The tank meta gets worse and worse, Hard caps desperately needed in PvP

Vevvev

vms11934 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Lol ganker complaining about toughness. Classic.

Not sure if you're referencing me or not. But anyway, the problem isn't just toughness. Sure, be super tanky and almost impossible to kill. But you shouldn't be able to lay waste to the opposition while being so.

Broken game.

Wouldn't say it's tankiness but rather healing. I've fought some incredibly heavy hitting Templars, but looking at their HP and resistances they're actually kind of squishy.... well.... if you could live long enough to throw a punch back. Part of their survivability is the healing they're able to put out.

There comes a point where you can stack enough resistances and health to where it doesn't compromise too heavily your damage and healing. A sort of midway point if you will, and it's around the 28-35k health mark. Using sets like Balorgh you can bide your time building ultimate while surviving someone's onslaught before popping an ultimate and going on the defensive. The massive injection of penetration also can cut deeply into your opponent's defenses making this supposedly pure tank build into a deadly damage dealer. In reality what's going on is their offensive stats are pumping their heals up, they have just enough health and resistances to stay alive while the healing works it's magic, and then they have a way to go from the defensive to the offensive whether it be in the form of an ability or set.

SigmarusWyrmborn

The great part if this game is playing what you want and how you want. It is like adapt and overcome and do your thang. The game is always evolving and can never be perfect so find your playstyle and have fun if not there is always PVE

baselesschart

SigmarusWyrmborn wrote: »

The great part if this game is playing what you want and how you want. It is like adapt and overcome and do your thang. The game is always evolving and can never be perfect so find your playstyle and have fun if not there is always PVE

That's sort of what they have tried to convey to get new people to play the game, but honestly it could not be further from the truth. New players are going to be continually frustrated in pvp if they try to run anything but the meta. The unfortunate truth is that not every playstyle remains completely viable, only the best players can excel at classes and/or builds that are fairly low in the hierarchy.

PvE has suffered the same way. Its no coincidence that all meta dps builds are undeniably the same with the only difference separating them is whether they are mag or stam and what class they are.

The game has not lived up to its "play how you want" claim in a very long time

EmperorIl

Watching 20 people attacking one tank to slowly bring them down to zero health is fun. Not.

gamma71

TheEndBringer wrote: »

vms11934 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

buzzclops wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.

[edited for rude comment]

Exactly this.

Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.

I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.

People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.

I'm on PS4 NA too and the tanky crap seems rampant to me. I may not be tops in dps, but I'm no slouch. Before the update, I was running MA and Carluurions and was able to do 70-100k in 1.1 seconds to a 6 mil dummy. One time, a necro just stood there while I was trying to take a resource (all guards were dead already). He didn't attack me because it seems like he knew I couldn't kill him. I would unload on him and he would maybe get to half life and heal to full right away. Total futility.

After the update, while running an experimental build that doesn't do nearly as much dps (only around 5k weapon damage and around 6k pen, 45% crit chance, but with Scavenging proc), I came across an afk S&B player during a keep siege. He didn't do anything. No heals, no blocking. Nothing. Which also means I didn't have to divert time to healing myself, dodging, running, etc. Took me about 15 seconds to kill him. Again, I know it wasn't a top dps build, but it's not complete [snip] either. What is complete [snip] is that someone can take that long to kill while afk. I would have absolutely no chance whatsoever 1v1 against them.

This game is broken.

Yeah like I said above I don't believe PS players don't run meta like everyone else, and right now meta is DK, Necro and templar tanks that are eating everything thrown at them while also dealing crazy damage.

I've tried the DK build just to see so I know how to attack them on my NB. It's dumb easy to 1vX entire groups then turn around and dragon leap them into oblivion.

This isn't a DK problem though. This is an issue with the idea that someone can build 33k+ health and 33k+armor with 2 defensive sets while still outputting 6k+ damage.

I wanna know exactly what there using. I think people exaggerate on these tank builds. I just don't see how you can have it all. I'm constantly tweaking my builds but something has to give.
The guys I run into that are true tanks can take a beating but there not killing anybody except maybe that guy that's running with 17k health and all in divines.

I got blown up bye a 54k vicious death last night I'm more pissed off by that easy mode skilless play than a tank. And that's why people make tanky builds.

[edited to remove quote]

divnyi

gamma71 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

vms11934 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

buzzclops wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.

[edited for rude comment]

Exactly this.

Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.

I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.

People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.

I'm on PS4 NA too and the tanky crap seems rampant to me. I may not be tops in dps, but I'm no slouch. Before the update, I was running MA and Carluurions and was able to do 70-100k in 1.1 seconds to a 6 mil dummy. One time, a necro just stood there while I was trying to take a resource (all guards were dead already). He didn't attack me because it seems like he knew I couldn't kill him. I would unload on him and he would maybe get to half life and heal to full right away. Total futility.

