Should the Craft(green) tree skills be made passive?

ThorianB

It has been 4 weeks for PC and 3 weeks for Consoles since U29. Everyone has had a chance to use the new system now and get a feel for it. With this in mind, what is your opinion on the green tree having many of its useful abilities as slotables?

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

There are about 6 slotables i use frequently on my jack of all trades character. I have, since U29, forgot to swap these out many times when changing activities as i do multiple activities at once. So i either have to go without a bonus i earned and bought( with CP) or i have to swap slotables every time i change activities which is a lot.

I have gave the system a fair shot but this is not an improvement, it is a PITA and actually makes activities i use to enjoy a lot less enjoyable. There is no reason for these to be skills you need to activate and they just need to be made passive.

remosito

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

green tree makes me rather nervous tbh..

is this really what the dev team. or the ones which make the final decisions. consider meaningful, engaging and fun gameplay?

will they keep insisting on it mid/long term. or see reason?

because if not this different mindset of what is fun, engaging and meaningful will probably creep into all aspects of eso. naking it more and more incompatible with mine..

PizzaCat82

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

Its fine to me, for the most part.

Harvesting, Thievery, and Fishing are all things best done in their own time, although I respect that some people do them all at once when they are out.

The food/Drink buffs might need to be passive, and maybe the speed buffs, but I've not really needed them at all.

VDoom1

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird." Taking a look at the new CP tree, "mount speed?" That is one thing I do not understand why it's up there. I think it was totally fine with the stablemaster and a cap at 60 and you're done.

There are some things I like about the green tree and some things which I just don't understand why they are there. The breakfall is handy, but it could possibly be reworked to a passive.

In my opinion the CP tree should be about making your characters stronger in one way or another. Having something like mount speed up there, it just doesn't fit in my mind.

Also the fact that if you want something at the end of a chain you're kinda "forced" to select everything before that. Which can be difficult if you don't have that much CP yet.

remosito

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Its fine to me, for the most part.

Harvesting, Thievery, and Fishing are all things best done in their own time, although I respect that some people do them all at once when they are out.

The food/Drink buffs might need to be passive, and maybe the speed buffs, but I've not really needed them at all.

@PizzaCat82

this is such a strange attitude to me.

I mean I fully understand that people play games differently. And that maybe how green tree is works for some of those different ways.

but to go from works for me to insisting they leave it as it is. even though it really doesnt for others. and that factum seemingly having registered. and they changing it does look like it would still work for those other playstyles..

I look at this and my mind just draws a blank.. like how does that work? I seriously cant connect these dots..

btw.. really just trying to understand.. not trying to attack you or anything...

jaws343

I don't care either way.

I could see the entire tree being fine as passive and not slottable. Doesn't seem like something that would really have any server issues since each thing is relegated specifically to non combat related activities.

However, at least at my CP level, I find I am only swapping 1 slot right now, and that is between Rationer, Homemaker, and Meticulous Disassembly. No reason to have all 3 active all at once, and MD and Rationer only need to be slotted briefly for a temporary gain during certain actions. I tend to do all my deconstructing and refining at the end of a play period, so it's usually a 1 time slottable for a few minutes.

As far as the others, like fishing and thieving, at almost 1600 CP, I can't even afford to unlock those alongside the others yet. So they are pretty much only going to be used when I decided to do those specific tasks, and at that point I would have to spend gold to reallocate CP entirely to accommodate. Something the passive or slottable decision wouldn't have an impact on. At least not at the CP I am right now.

itscompton

Other...

The crafting and gathering should be made passives while things that affect combat such as fall damage reduction and stealth sneak/detection radius are made actives that need to be slotted.

virtus753

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

colossalvoids

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Disassembly and harvest should be made passive for sure.

DreadDaedroth

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots divided between red and blue tree.

It's a shame there are so many slottable skills only because they want to protect the feeble servers.

redspecter23

Other...

Anything in there that has no effect in combat should be made passive. I could see an argument either way on the stealth/justice related skills.

They can then add skills that make sense to be slotted, like the speed increase to fill out the tree.

The micromanagement minigame is a horrendous design decision. I'm surprised the team behind it actually thinks it's a good idea at all.

PizzaCat82

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

remosito wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Its fine to me, for the most part.

Harvesting, Thievery, and Fishing are all things best done in their own time, although I respect that some people do them all at once when they are out.

