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The tank meta gets worse and worse, Hard caps desperately needed in PvP
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motemeno✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Hard caps are poor game design and indicative of worsening gameplay.
The answer lies in adequately addressing how procs react with specific stats.
Hard caps will not fix what you are looking to fix and worsen the gameplay experience for the little PvP population left in this game.
I am honestly confused at how people want classes to be even more killable with burst the way it is right now.
I am tempted to say it might be a user issue but I want to hear people out.
You're right, in the forum you're talking only with casual cyrodil players, running in a lfg group. The damage has never been so high and they want tankyness to be even lower.
Imagine all the players that beg for armor and hp cap getting oneshotted by a 10k db, shalk and an executioner. They should be very happy with their game, and the fact that they won't have a counterplay for the oneshoots. It seems that in the forum everyone want this to become a 100/0 game with no counterplay
3 -
xxslam48xxb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Hard caps are poor game design and indicative of worsening gameplay.
The answer lies in adequately addressing how procs react with specific stats.
Hard caps will not fix what you are looking to fix and worsen the gameplay experience for the little PvP population left in this game.
I am honestly confused at how people want classes to be even more killable with burst the way it is right now.
I am tempted to say it might be a user issue but I want to hear people out.
You're right, in the forum you're talking only with casual cyrodil players, running in a lfg group. The damage has never been so high and they want tankyness to be even lower.
Imagine all the players that beg for armor and hp cap getting oneshotted by a 10k db, shalk and an executioner. They should be very happy with their game, and the fact that they won't have a counterplay for the oneshoots. It seems that in the forum everyone want this to become a 100/0 game with no counterplay
However high you think the burst is, the survivability is still higher then that right now. Not even remotely a casual player either. Its not even the tankiness that is wrong here, its the fact that they can also deal those massive bursts on top of the survivability. If people want to be that turtle mode then they shouldn't be slapping down everyone they see in 3 gcds.I wrote a poem that I titled, "The ganker's delight."
As you lay upon the ground, cry not little pawn.
The pain will pass as quickly as my blade did take you,
but my delight will last and you will respawn.
My heart simply cannot contain my joy, when I ply my trade.
The fault lies with you, your skill was lacking.
Now your salt is mine forever, can't you hear the laughing?
Once you were so proud and now you are reduced to this.
A miserable, loud deuced fool.
With every tear you drip, with every excuse you let slip.
All of your insecurities and worries bring a smile to my lip.
From your despair I have ripped endless glories,
but our affair is over now. Be afraid for I will return for more.
I have received many titles, to my allies I am The sniper Emperor and Grand champion hero of the Pact. However these titles mean little to me, it is the ones given to me by my victims that I prefer. To them I am "Xv1er", "trash", "no balls", "zerger", "noob", "cringe", "no skill", "camper", "100% new", "the reason this game is dying", "pathetic", "a sack of piece of [snip]", "mediocre", "absolute inbred", "beyond a virgin", "ganky dork", "fat smelly 40yr old virgin", "little girl", "daddy", "exploiting loser", and every [snipped] word known to man.2 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭If tankiness needs any nerfes, I'd want to see more movement speed nerfs. Big part of 1vX survivability is being able to LoS break, and that requires huge movement speed.
Removing that stupid magic vulnerability from heavy armor and replace it by multiplicative -2% movement speed per piece sounds fair.
Like with 5 pieces, if you had 100% speed, that's 90%, if you had 150% speed, that's 135%. Gonna hit higher numbers harder, and that's intentional.2 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.
Battle spirit should have hard caps in place by role. Below are two examples. I'm not saying these are perfect but it is a way to ensure players can focus on doing their role. What I don't like seeing is a damage dealer running around with 40K HP, 35k resistance, and around 6-8K damage. Having a hard cap of HP and resistance would make that DPS less of an issue for others.
Healers & Tanks: Spell & Weapon damage capped to 3K.
Healers and Damage Dealers: Spell & physical resistance capped to 25K
But I believe diminishing returns based on role is better as a player could get their stats higher than say what the hard cap is, but it just takes more to achieve that end and it would be at the cost of other stats.
