanted to solo a dungeon with Trust companions, then it would take you roughly twice as long.

I'm wondering if that is what ZOS is thinking... that to keep companion damage lower (so they aren't viable to replace players), players are forced to invest more in defense skills for survivability versus damage skills. After all, a dead companion offers NO damage... but even a low damage companion at least offers some additional help for the long slog through your solo adventures.

Look at post #297. Alcast also has some cool companion builds on his web site. https://alcasthq.com/category/eso-companions/

Again, another elite content creator with the APM of a nuclear bomb who does not represent the majority of us plebs. Yay, because two content creators can find companions useful in situational content with specific gear with specific traits that will take the average player well over a year to grind for suddenly makes the best thing ever. I will wait to buy this chapter when companions are actually useful after they are tweaked three months from now when ZOS finally realizes how useless they are to most of us.

Ilsabet

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

I did my testing without using boosters to level my companions. Out of the box, companions have 4 skills unlocked (3 from class lines and 1 from their default weapon line) and can slot 3 of them. Odds are pretty good that you're going to slot a defensive/healing skill as one of your 3 initial choices, but at the same time you don't get a lot of options when you're just starting out. And unfortunately, that out-of-the-box experience is what will form players' first impressions and serve as the reality they're dealing with as they level their companions to open up more options.

So in my testing experience, even with purple gear that I'm not actually going to be able to use on live (because the drop rate is abysmal), having the available defensive and healing skills slotted did not help keep my fledgling companions alive, and I'm not going to be putting a whole lot of stock in optimized builds that won't reflect the reality of playing with them.

I will acknowledge that I haven't been on PTS since week 1 to see for myself how things have changed, but I can absolutely believe the people saying that there are still massive problems with survivability (especially with no real fixes in patch notes aside from goofing with roll dodge).

ADarklore

Ilsabet wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

I did my testing without using boosters to level my companions. Out of the box, companions have 4 skills unlocked (3 from class lines and 1 from their default weapon line) and can slot 3 of them. Odds are pretty good that you're going to slot a defensive/healing skill as one of your 3 initial choices, but at the same time you don't get a lot of options when you're just starting out. And unfortunately, that out-of-the-box experience is what will form players' first impressions and serve as the reality they're dealing with as they level their companions to open up more options.

So in my testing experience, even with purple gear that I'm not actually going to be able to use on live (because the drop rate is abysmal), having the available defensive and healing skills slotted did not help keep my fledgling companions alive, and I'm not going to be putting a whole lot of stock in optimized builds that won't reflect the reality of playing with them.

I will acknowledge that I haven't been on PTS since week 1 to see for myself how things have changed, but I can absolutely believe the people saying that there are still massive problems with survivability (especially with no real fixes in patch notes aside from goofing with roll dodge).

The devs can see how many Companion deaths occurred on PTS, so one would hope they would be taking this information into account when finalizing Blackwood. If things go LIVE, as is, there will be tons of complaints on the forums and beyond that, they will also have the data to see how many companions have been acquired but only leveled to xyz before being abandoned. This should also give them more data into how poorly, or well, their decisions have been received.

I think it's pretty clear, from the fact that both companions come with ranged weapons, that they are basically telling players "play range until you get better gear and higher leveled"... and even then, with their sheer number of self-heals, damage mitigation, and evasion abilities... they are also telling players, "expect to only use a couple of damage abilities as you'll need most slots for defensive skills". Well, unless you're a player running a class that has good damage and healing capabilities.

So you saying you won't be putting stock in optimized builds that won't reflect reality... is like saying, I won't seek out BIS gear because I won't be able to use them right away. No, you won't, but that's what ZOS wants with companions... they want players to think long-term with them, not expecting to put no effort but gain full rewards. Being a solo quester myself, and seeing as how they say any enemy can drop companion gear, but more so with bosses, it would seem that questing would be the best way to acquire companion gear over time. From what I've heard, they don't die in open world and normal delves, which seems to be what ZOS has planned them to be most utilized in.

crazepdx

Mysticman wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Mysticman wrote: »

Bastian makes a great tank. "7 BEST Companion Builds For ESO Blackwood"

Does HTM pay you to post his videos? That seems to be all you do in response to the overwhelming feedback that companions are lackluster.

Bastian does not make a "great" tank and 15 seconds of footage and a build from a content creator doesn't change that. Even on the latest PTS, although companions seem a bit smarter on the back end of things, they still seriously lack survivability. And now with roll dodges limited to 2 per FIGHT, any fight that takes over 20 seconds is basically 100% kill rate for a companion no matter their build.

Further feedback for ZOS: Ultimates are still janky and do not appear to work consistently. In addition, are companions losing their ult gain upon death? Is this intended? They really should retain it if so. They die so much you can almost never get an ult off.

@Mysticman You do realize @HackTheMinotaur showed that even he had to work to keep Bastian alive while using him as a tank. This on some of the easiest bosses to solo. However more importantly Hack and people like you actually hurt the overall community. Him by making the videos where he purposefully put them in the best possible circumstances to sell them for ZOS, you for passing that video everywhere someone brings up valid concerns regarding the Companions in an attempt to get the problems fixed prior to release.
As long as they are getting pre-sales and hype while releasing mediocre or broken material, they don't care. They make money either way. ZOS has shown this time and time again. So by helping them hype this and helping them get pre-sales they have NO REASON to fix the problems.

So because HackTheMinotaur is not complaining and whining about the companions but is instead working on discovering methods and setups to enable him employ them in the most effective ways, he's somehow miss leading players is laughable.