After the update, while running an experimental build that doesn't do nearly as much dps (only around 5k weapon damage and around 6k pen, 45% crit chance, but with Scavenging proc), I came across an afk S&B player during a keep siege. He didn't do anything. No heals, no blocking. Nothing. Which also means I didn't have to divert time to healing myself, dodging, running, etc. Took me about 15 seconds to kill him. Again, I know it wasn't a top dps build, but it's not complete [snip] either. What is complete [snip] is that someone can take that long to kill while afk. I would have absolutely no chance whatsoever 1v1 against them.

This game is broken.

Yeah like I said above I don't believe PS players don't run meta like everyone else, and right now meta is DK, Necro and templar tanks that are eating everything thrown at them while also dealing crazy damage.

I've tried the DK build just to see so I know how to attack them on my NB. It's dumb easy to 1vX entire groups then turn around and dragon leap them into oblivion.

This isn't a DK problem though. This is an issue with the idea that someone can build 33k+ health and 33k+armor with 2 defensive sets while still outputting 6k+ damage.

I wanna know exactly what there using. I think people exaggerate on these tank builds.

Something something Balorgh + Malacath + backbar-able set + frontbar set, all sturdy, all swift, blockheal and LoS all day.

And yeah, he is exaggerating. Mainly at the point where he says they deal the same damage as low HP chars. They deal enough burst to kill squishys, but guess what? Glasscannon NBs kill squishys in 2 GCD straight, and if you aim for longer (higher damage) burst, you can also do more than whatever those build do, even without ultis.

And he skips inconvenient truth that you can slot a single gaze and swap a bit of stats to HP and you'll be out of range for that burst. It's dead easy to be a fighter now (in 26-29k HP range) with double offense sets. People are sleeping on this.

[edited to remove quote]

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

Lol ganker complaining about toughness. Classic.

Trying to turn a legitimate issue into "upset NBs" is a bad faith argument. Yes pure damage builds are struggling to compete but it's not about 1v1. It's about ttk going through the roof because a 5 man tank group can wipe a 12 man non tank group in 2 seconds, but 20 non tanks need 10 minutes to kill those same 5.

There is no balance, there is only Zuul.

auz

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Lol ganker complaining about toughness. Classic.

Trying to turn a legitimate issue into "upset NBs" is a bad faith argument. Yes pure damage builds are struggling to compete but it's not about 1v1. It's about ttk going through the roof because a 5 man tank group can wipe a 12 man non tank group in 2 seconds, but 20 non tanks need 10 minutes to kill those same 5.

There is no balance, there is only Zuul.

I am not even sure what this post is complaining about anymore. Is the problem that a tank specced to take damage takes 20 people to kill? Or is that a group of 5 wiped a 12 man? Or is it that a solo open world build can fight multiple people?
A tank that takes 20 people to kill doesn't do enough damage to kill a ganker. They are a walking ult gen station. Let everyone LA, build ult and walk on. Or not.
If a 5 man wipes your 12 man, that is a problem with the 12 man. I doubt any of the 5 man are tanks. Coordinate ults and work together. They are.
A solo with enough damage to kill your group would probably get smacked up side down in open field by a group that communicated. Don't follow them in towers. Or let them LOS you.
How can you complain about TTK in the same breath as saying a 20 man took 10 mins to kill 5? It sounds like your group needs some work.
Also damage is high. If your ganker is struggling, you are doing it wrong.
Stop blaming others for L2P issues.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Lol ganker complaining about toughness. Classic.

It's about ttk going through the roof because a 5 man tank group can wipe a 12 man non tank group in 2 seconds

You mean 5 veterans can wipe 12 newbies? Because if you have 12 NB group, you can coordinate burst and down em one by one ez. If you have like 2 healers and 10 fighter builds those 5 bruisers don't stand a chance too, they gonna be mutilated on initial impact and outsustained later.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Lol ganker complaining about toughness. Classic.

It's about ttk going through the roof because a 5 man tank group can wipe a 12 man non tank group in 2 seconds

You mean 5 veterans can wipe 12 newbies? Because if you have 12 NB group, you can coordinate burst and down em one by one ez. If you have like 2 healers and 10 fighter builds those 5 bruisers don't stand a chance too, they gonna be mutilated on initial impact and outsustained later.

Respectfully, no I'm not talking any "5 vets" vs 12 newbies. I'm talking about a coordinated 12 man group of damage dealers who want to play classes other than the current easy mode immortal builds people get off YouTube running into brick walls who's only skill is blocking till ultimate before dropping 12+ leaps with VD.

Let's be real. There's a certain amount of player base that flocks to the easy dumb builds at the start of every patch. Within a couple weeks, that number grows as people get tired of their preferred classes struggling disproportionately. By the end of the first month, 75%+ of Cyro players are running these set ups.

