Overland is too easy!

Iccotak

CP5 wrote: »

crjs1 wrote: »

If anyone thinks ZOS are going to rework the mechanics of the many many many overland story bosses we have, they are in cloud cocku land.

Plus what do we mean by challenging? Do we mean challenging for a CP300 a CP810, a end game trial or PvP player? If ZOS did rework bosses to be a more challenging within in days the same complaints would come about them not being hard enough.

Plus when did the story just be one about the end boss? For all those people saying they can’t be bothered playing the DLC as the boss is underwhelming, is not the journey to the boss just as important? For me it the whole story that matters, the dialogue the characters, not just a final boss fight. I will jump into an arena for a good fight.

Honestly overland is fine as it is. Take a look around there are new players dying all over the place still.

The journey to the end is the buildup, but just like the end of ME3 if the ending fails to stick the landing the whole thing has a lackluster memory from then on. When the final boss is about as competent as a wet cardboard cut-out then every npc reaction that "its the end of the world" and "this villain is super serious" come off as pathetic, and the cries of every npc from then on sound like they're making a mountain of an anthill, hard to invest myself in a story when I know the outcome will always be the same.

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Bingo. If the final fight sucks then the story isn’t memorable.

That’s why I think it’s a glaring flaw in the game.
Making your main antagonist one of the easiest fights in the game is just not good design. There’s no way around that.

The Gameplay and Story should go hand in hand. If the story says they’re the biggest baddest baddie on the block then the gameplay should reflect that.

And I absolutely agree with @Thechuckage when they disagree with this insistence that the general game & Main Story should cater only to the lowest common denominator to a point that it feels like a walking simulator.

CP5

phantasmalD wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

I'm currently working on getting back into Skyrim for giggles because I had an itch to play it again- and I can guarantee if everything fell over pathetically like it does in ESO, it would not be fun *at all*.

You mean the game that lets you craft absurdly overpowered gear that allows you to one-shot anything even on legendary difficulty (including the final boss)? Which you have to actively ignore, aka 'gimp yourself' to preserve any semblance of challenge in a game that was actually heavily critized for being too casual?

What I'm trying to say is that Skyrim is not a very good example here.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

It's an rpg (role playing game).

Yes. And becoming stronger is a central part of an RPG. Becoming stronger = certain fights and enemies become less challenging.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You level up and get good gear and weapons and feel like a bad ar$3- why should you have to gimp yourself in a game to have immersive encounters

I think these are kinda contradictory statements. Like how can you feel like a bad A if everything is giving you just as much trouble at level 30 as they did at level 1.
Also, why is it not immersive to be stronger than someone else? The fact that you defeated them easily doesn't mean they are weak, you are just stronger.

CP5 wrote: »

Direfrost for example is infinitely harder when you try to keep an inexperienced player alive.

You mean that it poses a 'challenge'? 🤔
Funny that;

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is not the stats, it’s the mechanics.
While stats are in important factor that should not be dismissed, it is the mechanics that determine whether or not the fight is going to be engaging.

Quest fights have actually been becoming more nuanced tho, no? Been a while but I'm pretty sure the Elsweyr bosses had some pretty elaborate patterns.

"Poses a challenge" as in, "keeping a bad player alive only serves to heal the boss so they are better off dead if they don't know how to perform a cc break". The challenge is easy, let the inexperienced player die, then they get frustrated since they weren't allowed to participate in the fight. Grand design.

Speaking of I tried to duo the hunger wb in vvardenfel and every time the boss pinned me the other player just stood by and watched, because the bright red lines above the bosses head didn't clue them in that they had to bash to save me from the pin, thankfully about 4 other players rushed in to tag the boss and the rest was easy, but seriously, the tutorial has to pause time and make you do something 3 times in a row, but if overland never expects anything more than left clicking that information goes away.

Iccotak

phantasmalD wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is not the stats, it’s the mechanics.
While stats are in important factor that should not be dismissed, it is the mechanics that determine whether or not the fight is going to be engaging.

Quest fights have actually been becoming more nuanced tho, no? Been a while but I'm pretty sure the Elsweyr bosses had some pretty elaborate patterns.

The main story boss fights in Elsweyr were god awful.

That was actually one of my main criticisms of Season of the Dragon.

Laatvulon, the Khajiit Dragon Priest, Kaalgrontiid - All of them sucked.

They’re mechanics were barebones minimum. They weren’t remotely close to the concept of elaborate.

