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The tank meta gets worse and worse, Hard caps desperately needed in PvP
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echo2omega✭✭✭I don't really think a high health pool is issue with PVP. Stacking 24 HOT's able to regenerate 45k health/sec is the issue.
They need to do something more along the lines of diminishing returns on HOT stacks. (of the same ability)3 -
Xargas13✭✭✭Nah, health is fine, it would render some sets on REAL tanks useless. They need to nerf overperforming sets and abilities. Time and time again I see PvP bogus in this game, patch after patch. Some players are able to have everything in one character.
Here's some of the problems I noticed: player took huge damage, heals to full in seconds, takes damage again, again healed to full, and all the while to deal that damage you need to put an effort, AND, at the same time when he goes on the offensive he deals enough damage that you cannot even outheal. Sometimes though player just takes a very small damage but deals a lot of damage in return, that kills you faster then in COD. Also of course the problem of proc sets, builds very tanky, has zaan, deals 20k damage(that's full damage of zaan) adds some other stuff and player dead.
For me it seems that ZOS prefers it to be this way, as this problem has been present for a long time, players like to be overpowered and get defensive when you call this problems out, because they don't want to loose those easy kills, and calling it skill. ZOS in return patch after patch encourages those high over performing builds, I doubt that they are so clueless that they have no idea what they are doing. There is zero balance in some cases, I've been on giving end and a receiving end of this issue, and I've been observing this from other players in BG also. I know PvP people from other MMOs and they all don't want to play ESO for this very reason, I hear it often that in ESO with some abilities and sets you can be practically immortal, especially in 1v1, and they are not wrong.0 -
Rhaegar75✭✭✭✭✭Dilemma of the day in the BG world....how on earth would a non proc set DD hope to stand a chance against a 45k health Warden equipped with any 2H Vateshran, Malacath and 2 other proc sets?
Tanks per se are not the issue.
The problem is when tanks use combinations like the one I’ve outlined above!
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dilemma of the day in the BG world....how on earth would a non proc set DD hope to stand a chance against a 45k health Warden equipped with any 2H Vateshran, Malacath and 2 other proc sets?
Tanks per se are not the issue.
The problem is when tanks use combinations like the one I’ve outlined above!
Tbf, you would wanna run both vates, malacath and then a form of defense. With procs and higher damage, just having a big pool and a big heal isn't quite enough.
Id go Zaan Malacath the vates and pariah stacking resistance and health. Too much burst to go full procs imo0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dilemma of the day in the BG world....how on earth would a non proc set DD hope to stand a chance against a 45k health Warden equipped with any 2H Vateshran, Malacath and 2 other proc sets?
Tanks per se are not the issue.
The problem is when tanks use combinations like the one I’ve outlined above!
I'm not finding proc tanks to be a problem in BGs anymore. Improved stats has meant better healing and burst from stats, not procs. There are still players who can be extremely difficult to take down, but now they (rightfully) have pretty low killing power.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”1 -
Malariz✭✭Heavy armor passives are just too good..not to mention the stupid results when you're a vampire aswell. Of course it's tank meta, why would most people pay attention to what to dodge when they can just tank or block and still being able to put some good damage2
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martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tank meta is OTT again
Nerf glass cannons and buff DKs and Necros, stage 3 vamps etc
Seems like we are forever going in circles.....At least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*1 -
TheS1X✭✭✭Yup, I am amazingly tired of this crap. [snip]
I see PVP as only endgame content for my self and it is full of unkillable, self healing turtles, battles take ages and I just die of boredom, I actually let them kill me by just standing there, so I can port out of Cyro.
Nobody wants to die? Sure, lets give everyone huge health pools with burst heals and dot heals and reflective armors or shields etc...
[edited for quitting post]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 28, 2021 5:16PM4 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hard caps seem like a simple bandaid to a more complex situation that in the end doesn’t confront that makes them tanky.1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. Get rid of over heal. If you hit radiant and it targets someone at 100%, the hot is not applied.
2. Put a significant nerf to all damage, including procs, that scales with armor. Why not health? If you cap health at 33k, you just forced them to invest more into damage while still being tanks.