The issue here is the significant amount of sources of new mitigation has extended ttk to a point where combat is either boring or frustrating to the point where people sign off. ZOS tried to counter balance this by lowering healing in battle spirit but it really has made no difference. All three meta classes right now can wave their hand and heal to 100% even when facing insurmountable odds.

Here's the hard truth.

People are going all in on these cheese builds because they don't want to die but they also want to do immense damage. This patch is a wet dream come true for these players.

There is no skill in blocking and heal stacking, vamp 3, major and minor protection, etc etc. I understand why people enjoy this kind of game play because it's easy AP. Guards are no threat. Siege is no threat. Have you tried defending a keep? It's a mess because multiple siege engines can hit one small group on a ram and not put a dent in them.

I play every class. I know exactly how this works. There are no counters to this current tank meta other than to either join em or overwhelm them 10 to 1, and even then it's no guarantee.

So can we at least be honest that there is a tank meta and ttk is much larger than it should be?

TheS1X

vms11934 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Lol ganker complaining about toughness. Classic.

Not sure if you're referencing me or not. But anyway, the problem isn't just toughness. Sure, be super tanky and almost impossible to kill. But you shouldn't be able to lay waste to the opposition while being so.

Broken game.

Agree with that statement!!!
If someone is building a tank, it should not heal and deal damage like a boss.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a mess because multiple siege engines can hit one small group on a ram and not put a dent in them.

Because siege dots should not be cleansable.
Cyro is a mess overall, luckily, that's not only PvP in this game.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Respectfully, no I'm not talking any "5 vets" vs 12 newbies. I'm talking about a coordinated 12 man group of damage dealers who want to play classes other than the current easy mode immortal builds people get off YouTube running into brick walls who's only skill is blocking till ultimate before dropping 12+ leaps with VD.

This is cool story, but I'm running my crit stacking build with healer mates and our smallscale 2-3 ppl group is able to put down any single player (sometimes not very fast). Healers aren't even running much damage, I'm moderately squishy DPS of the party, but I don't go down unless opponents coordinate burst very well or I screw up and don't react properly. If opponent tries to outheal, we outsustain.

I can't imagine group of 12 vet players not being able to down someone, unless that's full permablock (and even that can go down with Plaguebreak today).

TheEndBringer wrote: »

People are going all in on these cheese builds because they don't want to die but they also want to do immense damage. This patch is a wet dream come true for these players.

Agree with first sentence (because that's definition of the build), disagree with second. This patch leaves not so many unscaled sources of damage, especially compared to patches we had before.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There is no skill in blocking and heal stacking, vamp 3, major and minor protection, etc etc.

When I hear "XXX is no skill", it often means "XXX is hard counter to my gameplay and I don't know it's weaknesses".

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a mess because multiple siege engines can hit one small group on a ram and not put a dent in them.

Because siege dots should not be cleansable.
Cyro is a mess overall, luckily, that's not only PvP in this game.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Respectfully, no I'm not talking any "5 vets" vs 12 newbies. I'm talking about a coordinated 12 man group of damage dealers who want to play classes other than the current easy mode immortal builds people get off YouTube running into brick walls who's only skill is blocking till ultimate before dropping 12+ leaps with VD.

This is cool story, but I'm running my crit stacking build with healer mates and our smallscale 2-3 ppl group is able to put down any single player (sometimes not very fast). Healers aren't even running much damage, I'm moderately squishy DPS of the party, but I don't go down unless opponents coordinate burst very well or I screw up and don't react properly. If opponent tries to outheal, we outsustain.

I can't imagine group of 12 vet players not being able to down someone, unless that's full permablock (and even that can go down with Plaguebreak today).

TheEndBringer wrote: »

People are going all in on these cheese builds because they don't want to die but they also want to do immense damage. This patch is a wet dream come true for these players.

Agree with first sentence (because that's definition of the build), disagree with second. This patch leaves not so many unscaled sources of damage, especially compared to patches we had before.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There is no skill in blocking and heal stacking, vamp 3, major and minor protection, etc etc.

When I hear "XXX is no skill", it often means "XXX is hard counter to my gameplay and I don't know it's weaknesses".

This is what's called an impasse because we apparently don't play the same game. You can undermine a valid argument all day by insinuating that I'm a newbie, don't know how to counter builds, etc, because there's no other defense of my and others observations.

I understand people are enjoying this patch. More power to you but it's not balanced.

To everyone else, I know how to play these necro, dk and templar builds because I run them specifically to learn the counter. Just last night I perma blocked through a dozen players who I know are very skilled until I had leap. I them dragon leaped a sorc in the middle, killed them, and wiped the rest with VD. What was I wearing? VD back, plague front, blood spawn, malacath. Most of my points are in health.

I was told the death recap showed a 15k leap. I find this incredibly boring and unfulfilling. I run it to learn how to kill it. Then I jump on my NB or sorc that are spec'd for damage and test different set ups going to find enough damage or procs to match this burst.