It was a boss fight for new player with kid gloves.
There was no danger and certainly no challenge. I even wore less than my ideal set and all it did was make the fight tedious.

Sunspire and the Dungeons though were great. A+ work, really kept me on my toes, kept me engaged, and was an overall memorable fight.

LashanW

SilverBride wrote: »

Not every player's end goal is vet dungeons and trials. Some players are happy just doing the story on one or a string of alts. Or roleplaying. Or crafting. Or housing.

Maybe I just have higher standards for a game. But I want interesting stories, good music AND engaging gameplay for a game to be enjoyable. If music is subpar I can let it slide, but the other two are a must. Questing in this game requires no effort and provide zero challenge if you are a half decent player. If I just wanted a good story I'd just watch a movie or a TV show. But that's just my preference, it doesn't make preferences of players like you any less valid/important. And that is the problem with MMOs, can't please everybody.

Only way to solve this conflict of preferences is to provide veteran instances of zones for those who seek the challenging gameplay while keeping the current normal instances for players who wants no change. Veteran zone instances should not only have higher health enemies but with also improved mechanics, making basic combat stuff such as positioning, dodging and interrupting actually relevant and necessary. But this is a massive amount of development work so I don't see ZoS ever doing it.

So after 3+ years of playing this game I've simply given up on the single player portion of the game and only play group content with my friends and guildies now. For single player/ questing experience I just play other games.

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

crjs1 wrote: »

If anyone thinks ZOS are going to rework the mechanics of the many many many overland story bosses we have, they are in cloud cocku land.

Plus what do we mean by challenging? Do we mean challenging for a CP300 a CP810, a end game trial or PvP player? If ZOS did rework bosses to be a more challenging within in days the same complaints would come about them not being hard enough.

Plus when did the story just be one about the end boss? For all those people saying they can’t be bothered playing the DLC as the boss is underwhelming, is not the journey to the boss just as important? For me it the whole story that matters, the dialogue the characters, not just a final boss fight. I will jump into an arena for a good fight.

Honestly overland is fine as it is. Take a look around there are new players dying all over the place still.

The journey to the end is the buildup, but just like the end of ME3 if the ending fails to stick the landing the whole thing has a lackluster memory from then on. When the final boss is about as competent as a wet cardboard cut-out then every npc reaction that "its the end of the world" and "this villain is super serious" come off as pathetic, and the cries of every npc from then on sound like they're making a mountain of an anthill, hard to invest myself in a story when I know the outcome will always be the same.

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Bingo. If the final fight sucks then the story isn’t memorable.

That’s why I think it’s a glaring flaw in the game.
Making your main antagonist one of the easiest fights in the game is just not good design. There’s no way around that.

The Gameplay and Story should go hand in hand. If the story says they’re the biggest baddest baddie on the block then the gameplay should reflect that.

And I absolutely agree with @Thechuckage when they disagree with this insistence that the general game & Main Story should cater only to the lowest common denominator to a point that it feels like a walking simulator.

I tend to go more with the journey than the destination for my focus. I enjoy the story as it unfolds. Sure I would like the fights at the end of the journey to be more epic. Doesn't take away from the story though that they are not. I enjoyed the path getting there.

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

crjs1 wrote: »

If anyone thinks ZOS are going to rework the mechanics of the many many many overland story bosses we have, they are in cloud cocku land.

Plus what do we mean by challenging? Do we mean challenging for a CP300 a CP810, a end game trial or PvP player? If ZOS did rework bosses to be a more challenging within in days the same complaints would come about them not being hard enough.

Plus when did the story just be one about the end boss? For all those people saying they can’t be bothered playing the DLC as the boss is underwhelming, is not the journey to the boss just as important? For me it the whole story that matters, the dialogue the characters, not just a final boss fight. I will jump into an arena for a good fight.

Honestly overland is fine as it is. Take a look around there are new players dying all over the place still.

The journey to the end is the buildup, but just like the end of ME3 if the ending fails to stick the landing the whole thing has a lackluster memory from then on. When the final boss is about as competent as a wet cardboard cut-out then every npc reaction that "its the end of the world" and "this villain is super serious" come off as pathetic, and the cries of every npc from then on sound like they're making a mountain of an anthill, hard to invest myself in a story when I know the outcome will always be the same.

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Bingo. If the final fight sucks then the story isn’t memorable.