The food/Drink buffs might need to be passive, and maybe the speed buffs, but I've not really needed them at all.

@PizzaCat82

this is such a strange attitude to me.

I mean I fully understand that people play games differently. And that maybe how green tree is works for some of those different ways.

but to go from works for me to insisting they leave it as it is. even though it really doesnt for others. and that factum seemingly having registered. and they changing it does look like it would still work for those other playstyles..

I look at this and my mind just draws a blank.. like how does that work? I seriously cant connect these dots..

btw.. really just trying to understand.. not trying to attack you or anything...

Because the whole point of CP is you had to make choices on what you wanted. You couldn't have everything

They pretty much got rid of most of that and now say "Ok you can have everything just not at the same time.

A small price to pay, really, and a decent compromise to those who wanted everything to be available. I want to PVP and PVE and harvest and Pickpocket and fish and search for treasure chests but I can spend 3 seconds to switch my gear/cp points since it costs me nothing.

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

itscompton wrote: »

The crafting and gathering should be made passives while things that affect combat such as fall damage reduction and stealth sneak/detection radius are made actives that need to be slotted.

There was an option for that...

virtus753

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I want to PVP and PVE and harvest and Pickpocket and fish and search for treasure chests but I can spend 3 seconds to switch my gear/cp points since it costs me nothing.

Until it costs you 30 seconds to a minute to go from looting a chest to picking up a harvesting node to cracking a chest because of the cooldown. Repeat ad nauseam.

It's particularly noticeable when I'm at crafting stations deconning/refining and see a resource node and then a container and then one and the other and back and forth, etc. etc. It seems ZOS wants me to slot Meticulous Disassembly AND Master Gatherer AND Plentiful Harvest AND Homemaker when I'm in a crafting area like that, but then rearrange everything a few minutes later to add Gifted Rider and Steed's Blessing back. But god forbid I want to move fast and harvest a node and grab that chest all within the span of a minute when I'm out in the wild...

It makes playing the game feel stilted and drawn out in a completely arbitrary way.

There are two related but independent issues here for me:

1) The inconvenient micromanagement of having to swap active stars.

2) The 30-second cooldown between swapping active stars. Many players will be able to swap stars manually in a fraction of that time, especially with practice. If it were just up to how quickly we could do it ourselves, it would still be highly annoying, but not AS annoying as having to wait around to get off cooldown. And if we confirm but have forgotten a star... welp, hurry up and wait some more!

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Its fine to me, for the most part.

Harvesting, Thievery, and Fishing are all things best done in their own time, although I respect that some people do them all at once when they are out.

The food/Drink buffs might need to be passive, and maybe the speed buffs, but I've not really needed them at all.

@PizzaCat82

this is such a strange attitude to me.

I mean I fully understand that people play games differently. And that maybe how green tree is works for some of those different ways.

but to go from works for me to insisting they leave it as it is. even though it really doesnt for others. and that factum seemingly having registered. and they changing it does look like it would still work for those other playstyles..

I look at this and my mind just draws a blank.. like how does that work? I seriously cant connect these dots..

btw.. really just trying to understand.. not trying to attack you or anything...

Because the whole point of CP is you had to make choices on what you wanted. You couldn't have everything

They pretty much got rid of most of that and now say "Ok you can have everything just not at the same time.

A small price to pay, really, and a decent compromise to those who wanted everything to be available. I want to PVP and PVE and harvest and Pickpocket and fish and search for treasure chests but I can spend 3 seconds to switch my gear/cp points since it costs me nothing.

I could live with just crafting and gathering being passive and the rest left as is but making non combat related activities so you either have to spread them among characters or swap between them to make use of them does not enhance gameplay through choices, it just adds one unnecessary task to gameplay.

redspecter23

Other...

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Its fine to me, for the most part.

Harvesting, Thievery, and Fishing are all things best done in their own time, although I respect that some people do them all at once when they are out.

The food/Drink buffs might need to be passive, and maybe the speed buffs, but I've not really needed them at all.

@PizzaCat82

this is such a strange attitude to me.

I mean I fully understand that people play games differently. And that maybe how green tree is works for some of those different ways.

but to go from works for me to insisting they leave it as it is. even though it really doesnt for others. and that factum seemingly having registered. and they changing it does look like it would still work for those other playstyles..