It's impossible. Yes, even with Caluurions. Yes, even when 7k damage and 17k pen. There simply isn't enough to kill these builds even if the player is standing still and not trying to defend. I know this because I've tested it with friends.

The issue however isn't their survivability. It's that they can build that much into health and armor and STILL match my DD classes in damage. If someone disagrees that this is an issue, then we'll never see eye to eye.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's impossible. Yes, even with Caluurions. Yes, even when 7k damage and 17k pen. There simply isn't enough to kill these builds even if the player is standing still and not trying to defend. I know this because I've tested it with friends.

It's totally intended. If assassins would be able to kill tanks, we would be in "oops all NB" meta.

You use "Caluurions" as if its a proof of damage. It is burst set to kill squishys. You want to kill tough guys? Bring big DPS to the table. No tank can selfheal forever.

vms11934

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's impossible. Yes, even with Caluurions. Yes, even when 7k damage and 17k pen. There simply isn't enough to kill these builds even if the player is standing still and not trying to defend. I know this because I've tested it with friends.

It's totally intended. If assassins would be able to kill tanks, we would be in "oops all NB" meta.

You use "Caluurions" as if its a proof of damage. It is burst set to kill squishys. You want to kill tough guys? Bring big DPS to the table. No tank can selfheal forever.

As he said:

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The issue however isn't their survivability. It's that they can build that much into health and armor and STILL match my DD classes in damage. If someone disagrees that this is an issue, then we'll never see eye to eye.

divnyi

They are able to do damage because in "sustain, toughness, damage" triangle they chose 2.

You don't attack their sustain enough.

Recovery CPs are also adding to the issue here. I don't see that being any issue in noCP.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's impossible. Yes, even with Caluurions. Yes, even when 7k damage and 17k pen. There simply isn't enough to kill these builds even if the player is standing still and not trying to defend. I know this because I've tested it with friends.

It's totally intended. If assassins would be able to kill tanks, we would be in "oops all NB" meta.

You use "Caluurions" as if its a proof of damage. It is burst set to kill squishys. You want to kill tough guys? Bring big DPS to the table. No tank can selfheal forever.

[snip]

It's about DDs built for high damage doing the same or less damage than tanks.

I don't run Caluurions because I want to. I run it because over the last two patches they took away the ability to run straight damage sets and then took away the ability to run crit damage builds that could perform on the same level.

This is what we're stuck with. I tested an 8k build with 20k pen buffed. No Caluurions. You know what it did? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Wet noodle attacks.

[snip] If you want to be a tank, be a tank. But you shouldn't have to same (or higher in some cases) damage output as a sorc, NB or even a templar who refuses to play the cheese game. If you don't want me to 1v1 a DK, that's fine. That's a fair point. But they shouldn't be able to have no counter other than massively being outnumbered WHILE ALSO being able to stack massive bursts.

A tank brawler's advantage is supposed to be extending a fight until their opponent can no longer sustain. Their onslaught if moderate to medium high damage then becomes overwhelming and they win. That's not what we're seeing. As I mentioned above with my own DK, that isn't the case. We are now capable of NB level burst with tank level survivability.

[edited for baiting]

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's about DDs built for high damage doing the same or less damage than tanks.

[snip] You say that using less damage sets and less damage stats equals more damage. It doesn't.

If you can do huge damage on bruisers, you can use same gear setup plus damage set and do more.

[edited for baiting]

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's about DDs built for high damage doing the same or less damage than tanks.

[snip] You say that using less damage sets and less damage stats equals more damage. It doesn't.

If you can do huge damage on bruisers, you can use same gear setup plus damage set and do more.

[snip] Changes to certain classes' skills, changes to sets to make them hybrid, changes to battle spirit.

All of this significantly benefited 3 classes in both damage and survivability. This isn't the first time this has happened.

[snip]

All I want is from this game is a balance between damage output and tankiness. We had it for awhile.

[edited for baiting]

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's about DDs built for high damage doing the same or less damage than tanks.

[snip] You say that using less damage sets and less damage stats equals more damage. It doesn't.

If you can do huge damage on bruisers, you can use same gear setup plus damage set and do more.

[snip] Changes to certain classes' skills, changes to sets to make them hybrid, changes to battle spirit.

All of this significantly benefited 3 classes in both damage and survivability. This isn't the first time this has happened

Then if you take the same class and same gear, and swap one defensive set for one damage set, what's gonna happen? Is it still the same damage?

[edited to remove quote]

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip] If you want to be a tank, be a tank. But you shouldn't have to same (or higher in some cases) damage output as a sorc, NB or even a templar who refuses to play the cheese game. If you don't want me to 1v1 a DK, that's fine. That's a fair point. But they shouldn't be able to have no counter other than massively being outnumbered WHILE ALSO being able to stack massive bursts.

