The tank meta gets worse and worse, Hard caps desperately needed in PvP

Fawn4287

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

Brrrofski

I also have long wanted a cap for max health.

If you want to play a tank role, it would mean you need to build it in to your gear, not keep damage but run high health. It's too easy to get high health without too much sacrifice to survive burst as you keep kiting and just turn on people. Don't get me wrong, it's fun to do that, but it's dumb.

To be fair, without free damage procs these builds are a bit less effective at the moment though. I definitely don't agree that it's worse. Even straight tanks are missing some key sets that made them more tanky.

Also, even though I play mag sorc mostly in pvp, I'd be fine with dampen magic and hardened ward being major wards so they cannot stack. You can still survive with one shield fine, just need to put a bit more defence in your build.

Noctus

Fawn4287 wrote: »

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

these are mostly or only warden players tho. no other class can pull that [snip] off like they do

[edited for profanity bypass]

Rhaegar75

Noctus wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

these are mostly or only warden players tho. no other class can pull that [snip] off like they do

I agree. It’s not as bad now. With the exception of p2w wardens most classes can’t achieve what you described.

However, I’d be strongly in favour of placing a hard cap on health stacking.

Never been a fan of tank builds especially during the proc meta - high health, high armour, high damage?!?!?!?! It was truly ridiculous.

[edited to remove quote]

Noctus

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

these are mostly or only warden players tho. no other class can pull that [snip] off like they do

I agree. It’s not as bad now. With the exception of p2w wardens most classes can’t achieve what you described.

However, I’d be strongly in favour of placing a hard cap on health stacking.

Never been a fan of tank builds especially during the proc meta - high health, high armour, high damage?!?!?!?! It was truly ridiculous.

im rly not in favor for capping things just becouse one class is out of line. i rather have that class nerfed to the point where its equally strong. right now i can run 20 k pen, minor beserk etc. and still dont leave a dent in their hp while they can heal up their 40 k hp with one skill and deal damage with their vateshran and harbinger/zaan or wait for their ult.

it is unfair ur basically getting punished for not playing that class and that style becouse there is no way for ur own playstyle to take that player down and if u would copy that playstyle then u both would end up with no kill.

thats basically the dilema. u join them u cant win and if u dont u cant win either.

[edited to remove quote]

Rhaegar75

Noctus wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

these are mostly or only warden players tho. no other class can pull that [snip] off like they do

I agree. It’s not as bad now. With the exception of p2w wardens most classes can’t achieve what you described.

However, I’d be strongly in favour of placing a hard cap on health stacking.

Never been a fan of tank builds especially during the proc meta - high health, high armour, high damage?!?!?!?! It was truly ridiculous.

im rly not in favor for capping things just becouse one class is out of line. i rather have that class nerfed to the point where its equally strong. right now i can run 20 k pen, minor beserk etc. and still dont leave a dent in their hp while they can heal up their 40 k hp with one skill and deal damage with their vateshran and harbinger/zaan or wait for their ult.

it is unfair ur basically getting punished for not playing that class and that style becouse there is no way for ur own playstyle to take that player down and if u would copy that playstyle then u both would end up with no kill.

thats basically the dilema. u join them u cant win and if u dont u cant win either.

Fair: I agree with your point!
It's relevant to target the overperformance rather than punishing all classes

[edited to remove quote]

Waffennacht

I've always been a fan of tank builds.

Fawn4287

Noctus wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

these are mostly or only warden players tho. no other class can pull that [snip] off like they do

I agree. It’s not as bad now. With the exception of p2w wardens most classes can’t achieve what you described.

However, I’d be strongly in favour of placing a hard cap on health stacking.

Never been a fan of tank builds especially during the proc meta - high health, high armour, high damage?!?!?!?! It was truly ridiculous.

im rly not in favor for capping things just becouse one class is out of line. i rather have that class nerfed to the point where its equally strong. right now i can run 20 k pen, minor beserk etc. and still dont leave a dent in their hp while they can heal up their 40 k hp with one skill and deal damage with their vateshran and harbinger/zaan or wait for their ult.

it is unfair ur basically getting punished for not playing that class and that style becouse there is no way for ur own playstyle to take that player down and if u would copy that playstyle then u both would end up with no kill.

thats basically the dilema. u join them u cant win and if u dont u cant win either.

This is the best way to put it, many people are happy with just not dying and this class in particular facilitates that, if anything a health cap works well against it as health boosting passive becomes not as strong when their health could only reach ~27ish k health and still be doing something. Overall many people choose to play a 1v1 stalemate build and I think that a hardcap for health would make these far less viable and more easily dealt with. However I am currently loving no proc cyro, Im dying far more often but I’m winning fights and killing players I absolutely never would have last patch. Sure there are more sorcs and just as many wardens but I’ve seen more magblades and magplars in the last few days than I’ve seen in the last year in cyro, people love to talk about ‘variety’ and ‘diversity’ when arguing against nerfs but will screech “I’ll sue you for this!!” When zos balances things and removes the cheese from cyrodil.