I look at this and my mind just draws a blank.. like how does that work? I seriously cant connect these dots..

btw.. really just trying to understand.. not trying to attack you or anything...

Because the whole point of CP is you had to make choices on what you wanted. You couldn't have everything

They pretty much got rid of most of that and now say "Ok you can have everything just not at the same time.

A small price to pay, really, and a decent compromise to those who wanted everything to be available. I want to PVP and PVE and harvest and Pickpocket and fish and search for treasure chests but I can spend 3 seconds to switch my gear/cp points since it costs me nothing.

The cost in your example is time. You essentially have all those skills available anytime you want them. The cost to you is to open up your CP menu, switch some things around and confirm it between actions.

This is the divisive issue I believe. While some say that's part of the game and is a cost, others don't know why that micromanagement is even necessary if you have all the skills anyway. They can't possibly be used simultaneously so you're not giving up one for the other for game balance reasons.

It's not one side is right and the other is wrong. It's a different way of viewing the exact same situation.

On PC we have an addon that mostly removes the micromanagement minigame and automates the process of swapping skills. It removes the hassle of manually switching and does as good a job as possible at it. Console doesn't have the option so they essentially get extra hoops to jump through that PC does not. All because ZOS believes the micromanagement minigame is an important time sink.

Araneae6537

Other...

I think a few more at least should be passives and that the tree should be more radial in arrangement, especially if most perks are to remain slottable and not passives. Slottables, expensive slottables especially, should seldom be prerequisites, especially for perks totally unrelated.

zaria

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Its fine to me, for the most part.

Harvesting, Thievery, and Fishing are all things best done in their own time, although I respect that some people do them all at once when they are out.

The food/Drink buffs might need to be passive, and maybe the speed buffs, but I've not really needed them at all.

Agree with thievery and fishing. But i tend to farm, open all treasure chests, farm stuff close and open some drawers and dwemer urns questing ,farming skyshards or mage guild books. I also open chests I find during survey runs.
The food one is very nice but something I only care about for expensive and short duration war tortes and xp potions.

Uses jack of all trades but current system is still an pain of micromanagement.

kargen27

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

I like that we can't be good at everything and choices have consequences.

JMadFour

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots divided between red and blue tree.

Yes, the entire green tree should be Passive.

There is nothing there that absolutely should NEED to be slotted.

Give 2 slots each to the other two trees.

Jeremy

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

ThorianB wrote: »

It has been 4 weeks for PC and 3 weeks for Consoles since U29. Everyone has had a chance to use the new system now and get a feel for it. With this in mind, what is your opinion on the green tree having many of its useful abilities as slotables?

Going to side with the majority on this one. I understand the reasoning for the combat-related trees to have limited slots for balancing purposes. But expecting players to have to swap abilities around every time they want to pickpocket, fish or sell their loot etc. seems unnecessary to me and is just a pointless annoyance.

perfiction

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Master Gatherer, Plentiful Harvest, Inspiration Boost and even Treasure Hunter were passives in CP1.0. I see no reason making them slottables now. I'm fine with stealing/sneaking, mount or fishing perks being slottable - they are situational - but crafting/gathering should be passives just like in 1.0.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Other...

The green tree is just a mess. The design is weird, forcing expensive useless stars to unlock useful ones, some things that should probably be slottable arent, and most of the things that shouldnt be slottable are.

In my opinion, things that effect combat should potentially require a slot. Things that have no impact on combat should always be passive.

If anything in the green tree should require a slot, its things like Breakfall, Out of Sight, Fleet Phantom, as all can give you an edge in combat. Weirdly, sustaining shadows, which is similar to OOS and FP is slottable. There is just no consistency.

Clearly, they need a second pass at the green tree. I am almost to 1800. Honestly the only tree that makes me want to grind is the green tree at this point. That seems Bass Ackwards if you ask me.

Mik195

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

I haven't even set my combat passives because of the horrible green tree. I've been logging in, doing my crafting writs and playing something else because I don't like how ridiculously high CP you need to be to be able to gather resources properly and the 40 points into inspiration is infuriating.

jaws343

I don't care either way.

Mik195 wrote: »

I haven't even set my combat passives because of the horrible green tree. I've been logging in, doing my crafting writs and playing something else because I don't like how ridiculously high CP you need to be to be able to gather resources properly and the 40 points into inspiration is infuriating.

