Should the Craft(green) tree skills be made passive?

remosito · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

Abelon · April 2021

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

remosito · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

I can compare it if I want to. no laws against it. And I can judge for myself if changes introduced by any game dev make sense to me. And whether they are fun, meaningful and engaging or not. And depending on the results of such thought processes decide if I want to keep on contributing to the salaries of whoever is in charge.

And I sure aint willing to do that. no cp scaling kick in the teeth was death of me buying pre-order full price and keeping eso+.
This green tree mess won't even make me buy chapter at 50% off.... gives them some time to fix it before those sales happen...

Oh, and please dont give me the server load excuse. Compared to the millions of calculations that have to be made for combat. green tree stuff isn't even a drop on a hot stone. any of that just happens way to unfrequently to matter.

ThorianB · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

You know what they call it when you use to have something in a game but it gets taken away from you in an update? A nerf. Our free passives for reaching CP XXX were taken away and now:
* They are gated behind other stars that we are forced to put CP into.
* Require a lot of CP
* Required to be slotted.

That is a major nerf but you are trying to convince us it doesn't matter because we didn't lose anything. We lost a lot, actually.

Abelon · April 2021

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

I can compare it if I want to. no laws against it. And I can judge for myself if changes introduced by any game dev make sense to me. And whether they are fun, meaningful and engaging or not. And depending on the results of such thought processes decide if I want to keep on contributing to the salaries of whoever is in charge.

And I sure aint willing to do that. no cp scaling kick in the teeth was death of me buying pre-order full price and keeping eso+.
This green tree mess won't even make me buy chapter at 50% off.... gives them some time to fix it before those sales happen...

Oh, and please dont give me the server load excuse. Compared to the millions of calculations that have to be made for combat. green tree stuff isn't even a drop on a hot stone. any of that just happens way to unfrequently to matter.

Sorry, I reread my comment and realised that it does kind of come across like I'm saying that people are not allowed to complain about the changes. That's not what I wanted to say. My thoughts are rather that, well we've seen in other cases (like changes to light attacks that happened on pts some time back) that ZOS definitely checks the reactions and feedback of the playerbase, and that they do not make big decisions lightly. We also know that they in many cases don't just take those changes back, because parts of the community are not happy about them. So I was trying to say - you are completely free to share your opinions and suggestions, and it's understandable that some people are not happy with those CP changes. But I also don't think it's realistic that this system will be changed back (to the non slot version). Because I'm sure that these changes were not made lightly, and they were tested on PTS, and so on.

I don't think that they were lying about the calculations, I don't think they had a reason to. That's why I believe that the slots do make a difference.

Voting with your wallet is the right way. Especially because one should not pay for a game one does not enjoy. But this forum is a small part of the playerbase and people here often forget that.

Shantu · April 2021

Other...

I don't know if they should...but I wish they would. As it is it's an annoying disruption of gameplay. Now nobody HAS to switch their slotables based on content they encounter, but choosing to take advantage of what ZOS has offered with the green tree, is turning out to be, and predictably so, a frustrating experience. All my characters run dungeons/trials, craft, and farm nodes. Constantly having to remind myself to switch, and then feeling frustrated when I forget to do so, is bothersome, to say the least.

Abelon · April 2021

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

ThorianB wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

You know what they call it when you use to have something in a game but it gets taken away from you in an update? A nerf. Our free passives for reaching CP XXX were taken away and now:
* They are gated behind other stars that we are forced to put CP into.
* Require a lot of CP
* Required to be slotted.

That is a major nerf but you are trying to convince us it doesn't matter because we didn't lose anything. We lost a lot, actually.

"This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things." No, I literally acknowledged that we lost some things. Aka some things got nerfed. Now we have "progression" in the CP trees. That's what you are describing. Certain passives being gated behind other passives/slotables. And yes, we also need more CP now, because progression.

Some people like progression believe it or not. Some people want to see something change when they gain more CPs. I feel that this is an entirely different discussion though, because this thread is about the green tree specifically, not about the rework in general.

whitecrow · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

All the perks should be passive and available without having to "slot" them. It makes no sense that I forget how to fish, harvest or craft efficiently from time to time.

Merforum · April 2021

Other...

Merforum wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

I think you are correct about most of these numbers but there is a difference in speed for sure. At a minimum, I do writs and/or daily dungeons on 5-13 toons a day and notice a distinct noticeable difference in mount speed, sprint speed, normal speed often. I think they are tweaking the base speed value in every maintenance at least. it goes from super fast to super slow to a little faster to slow again, they can't seem to decide. It seems like they should reduce the number of buffs to speed because can't make up their mind where the speed is correct, someone with all buffs is too fast and with no buffs too slow.