That’s why I think it’s a glaring flaw in the game.
Making your main antagonist one of the easiest fights in the game is just not good design. There’s no way around that.

The Gameplay and Story should go hand in hand. If the story says they’re the biggest baddest baddie on the block then the gameplay should reflect that.

And I absolutely agree with @Thechuckage when they disagree with this insistence that the general game & Main Story should cater only to the lowest common denominator to a point that it feels like a walking simulator.

I tend to go more with the journey than the destination for my focus. I enjoy the story as it unfolds. Sure I would like the fights at the end of the journey to be more epic. Doesn't take away from the story though that they are not. I enjoyed the path getting there.

I disagree when the journey can spend up a Main Questline or even a year hyping up its main antagonist.

The destination is as important as the journey.

A mediocre ending can ruin a story.

fiender66

I made some informal tests on the performance with the new CP system (and the new passives and gear %'s). OFC taking into consideration that one is put way lower on the CP ladder (say, from 810+/810 to 810+/3600)

If you are among those that like a somehow harder overland you will be amply gratified,

Sevn

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Not every player's end goal is vet dungeons and trials. Some players are happy just doing the story on one or a string of alts. Or roleplaying. Or crafting. Or housing.

The player will decide how they want to play. That doesn't require the game to "push them to learn". And it certainly doesn't require them to be pushed by other players who think their way to play is the only way.

Bingo! Huge pet peeve of mine to hear combat gurus tell people they are playing the game wrong and should be focused on "getting gud" with the combat because that's what's important to them and should be the end all be all of eso for everyone.

You want an efficient dungeon run with players that can carry you, er keep up with you? Form your own group. You're that good but you can't carry a team in normals?

Losing players who aren't interested in how overland plays is no loss at all. It's not like they have any intention on paying for this new version of ESO. Besides they aren't going anywhere, if that better game already exists, why aren't they already playing it instead of beating this dead horse?

SilverBride

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Not every player's end goal is vet dungeons and trials. Some players are happy just doing the story on one or a string of alts. Or roleplaying. Or crafting. Or housing.

Maybe I just have higher standards for a game.

Maybe I just have higher standards for the players.

That they accept that not everyone plays like they do and no one way of playing is any more "right" than another.

ParaViking

We are not kidding our selves... ZOS is not going to implement any of this, but it is fun to discuss.

Pre One Tamriel they had a veteran plain that you went to at Lvl 50... The code is probably still there and would not be that hard to implement.

I don't think anything needs to be done with mechanics. Bump damage and health up 200-300%, maybe more, and see what happens. At this point I buff up, hit two skills, and swap bars and the boss is dead. How exciting is that!

Probably the easiest fix is what players have mentioned... Run no CP, Maybe only white crafted gear, no monster sets, and no potions. That is pretty what I do now, but it just seems so vanilla... ESO on steroids sounds like more fun!

I have a StamDK that I am playing with now that runs around naked punching stuff, and I am doing most all overland content with it. "Really!" Overland content is perfect where it is at...

It is funny as heck though... I actually die on occasion... I feel like a village idiot playing though.

Alurria

ParaViking wrote: »

We are not kidding our selves... ZOS is not going to implement any of this, but it is fun to discuss.

Pre One Tamriel they had a veteran plain that you went to at Lvl 50... The code is probably still there and would not be that hard to implement.

I don't think anything needs to be done with mechanics. Bump damage and health up 200-300%, maybe more, and see what happens. At this point I buff up, hit two skills, and swap bars and the boss is dead. How exciting is that!

Probably the easiest fix is what players have mentioned... Run no CP, Maybe only white crafted gear, no monster sets, and no potions. That is pretty what I do now, but it just seems so vanilla... ESO on steroids sounds like more fun!

I have a StamDK that I am playing with now that runs around naked punching stuff, and I am doing most all overland content with it. "Really!" Overland content is perfect where it is at...

It is funny as heck though... I actually die on occasion... I feel like a village idiot playing though.

It's really a shame you rushed to level out max and didn't realize it's not about the destination but the journey. This thread pops up in every game there has ever been made. There are those who want things harder because why challenge, but I suspect it's more of "I did it!" but I don't want people to catch up to me and be as gud as me. But that's my opinion. If this game bores people those people should maybe look elsewhere. Just sayin

zaria

I agree overland is way to easy, however I'm not sure I would select an veteran version even if it had benefits like more XP and better rewards as I tend to do overland for two reasons, skillponts and story.
I listen to the quests unless farming them on multiple alts and even then I do if long since last time,

However I want to get into an delve get the skyshard and out fast. Running to objective dropping AoE 40 meter before it to disengage the mobs, then do it, usually I do the boss to.

