Should the Craft(green) tree skills be made passive?

carly

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

I'm with it the way it is. You should be rewarded for the time and effort you put in to the game.

virtus753

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Merforum wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

I think you are correct about most of these numbers but there is a difference in speed for sure. At a minimum, I do writs and/or daily dungeons on 5-13 toons a day and notice a distinct noticeable difference in mount speed, sprint speed, normal speed often. I think they are tweaking the base speed value in every maintenance at least. it goes from super fast to super slow to a little faster to slow again, they can't seem to decide. It seems like they should reduce the number of buffs to speed because can't make up their mind where the speed is correct, someone with all buffs is too fast and with no buffs too slow.

It's easy to measure speed on PC/Mac with Fyrakin's minimap. (Other add-ons may do this as well.) While add-ons are of course not available on console, I sincerely doubt they're tweaking console speeds every patch when they're not tweaking PC/Mac speeds. There just wouldn't seem to be a point.

That said, there is some natural variation in movement and mounted speed and in our perception of it.

Smaller toons seem like they move faster because they are smaller. In reality toons of all sizes move at the same actual speed as long as they have the same buffs. This is measurable.

Another issue is that toons and mounts easily get hung up on terrain irregularities, so speeds are constantly vascillating around the calculated speed. Hitting an invisible terrain bump can make your mount slow down by a very noticeable amount until it recovers. Likewise, with this Steed's Blessing passive, all my toons get bumped up in the air as they run along the platform outside the Mages Guild in Rawl'kha. They aren't jumping -- they're just running and get thrown up in the air a bit for funsies due to something in the terrain and the game engine's physics.

It's also possible to go faster than the nominal speeds by jumping or (on a mount in keyboard mode) reapplying sprint every few seconds.

A speed monitor like the one with the minimap add-on will show you that the movement/mounted speed is never perfectly stable, so it could be a combination of these natural variations that you're noticing.

Dagoth_Rac

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots divided between red and blue tree.

The entire tree is almost completely QoL features. QoL is exactly the kind of stuff you should be given, no strings attached, as reward for being a long time player with lots of CP. Slottables should be reserved for things that affect combat, like more DPS, more mitigation, more sustain, etc. Don't make dedicated players jump through hoops for simple convenience.

Hapexamendios

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots divided between red and blue tree.

Pretty much the whole green tree should be passives as far as I'm concerned.

redspecter23

Other...

carly wrote: »

I'm with it the way it is. You should be rewarded for the time and effort you put in to the game.

Opening up the cp menu, reslotting an ability and hitting "confirm" counts as time and effort?

That's the issue that is being discussed here. Whether or not that sort of micromanagement and time sink is appropriate. If that's what you're talking about, I apologize. Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to make sure that's the "time and effort" you're referring to. Nobody is saying that higher cp players shouldn't have advantages, just that a large amount of players don't want to constantly juggle slottables every time the situation comes up that it would be beneficial to change them.

FriedEggSandwich

Other...

I'm not thrilled with it, but I don't have any suggestions to improve it. It feels boring and lacklustre to me if I'm honest, compared to the other 2 trees at least, and I don't like that my node harvesting speed is significantly slower than it used to be, even though I have points in the passive that increases it. It looks like I'm going to have to max that passive out to get back to my old harvesting speed. My muscle memory is ruined lol. It sort of feels like they struggled for ideas with this tree. I don't get why Meticulous Disassembly, Fade Away and Treasure Hunter have no stages and require 50 points minimum when everything else has stages. What's so precious about the stuff above them? I like being able to run faster though, that's quite nice tbh, and I feel like that should be slottable as it will defo help in combat (pvp at least).

Sylvermynx

Other...

Eh, right now, I'm just dealing with it. I generally craft, farm, etc. on all my characters whichever one of them I'm on at a given time. So everyone gets green tree slotted for as much as the cp will provide (not bad at all on my two PC NA accounts, not good at all on my two PC EU accounts).

On PC EU, I've been gritting my teeth because neither one has enough cp at this point to get both meticulous disassembly and plentiful harvest, much less treasure hunter and homemaker!

So yeah. Kind of annoying.

Hurbster

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Feel like I'm being punished for playing too long.

Oh, is this the idea of 'meaningful choices' that mmo devs are determined to force upon the players?

rpa

Other...

Green tree is a perfect example of using a good design to application where it does not work. So we have to wait until whoever approved that is out of danger of losing their face before it can be fixed.

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Hurbster wrote: »

Feel like I'm being punished for playing too long.