So instead of hard caps we get soft caps. Than after you hit the soft cap those stats become harder to raise up based on your role. Using the examples of above, if I am a healer now and I have 6K spell damage, anything above 3K with a hard cap would be loss stats. Using a soft cap that applies a 50% reduction of stat after I hit the soft would make my 6K spell damage now 4.5K. Still better than 3K but not as strong as 6K.
If we take this logic and apply it to resistance, health, etc... it would greatly impact builds. Players running around with say 40K health would now have 35K and if said player had 35K resistance it would be 30K if the soft cap was 25K.
My concern with soft caps is calculating values, etc... hard caps are easier to implement and doing it by role is fair and can be clearly keyed into what battle spirit does for each role. Yeah it would stink at first but over time players would adjust.
0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.
Battle spirit should have hard caps in place by role. Below are two examples. I'm not saying these are perfect but it is a way to ensure players can focus on doing their role. What I don't like seeing is a damage dealer running around with 40K HP, 35k resistance, and around 6-8K damage. Having a hard cap of HP and resistance would make that DPS less of an issue for others.
Healers & Tanks: Spell & Weapon damage capped to 3K.
Healers and Damage Dealers: Spell & physical resistance capped to 25K
But I believe diminishing returns based on role is better as a player could get their stats higher than say what the hard cap is, but it just takes more to achieve that end and it would be at the cost of other stats.
So instead of hard caps we get soft caps. Than after you hit the soft cap those stats become harder to raise up based on your role. Using the examples of above, if I am a healer now and I have 6K spell damage, anything above 3K with a hard cap would be loss stats. Using a soft cap that applies a 50% reduction of stat after I hit the soft would make my 6K spell damage now 4.5K. Still better than 3K but not as strong as 6K.
If we take this logic and apply it to resistance, health, etc... it would greatly impact builds. Players running around with say 40K health would now have 35K and if said player had 35K resistance it would be 30K if the soft cap was 25K.
My concern with soft caps is calculating values, etc... hard caps are easier to implement and doing it by role is fair and can be clearly keyed into what battle spirit does for each role. Yeah it would stink at first but over time players would adjust.
There are no set roles in pvp. You build a character to do what you want. Your suggestions, while I think you're on the right path, wouldn't actually stop a character from being tanky AND dropping damage.
Not to mention the fact that there's nothing wrong with running a max health, max armor build. Actual tanks are rather useful in pvp. The problem is people can build for that and still wipe the opposition.
Every build should have drawbacks. A pure DD build does immense damage with little survivability. A tank can survive onslaughts but can't kill 1vx. Then there are builds somewhere in between. That's how it should work. Right now you can be a tank AND do big damage, which leads to high ttk and nullifies actual DD builds.I drink and I stream things.0 -
TheS1X✭✭✭Not sure if it is tank meta or heal meta, this game is ***.
Sorc made 2.5 mil damage with 450k healing, second place was Warden with 2 mil damage with 350k healing and then there was templar who just spammed jabs and he was on third place with 1.9 mil damage with 400k healing and in their team was one NB with 1.6 mil damage and that was it. - This team here was immortal and their orange line was dominating the whole game. I'm mind blown about this game's design! Why the hell are some classes so OP, doing sooo much damage and same time burst healing so much?
So, is it tanking or healing?
And ofc some people come and say that everything is fine, for them, yes! It is fine!
" Self burst healing turtle that heals 40k hp full under the second while not losing any sustain + leaping 20k "
" Or the guy who flies around with indestructible shield and bombs like a thor, killing with one hit and healing like maniac "
Sorry, but this game is broken as hell!!!1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was playing last night on Xbox NA, and there was a group of very tanky players. Their health bars were 37k and up. How can a player having 37K health can hit you with 13k+ damage grave rober in pvp? This particular player had Dark Convergence and a vicious death. His health was +37k and was hitting like a truck with DK, Grave Rover, Ult and Vicious Death combo. My health was +29k with 21K resistances, and I was getting deleted with that combo half the time. How can this be? I assume that to get to 37k health one most invest attribute points in health. How can they still hit this hard? There is only one conclusion - necros are broken!