3. Rework Hrothgar to do the job it was meant to. Scale the damage to the targets armor + health rather than just armor.
4. Reverse the change to mechanical because that was the only reliable way to burst down a 45k health 33k armor tank that is still dropping 18k leaps. You removed NB bombers while allowing a ball group to run 5 Necro DC bombers who are all spamming radiant regen. I thought MA made it too easy to NB but it swung in the compete opposite direction.
5. Actually NERF DC because that's how these tank ball groups are running around with a 20 minutes TTK.Edited by DrSlaughtr on November 28, 2021 6:02PMI drink and I stream things.3 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭People, you are commenting on half-year old thread. [snip]
The situation is nowhere near to what we had during proc meta.
[edited for rude comment]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 28, 2021 6:59PM4 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Araneae6537 wrote: »" if you make a high health build, you’re sacrificing offensive stats so you should not be able to do as much damage. And that is a major problems with some proc sets, that they do free and significant damage independent of a player’s stats."
this exactly this. thats why im saying that procsets have to depend on stats like skills do.
but there is a problem in what ur saying. the tradeoff is not as significant as the tradeoff someone does for offense. by for example going newmoon and spinners in pvp all light armor penetration mundus u wont leave even a dent on a person with heavy armor using tankier sets.
why tho ? why cant someone who sacrifices regeneration armor pretty much anything that can keep him alive for that hard dmg cant leave a dent on someone in heavy armor defensive/regen set up ? there is the imbalance .... the imbalance of values in the game. (the procsets which dps used to kill tankier players created an illusion of balance)
we also have another problem here. sorcs.... they are the only class that can go into glasscannon without sacrificing survivability becouse of streak and massive shields.
the next problem is stamblade becouse they can use the dodgeroll AND shadowy disguise AND teleport
streak needs cast time or range nerf + cost more magicka+ nerf the morph that absorbs range attacks.
shadowy disguise should give stamina debuf so that if used dodgerolls cost 100 % more. the nb teleport should only work within line of sight. to even out the nerf shadowy disguise should give speedbuff.
the other classes are allright it seems.
i know many nb wont agree on the nerfs but im nb myself if i want to survive every fight i can if i use teleport and there is the problem if this game should get balanced damage where ppl can kill anything pretty fast if they sacrifice armor and survivability then there shouldnt be classes that can avoid death by such skills. it would become unfair.
Cast time on streak? No, they already have ramp increase from spamming it, I don't think its a problem at all. Especially if you have a gap closer and can spam it you can stay on top of them since they'd have to burn their mag pool away to escape anyone with gap closers like Plars. Also ball of lightning morph doesn't need a nerf, it's already been nerfed into the ground. It absorbs 1 projectile every second, if you have 3+ people chasing one guy with BoL the ball is only gonna absorb 1 projectile each second from one person, it's honestly underperforming.
Disagree on change to shade, that defeats the entire purpose of shade. You don't need LoS to use undo to teleport back up onto places you jumped down from, why is shade any different? What's the difference between a nb using shade into shadowy disguise vs undo into shadowy disguise to hide away? sure it costs ulti but they can just rebuild that ulti while in cloak with trash potions.Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade0 -
RedTalon✭✭✭✭✭If you cant id the healers in ball groups and target them hard its on you, hsould be able to break ball groups even with high health once you it the key parts, o come around to their tail end where the weaker players are and just steam roll to the front, imho0 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.
If the devs put hard cap in place in PVP it should be by role. For instance tanks role should never get weapon/spell damage above 4K but health and resistance can go as high as needed. . Healers and DPS should not be able to have more than 30k health. DPS resistance should be capped at 18k and healers resistance capped at 23K.
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AuraNebula✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »1. Get rid of over heal. If you hit radiant and it targets someone at 100%, the hot is not applied.
2. Put a significant nerf to all damage, including procs, that scales with armor. Why not health? If you cap health at 33k, you just forced them to invest more into damage while still being tanks.
3. Rework Hrothgar to do the job it was meant to. Scale the damage to the targets armor + health rather than just armor.
4. Reverse the change to mechanical because that was the only reliable way to burst down a 45k health 33k armor tank that is still dropping 18k leaps. You removed NB bombers while allowing a ball group to run 5 Necro DC bombers who are all spamming radiant regen. I thought MA made it too easy to NB but it swung in the compete opposite direction.