You don't have to put 40 points into Inspiration at all. At most you have to put 15 points in. And that is only if you don't go the better route up the tree.

If you put points into Wanderer and Steadfast Enchantment, you can then get to Treasure Hunter and Master Gatherer and Meticulous Disassembly without wasting points in Inspiration. And Wanderer and Steadfast are far more valuable.

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The green tree is just a mess. The design is weird, forcing expensive useless stars to unlock useful ones, some things that should probably be slottable arent, and most of the things that shouldnt be slottable are.

In my opinion, things that effect combat should potentially require a slot. Things that have no impact on combat should always be passive.

If anything in the green tree should require a slot, its things like Breakfall, Out of Sight, Fleet Phantom, as all can give you an edge in combat. Weirdly, sustaining shadows, which is similar to OOS and FP is slottable. There is just no consistency.

Clearly, they need a second pass at the green tree. I am almost to 1800. Honestly the only tree that makes me want to grind is the green tree at this point. That seems Bass Ackwards if you ask me.

i am hoping them we can get them to give the green tree a second look if popular opinion says that we need redo what requires slotting and what doesn't.

zaria

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Jeremy wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

It has been 4 weeks for PC and 3 weeks for Consoles since U29. Everyone has had a chance to use the new system now and get a feel for it. With this in mind, what is your opinion on the green tree having many of its useful abilities as slotables?

Going to side with the majority on this one. I understand the reasoning for the combat-related trees to have limited slots for balancing purposes. But expecting players to have to swap abilities around every time they want to pickpocket, fish or sell their loot etc. seems unnecessary to me and is just a pointless annoyance.

Agree, in the combat tree it make sense, you might want to sacrifice dps for more survival as an example or do more damage on an tank in easy dungeons.

Merforum

Other...

ThorianB wrote: »

It has been 4 weeks for PC and 3 weeks for Consoles since U29. Everyone has had a chance to use the new system now and get a feel for it. With this in mind, what is your opinion on the green tree having many of its useful abilities as slotables?

The one that allows gathering to be quick definitely should be a passive. I made sure to always get the CP1 that unlocked that before now that it is a slottable picking up nodes is a pain. I actually think they should just let you use the fast animation all the time pick up nodes, it makes no sense to even have that slow animation, but a slottable for it is ridiculous.

And as others have said things like fishing being hidden behind other stuff that costs 75 pnts just to get to doesn't make sense. Both directions actually, how many points does it cost just to get to blade of woe node.

SeaGtGruff

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

I think we should all just get used to it.

Yes, it's annoying to have to switch between certain skills from time to time, because we might forget to switch and end up getting less gold from a fence, or fewer items from refining and deconstructing, etc.

But that isn't the end of the world, and the responsibility for slotting and unslotting our active skills has been given to us, so the sooner we face up to that and develop a mindfulness about it, the fewer "Oops!" moments we'll have.

Having skills that need to be slotted is in keeping with the way the fromt and back ability bars work. It allows for more diverse builds as far as different players having different skills slotted, as opposed to everyone running around with essentially the same skills as each other. Even if everyone ends up having the same overall set of skills to choose from, having to choose which ones we want to slot creates variety.

If ZOS ever decides to cave to the playerbase on this issue, I think I'd rather see it changed so we still have just 12 slots, and all of the skills remain passive or active as they are now, but we have some flexibility in how many skills we slot from each of the trees, such as 6-3-3, or 1-3-8, or 5-4-3, etc. Perhaps there could be a minimum and maximum for any given tree, like 2 slots minimum and 8 slots maximum, or 3 slots minimum and 6 slots maximum.

But for now, I'd prefer to get used to the new system as it is rather than having it be changed so soon after its introduction.

Merforum

Other...

virtus753 wrote: »

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

I think you are correct about most of these numbers but there is a difference in speed for sure. At a minimum, I do writs and/or daily dungeons on 5-13 toons a day and notice a distinct noticeable difference in mount speed, sprint speed, normal speed often. I think they are tweaking the base speed value in every maintenance at least. it goes from super fast to super slow to a little faster to slow again, they can't seem to decide. It seems like they should reduce the number of buffs to speed because can't make up their mind where the speed is correct, someone with all buffs is too fast and with no buffs too slow.