Only 21k resistances? There's the problem as most build to 20k penetration.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not sure if it is tank meta or heal meta, this game is ***.
Sorc made 2.5 mil damage with 450k healing, second place was Warden with 2 mil damage with 350k healing and then there was templar who just spammed jabs and he was on third place with 1.9 mil damage with 400k healing and in their team was one NB with 1.6 mil damage and that was it. - This team here was immortal and their orange line was dominating the whole game. I'm mind blown about this game's design! Why the hell are some classes so OP, doing sooo much damage and same time burst healing so much?
So, is it tanking or healing?
And ofc some people come and say that everything is fine, for them, yes! It is fine!
" Self burst healing turtle that heals 40k hp full under the second while not losing any sustain + leaping 20k "
" Or the guy who flies around with indestructible shield and bombs like a thor, killing with one hit and healing like maniac "
Sorry, but this game is broken as hell!!!
There is often a misconception that dealing 1M+ damage has anything to do with a classes damage output.
Sometimes, yes it does, but other times it has a lot more to do with the players inability to kill anything or an opposing team's ability to heal.
For example, I can go 20-0 kills on my sorc and only put out 300K damage or so. But if my burst is controlled and I select the right targets, and my opponents aren't healing a ton, a lot of damage isn't all that necessary.
But, on the same build, I can push out 1.4m damage and 200K healing and have like 3 total kills because the other team is out healing the burst and anything else thrown at them. So great, I did 1.4m damage but it was wholly ineffective.
You also have AOE builds that output a ton of damage on paper but minimal damage to targets individually. They may hit 2M damage, but really, how much damage are the actually doing per target, probably not a whole lot. I remember like a year ago when AOE magdens were doing insane damage totals but were not entirely effective. They would hit all opposing players with multiple AOEs and you'd regularly see 2M plus damage and like 3 or 4 kills at best. Tons of assists.
So, while it may look impressive that someone has 1M+ damage, it really only matters if they also have the kills (or their team has the kills) to support that damage. I was in a match yesterday where I did 1.1m damage, and 8 out of 12 players in the match all had 1m+ damage and the total kills were like 25 tops across all 12 players. The timer ran out before a team even hit 400 points. Counter to that, I had a match with my nightblade where I was at like 750K damage with 1 death and 18 kills. My team easily won that one, but the other players were not healing well enough for damage totals to cross 1m.1 -
TheS1X✭✭✭So yeah, thnx for sharing your opinion. I think damage is not that much of an issue than healing.
This game is filled with healing that makes PVP very unbalanced and healing actually makes this game overland content and even decent dungeons very easy.
Other games are separating tanks, healers and DDs and that kind of works, atm it seems like ESO wants to let players build some tank,DD,healer mix & with some classes and sets combined it is very much possible and with some setups even godlike gamebreaking.
Anyways, I guess I just don't like this game anymore, I see my self whining a lot lately but at same time this game was like that from a start, I always saw healing in this game too over done.
I liked how players needed each other in other mmos, now 1 player just runs dungeons, tanks, heals him self and killing everything with few hits and can solo even bosses.
It is mmo that should be social game but it feels more like play alone with other people.
Sorry for a offtopic tho.0 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.
Battle spirit should have hard caps in place by role. Below are two examples. I'm not saying these are perfect but it is a way to ensure players can focus on doing their role. What I don't like seeing is a damage dealer running around with 40K HP, 35k resistance, and around 6-8K damage. Having a hard cap of HP and resistance would make that DPS less of an issue for others.
Healers & Tanks: Spell & Weapon damage capped to 3K.
Healers and Damage Dealers: Spell & physical resistance capped to 25K
But I believe diminishing returns based on role is better as a player could get their stats higher than say what the hard cap is, but it just takes more to achieve that end and it would be at the cost of other stats.