CP5

Alurria wrote: »

ParaViking wrote: »

We are not kidding our selves... ZOS is not going to implement any of this, but it is fun to discuss.

Pre One Tamriel they had a veteran plain that you went to at Lvl 50... The code is probably still there and would not be that hard to implement.

I don't think anything needs to be done with mechanics. Bump damage and health up 200-300%, maybe more, and see what happens. At this point I buff up, hit two skills, and swap bars and the boss is dead. How exciting is that!

Probably the easiest fix is what players have mentioned... Run no CP, Maybe only white crafted gear, no monster sets, and no potions. That is pretty what I do now, but it just seems so vanilla... ESO on steroids sounds like more fun!

I have a StamDK that I am playing with now that runs around naked punching stuff, and I am doing most all overland content with it. "Really!" Overland content is perfect where it is at...

It is funny as heck though... I actually die on occasion... I feel like a village idiot playing though.

It's really a shame you rushed to level out max and didn't realize it's not about the destination but the journey. This thread pops up in every game there has ever been made. There are those who want things harder because why challenge, but I suspect it's more of "I did it!" but I don't want people to catch up to me and be as gud as me. But that's my opinion. If this game bores people those people should maybe look elsewhere. Just sayin

My main was max level back when Wrothgar went live and due to being able to bank excess exp I have been above that line ever since, I didn't rush anything, but I guess from this perspective I should have known there were years worth of content coming out and intentionally throttled myself so I wouldn't have reached max level, is that it?

As for having other players catch up, new players won't catch up unless they either intentionally go out of their way into solo arenas on vet or drag down groups doing end game content because overland will never give them the chance to adequately improve. New players can play for hours and learn nothing with how simplistic and forgiving overland is.

ESO has a very fast paced and engaging combat system that I love, but like I said earlier, the ai treat it like a turn based game where they skip every other turn because overland presenting any kind of resistance or making players engage with more complex enemies than Mr. "runs backwards 20 feet before figuring out how to throw a knife". Overland is a let down of what the games potential is and a let down to new players ever getting a chance to explore all the game has to offer.

Seminolegirl1992

phantasmalD wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

I'm currently working on getting back into Skyrim for giggles because I had an itch to play it again- and I can guarantee if everything fell over pathetically like it does in ESO, it would not be fun *at all*.

You mean the game that lets you craft absurdly overpowered gear that allows you to one-shot anything even on legendary difficulty (including the final boss)? Which you have to actively ignore, aka 'gimp yourself' to preserve any semblance of challenge in a game that was actually heavily critized for being too casual?

What I'm trying to say is that Skyrim is not a very good example here.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

It's an rpg (role playing game).

Yes. And becoming stronger is a central part of an RPG. Becoming stronger = certain fights and enemies become less challenging.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You level up and get good gear and weapons and feel like a bad ar$3- why should you have to gimp yourself in a game to have immersive encounters

I think these are kinda contradictory statements. Like how can you feel like a bad A if everything is giving you just as much trouble at level 30 as they did at level 1.
Also, why is it not immersive to be stronger than someone else? The fact that you defeated them easily doesn't mean they are weak, you are just stronger.

CP5 wrote: »

Direfrost for example is infinitely harder when you try to keep an inexperienced player alive.

You mean that it poses a 'challenge'? 🤔
Funny that;

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is not the stats, it’s the mechanics.
While stats are in important factor that should not be dismissed, it is the mechanics that determine whether or not the fight is going to be engaging.

Quest fights have actually been becoming more nuanced tho, no? Been a while but I'm pretty sure the Elsweyr bosses had some pretty elaborate patterns.

Hmm. Perhaps Dragon Age then, or DOS2, but to be fair, most rpgs can be min maxed to hell. It just *seems* to me that encounters are more meaningful in those games, especially bosses.

Seminolegirl1992

CP5 wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

ParaViking wrote: »

We are not kidding our selves... ZOS is not going to implement any of this, but it is fun to discuss.

Pre One Tamriel they had a veteran plain that you went to at Lvl 50... The code is probably still there and would not be that hard to implement.