A tank brawler's advantage is supposed to be extending a fight until their opponent can no longer sustain. Their onslaught if moderate to medium high damage then becomes overwhelming and they win. That's not what we're seeing. As I mentioned above with my own DK, that isn't the case. We are now capable of NB level burst with tank level survivability.

Sure let's be honest and lay out some facts

1. DK Tanks are countered by MagPlars. Been like that for me at least as long as dueling was added, hasn't changed

2. DKs have consistently been ranked as the worst class in PvP. StamDKs have been regarded as gutter tier by many in all PvP formats, all group sizes, since Morrowind and the disastrous (for us) nerf to Constitution

3. Since then, there have been a million ideas about how to improve DK, but there was one thing we almost all agreed about: our main problem was sustain, hence our horrible state post-Morrowind pre-Greymoor

4. DK sustain was buffed. DK is now on par with everybody else, finally.

If NBs really aren't capable of out-bursting a "tank", tell us why and how this happened. We've already reviewed the mechanical reasons for why there's an inequivalent return on investing for mitigation and investing for damage, it has nothing to do with Heavy Armor and it has nothing to do with DK: it's because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage without optional sources of these stats receiving any increase.

DK has made out well this patch, but we've been waiting a long time for this. StamDK has never been the FotM in BGs in high MMR BGs on Xbox NA, not once since BGs have existed. The only reason we've had any purpose in Group Comp in Cyrodiil for a while now is one or two specific proc sets, that's it. Try and tell us what's gone wrong with NB and how it can be competitive against good players - we all know it still has excellent potato mashing potential.

[edited to remove quote]

jaws343

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip] If you want to be a tank, be a tank. But you shouldn't have to same (or higher in some cases) damage output as a sorc, NB or even a templar who refuses to play the cheese game. If you don't want me to 1v1 a DK, that's fine. That's a fair point. But they shouldn't be able to have no counter other than massively being outnumbered WHILE ALSO being able to stack massive bursts.

A tank brawler's advantage is supposed to be extending a fight until their opponent can no longer sustain. Their onslaught if moderate to medium high damage then becomes overwhelming and they win. That's not what we're seeing. As I mentioned above with my own DK, that isn't the case. We are now capable of NB level burst with tank level survivability.

Sure let's be honest and lay out some facts

1. DK Tanks are countered by MagPlars. Been like that for me at least as long as dueling was added, hasn't changed

2. DKs have consistently been ranked as the worst class in PvP. StamDKs have been regarded as gutter tier by many in all PvP formats, all group sizes, since Morrowind and the disastrous (for us) nerf to Constitution

3. Since then, there have been a million ideas about how to improve DK, but there was one thing we almost all agreed about: our main problem was sustain, hence our horrible state post-Morrowind pre-Greymoor

4. DK sustain was buffed. DK is now on par with everybody else, finally.

If NBs really aren't capable of out-bursting a "tank", tell us why and how this happened. We've already reviewed the mechanical reasons for why there's an inequivalent return on investing for mitigation and investing for damage, it has nothing to do with Heavy Armor and it has nothing to do with DK: it's because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage without optional sources of these stats receiving any increase.

DK has made out well this patch, but we've been waiting a long time for this. StamDK has never been the FotM in BGs in high MMR BGs on Xbox NA, not once since BGs have existed. The only reason we've had any purpose in Group Comp in Cyrodiil for a while now is one or two specific proc sets, that's it. Try and tell us what's gone wrong with NB and how it can be competitive against good players - we all know it still has excellent potato mashing potential.

I'm honestly not sure I am playing the same game as everyone else talking about tanky players. I am straight wrecking people on my magblade, running spinners and caluurians. And barely dying. You just have to build for damage and survival properly. My magblade is sitting at 15K penetration, and that goes up even further with a balorgh proc.

What you see more often from players who just won't die is a better understanding of positioning and resource management. Knowing when to push and when to disengage, what to block and what to eat.

[edited to remove quote]

Urzigurumash

jaws343 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip] If you want to be a tank, be a tank. But you shouldn't have to same (or higher in some cases) damage output as a sorc, NB or even a templar who refuses to play the cheese game. If you don't want me to 1v1 a DK, that's fine. That's a fair point. But they shouldn't be able to have no counter other than massively being outnumbered WHILE ALSO being able to stack massive bursts.

A tank brawler's advantage is supposed to be extending a fight until their opponent can no longer sustain. Their onslaught if moderate to medium high damage then becomes overwhelming and they win. That's not what we're seeing. As I mentioned above with my own DK, that isn't the case. We are now capable of NB level burst with tank level survivability.