5. Actually NERF DC because that's how these tank ball groups are running around with a 20 minutes TTK.
They buffed bombers to an extreme and now they nerfed them to an extreme. They should have left acuity alone. After the nerf to proxy the nerfs should have stopped there. If we had acuity atm we would not have rampant zergs with hundreds of unkillable dks.1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭AuraNebula wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »1. Get rid of over heal. If you hit radiant and it targets someone at 100%, the hot is not applied.
2. Put a significant nerf to all damage, including procs, that scales with armor. Why not health? If you cap health at 33k, you just forced them to invest more into damage while still being tanks.
3. Rework Hrothgar to do the job it was meant to. Scale the damage to the targets armor + health rather than just armor.
4. Reverse the change to mechanical because that was the only reliable way to burst down a 45k health 33k armor tank that is still dropping 18k leaps. You removed NB bombers while allowing a ball group to run 5 Necro DC bombers who are all spamming radiant regen. I thought MA made it too easy to NB but it swung in the compete opposite direction.
5. Actually NERF DC because that's how these tank ball groups are running around with a 20 minutes TTK.
They buffed bombers to an extreme and now they nerfed them to an extreme. They should have left acuity alone. After the nerf to proxy the nerfs should have stopped there. If we had acuity atm we would not have rampant zergs with hundreds of unkillable dks.
Yup. If I was wearing MA instead of Caluurions I could go 1v1 with these DK and necros. Instead what often happens is they eat the Caluurions, break free, perma block and heal through my ultimate. The only thing hitting hard for me is Caluurions. It's one proc. If it doesn't do the job, my class skills do too little damage, even with stygian and Balorg, because their health and armor is high enough to absorb it all.I drink and I stream things.3 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Hard caps are poor game design and indicative of worsening gameplay.
The answer lies in adequately addressing how procs react with specific stats.
Hard caps will not fix what you are looking to fix and worsen the gameplay experience for the little PvP population left in this game.
I am honestly confused at how people want classes to be even more killable with burst the way it is right now.
I am tempted to say it might be a user issue but I want to hear people out.1 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »How about diminishing returns on health after 30k and resistance above 20K. To get another 1K health the player has to basically put 2K into health. Same with resistance.
Instead of a player having 40K health it would be 35k. Instead of a player with 31K resistance it would 25.5K. This may help reduce some of the tank meta in PVP.
The issue with that is I think it would be difficult to put into battle spirit and if you made it game wide you'd really hurt PvE tanks.
A simple damage debuff for health+armor beginning at 60k total could be added to battle spirit.I drink and I stream things.0 -
gamma71✭✭✭✭Most people build high health chars because some classes like mag dk have 0 mobility compared to say a sorc can build for full damage and still have mobility streak away. I've been running mist but it's like a slow death form.
Most people that I know personally that complain about tanky character s are nightblades and sorcs because they can't blow somebody up in 2 seconds.3 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Most people build high health chars because some classes like mag dk have 0 mobility compared to say a sorc can build for full damage and still have mobility streak away. I've been running mist but it's like a slow death form.
Most people that I know personally that complain about tanky character s are nightblades and sorcs because they can't blow somebody up in 2 seconds.
No it's because I'm tired of a group of 8+ spending 10 minutes chasing the same two players around every resource tower because they have exceptional survivability while still outputting tons of damage.
A DK and Necro right now can be tanky with big damage even without running major resolve.
You don't need streak to be mobile. There's swift. There's mist. Or, you know, you can just eat everything and kill them with one leap.Edited by DrSlaughtr on November 29, 2021 11:14PMI drink and I stream things.2 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭I was playing last night on Xbox NA, and there was a group of very tanky players. Their health bars were 37k and up. How can a player having 37K health can hit you with 13k+ damage grave rober in pvp? This particular player had Dark Convergence and a vicious death. His health was +37k and was hitting like a truck with DK, Grave Rover, Ult and Vicious Death combo. My health was +29k with 21K resistances, and I was getting deleted with that combo half the time. How can this be? I assume that to get to 37k health one most invest attribute points in health. How can they still hit this hard? There is only one conclusion - necros are broken!1
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AuraNebula✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Hard caps are poor game design and indicative of worsening gameplay.
The answer lies in adequately addressing how procs react with specific stats.