It's easy to measure speed on PC/Mac with Fyrakin's minimap. (Other add-ons may do this as well.) While add-ons are of course not available on console, I sincerely doubt they're tweaking console speeds every patch when they're not tweaking PC/Mac speeds. There just wouldn't seem to be a point.

That said, there is some natural variation in movement and mounted speed and in our perception of it.

Smaller toons seem like they move faster because they are smaller. In reality toons of all sizes move at the same actual speed as long as they have the same buffs. This is measurable.

Another issue is that toons and mounts easily get hung up on terrain irregularities, so speeds are constantly vascillating around the calculated speed. Hitting an invisible terrain bump can make your mount slow down by a very noticeable amount until it recovers. Likewise, with this Steed's Blessing passive, all my toons get bumped up in the air as they run along the platform outside the Mages Guild in Rawl'kha. They aren't jumping -- they're just running and get thrown up in the air a bit for funsies due to something in the terrain and the game engine's physics.

It's also possible to go faster than the nominal speeds by jumping or (on a mount in keyboard mode) reapplying sprint every few seconds.

A speed monitor like the one with the minimap add-on will show you that the movement/mounted speed is never perfectly stable, so it could be a combination of these natural variations that you're noticing.

I actually do have an addon that shows the speed on the screen but haven't written down the numbers. I'll have to do that to see if it is just perception. I agree there is an insane number of place that knock horse and toon out of sprint. Can't believe you can literally run through other players even in PVP but a tiny pebble on the ground will knock your horse off balance. Oh and what I hate even more is some archways literally knock you off your horse for no reason.

OK I have all the CP maxxed out 20% bonus, 8% sprint bonus, stable bonus and normal walk speed is ~800, sprint ~1100, horse ~1400, gallop ~1800 and my pereception of this on scale of 1-10 (10 being faster ever, like with wild hunt ring), I would say it is about 7-8 now.

BTW in advanced stats it says sprint is 150% so numbers i see on foot and horse for sprint seem low. And yes, every peeble, blade of grass, etc will knock you out of sprint and reduce the speed. Right now it feels OK.

virtus753 · April 2021

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

I think you are correct about most of these numbers but there is a difference in speed for sure. At a minimum, I do writs and/or daily dungeons on 5-13 toons a day and notice a distinct noticeable difference in mount speed, sprint speed, normal speed often. I think they are tweaking the base speed value in every maintenance at least. it goes from super fast to super slow to a little faster to slow again, they can't seem to decide. It seems like they should reduce the number of buffs to speed because can't make up their mind where the speed is correct, someone with all buffs is too fast and with no buffs too slow.

It's easy to measure speed on PC/Mac with Fyrakin's minimap. (Other add-ons may do this as well.) While add-ons are of course not available on console, I sincerely doubt they're tweaking console speeds every patch when they're not tweaking PC/Mac speeds. There just wouldn't seem to be a point.

That said, there is some natural variation in movement and mounted speed and in our perception of it.

Smaller toons seem like they move faster because they are smaller. In reality toons of all sizes move at the same actual speed as long as they have the same buffs. This is measurable.

Another issue is that toons and mounts easily get hung up on terrain irregularities, so speeds are constantly vascillating around the calculated speed. Hitting an invisible terrain bump can make your mount slow down by a very noticeable amount until it recovers. Likewise, with this Steed's Blessing passive, all my toons get bumped up in the air as they run along the platform outside the Mages Guild in Rawl'kha. They aren't jumping -- they're just running and get thrown up in the air a bit for funsies due to something in the terrain and the game engine's physics.

It's also possible to go faster than the nominal speeds by jumping or (on a mount in keyboard mode) reapplying sprint every few seconds.

A speed monitor like the one with the minimap add-on will show you that the movement/mounted speed is never perfectly stable, so it could be a combination of these natural variations that you're noticing.

I actually do have an addon that shows the speed on the screen but haven't written down the numbers. I'll have to do that to see if it is just perception. I agree there is an insane number of place that knock horse and toon out of sprint. Can't believe you can literally run through other players even in PVP but a tiny pebble on the ground will knock your horse off balance. Oh and what I hate even more is some archways literally knock you off your horse for no reason.

OK I have all the CP maxxed out 20% bonus, 8% sprint bonus, stable bonus and normal walk speed is ~800, sprint ~1100, horse ~1400, gallop ~1800 and my pereception of this on scale of 1-10 (10 being faster ever, like with wild hunt ring), I would say it is about 7-8 now.

BTW in advanced stats it says sprint is 150% so numbers i see on foot and horse for sprint seem low. And yes, every peeble, blade of grass, etc will knock you out of sprint and reduce the speed. Right now it feels OK.

Advanced Stats is incredibly buggy. It never reflects any bonuses to sprint or sneak speed from Steed's Blessing or Ring of the Wild Hunt, for example. There may be other bugs with speed in that window too.