Oh, is this the idea of 'meaningful choices' that mmo devs are determined to force upon the players?

Yeah, i don't consider these choices to be meaningful. And i really hate that i have put points into things i never would use to get to things i would. Why? Its not a skill/tech progression tree. Nothing on the route i have to take to get to the thing i want is related to the thing i want. It makes zero sense why i have to go through completely unrelated abilities and waste CP and then i have to slot the abilities i want to use. Its like salt in a wound.

SilverBride

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

I love the new CP system. For the first time ever I feel confident to trust my own intuition instead of relying on what others recommend.

Most of the skills are passive. It's just a handful you have to choose from to slot. I see nothing wrong with having to make choices.

Merforum

Other...

virtus753 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

VDoom1 wrote: »

When I first logged in after U29 and mounted up I was like "hmm...slower, weird."

They didn't actually make mounts slower, though. Without taking the mounted speed CP (Gifted Rider), you are still just about at the same mounted speed as before:

115% base mount speed
30% (additive) from sprinting
60% (additive) from mount training
30% (multiplicative) from Major Gallop - now a permanent passive under Continuous Attack rather than an activated bonus from Rapid Maneuver (also a permanent buff with Adept Rider)
10% (multiplicative) from Gifted Rider CP - an entirely new mount speed bonus introduced with CP 2.0

ETA: The only thing they changed was Windrunning (2%) from CP 1.0. On a fully trained toon, a 2% percentage point difference (so 205% --> 207%) is a difference of less than 1% (i.e. not noticeable).

I think you are correct about most of these numbers but there is a difference in speed for sure. At a minimum, I do writs and/or daily dungeons on 5-13 toons a day and notice a distinct noticeable difference in mount speed, sprint speed, normal speed often. I think they are tweaking the base speed value in every maintenance at least. it goes from super fast to super slow to a little faster to slow again, they can't seem to decide. It seems like they should reduce the number of buffs to speed because can't make up their mind where the speed is correct, someone with all buffs is too fast and with no buffs too slow.

It's easy to measure speed on PC/Mac with Fyrakin's minimap. (Other add-ons may do this as well.) While add-ons are of course not available on console, I sincerely doubt they're tweaking console speeds every patch when they're not tweaking PC/Mac speeds. There just wouldn't seem to be a point.

That said, there is some natural variation in movement and mounted speed and in our perception of it.

Smaller toons seem like they move faster because they are smaller. In reality toons of all sizes move at the same actual speed as long as they have the same buffs. This is measurable.

Another issue is that toons and mounts easily get hung up on terrain irregularities, so speeds are constantly vascillating around the calculated speed. Hitting an invisible terrain bump can make your mount slow down by a very noticeable amount until it recovers. Likewise, with this Steed's Blessing passive, all my toons get bumped up in the air as they run along the platform outside the Mages Guild in Rawl'kha. They aren't jumping -- they're just running and get thrown up in the air a bit for funsies due to something in the terrain and the game engine's physics.

It's also possible to go faster than the nominal speeds by jumping or (on a mount in keyboard mode) reapplying sprint every few seconds.

A speed monitor like the one with the minimap add-on will show you that the movement/mounted speed is never perfectly stable, so it could be a combination of these natural variations that you're noticing.

I actually do have an addon that shows the speed on the screen but haven't written down the numbers. I'll have to do that to see if it is just perception. I agree there is an insane number of place that knock horse and toon out of sprint. Can't believe you can literally run through other players even in PVP but a tiny pebble on the ground will knock your horse off balance. Oh and what I hate even more is some archways literally knock you off your horse for no reason.

Hotdog_23

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Green tree is a mess and should have a lot more passives in it. Punishes higher CP players who have put time in the game.

Rationer is only something you use every 1-3 hours of play time feels like a penalty really. Been in a trial or dungeon and food run out. Easy enough to eat more in the heat of battle but not if you have to re-slot skills for it. Which does not happen, so you lose out on a passive you have earned and spent CP for. Eat your food early so it doesn't run out you say. Then what's the point of the passive if I have to eat early anyway. "Hehehehe" Where is that laughing coming from?

Gifted rider and War Mount yeah never using those at all on console maybe PC folks with the Jack of all trades probably fixes that for them but sure go ahead and penalize console players for not being able to use add-ons. Not stopping to change slots before and after every time I ride a mount. "Hehehehe" There is is again.

Master Gatherer why make this a skill you must slot to get. Used to get free. Maybe if you bring it back to free you will fix the bank lag. Dead silence, maybe that person laughing has moved on.