And where did you get this weird idea that if a few players complain incessantly the Devs will do whatever the players want? Over the pass seven years, the Devs have heard it all and will always do what "they" think is best for the overall health of the game whether the some players like it or not, that's the way it should be. The Devs have always said they welcome "constructive" criticism. But the endless complaining I see as in (I hate this or this sucks.) is unconstructive criticism and will be and should be ignored.

You are absolutely right someone like me, or even a group of someones like me aren't going to get dev attention. If we were able to, thrassian strangles would never have gone live as it did. Neither would crimson and definitely not the way they had crimson tuned in week 1.
What it took was a content creator to release a video of his guild melting the bosses in vSS with the stupid dps thrassians gave their dps.

Thankfully the crimson changes were nixed week 2 patch. Mainly because another content creator showed himself soloing an area boss in IC while he was AFK.

You are probably right. If Hack released a video highlighting the problems with the companions during a heavy promotional time for ZOS specifically around companions. They wouldn't have cared. It's not like anyone takes what Hack says seriously or paid attention to his videos. I mean if they did you wouldn't feel the need to link them every other post almost.

I probably shouldn't be so hard on him. It's not like he could have known the problems were there before he made his other videos and only realized 4 weeks later that not having their own inventory space or a better drop rate would cause people following his builds to not be as successful and the people who struggled with them in combat should just watch more videos and learn 2 get gud.

Its not like he could do anything to help fix things. It's not like he has as much ability to highlight problems and get them changed as a couple channels that are a tenth of the size of his. So you're right, thank you.

Ilsabet

ADarklore wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm curious, not only for you but others who have been testing as well, how many defense skills are you utilizing? People post their results, problems, etc... but they never post what skills they have been using. Each companion has a lot of self-heal, damage mitigation and evasion skills... so I'm curious how many people complaining about deaths, are actually using them and if they are, which ones.

I did my testing without using boosters to level my companions. Out of the box, companions have 4 skills unlocked (3 from class lines and 1 from their default weapon line) and can slot 3 of them. Odds are pretty good that you're going to slot a defensive/healing skill as one of your 3 initial choices, but at the same time you don't get a lot of options when you're just starting out. And unfortunately, that out-of-the-box experience is what will form players' first impressions and serve as the reality they're dealing with as they level their companions to open up more options.

So in my testing experience, even with purple gear that I'm not actually going to be able to use on live (because the drop rate is abysmal), having the available defensive and healing skills slotted did not help keep my fledgling companions alive, and I'm not going to be putting a whole lot of stock in optimized builds that won't reflect the reality of playing with them.

I will acknowledge that I haven't been on PTS since week 1 to see for myself how things have changed, but I can absolutely believe the people saying that there are still massive problems with survivability (especially with no real fixes in patch notes aside from goofing with roll dodge).

So you saying you won't be putting stock in optimized builds that won't reflect reality... is like saying, I won't seek out BIS gear because I won't be able to use them right away. No, you won't, but that's what ZOS wants with companions... they want players to think long-term with them, not expecting to put no effort but gain full rewards. Being a solo quester myself, and seeing as how they say any enemy can drop companion gear, but more so with bosses, it would seem that questing would be the best way to acquire companion gear over time.

The main difference there is that BiS gear for players is akin to a luxury, something that's cool to have but not really necessary if you're not doing the hardest content in the game. What we're seeing with companions is that they're much more reliant on gear and skill builds for success (which I would generously define as "staying alive long enough to be useful" ). ZOS may want it to be a grind to actualize those builds, but that just reinforces my point that we're going to be working with what we're given for a good long while, and that's why I'm focusing more on the immediate-term situation rather than the idealized situation that I might eventually be working with months? years? who knows? down the line.

ADarklore wrote: »

From what I've heard, they don't die in open world and normal delves, which seems to be what ZOS has planned them to be most utilized in.

I'm probably not going to put in any more time on PTS so close to launch, but I'll be very interested to see how true this is when they go live. In my early experience things like dolmen trash and world bosses killed my companions easily, and regular overworld mobs didn't really have the chance to try because I killed them so quickly. I hope your optimism is warranted, but I'll have to wait to see for myself how things go.

BalticBlues

The REAL PROBLEM with companions:
Instead of HELPING players, players need to HELP COMPANIONS.

So instead that people can bring companions to help them in difficult content
WHICH IS WHAT ZOS PROMISED IN PREVIEWS
players have to BABYSIT companions and can use them only in stuff they can SOLO anyway.

So what is the selling point with companions?
Is it fun that players have to carry their gear?
Is it fun that players have to grind their gear?
Is it fun that players have to grind guild quests to make them happy?
Is it fun to have a Tamagotchi companion in ESO?

What would I give to get my SKYRIM companion in ESO.
She could carry her own gear.
She could stand her ground and helped me in fights.
I did not have to do stupid quests just to make her happy.
She was the kind of tough girl I really liked. Not a stupid Tamagotchi.

Ryuvain

BalticBlues wrote: »

The REAL PROBLEM with companions:
Instead of HELPING players, players need to HELP COMPANIONS.

So instead that people can bring companions to help them in difficult content
WHICH IS WHAT ZOS PROMISED IN PREVIEWS
players have to BABYSIT companions and can use them only in stuff they can SOLO anyway.

So what is the selling point with companions?
Is it fun that players have to carry their gear?
Is it fun that players have to grind their gear?
Is it fun that players have to grind guild quests to make them happy?
Is it fun to have a Tamagotchi companion in ESO?

What would I give to get my SKYRIM companion in ESO.
She could carry her own gear.
She could stand her ground and helped me in fights.
I did not have to do stupid quests just to make her happy.
She was the kind of tough girl I really liked. Not a stupid Tamagotchi.

Don't forget that companions will even leave you for doing any gameplay that they don't like.

THAT is the worst 'feature' I've ever seen.

Serana, Lydia, please come back.