Hard caps will not fix what you are looking to fix and worsen the gameplay experience for the little PvP population left in this game.
I am honestly confused at how people want classes to be even more killable with burst the way it is right now.
I am tempted to say it might be a user issue but I want to hear people out.
If you sacrifice all of your health and armor to run a glass cannon build why is it fair that people can run incredibly tanky sets with fat heals and still be able to burst? Something has got to give. How is pvp fun if the majority of the player base is unkillable? Just have everyone run dks, necrosis, and templars and call it a day? Sounds balanced.Edited by AuraNebula on November 29, 2021 11:46PM3 -
gamma71✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »Most people build high health chars because some classes like mag dk have 0 mobility compared to say a sorc can build for full damage and still have mobility streak away. I've been running mist but it's like a slow death form.
Most people that I know personally that complain about tanky character s are nightblades and sorcs because they can't blow somebody up in 2 seconds.
No it's because I'm tired of a group of 8+ spending 10 minutes chasing the same two players around every resource tower because they have exceptional survivability while still outputting tons of damage.
A DK and Necro right now can be tanky with big damage even without running major resolve.
You don't need streak to be mobile. There's swift. There's mist. Or, you know, you can just eat everything and kill them with one leap.
Most tower humpers and rock hugers are using balrogh and just building ult and are built for that 1 trick kill. But those guys aren't the same as say the 45k health tanky character s who take damage and it's a battle of attrition. The tower humpers are avoiding damage and just building ult.
I for the most part don't waste my time chasing them anymore it's a waste of my time and frustrating. Who cares let them take a resource. Don't play into there game they want you to waste time chasing them. That's all those guys do I've ran into guys like that in the open feild and blow them up if they have no Los to hide behind.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheEndBringer wrote: »Most people build high health chars because some classes like mag dk have 0 mobility compared to say a sorc can build for full damage and still have mobility streak away. I've been running mist but it's like a slow death form.
Most people that I know personally that complain about tanky character s are nightblades and sorcs because they can't blow somebody up in 2 seconds.
No it's because I'm tired of a group of 8+ spending 10 minutes chasing the same two players around every resource tower because they have exceptional survivability while still outputting tons of damage.
A DK and Necro right now can be tanky with big damage even without running major resolve.
You don't need streak to be mobile. There's swift. There's mist. Or, you know, you can just eat everything and kill them with one leap.
Most tower humpers and rock hugers are using balrogh and just building ult and are built for that 1 trick kill. But those guys aren't the same as say the 45k health tanky character s who take damage and it's a battle of attrition. The tower humpers are avoiding damage and just building ult.
I for the most part don't waste my time chasing them anymore it's a waste of my time and frustrating. Who cares let them take a resource. Don't play into there game they want you to waste time chasing them. That's all those guys do I've ran into guys like that in the open feild and blow them up if they have no Los to hide behind.
You can't leave a brawler alone in a keep. They'll flag it.
You can't leave them alone on a resource. They'll attach your back line as you seige.
Out in the field? Sure. I'll leave them.
But I'm not talking about a NB building ultimate to soul tether. I'm talking about 37k+ health tanks eating damage left and right till their ultimates fill. Then it's a VD dragon leap, a graveyard+colossus, etc. Group is dead or heavily crippled.
That is what I'm talking about and no, it shouldn't work that way. There's no draw back to being a tank right now. I know that's fun for tower runners who cackle while wasting everyone's time.Edited by DrSlaughtr on November 30, 2021 3:19AMI drink and I stream things.1 -
vms11934✭✭✭AuraNebula wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »Hard caps are poor game design and indicative of worsening gameplay.
The answer lies in adequately addressing how procs react with specific stats.
Hard caps will not fix what you are looking to fix and worsen the gameplay experience for the little PvP population left in this game.
I am honestly confused at how people want classes to be even more killable with burst the way it is right now.
I am tempted to say it might be a user issue but I want to hear people out.
If you sacrifice all of your health and armor to run a glass cannon build why is it fair that people can run incredibly tanky sets with fat heals and still be able to burst? Something has got to give. How is pvp fun if the majority of the player base is unkillable? Just have everyone run dks, necrosis, and templars and call it a day? Sounds balanced.
^^^
Broken game5