Professional upkeep same as Master Gatherer just why? Is it because you hate us and want to frustrate console players and PC players who don’t use an add-on? Here have this awesome passive but don’t forget to slot it. “Hehehehe” ZOS laughing at us in the background.

Fade away, Mr Unkillable and quickly OP Guard person can you wait until I pull up my menu and change my CP passive so I can use this great tool I have to use in the off change you would chase me. I can see Looney Toons cartoon as this is playing out. ZOS I love cartoons. Graphics=Cartoons.

Sustaining shadows, Mr Deer boss in MOS before you come after me I need to watch Looney Toons again and change my CP. Thanks for understanding here have a sword up side of the head for your troubles or a staff where the sun doesn’t shine. “Hehehehe” Where is that laughing coming from?

Lost heart to go thru anymore of the green but you get the point. It sucks.


Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

tomofhyrule

I don't care either way.

I have a feeling that they knew what they were doing when they put this out. They designed the whole CP presentation around "choice," and kept saying things like "oh, we have the choice to do this or that, depending on what you slot, etc." They really want us to have to choose what we want to do, and that involves sacrificing things. Red and Blue (I'm still calling them Warrior and Mage for Lore's sake, idc what they renamed them to) are easy since that's got your damage and mitigation stuff. But to balance the 4-slots-for-each in the green tree, which was mostly noncombat stuff, then it gets messy.

Yes, PC has an addon that can mitigate the micromanagement. And then ZOS added a cooldown that seemed to do nothing but squash that specific addon.

It really seems like they are still pushing for a choice: do you want to waste the time to micromanage and squeeze every little bit out, or are you okay with sacrificing that last few fractions of a percent of profit for your sanity?

Besides, this is only really a problem for people with high CP who can afford all of these points, so this could also be considered another way of ZOS wanting to prevent 'the rich get richer' from only letting high-CP players squeeze every last gold coin, while a newer player has to take what they can get.

Even if that were the case though, I would have changed some things. The repair cost reduction or the 1000 per day bounty reduction being slottable make no sense since you use it for half a second and that's it. Breakfall also would have made a good slottable since it's something that could be combat-useful.

However - and I know this is an unpopular opinion - I have no problem with Meticulous Disassembly, Treasure Hunter, Plentiful Harvest and the like being slottable. TH and PH because they're something that you don't know when you'll run across a node or chest so it acts as an 'always on' thing, and MD and things like the increase Fencing profits one or the increase pickpocket quality one because there are passives that do those, so this is still further increasing those things for characters who choose to specialize.

Xuhora

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Michae

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

For me the tree is backwards. Breakfall, stealth radius and such should be the ones that have to be slotted. The gathering stuff is just tedious. In the other trees it's obvious that you won't be swapping slots in combat situaations and the different stars reflect various aspects of the same things, like sustain, damage or mobility. Here we have three completely different skill lines, that shouldn't really be mutually exclusive (a good thief could really be a quite good fisherman and such) and can be reslotted since they don't usually are used in dynamic situations (which in turn just makes this whole thing tedious and not meaningful gameplay choice). I'd say, turn this thing on it's head and make stealth radius, speed buffs and breakfall slottables and free up the hunter gatherer stuff.

DreadDaedroth

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots divided between red and blue tree.

And un nerf the reduced gold from chests and similar stuff made up with new CPs.

heaven13

Other...

I posted this in another thread about the issue.

I can understand certain nodes being slottable because they can possibly impact combat. However, half of these are not currently slottables. It's like ZoS got it completely backwards.

Passives that should be Slottables - can impact combat

• Breakfall - particularly in PvP
• Steadfast Enchantment
• Out of Sight
• Fleet Phantom

"Correct" Slottables - impacts combat in some way

• Liquid Efficiency
• Sustaining Shadows
• Gifted Rider
• Shadowstrike

Slottables that should be Passives - no impact on combat, having them as slottables currently affects/discourages immersive gameplay where one just wanders and interacts with Tamriel

• Treasure Hunter
• Meticulous Disassembly
• Master Gatherer
• Plentiful Harvest
• Homemaker - this node needs work in general anyway
• Professional Upkeep
• Steed's Blessing - it's out of combat anyway, why also slottable?
• War Mount - again, out of combat only. No need to take up a slot.
• Friends in Low Places - this has such a specific set of conditions to work that it shouldn't need a slot.
• Reel Technique
• Angler's Insticts
• Cutpurse's Art
• Infamous
• Fade Away

I'm on the fence about Rationer. Could go either way and I'd be fine with it. Since you only need to slot it at the moment you eat to get the extended buff it seems like a wasted passive, imo.