So instead of hard caps we get soft caps. Than after you hit the soft cap those stats become harder to raise up based on your role. Using the examples of above, if I am a healer now and I have 6K spell damage, anything above 3K with a hard cap would be loss stats. Using a soft cap that applies a 50% reduction of stat after I hit the soft would make my 6K spell damage now 4.5K. Still better than 3K but not as strong as 6K.
If we take this logic and apply it to resistance, health, etc... it would greatly impact builds. Players running around with say 40K health would now have 35K and if said player had 35K resistance it would be 30K if the soft cap was 25K.
My concern with soft caps is calculating values, etc... hard caps are easier to implement and doing it by role is fair and can be clearly keyed into what battle spirit does for each role. Yeah it would stink at first but over time players would adjust.
There are no set roles in pvp. You build a character to do what you want. Your suggestions, while I think you're on the right path, wouldn't actually stop a character from being tanky AND dropping damage.
Not to mention the fact that there's nothing wrong with running a max health, max armor build. Actual tanks are rather useful in pvp. The problem is people can build for that and still wipe the opposition.
Every build should have drawbacks. A pure DD build does immense damage with little survivability. A tank can survive onslaughts but can't kill 1vx. Then there are builds somewhere in between. That's how it should work. Right now you can be a tank AND do big damage, which leads to high ttk and nullifies actual DD builds.
My friend built a healer and he has 35k magika, 40k health and 38k resistance and 5k+ spell damage.
Why?0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.
Battle spirit should have hard caps in place by role. Below are two examples. I'm not saying these are perfect but it is a way to ensure players can focus on doing their role. What I don't like seeing is a damage dealer running around with 40K HP, 35k resistance, and around 6-8K damage. Having a hard cap of HP and resistance would make that DPS less of an issue for others.
Healers & Tanks: Spell & Weapon damage capped to 3K.
Healers and Damage Dealers: Spell & physical resistance capped to 25K
But I believe diminishing returns based on role is better as a player could get their stats higher than say what the hard cap is, but it just takes more to achieve that end and it would be at the cost of other stats.
So instead of hard caps we get soft caps. Than after you hit the soft cap those stats become harder to raise up based on your role. Using the examples of above, if I am a healer now and I have 6K spell damage, anything above 3K with a hard cap would be loss stats. Using a soft cap that applies a 50% reduction of stat after I hit the soft would make my 6K spell damage now 4.5K. Still better than 3K but not as strong as 6K.
If we take this logic and apply it to resistance, health, etc... it would greatly impact builds. Players running around with say 40K health would now have 35K and if said player had 35K resistance it would be 30K if the soft cap was 25K.
My concern with soft caps is calculating values, etc... hard caps are easier to implement and doing it by role is fair and can be clearly keyed into what battle spirit does for each role. Yeah it would stink at first but over time players would adjust.
There are no set roles in pvp. You build a character to do what you want. Your suggestions, while I think you're on the right path, wouldn't actually stop a character from being tanky AND dropping damage.
Not to mention the fact that there's nothing wrong with running a max health, max armor build. Actual tanks are rather useful in pvp. The problem is people can build for that and still wipe the opposition.
Every build should have drawbacks. A pure DD build does immense damage with little survivability. A tank can survive onslaughts but can't kill 1vx. Then there are builds somewhere in between. That's how it should work. Right now you can be a tank AND do big damage, which leads to high ttk and nullifies actual DD builds.
My friend built a healer and he has 35k magika, 40k health and 38k resistance and 5k+ spell damage.
Why?
Because they tied healing to spell/weapon damage for some reason.I drink and I stream things.0 -
baselesschart✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »Because they tied healing to spell/weapon damage for some reason.
People that don't like that have suggested a dedicated healing stat that would determine your healing output, maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, who knows.A fairly mediocre nightblade that occasionally kills people0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭baselesschart wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »Because they tied healing to spell/weapon damage for some reason.
People that don't like that have suggested a dedicated healing stat that would determine your healing output, maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, who knows.