[edited to remove quote]

olsborg

Brrrofski wrote: »

Also, even though I play mag sorc mostly in pvp, I'd be fine with dampen magic and hardened ward being major wards so they cannot stack. You can still survive with one shield fine, just need to put a bit more defence in your build.

I would not mind bringing softcaps for max hp and hpregen back. And I also main a magsorc and wouldnt mind making hardened ward and dampen magicka not stack with each other...they would just overlap/replace each other if cast simultaneously.

Fawn4287

olsborg wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Also, even though I play mag sorc mostly in pvp, I'd be fine with dampen magic and hardened ward being major wards so they cannot stack. You can still survive with one shield fine, just need to put a bit more defence in your build.

I would not mind bringing softcaps for max hp and hpregen back. And I also main a magsorc and wouldnt mind making hardened ward and dampen magicka not stack with each other...they would just overlap/replace each other if cast simultaneously.

If they did this and lowered the range of streak a tad no one would be able to complain about magsorc again

Araneae6537

I see no logic or fairness in capping health and ZOS just increased our base health too. As I see it, the only problem is when there’s no trade-off — if you make a high health build, you’re sacrificing offensive stats so you should not be able to do as much damage. And that is a major problems with some proc sets, that they do free and significant damage independent of a player’s stats.

And calling wardens P2W is absurd. Morrowind has been part of the base game for a while now and if you’ve been around longer than that, the cost in Crowns or gold for Crowns to upgrade is negligible.

katorga

You don't need to build for a lot of damage in ball groups. Each player added is a 100% increase. So plenty of slack to stack health or other non-offense stats. Cap health, and their damage/healing will go up.

Mariusghost84

I noticed this in a BG the other day. Random BG and all 4 dudes had 40 + k health wearing cancer procs.

Fawn4287

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I see no logic or fairness in capping health and ZOS just increased our base health too. As I see it, the only problem is when there’s no trade-off — if you make a high health build, you’re sacrificing offensive stats so you should not be able to do as much damage. And that is a major problems with some proc sets, that they do free and significant damage independent of a player’s stats.

And calling wardens P2W is absurd. Morrowind has been part of the base game for a while now and if you’ve been around longer than that, the cost in Crowns or gold for Crowns to upgrade is negligible.

I don’t think he means P2W as in its so easy that you play it or you have no chance beating someone regardless of their skill level like malacath and proc damage sets, its that all DLC has to be inherently better than current options in some ways which is why stamden has been consistently pretty much a top 3 stam PvP option since its introduction, much like magcro is generally always very competitive as a magdps option in PvE considering its fairly simple static rotation. If DLC didn’t offer some form an improvement on base game, what incentive would there be to buy it? To someone who has played 1 or 2 classes update after update for a long time then seeing an army of meta bandwagon players hopping to a DLC class with the ease of survival that warden offers would be quite frustrating.

Rhaegar75

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I see no logic or fairness in capping health and ZOS just increased our base health too. As I see it, the only problem is when there’s no trade-off — if you make a high health build, you’re sacrificing offensive stats so you should not be able to do as much damage. And that is a major problems with some proc sets, that they do free and significant damage independent of a player’s stats.

And calling wardens P2W is absurd. Morrowind has been part of the base game for a while now and if you’ve been around longer than that, the cost in Crowns or gold for Crowns to upgrade is negligible.

we could have a semantical debate on which terms are the most appropriate: P2W? easy mode? noob friendly? well rounded?

However, you must concur that Wardens, especially armed with high health and procs, are an inherently strong class (too strong imo) that can be too easily carried by its own skills and dynamics.

In my opinion, playing a warden requires less skills (I don't mean no skill lets be clear) than other classes.....I fluctuate between plars and DKs and I'm far from a good PvPer....however...give me a high health + proc Warden and my K/D ration goes through the roof

Noctus

Araneae6537 wrote: »

" if you make a high health build, you’re sacrificing offensive stats so you should not be able to do as much damage. And that is a major problems with some proc sets, that they do free and significant damage independent of a player’s stats."

this exactly this. thats why im saying that procsets have to depend on stats like skills do.