By going with the above proposed division of slottables and passives, there are still some decisions to make. Do you want to be fast? Are you involved in sneaky pursuits? Will minimizing potion consumption and weapon decay help in your trial or dungeon? But it's not the absolute cluster duck that it is now where I can't do anything without stopping to change CP (manually, mind you) and being told I can't do that right now because it took me less than 30 seconds to get from a treasure chest to a harvesting node to a backpack.

Septimus_Magna

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

Its just annoying to swap Meticulous Disassembly before refining mats or swap Master Gatherer and Plentiful Harvest before tracking down surveys. After this event I will busy for a while to complete all the surveys so I will swap CP stars then.

Abelon

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

If the only problem people are having is micromanagement and having to swap the slotables... Maybe ZOS should add more restrictions to the swapping.

You don't need any of the green passives to continue doing corresponding content. You do not need to swap Meticulous Disassembly for Infamous or whatever else. You want to, because you want to have all the bonuses at once. But they are just bonuses. ZOS wanted players to make choices with this new system, that's the point of the slots. Why should the green tree be exempt from this? Why don't you ask to have all the blue slotables turned into passives as well?

I understand the wish to have all the bonuses at once, it's only natural. But games have limitations and game designers decide where to put them. We also have 5 skill slots instead of 50... And now we have 4 slots for passives instead of none. I see no issues here.

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

Abelon

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

ThorianB wrote: »

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

There are more "worth to slot" blues for pretty much any build, than there are slots. There are many dps increasing slotables in there that dps builds would want. But of course they only select 4. People think, test, decide and then only slot 4. And the same thing applies to greens.

ivelbob

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

I slot what's important to me and leave the rest. Do I care about optimizing every act of flower picking, chest opening or jewelry deconstruction? No.

I can live with technical limitations like ZOS not wanting the servers to calculate the math for tons of passives on every player.

And if everything was a passive, there would be so much more pressure to keep grinding more CP to fill them and the end point would be so far away.

Zodiarkslayer

Other...

Every cp node should be a slotable one! And there should be 8 slots, not 4.

Now THAT is the performance increase that they promised wirh the new system!

@Xuhora Eierlegende Wollmilchsau!😂 Das trifft es.

Xuhora

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

virtus753

The crafting and gathering slotables should be made passive. Everything else should be left as is.

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

And un nerf the reduced gold from chests and similar stuff made up with new CPs.

But they didn't nerf gold from chests. Lots of players saw decreased gold from chests after the patch because we had been benefitting from increased gold in chests due to CP 1.0 (Fortune Seeker). Remove that CP passive, and of course we'll go back to less gold. If we want to get back to the same level of gold, we still need to do it through the CP system through the same node (just called Fortune's Favor now). What changed is that we now need to invest a lot more CP directly into the star instead of just 10 in a given tree, but the base gold received from chests didn't change, and the maximum potential of gold gained specifically from chests/safeboxes through that CP star didn't change.

With Gilded Fingers on top of Fortune's Favor (yes, they stack) we can actually get more from chests than we ever could before under CP 1.0. And since Gilded Fingers improves gold gained from a variety of sources (not just chests/safeboxes/thieves troves, but also quests and mobs), the potential for making more gold is significantly better with CP 2.0.

Same with horse speed (as above). They at least quintupled the gain from Windrunning when they turned that into Gifted Rider.

Same with results from refining. There are numbers proving that without Meticulous Disassembly, the rates are the same as they were before. MD increases the rates, as intended. It may not feel that way to players in the moment, but the numbers show that that's our perception coloring the facts.

jaws343

I don't care either way.

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

But it costs nothing to swap the passive. That is the problem. It's free to swap, just needlessly tedious. It isn't a sacrifice.

The difference with the blue and red trees is they cannot swap in combat. So you cannot swap them to a better setup midway through a fight. You are locked in until after the encounter. That is a sacrifice, and is fine, because it is actually combat related and should require choices.

ivelbob wrote: »

I slot what's important to me and leave the rest. Do I care about optimizing every act of flower picking, chest opening or jewelry deconstruction? No.

I can live with technical limitations like ZOS not wanting the servers to calculate the math for tons of passives on every player.

And if everything was a passive, there would be so much more pressure to keep grinding more CP to fill them and the end point would be so far away.