I don't know of a better way off the top of my head but just an example, my NB with 7k weapon damage has a 25k tool tip of vigor.I drink and I stream things.0 -
auz✭✭✭✭There are classes and players putting out 20 to 30k worth of damage in a single combo against players with decent resists on proper pvp set ups. Why wouldn't people add defence capabilities to their set ups? If I can have 30k+ health and 33k resists with 6k+ weapon damage and 3k regen am I the problem or is the problem yours for not building or theory crafting right?
I agree healing is stupid strong right now and could use tweaking. But if you want to nerf the tanky damage dealer you also need to nerf damage or pvp will be all 1one shot combos.1 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.
Battle spirit should have hard caps in place by role. Below are two examples. I'm not saying these are perfect but it is a way to ensure players can focus on doing their role. What I don't like seeing is a damage dealer running around with 40K HP, 35k resistance, and around 6-8K damage. Having a hard cap of HP and resistance would make that DPS less of an issue for others.
Healers & Tanks: Spell & Weapon damage capped to 3K.
Healers and Damage Dealers: Spell & physical resistance capped to 25K
But I believe diminishing returns based on role is better as a player could get their stats higher than say what the hard cap is, but it just takes more to achieve that end and it would be at the cost of other stats.
So instead of hard caps we get soft caps. Than after you hit the soft cap those stats become harder to raise up based on your role. Using the examples of above, if I am a healer now and I have 6K spell damage, anything above 3K with a hard cap would be loss stats. Using a soft cap that applies a 50% reduction of stat after I hit the soft would make my 6K spell damage now 4.5K. Still better than 3K but not as strong as 6K.
If we take this logic and apply it to resistance, health, etc... it would greatly impact builds. Players running around with say 40K health would now have 35K and if said player had 35K resistance it would be 30K if the soft cap was 25K.
My concern with soft caps is calculating values, etc... hard caps are easier to implement and doing it by role is fair and can be clearly keyed into what battle spirit does for each role. Yeah it would stink at first but over time players would adjust.
There are no set roles in pvp. You build a character to do what you want. Your suggestions, while I think you're on the right path, wouldn't actually stop a character from being tanky AND dropping damage.
Not to mention the fact that there's nothing wrong with running a max health, max armor build. Actual tanks are rather useful in pvp. The problem is people can build for that and still wipe the opposition.
Every build should have drawbacks. A pure DD build does immense damage with little survivability. A tank can survive onslaughts but can't kill 1vx. Then there are builds somewhere in between. That's how it should work. Right now you can be a tank AND do big damage, which leads to high ttk and nullifies actual DD builds.
My friend built a healer and he has 35k magika, 40k health and 38k resistance and 5k+ spell damage.
Why?
I would love to see that build! This is what I have - 29k health, 5k+ spell damage, 31k magicka, 12k+ pen. Deadly, wretched, malacath, vateshran lighting staff.
How can you get 40k health, 38k resistance with 5k+ spell damage?0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭baselesschart wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »Because they tied healing to spell/weapon damage for some reason.
People that don't like that have suggested a dedicated healing stat that would determine your healing output, maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, who knows.
Also seen people saying to tie healing to your resource pools alone.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
aslancik12✭✭you guys forgot something.THERE IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN A VET PLAYER AND NORMAL PLAYER.we are playin this game since 2015-16 so we know some tricks.thats not only about hp maxed build.ofc it helps us.but when we fight against experienced players we died quick if we did something wrong.ppl not understand this.even if we use light armor and 23k resist or 30k hp still we can kite long time and normal players only do small amount of damage.This is playstyle and ppl playing this game bcs of it.This is like ''NB hitting more so pls nerf them.''i know so many nb that 1 shot us and they are not even using proc or something.this is PURE SKILL.if you dont know how to bash and heavy between your skills you cant hit that much.Thats why we called them vet players.And trust me ı saw many 45-50k hp players and we killed them in 10 seconds.THAT is what you guys need to learn.When you hit when you not. SOrry guys but this is the truth.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭aslancik12 wrote: »you guys forgot something.THERE IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN A VET PLAYER AND NORMAL PLAYER.we are playin this game since 2015-16 so we know some tricks.thats not only about hp maxed build.ofc it helps us.but when we fight against experienced players we died quick if we did something wrong.ppl not understand this.even if we use light armor and 23k resist or 30k hp still we can kite long time and normal players only do small amount of damage.This is playstyle and ppl playing this game bcs of it.This is like ''NB hitting more so pls nerf them.''i know so many nb that 1 shot us and they are not even using proc or something.this is PURE SKILL.if you dont know how to bash and heavy between your skills you cant hit that much.Thats why we called them vet players.And trust me ı saw many 45-50k hp players and we killed them in 10 seconds.THAT is what you guys need to learn.When you hit when you not. SOrry guys but this is the truth.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic. The advantage of experience is knowing how to (legally) exploit the game's loopholes to maximize performance. Light attack weaving, for example, is a legal exploit.