I don't think anything needs to be done with mechanics. Bump damage and health up 200-300%, maybe more, and see what happens. At this point I buff up, hit two skills, and swap bars and the boss is dead. How exciting is that!

Probably the easiest fix is what players have mentioned... Run no CP, Maybe only white crafted gear, no monster sets, and no potions. That is pretty what I do now, but it just seems so vanilla... ESO on steroids sounds like more fun!

I have a StamDK that I am playing with now that runs around naked punching stuff, and I am doing most all overland content with it. "Really!" Overland content is perfect where it is at...

It is funny as heck though... I actually die on occasion... I feel like a village idiot playing though.

It's really a shame you rushed to level out max and didn't realize it's not about the destination but the journey. This thread pops up in every game there has ever been made. There are those who want things harder because why challenge, but I suspect it's more of "I did it!" but I don't want people to catch up to me and be as gud as me. But that's my opinion. If this game bores people those people should maybe look elsewhere. Just sayin

My main was max level back when Wrothgar went live and due to being able to bank excess exp I have been above that line ever since, I didn't rush anything, but I guess from this perspective I should have known there were years worth of content coming out and intentionally throttled myself so I wouldn't have reached max level, is that it?

As for having other players catch up, new players won't catch up unless they either intentionally go out of their way into solo arenas on vet or drag down groups doing end game content because overland will never give them the chance to adequately improve. New players can play for hours and learn nothing with how simplistic and forgiving overland is.

ESO has a very fast paced and engaging combat system that I love, but like I said earlier, the ai treat it like a turn based game where they skip every other turn because overland presenting any kind of resistance or making players engage with more complex enemies than Mr. "runs backwards 20 feet before figuring out how to throw a knife". Overland is a let down of what the games potential is and a let down to new players ever getting a chance to explore all the game has to offer.

I'm with CP5 on this one. I never rushed through the game and I'm CP1270. Hell I haven't even played the quests in Skyrim and The Reach because I'm waiting to rppve them with my quest partner. And they're right- the game offers no way to improve unless another player teaches you. I was lucky to come across friends who pulled me aside and taught me about set gear, rotations, weaving, and mechanics. I never would have gotten better without that.

SilverBride

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

the game offers no way to improve unless another player teaches you.

The game does teach you. It gives you tips on what skills it recommends, and how to block and break crowd control among other things. It's not supposed to tell you everything about gear, rotations, weaving and mechanics. Those are things players are supposed to learn by playing, then share with each other. There are also web sites with builds, rotations and gear set ups that do all the work for you.

Making overland more difficult won't do a thing to help players improve. It would only frustrate a lot of players.

And let's not forget, we used to have veteran zones... they didn't work... that's why we now have One Tamriel. They are not going to revert back to a system that previously failed.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

the game offers no way to improve unless another player teaches you.

The game does teach you. It gives you tips on what skills it recommends, and how to block and break crowd control among other things. It's not supposed to tell you everything about gear, rotations, weaving and mechanics. Those are things players are supposed to learn by playing, then share with each other. There are also web sites with builds, rotations and gear set ups that do all the work for you.

Making overland more difficult won't do a thing to help players improve. It would only frustrate a lot of players.

And let's not forget, we used to have veteran zones... they didn't work... that's why we now have One Tamriel. They are not going to revert back to a system that previously failed.

Doesn't matter if they spoon feed you those during the tutorial, actual gameplay never encourages the use of these abilities and therefore players never use them. Just run any dungeon pug with a boss that has a 'bash this' or 'cc break this' mecanic and see how many players fail at it. The second I see someone interrupt an enemy I instantly know they have an idea of what they're doing and are leagues ahead of most other players.

And since overland mobs are so simplistic, never applying pressure in any meaningful way, why worry about say, casting a single dot skill then using another to damage your target while it ticks away? No joke, but I saw someone spamming volley on multiple different groups of enemies before, which resulted in 0 damage because the attack hadn't even started to land before they re-cast it.

Simplistic little text pop-ups, or the 'build advisor' don't actually teach people how to play, how to react to gameplay and engage with it. The number of players who stand still and just light attack and maybe cast one skill every 10 seconds is much higher than it has any right to be, and if those players were to try to enter a dungeon don't you think that would be a frustrating experience? Lulling people into bad habits with overland as is doesn't help new players, and making this an option would make it so people doing overland as is could go, "hey, I'm doing well today, why not try the more challenging mode?"