The Green tree still requires choices of where to spend points, and players will still be able to grind CP to unlock all slottables and still be able to freely move the slottables around as needed in the current implementation. In fact, grinding CP to unlock all of the slottables would entirely remove the need to pay gold to respec every time a player decides to move from Thieving to Fishing. So no, having them as passives wouldn't change the desire to grind CP.

ThorianB

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

remosito

The entire tree should be made passive and the slots just removed from the game( for balance.)

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

nothing meaningful about it whatsoever in my book ... just tediousness

Abelon

It's fine as is. Leave it alone.

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

i dont understand why the slottables in red and blue a accepted under the premise of character building but the green slottables are not.
for me its the same and it works in the whole new concept of cp 2.0. thief type, gatherer type, sustaining type, money type or a mix of the lot.
i guess the reason for the outcry about the green tree is because all of them seem worth to slot, so im my eyes its actually a good tree. the player must choose, calculate the ROI if you want.
If people feel the need to change the slots before they do a certain activity they just see the possible reward of having this active slot, but dont want to bear the investmentcost of changing the slot itself.

i feel like if someone says "well duuhhh, i have to change the blue active slot before i flank an enemy this is not a good system, because if the mob turns arround i have to change the slot again because its now useless" this would be shrugged upon, since you decide beforehand what type you are.

i do not think its a perfect system and they should put some more work into it, but it works fine as a concept and its strictly followed. what i mean by that is that the design of having to slot certain stars is a good implementation, brings the range of playerpower closer together between 300 CP and 1700 CPs. this design is rightfully adapted into the green tree as well, sure green does not impact combat, but the whole concept is to have to make choices on what you want your character to be.

In german we have the phrase of the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which (egglaying woolmilkpig) meaning someone/something that can do it all without any downside. the green CP dont allow you to be the eierlegende Wollmilchsau, and thats a good choice in my opinion

Because red and blue impact combat and people generally set their characters up for one combat playstyle or rarely change combat playstyles. Whereas when it comes to non combat activities, a lot of us do that on a single character while our combat focused characters tend to do very little of it. I don't run around on character A and do treasure maps and then hop on character B and do gathering, and then hop on character C and do fishing.

Also many of the carryovers from CP 1.0 in this tree were not only passive but free. So i am being punished twice for having plentiful harvest for example. Now i have to pay for it AND slot it. Any time i leave the city i have to have the gathering ones slotted because i gather nodes on all my characters when i run by them. I also need to have homemaker slotted because i also loot containers while i am out and about.

I have 3 mandatory slots right there. I don't find having 1 active slot and a bunch of passives i don't find that useful and can live without to be about choices. It actually restricts my choices and forces me into a singular playstyle. I am never going to explore other options on the green tree because the most important and used stars on the tree are considered mandatory for anyone who gathers, crafts, and/or trades. That is not more choice, that is less choice under the facade of freedom of choice.

The system is ok when it comes to combat because then you choose how to build your character and you play that "style" until you want to try a different style. With the craft tree you are being penalized for your style being gatherer/crafter and most of us have a main crafter/gather. Mine sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting but this actually makes that playstyle a PITA.

and that is what i mean with ROI (Return Of Interest). you want the reward of plentiful harvest but you are not willing to pay the interest i.e. having it slotted permanently like me or investing 3k everytime you walk by a flower and feel the need to change it.
Again i stand by the fact, build the type of character you want (be it flanking in blue or be it plentiful harvest in green) and stick with it. If you feel the need to change it every 30 seconds, well pay the cost for it. it a meaningfull choice and you have to bear the consequences.

your character sacrifices combat abilities to be more efficient at gathering and crafting? you meen the falldmg? or what?

You are missing the point here. Because that is considered a mandatory slot by most crafters and gathers, it's not about giving us options and making good choices. Many of us consider plentiful harvest to be a requirement when we are out like trial players require good food to be a requirement. So there is no consideration there. It is a "must have". Now we are just swapping a slots a lot which defeats another purpose of CP 2.0 and that is to reduce server load. We are creating extra load with a tedious mechanic that adds nothing of value to gameplay and takes away choices not provides more. It is the opposite of every goal they said they wanted out of CP 2.0.

Not having food might get you kicked, it is a requirement that is imposed on you by other players. Plentiful harvest is only a requirement because you decide to impose it on yourselves. Nobody else is forcing you to take it. So... don't. Or do, instead of a different slotable.

And you are not being "penalized" for anything. Nothing but a bonus that you could potentially have is taken away from you. If you were getting 1 material before, you are still getting 1 material... No penalty here.