The issue of the topic has nothing to do with experience. It's that the current patch has added a tank DD easy mode again and the majority of players are now stacking on the 3 classes that benefit the most in this cycle, namely DK, necro and templar. Last time we went through this it was necros and wardens.
I'm sorry but there's no skill in running 2 defense proc sets and 1 DD proc sets and blocking till ultimate. You get insane survivable while hitting 6k s/w damage.I drink and I stream things.1 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.
Battle spirit should have hard caps in place by role. Below are two examples. I'm not saying these are perfect but it is a way to ensure players can focus on doing their role. What I don't like seeing is a damage dealer running around with 40K HP, 35k resistance, and around 6-8K damage. Having a hard cap of HP and resistance would make that DPS less of an issue for others.
Healers & Tanks: Spell & Weapon damage capped to 3K.
Healers and Damage Dealers: Spell & physical resistance capped to 25K
But I believe diminishing returns based on role is better as a player could get their stats higher than say what the hard cap is, but it just takes more to achieve that end and it would be at the cost of other stats.
So instead of hard caps we get soft caps. Than after you hit the soft cap those stats become harder to raise up based on your role. Using the examples of above, if I am a healer now and I have 6K spell damage, anything above 3K with a hard cap would be loss stats. Using a soft cap that applies a 50% reduction of stat after I hit the soft would make my 6K spell damage now 4.5K. Still better than 3K but not as strong as 6K.
If we take this logic and apply it to resistance, health, etc... it would greatly impact builds. Players running around with say 40K health would now have 35K and if said player had 35K resistance it would be 30K if the soft cap was 25K.
My concern with soft caps is calculating values, etc... hard caps are easier to implement and doing it by role is fair and can be clearly keyed into what battle spirit does for each role. Yeah it would stink at first but over time players would adjust.
There are no set roles in pvp. You build a character to do what you want. Your suggestions, while I think you're on the right path, wouldn't actually stop a character from being tanky AND dropping damage.
Not to mention the fact that there's nothing wrong with running a max health, max armor build. Actual tanks are rather useful in pvp. The problem is people can build for that and still wipe the opposition.
Every build should have drawbacks. A pure DD build does immense damage with little survivability. A tank can survive onslaughts but can't kill 1vx. Then there are builds somewhere in between. That's how it should work. Right now you can be a tank AND do big damage, which leads to high ttk and nullifies actual DD builds.
My friend built a healer and he has 35k magika, 40k health and 38k resistance and 5k+ spell damage.
Why?
Because they tied healing to spell/weapon damage for some reason.
The why question is why are healer running around with such high stats without any buffing style sets. They only provide heals and tdon't offer anything more. Most groups like running with my characters as I'm always running debuffs and buffs on my characters and when you run into another group getting those debuffs can be the difference between a wipe or a win.Edited by MEBengalsFan2001 on December 1, 2021 2:22PM0 -
TheS1X✭✭✭Seriously? There are some hidden secrets.
There was this one guy year ago who blocked and reflected all damage and same time healed. Nobody killed him and everyone who tried, died! What is point of PvP with such build? Where is that vet skill, just holding one button and doing nothing? Guy was willing to share this build but I was not interested.Edited by TheS1X on December 1, 2021 3:54PM0 -
buzzclops✭✭✭People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.