Keep in mind that for the purposes of the Advanced Stats sprint speed stat, 100% speed on foot is the fastest you can go without any buffs and without expending stamina, and you get a 40% additive bonus for sprinting (consuming stamina). When your sprint speed is said to be 150% under Advanced Stats, that's only 10% above normal. Hasty will account for 8% of that, as I know Hasty registers fine on the Advanced Stats UI. If you have Steed's Blessing (I assume that's your 20% you mentioned from CP), that won't register at all on the Advanced Stats list.

spartaxoxo · April 2021

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

The green tree is absolutely garbage because it interferes with how people actually play the game instead of enhancing it. It destorys exploration. It destorys immersion. And it destroys satisfaction.

The only people happy with it are people who get immense satisfaction out of beating someone else to a node. They'd sacrifice every player's experience in the game for that few times a week where they get a node before someone else. That's it.

How most actual human beings play is they only do intensive farming in areas with low competition. Either by driving them out or just going to a spot not a lot of people are to begin with. For this type of content, there is no meaningful choices. You're not going mat farming on a character that doesn't have the related passives. Every other time, you'll just grab what you see. And you'll either fuss about the menus or you'll just grab it without while being annoyed. Either way, your immersion is now instantly broken.

That's the actual reality. There's no meaningful choices, only annoyance. Choice existing by itself is not meaningful.

Merforum · April 2021

Other...

ThorianB wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

You know what they call it when you use to have something in a game but it gets taken away from you in an update? A nerf. Our free passives for reaching CP XXX were taken away and now:
* They are gated behind other stars that we are forced to put CP into.
* Require a lot of CP
* Required to be slotted.

That is a major nerf but you are trying to convince us it doesn't matter because we didn't lose anything. We lost a lot, actually.

Yes you are right 'master gathering' i think used to cost 30cp in a tree that everyone used, so essentially free for all toons early on. Now it is exactly like you say, 100s of CP just to get to it then 75 to give 50% speed AND SLOTTABLE. I think ZOS will fix this when they realize how dumb it is like they fixed 'rapids' by making if even better being a passive. Ideally they should just delete that CP node and make the 'gathering' animations the fastest one, since it is 100% QOL (It is kind of freaky that they won't do anything to fix LA anim cancelling exploit but make it take 2 full seconds to pick up some ore).

Saccopharynx · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots divided between red and blue tree.

I think the Green Tree is good quality of life stuff that should all be passives. I would rather worry about my slottables on Red and Blue (maybe make them have 5 slottables over 4 and get rid of green slottables entirely) than mess with the stuff on the green tree. Since some of my characters are specialized, I don't have to swap anything out whatsoever anyway so that's not an issue, but it is a little weird needing to slot a faster movement speed when something like that just feels like a passive.

I would've liked to see some other QoL passives on the green tree (still waiting on stack-processing fish in 2021), but overall I think some of the Green slottables don't make sense and should stay as unlocked passives (so I can unlock a passive to never charge a weapon ever again, but I have to slot a passive that reduces my repair cost??? What????)

PrayingSeraph · April 2021

virtus753 wrote: »

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

Even with those, I swear I feel noticeably slower now on mounts.

Sarannah · April 2021

Other...

The incidental nodes in the green tree should all be made into passives. Everything else staying a choice is alright.

ThorianB · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.

plentyful harvest used to exist before and wasnt slottable but always active. so you are just plain old wrong

There is the problem you people are having, imo. You keep on comparing the old CP system to the new one and counting all the percentages you are now missing and what not. Why would you do that though? This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things. You should accept that the system has changed. ZOS wanted to change it, they wanted slots, needed slots really. So now we have slots. And it is okay to suggest ways to change the current system to make people happier, of course. But I don't think it makes sense to request to essentially just go to back to the old system. It won't happen anyways.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the decisions were made on which passives became slotables. But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

You know what they call it when you use to have something in a game but it gets taken away from you in an update? A nerf. Our free passives for reaching CP XXX were taken away and now:
* They are gated behind other stars that we are forced to put CP into.
* Require a lot of CP
* Required to be slotted.

That is a major nerf but you are trying to convince us it doesn't matter because we didn't lose anything. We lost a lot, actually.

"This is a big rework, it was obvious from the start that we would lose some things and gain some other things." No, I literally acknowledged that we lost some things. Aka some things got nerfed. Now we have "progression" in the CP trees. That's what you are describing. Certain passives being gated behind other passives/slotables. And yes, we also need more CP now, because progression.

Some people like progression believe it or not. Some people want to see something change when they gain more CPs. I feel that this is an entirely different discussion though, because this thread is about the green tree specifically, not about the rework in general.

Gating stars behind other stars just for the hell of it is not progression. Progression trees in games make sense. As many have pointed out, skills that should be locked behind slots because they affect combat, are not. While skills that have zero affect on combat are locked behind slots.