Sure let's be honest and lay out some facts

1. DK Tanks are countered by MagPlars. Been like that for me at least as long as dueling was added, hasn't changed

2. DKs have consistently been ranked as the worst class in PvP. StamDKs have been regarded as gutter tier by many in all PvP formats, all group sizes, since Morrowind and the disastrous (for us) nerf to Constitution

3. Since then, there have been a million ideas about how to improve DK, but there was one thing we almost all agreed about: our main problem was sustain, hence our horrible state post-Morrowind pre-Greymoor

4. DK sustain was buffed. DK is now on par with everybody else, finally.

If NBs really aren't capable of out-bursting a "tank", tell us why and how this happened. We've already reviewed the mechanical reasons for why there's an inequivalent return on investing for mitigation and investing for damage, it has nothing to do with Heavy Armor and it has nothing to do with DK: it's because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage without optional sources of these stats receiving any increase.

DK has made out well this patch, but we've been waiting a long time for this. StamDK has never been the FotM in BGs in high MMR BGs on Xbox NA, not once since BGs have existed. The only reason we've had any purpose in Group Comp in Cyrodiil for a while now is one or two specific proc sets, that's it. Try and tell us what's gone wrong with NB and how it can be competitive against good players - we all know it still has excellent potato mashing potential.

I'm honestly not sure I am playing the same game as everyone else talking about tanky players. I am straight wrecking people on my magblade, running spinners and caluurians. And barely dying. You just have to build for damage and survival properly. My magblade is sitting at 15K penetration, and that goes up even further with a balorgh proc.

What you see more often from players who just won't die is a better understanding of positioning and resource management. Knowing when to push and when to disengage, what to block and what to eat.

I agree completely. The number one thing you can do to improve your K-D ratio is exercise some humility and know when to disengage. For years I've scoffed at disengagement as a humiliating act for an Orc, but, it works.

Of course I agree with the general premise that nobody should have more burst than NB, not single target anyhow. StamNBs shouldn't have to go as a BrawlerBlade to be competitive just as StamDKs shouldn't have to slot a bow to be competitive, and prior to Greymoor, things were rather going that way for StamDK. I can definitely see why StamNBs have an issue with this patch if they feel compelled to go as a Brawler, but that doesn't mean DKs - and the playstyle to which we are best suited - need outright nerfs to fix StamNB's problems.

Many people have consistently ranked StamNB as the number one solo overworld class for almost every single patch, we StamDKs are more accustomed to being ridiculed.

[edited to remove quote]

MEBengalsFan2001

TheEndBringer wrote: »

buzzclops wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.

[edited for rude comment]

Exactly this.

Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.

I have a hard time believing this. People flock to the same builds across all platforms. XB and PC are both being dominated by 3 classes, all spec'd to tank while also packing devastating burst damage.

Some of these builds literally show no damage taken when hit by multiple combos from pure damage builds.

I would be very surprised if it isn't the same on PS.

This is what is also happening on PS4. You have players who simply can't be damaged because they are well over the cap resistance than out of nowhere they pop a potion and they are hitting as hard as other DPS.

MEBengalsFan2001

TheEndBringer wrote: »

vms11934 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

buzzclops wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.

[edited for rude comment]

Exactly this.

Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.

I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.

People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.

I'm on PS4 NA too and the tanky crap seems rampant to me. I may not be tops in dps, but I'm no slouch. Before the update, I was running MA and Carluurions and was able to do 70-100k in 1.1 seconds to a 6 mil dummy. One time, a necro just stood there while I was trying to take a resource (all guards were dead already). He didn't attack me because it seems like he knew I couldn't kill him. I would unload on him and he would maybe get to half life and heal to full right away. Total futility.

After the update, while running an experimental build that doesn't do nearly as much dps (only around 5k weapon damage and around 6k pen, 45% crit chance, but with Scavenging proc), I came across an afk S&B player during a keep siege. He didn't do anything. No heals, no blocking. Nothing. Which also means I didn't have to divert time to healing myself, dodging, running, etc. Took me about 15 seconds to kill him. Again, I know it wasn't a top dps build, but it's not complete [snip] either. What is complete [snip] is that someone can take that long to kill while afk. I would have absolutely no chance whatsoever 1v1 against them.

This game is broken.

Yeah like I said above I don't believe PS players don't run meta like everyone else, and right now meta is DK, Necro and templar tanks that are eating everything thrown at them while also dealing crazy damage.

I've tried the DK build just to see so I know how to attack them on my NB. It's dumb easy to 1vX entire groups then turn around and dragon leap them into oblivion.

This isn't a DK problem though. This is an issue with the idea that someone can build 33k+ health and 33k+armor with 2 defensive sets while still outputting 6k+ damage.

It's not two defensive sets. It is usually one defensive set and one offensive set. Pariah is the defensive set of choice; it has high resistance and if you wear it on your body you get extra health. Also, if you use 5 pieces of medium you can use the medium armor skill which almost makes said character hard to kill as well.

Meta right now from what I see is BashCro, DC Necro builds with either Plaguebreak or Vicious Death, NB Bombers, Templar with Plaguebreak and Pariah, etc...