but there is a problem in what ur saying. the tradeoff is not as significant as the tradeoff someone does for offense. by for example going newmoon and spinners in pvp all light armor penetration mundus u wont leave even a dent on a person with heavy armor using tankier sets.
why tho ? why cant someone who sacrifices regeneration armor pretty much anything that can keep him alive for that hard dmg cant leave a dent on someone in heavy armor defensive/regen set up ? there is the imbalance .... the imbalance of values in the game. (the procsets which dps used to kill tankier players created an illusion of balance)

we also have another problem here. sorcs.... they are the only class that can go into glasscannon without sacrificing survivability becouse of streak and massive shields.

the next problem is stamblade becouse they can use the dodgeroll AND shadowy disguise AND teleport

streak needs cast time or range nerf + cost more magicka+ nerf the morph that absorbs range attacks.

shadowy disguise should give stamina debuf so that if used dodgerolls cost 100 % more. the nb teleport should only work within line of sight. to even out the nerf shadowy disguise should give speedbuff.

the other classes are allright it seems.

i know many nb wont agree on the nerfs but im nb myself if i want to survive every fight i can if i use teleport and there is the problem if this game should get balanced damage where ppl can kill anything pretty fast if they sacrifice armor and survivability then there shouldnt be classes that can avoid death by such skills. it would become unfair.

UntouchableHunter

Sorry but what do you want? Everybody running the same sets with 19k health?

This is a joke, let players build what they want and have fun with the build they want. You guys are complain about everything you can't kill.

buzzclops

I personally feel the tank meta is over tbh. The problem was all the %reduction from old cp. right now i haven’t fought a single build i couldn’t kill.the balance is the best its been in years. I guess you could theoretically make an unkillable tank but at least right now they would just be a target dummy to get your ultimate on. No damage at all. You need to actually land combos this patch not rot ppl down with procs

Fawn4287

katorga wrote: »

You don't need to build for a lot of damage in ball groups. Each player added is a 100% increase. So plenty of slack to stack health or other non-offense stats. Cap health, and their damage/healing will go up.

Their damage and sustain is irrelevant, a mass of players dumping AOE ults coupled with unblockable and undodgable CCs will always work incredibly effectively much like stacking plenty of cross heals, at least lowering their health leaves them with less ability to cushion the blows they do take.

Fawn4287

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Sorry but what you want? Everybody running the same sets with 19k health?

This is a joke, let players build what they want and have fun with the build they want. You guys are complain about everything you can't kill.

I said something like 30k yet somehow you’ve determined you would play at 19? I find it funny how people will play COD and pubs and die 30 times a game, come on to ESO PvP and are doing everything they can to die once

UntouchableHunter

Fawn4287 wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Sorry but what you want? Everybody running the same sets with 19k health?

This is a joke, let players build what they want and have fun with the build they want. You guys are complain about everything you can't kill.

I said something like 30k yet somehow you’ve determined you would play at 19? I find it funny how people will play COD and pubs and die 30 times a game, come on to ESO PvP and are doing everything they can to die once

Yeh you said 30k other in the forum are asking for 25k, when we get your 30 someone will fight for 25 and soon we will be in 19.

We must stop to force people play the way we wana. This game is amazing because the diversity of build, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Fawn4287

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Sorry but what you want? Everybody running the same sets with 19k health?

This is a joke, let players build what they want and have fun with the build they want. You guys are complain about everything you can't kill.

I said something like 30k yet somehow you’ve determined you would play at 19? I find it funny how people will play COD and pubs and die 30 times a game, come on to ESO PvP and are doing everything they can to die once

Yeh you said 30k other in the forum are asking for 25k, when we get your 30 someone will fight for 25 and soon we will be in 19.

We must stop to force people play the way we wana. This game is amazing because the diversity of build, [snip]

Describing a slippery slope is logical fallacy and an obvious one at that. A more obvious reality is that if you allow people to stack heavily in to tankyness they nearly always will which is why 75% of meta builds run heavy armour, sword + board with 35k+ health

silky_soft

Some things are just over tuned. Always have. Hp regen is too strong. Block is too cheap. Bring back uncapped infused oblivion damage enchant I say.

tsaescishoeshiner

I've been seeing a lot of individual 1vxers be much less able to kill players in Cyrodiil than before, but still survive against them. A lot of tanky stam builds who need to ult to kill anyone, and even then struggle to do it.

Having to choose between defensive and offensive CP seems to have had that impact, though of course there were many other changes with Update 29.

KurtAngle2

silky_soft wrote: »

Some things are just over tuned. Always have. Hp regen is too strong. Block is too cheap. Bring back uncapped infused oblivion damage enchant I say.

Are you stuck in prepatch meta? The BGs PvP is literally one shot fiesta or almost there where:

- HP regen doesn't solve survivability issues
- Clowns go full damage builds and gang up on you whilst you can't do anything aside from running away since 1vsX is impossible now
- Nobody blocks aside from troll tanks, roll dodge is the safest best now

Fawn4287

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

Some things are just over tuned. Always have. Hp regen is too strong. Block is too cheap. Bring back uncapped infused oblivion damage enchant I say.