There are many stars in this tree i won't ever use because their are stars that i will require on every single character that take up all the slots because of how i play. So because of how the tree is set up, i won't use more than 50% of the green tree on any character i ever play because to do so would require me to spend time swapping slots, which i have to do manually because of a lack of QoL functions in this game such as quick profile swaps. So does that give me more choices? No, it doesn't. Skills i consider necessary on all my characters are slottables. ZOS knows these are really popular skills for a lot of players, They know most players would want them active all the time. But instead of making them passive so that we could actually choose other things, they made them active. So i actually have less choices now than i did in CP 1.0 because now i have to slot stars that are requirements. #EPICFAIL ZOS.

ThorianB · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Can we get the devs to reconsider making at least the crafting and gather stars passive in this tree @ZOS_GinaBruno
A large majority of forum respondents think this should be revisited and changed. Many were skills that we had before for free just for reaching a certain CP level. Now they are gated behind other stars, require us to put points into them, AND require slotting. That is a major nerf to passive skills that do not affect combat. It also does not leave many of us with choices in this tree since we consider these must haves when we are playing. CP 2.0 was suppose to give us more meaningful choices and this actually just takes away choices from most of us. You can't have a meaningful choice if you don't feel like you have any choice.

Please ask the devs to reconsider making the crafting and gathering stars passive.

remosito · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

killed a chicken ingame today and did a voodoo dance for zos having fixed green tree mess in pts that will drop in a week..

Sevalaricgirl · April 2021

Other...

Abelon wrote: »

But I do believe that ZOS knows better which things affect performance more. So I kind of trust them on this one.

This was really funny. If ZOS knew what was best for performance then the game would be balanced. It certainly isn't. It isn't in PvP and every change they make for PvP that effects PvE players is painful. So...no...ZOS doesn't know.

LiesySchwarz · April 2021

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

The Master Gatherer for me, is the greatest loss. My main character is a Grand Master Crafter, Master Angler and she can’t pick a flower quick enough. That actually makes me sad. It’s sad to say this, I know, but the pleasure of walking around, appreciating the world of Tamriel, not having Master Gatherer, instead having this horrible hinder... It does feel like punishment. 😣 In my opinion, Master Gatherer should be a skill point passive, unlockable as your character reached lvl 50 on all professions.

peacenote · April 2021

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

This poll had more choices than I expected.

I think the answer I picked best represents my preference. Giving the green tree more slottables, which might be less work for ZOS, would also be fine in my book.

As for the red/blue tree ideas, I can honestly say that for me it has NOT been long enough to gauge whether the balance is off there. And I'm on PC. I'm still not even done filling in all my characters. I am not seeing a lot of content being released for healers. Don't have time to guess and test myself extensively and now it isn't free anymore... this patch was just so disruptive I can't recommend anything except this green tree change which seems glaringly obvious. Just another example of ZOS blindly adhering to a strategy decision which doesn't make sense in the green tree context. Should be revisited ASAP.

Sylvermynx · April 2021

Other...

I wouldn't mind a few options changed to passives (notably Master Gatherer and Plentiful Harvest), but by this point I've got things sorted pretty well (except on my second PC EU account which is still under 160 CP). See for me, I don't care about "faster and faster" mounts, so I won't put points in any of that. I'm also not interested in putting many points into things like faster sprinting etc (though of course I have to put 10 into Sprinter and 8 into Hasty in the red tree *sigh*). I don't need to run or ride real fast - in fact, I almost never ride, because I'm always farming on everyone....

What I would like is that you don't have to take things like Inspiration Boost on characters who have no reason to need it because they're done with research. Yes, you can "end around" but that's a waste of CP. I would be okay with slottables if they'd just make the prereq stars something more valuable, and not completely useless for characters done with research.

In any case, the only time I can feature having to move the green tree slots around is when I start fishing again.

As it happens, I'm flexible enough that I don't really care which way it goes. If those of you who want the green tree all passives get that on, works for me. Leaving it the way it is works for me as well, or only changing a few of the green tree options to passives works too.

snoozy · April 2021

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

pretty much the entire player base hates the current system.... soooo, zos, when are you gonna change something??

ThorianB · April 2021

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

snoozy wrote: »

pretty much the entire player base hates the current system.... soooo, zos, when are you gonna change something??

unfortunately, because its new, we might have to hate for a long time before they decide to change it. Sort of " you will learn to love it...probably"

Mik195 · April 2021

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

/quote]
If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

[/quote]

nothing meaningful about it whatsoever in my book ... just tediousness [/quote]

Ok, if we're going for "pay the price" than all addons related to swapping must be banned. Its unfair to require console and non- sophisticated PC players to "pay a price" and have others get it free.