#1 Defensive set is probably Pariah as for a 2nd good options, phh... I don't know of any.

On one hand we have options on how to build our character.

If you go full light you get extra pen and crit that when combined can easily take down a full heavy or medium build but you are squishy and will take damage easily.

If you go full medium you gain a bit more resistance (best armor ability IMO) and increase in damage. Overall a full medium build IMO is the best way to go for the added damage as you can easily get pen from your weapon and weapon trait.

Than there is the heavy build where you set yourself up to be killed rather quickly by someone rocking a magika based build.

Than you have healer tanks in mostly heavy gear with high health and decent amount of magika and spell damage that don't do a lot of damage but can take hits and heal through most hits. They may even debuff you or buff the group up. Thesee players are the most annoying of them all.

There is a way to resolve this and it is simply by adjusting battle spirit by the role we have selected within the group menu option. That selection would adjust stats such as tanks and healers have their spell/weapon damage reduced by 50%. DPS and heals have their healing in reduced by 50%. DPS and Tanks have their healing out reduced by 50%.

There are ways to fix it without killing PVP.

[edited to remove quote]

jaws343

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

vms11934 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

buzzclops wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.

[edited for rude comment]

Exactly this.

Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.

I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.

People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.

I'm on PS4 NA too and the tanky crap seems rampant to me. I may not be tops in dps, but I'm no slouch. Before the update, I was running MA and Carluurions and was able to do 70-100k in 1.1 seconds to a 6 mil dummy. One time, a necro just stood there while I was trying to take a resource (all guards were dead already). He didn't attack me because it seems like he knew I couldn't kill him. I would unload on him and he would maybe get to half life and heal to full right away. Total futility.

After the update, while running an experimental build that doesn't do nearly as much dps (only around 5k weapon damage and around 6k pen, 45% crit chance, but with Scavenging proc), I came across an afk S&B player during a keep siege. He didn't do anything. No heals, no blocking. Nothing. Which also means I didn't have to divert time to healing myself, dodging, running, etc. Took me about 15 seconds to kill him. Again, I know it wasn't a top dps build, but it's not complete [snip] either. What is complete [snip] is that someone can take that long to kill while afk. I would have absolutely no chance whatsoever 1v1 against them.

This game is broken.

Yeah like I said above I don't believe PS players don't run meta like everyone else, and right now meta is DK, Necro and templar tanks that are eating everything thrown at them while also dealing crazy damage.

I've tried the DK build just to see so I know how to attack them on my NB. It's dumb easy to 1vX entire groups then turn around and dragon leap them into oblivion.

This isn't a DK problem though. This is an issue with the idea that someone can build 33k+ health and 33k+armor with 2 defensive sets while still outputting 6k+ damage.

It's not two defensive sets. It is usually one defensive set and one offensive set. Pariah is the defensive set of choice; it has high resistance and if you wear it on your body you get extra health. Also, if you use 5 pieces of medium you can use the medium armor skill which almost makes said character hard to kill as well.

Meta right now from what I see is BashCro, DC Necro builds with either Plaguebreak or Vicious Death, NB Bombers, Templar with Plaguebreak and Pariah, etc...

#1 Defensive set is probably Pariah as for a 2nd good options, phh... I don't know of any.

On one hand we have options on how to build our character.

If you go full light you get extra pen and crit that when combined can easily take down a full heavy or medium build but you are squishy and will take damage easily.

If you go full medium you gain a bit more resistance (best armor ability IMO) and increase in damage. Overall a full medium build IMO is the best way to go for the added damage as you can easily get pen from your weapon and weapon trait.

Than there is the heavy build where you set yourself up to be killed rather quickly by someone rocking a magika based build.

Than you have healer tanks in mostly heavy gear with high health and decent amount of magika and spell damage that don't do a lot of damage but can take hits and heal through most hits. They may even debuff you or buff the group up. Thesee players are the most annoying of them all.

There is a way to resolve this and it is simply by adjusting battle spirit by the role we have selected within the group menu option. That selection would adjust stats such as tanks and healers have their spell/weapon damage reduced by 50%. DPS and heals have their healing in reduced by 50%. DPS and Tanks have their healing out reduced by 50%.

There are ways to fix it without killing PVP.

Nerfing healing/damage/mitigation output by role type selected would absolutely kill PVP. That role type selection is for 1 purpose only, PVE content. There are no real roles in PVP content. And preventing players from adequately defending/healing themselves in solo play would be a death knell to PVP. And it would do nothing to groups, who would just build tanky and still run down players who can no longer heal or defend themselves, even with their diminished damage output.

[edited to remove quote]

TheS1X

Fast and intense PvP is better and more fun than trying to kill 10v 1 turtle 1h.
Less healing is better.

auz

I don't understand how people can complain about tankiness with damage is as high as it is. Yes people are tanky. They have to be to survive things like 15k leaps, 30k+ burst combos, procs critting for stupid amounts and HA lightning staves with 9k ticks.