Are you stuck in prepatch meta? The BGs PvP is literally one shot fiesta or almost there where:

- HP regen doesn't solve survivability issues
- Clowns go full damage builds and gang up on you whilst you can't do anything aside from running away since 1vsX is impossible now
- Nobody blocks aside from troll tanks, roll dodge is the safest best now

Obviously aren’t running in to anyone running the likes of pariah, those wardens and stamcros in heavy are borderline unkillable 1v1 let alone a 1 shot

katorga

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Sorry but what do you want? Everybody running the same sets with 19k health?

This is a joke, let players build what they want and have fun with the build they want. You guys are complain about everything you can't kill.

Almost there in Cyrodiil.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

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katorga

Fawn4287 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

You don't need to build for a lot of damage in ball groups. Each player added is a 100% increase. So plenty of slack to stack health or other non-offense stats. Cap health, and their damage/healing will go up.

Their damage and sustain is irrelevant, a mass of players dumping AOE ults coupled with unblockable and undodgable CCs will always work incredibly effectively much like stacking plenty of cross heals, at least lowering their health leaves them with less ability to cushion the blows they do take.

Not really, because if one stat becomes inefficient you move to the next, so either healing goes way up, mitigation goes way up, whatever. Like you said damage and sustain is irrelevant. Ball groups are the most efficient way to pvp (provided the cats stay herded).

Still I'm not sure why it matters. TTK is pretty darned low even with high health being the default.

Araneae6537

Noctus wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

" if you make a high health build, you’re sacrificing offensive stats so you should not be able to do as much damage. And that is a major problems with some proc sets, that they do free and significant damage independent of a player’s stats."

this exactly this. thats why im saying that procsets have to depend on stats like skills do.

but there is a problem in what ur saying. the tradeoff is not as significant as the tradeoff someone does for offense. by for example going newmoon and spinners in pvp all light armor penetration mundus u wont leave even a dent on a person with heavy armor using tankier sets.
why tho ? why cant someone who sacrifices regeneration armor pretty much anything that can keep him alive for that hard dmg cant leave a dent on someone in heavy armor defensive/regen set up ? there is the imbalance .... the imbalance of values in the game. (the procsets which dps used to kill tankier players created an illusion of balance)

we also have another problem here. sorcs.... they are the only class that can go into glasscannon without sacrificing survivability becouse of streak and massive shields.

the next problem is stamblade becouse they can use the dodgeroll AND shadowy disguise AND teleport

streak needs cast time or range nerf + cost more magicka+ nerf the morph that absorbs range attacks.

shadowy disguise should give stamina debuf so that if used dodgerolls cost 100 % more. the nb teleport should only work within line of sight. to even out the nerf shadowy disguise should give speedbuff.

the other classes are allright it seems.

i know many nb wont agree on the nerfs but im nb myself if i want to survive every fight i can if i use teleport and there is the problem if this game should get balanced damage where ppl can kill anything pretty fast if they sacrifice armor and survivability then there shouldnt be classes that can avoid death by such skills. it would become unfair.

I would much rather see the toolkits of other classes expanded so that they don’t have to rely on procs, which I would like to see more balanced so there truly are nearly equally effective options. Sorc shields have already been nerfed a lot and nightblade is not the easiest to play and would be nothing without unique skillset. It sounds like warden, necro and sorc at least are all competitive. I hear vastly different things about nightblade but I think they may need some adjustments and cast times removed. Dragonknight definitely needs some improvements and probably templar too, despite the occasional complaints about jabs.

TL;DR Don’t break what works but fix what’s underperforming so that everyone can have fun with unique and useful skillsets.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Fawn4287 wrote: »

45k health on everyone in ball groups, 35k+ is the standard, you made the game less tanky and people just keep upping health, causing what seems like the polar opposite of the desired effect, If there was ever a need for health cap reintroductions, its now. 30k health should be the absolute hard cap, any more just stops reasonable burst as an option as most people get hit hard once, then hold block for dear life. Magsorc max shield stacking is also in the same boat as this problem.

In a game where you can build for an extreme amount of damage and the only drawback is you might have to respawn and ride 45 seconds to a fight, it amazes me that people don’t stop following the stupid meta.

You can’t kill people like that not because they are unkillable!

You can’t kill people like that because you’re wearing things like impen and nerfing your own gear!

If you want to kill someone like this, then put on your PVE style killing monsters gear and melt them. Yes, you’ll die more than you do now. Who cares. Just ride back to the fight. The stupid ball group has to travel 10 times farther to get back to their stupid ball group spot.