[edited for rude comment]
Exactly this.
Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.Edited by buzzclops on December 1, 2021 4:54PM2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.
[edited for rude comment]
Exactly this.
Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.
I have a hard time believing this. People flock to the same builds across all platforms. XB and PC are both being dominated by 3 classes, all spec'd to tank while also packing devastating burst damage.
Some of these builds literally show no damage taken when hit by multiple combos from pure damage builds.
I would be very surprised if it isn't the same on PS.I drink and I stream things.3 -
TheS1X✭✭✭And it does not matter if this topic is year old, problem is still there and even worse than it was before.1
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gamma71✭✭✭✭People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.
[edited for rude comment]
Exactly this.
Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.
I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.
People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.3 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.
ZoS has stated they don't want to balance PvP and pve separately. So everything v implemented for PvP must also be implemented for PVE.0 -
vms11934✭✭✭People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.
[edited for rude comment]
Exactly this.
Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.
I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.
People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.
I'm on PS4 NA too and the tanky crap seems rampant to me. I may not be tops in dps, but I'm no slouch. Before the update, I was running MA and Carluurions and was able to do 70-100k in 1.1 seconds to a 6 mil dummy. One time, a necro just stood there while I was trying to take a resource (all guards were dead already). He didn't attack me because it seems like he knew I couldn't kill him. I would unload on him and he would maybe get to half life and heal to full right away. Total futility.
After the update, while running an experimental build that doesn't do nearly as much dps (only around 5k weapon damage and around 6k pen, 45% crit chance, but with Scavenging proc), I came across an afk S&B player during a keep siege. He didn't do anything. No heals, no blocking. Nothing. Which also means I didn't have to divert time to healing myself, dodging, running, etc. Took me about 15 seconds to kill him. Again, I know it wasn't a top dps build, but it's not complete [snip] either. What is complete [snip] is that someone can take that long to kill while afk. I would have absolutely no chance whatsoever 1v1 against them.
This game is broken.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 3, 2021 5:05PM2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.
[edited for rude comment]
Exactly this.
Right now the meta isn’t even about being tanky. At least on ps4 na everybody is in 3 damage set and full well fitted.(even on mag builds) If you think people are tanky it’s because you probably invested in some tankiness yourself and have very average damage because of that. This patch is the squishiest ive seen ppl run in a long time.
I'm on PS4 na also and I don't see this tank meta everyone is complaining about. Once in a while we run into a real tanky guy. Light attack is your friend.
People are dropping pretty quickly for the most part.
I'm on PS4 NA too and the tanky crap seems rampant to me. I may not be tops in dps, but I'm no slouch. Before the update, I was running MA and Carluurions and was able to do 70-100k in 1.1 seconds to a 6 mil dummy. One time, a necro just stood there while I was trying to take a resource (all guards were dead already). He didn't attack me because it seems like he knew I couldn't kill him. I would unload on him and he would maybe get to half life and heal to full right away. Total futility.
After the update, while running an experimental build that doesn't do nearly as much dps (only around 5k weapon damage and around 6k pen, 45% crit chance, but with Scavenging proc), I came across an afk S&B player during a keep siege. He didn't do anything. No heals, no blocking. Nothing. Which also means I didn't have to divert time to healing myself, dodging, running, etc. Took me about 15 seconds to kill him. Again, I know it wasn't a top dps build, but it's not complete [snip] either. What is complete [snip] is that someone can take that long to kill while afk. I would have absolutely no chance whatsoever 1v1 against them.
This game is broken.
Yeah like I said above I don't believe PS players don't run meta like everyone else, and right now meta is DK, Necro and templar tanks that are eating everything thrown at them while also dealing crazy damage.
I've tried the DK build just to see so I know how to attack them on my NB. It's dumb easy to 1vX entire groups then turn around and dragon leap them into oblivion.
This isn't a DK problem though. This is an issue with the idea that someone can build 33k+ health and 33k+armor with 2 defensive sets while still outputting 6k+ damage.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 3, 2021 5:06PMI drink and I stream things.0