I think it is great that people can build 30k+ health, 32k resists, 3k recovery, 6k+ weapon damage (more on some classes) and 14k pen. Theory crafting and testing new builds is one of the best parts of the game. Try it out, and see what you can come up with.

If you nerf resists, you have to nerf damage or every encounter becomes who can get their combo off first or best or who makes a mistake. If you nerf both we are back where we are.

The real problem, I think is healing. Zos nerfed healing, then gave everyone 1k extra wd/sd. The last few nights I have been in bgs with healers putting out 1.5mil+ heals which makes everyone tanky. I was, and others, getting 1.2mil+ damage for only a handful of kills. I don't mind games like that. Makes it a good challenge and forces people to work together, but, it is probably a bit much. With half the amount of heals, the games would have been very different.

The solution, as I see it, is either reduce the potency of heals or reduce damage. If you reduce damage people have to build more into damage and hence have less defence. You still end up with tanky individuals, but they probably can't kill you. So I think a very slight reduction of healing is the way to go. It can be done via battle spirit, and in a couple months if healing is still too strong, knock it down a little more.

auz

Or just leave it as it is. I am enjoying pvp this patch.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip] If you want to be a tank, be a tank. But you shouldn't have to same (or higher in some cases) damage output as a sorc, NB or even a templar who refuses to play the cheese game. If you don't want me to 1v1 a DK, that's fine. That's a fair point. But they shouldn't be able to have no counter other than massively being outnumbered WHILE ALSO being able to stack massive bursts.

A tank brawler's advantage is supposed to be extending a fight until their opponent can no longer sustain. Their onslaught if moderate to medium high damage then becomes overwhelming and they win. That's not what we're seeing. As I mentioned above with my own DK, that isn't the case. We are now capable of NB level burst with tank level survivability.

Sure let's be honest and lay out some facts

1. DK Tanks are countered by MagPlars. Been like that for me at least as long as dueling was added, hasn't changed

2. DKs have consistently been ranked as the worst class in PvP. StamDKs have been regarded as gutter tier by many in all PvP formats, all group sizes, since Morrowind and the disastrous (for us) nerf to Constitution

3. Since then, there have been a million ideas about how to improve DK, but there was one thing we almost all agreed about: our main problem was sustain, hence our horrible state post-Morrowind pre-Greymoor

4. DK sustain was buffed. DK is now on par with everybody else, finally.

If NBs really aren't capable of out-bursting a "tank", tell us why and how this happened. We've already reviewed the mechanical reasons for why there's an inequivalent return on investing for mitigation and investing for damage, it has nothing to do with Heavy Armor and it has nothing to do with DK: it's because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage without optional sources of these stats receiving any increase.

DK has made out well this patch, but we've been waiting a long time for this. StamDK has never been the FotM in BGs in high MMR BGs on Xbox NA, not once since BGs have existed. The only reason we've had any purpose in Group Comp in Cyrodiil for a while now is one or two specific proc sets, that's it. Try and tell us what's gone wrong with NB and how it can be competitive against good players - we all know it still has excellent potato mashing potential.

This isn't about nightblades. It only keeps getting brought up because it's known that I play NBs. I also play DK, warden, templar, necro and sorc. I play all of them regularly. I understand the mechanics of each build and how they're used in Cyrodiil.

But if you really want to go down this rabbit hole...

I have been dueling my friend's DK on my NB. He's currently #3 on the leaderboard. I'm #11 as of this afternoon.

I've tried several set ups on him. I barely can get him to 50% if not actively defending. I can't get him down 10% if he's defending.

I've tested max damage and pen. I've tested procs. I've spend countless gold only to come up with a singular answer. I can't cut through his mitigation, and even if I do, he's able to sustain through it all.

My soul harvest didn't even do 1k damage fully buffed with 7k damage and 18k pen.

What's wrong?

I can only speculate that if my crit % was over 50% like it used to be or MA wasn't nerfed that I'd be able to do more damage before getting nuked with a 20k leap.

I think if vamp 3 was nerfed it would help. The resource cost isn't hard to overcome. The fire damage increase is whatever when you have so much armor and healing. I run vamp 3 on ever character. I'd happily give it up to cut down ttk.

There are my thoughts on NB. I can give similar notes on sorcs. This isn't about one class. This is about the siding scale of damage to tank is tipped far closer to the latter than I can remember.

I'm glad people are enjoying their DKs but pvp meta is always toxic. Remember 4 months ago when every other person was a magblade bomber? That wasn't very enjoyable either for most people.

No one is saying take away DKs viability. We're just saying the game is currently too weighted toward mitigation and healing. Balance the damage to tankiness scale. That's it.

[edited to remove quote]