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Simplistic little text pop-ups, or the 'build advisor' don't actually teach people how to play, how to react to gameplay and engage with it.

Nor are they supposed to. They give you the basics. It's up to the players to learn by actually playing and sharing what they've learned with each other.

Overland contains the basic story of the game, and is set up so that all levels can enjoy it. Making it more difficult will not do one single thing to "teach" players anything. Learning comes from experience, not from struggling with mobs that are too difficult for the content.

If you want a challenge go run vet dungeons and trials. That is what you learned and geared up for. But expecting to take over the only part of the game that is there for everyone is not reasonable, and is not going to happen.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Simplistic little text pop-ups, or the 'build advisor' don't actually teach people how to play, how to react to gameplay and engage with it.

Nor are they supposed to. They give you the basics. It's up to the players to learn by actually playing and sharing what they've learned with each other.

Overland contains the basic story of the game, and is set up so that all levels can enjoy it. Making it more difficult will not do one single thing to "teach" players anything. Learning comes from experience, not from struggling with mobs that are too difficult for the content.

If you want a challenge go run vet dungeons and trials. That is what you learned and geared up for. But expecting to take over the only part of the game that is there for everyone is not reasonable, and is not going to happen.

"Take over", asking for the option isn't taking over, and asking for overland to be bothered to engage players with something more threatening than a cardboard cutout isn't demanding everyone to become a tryhard. The second a new player steps out of their questing to explore the rest of the game they are hit with the hard reality that they have no clue what to do, do you think that is healthy for the game at all?

The number of world boss fights I got to where half the players spend the fight as ghost is insane, and I could write novels worth of stories of all the times players did things so outlandish, but they never learned otherwise because overland content is hand holding with training wheels and everywhere else in the game expects you to engage, and the difficulty spike made because of that makes it hard for people to cross into other content and makes the stories and quest on the beginner side so mind numbing to participate in that the vast majority of content put out for the game isn't enjoyable for those who committed the crime of learning how to play the game.

Learning comes form experience, but you can't experience anything if every enemy you face has all the threat of a soggy cardboard box. I remember my original fight with Doshia, back in the first month of the games launch, remember having her turn into a harvester and chase me around, remember her healing to full while I was and having no clue how to win. But then I killed an orb, and she didn't heal, and it clicked, and when I beat her I learned all I needed to in order to fight harvesters in the future and have had no issue with any since because I learned. Now go onto youtube and look up Doshia fights, both from way back and then look up the "You have failed me, Doshia!" video as a nice before and after and tell me what the latter video could have taught a new player.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Learning comes form experience, but you can't experience anything if every enemy you face has all the threat of a soggy cardboard box.

You are only looking from the perspective of a CP 810 fully decked out in the best flavor of the month sets with veteran dungeon and trial experience. Of course the basic game isn't going to be a challenge for you. And it's not meant to be.

You cannot expect them to make every single aspect of the game challenging for end game players. Why do you think they call it end game? Dungeons and trials are the end game content you prepared for. That is where your challenge is.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Learning comes form experience, but you can't experience anything if every enemy you face has all the threat of a soggy cardboard box.

You are only looking from the perspective of a CP 810 fully decked out in the best flavor of the month sets with veteran dungeon and trial experience. Of course the basic game isn't going to be a challenge for you. And it's not meant to be.

You cannot expect them to make every single aspect of the game challenging for end game players. Why do you think they call it end game? Dungeons and trials are the end game content you prepared for. That is where your challenge is.

When I fought Doshia I was level 5 maybe, on my first character, whose combat plan up to that point was to alternate between poison arrow and mages wrath. Yet I can remember that fight to this day because I learned something, it was a memorable encounter, it was a fight that lived up to the hype of a daedric invasion, and despite the sudden spike in difficulty (having to fight 3 imps at once right before her, hard core I know) I still enjoyed it. I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more by having enemies that are worth facing, I would rather fight one group of memorable enemies than 10 groups of trash whose only purpose in life is to be stacked together and nuked down all at once.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more

If I want to use my brain I'll do the NY Times crossword puzzle. If I want to relax I'll play ESO. It is not your choice how I or anyone plays their characters.

The point you keep skirting around is that overland is for the story and for all players. The challenge is in veteran dungeons and trials... which you train for in normal dungeons and trials... not by doing overland story content. So that negates your arguement.

Overland has absulotely nothing to do with training for end game content. It's the story and it's for everyone.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more

If I want to use my brain I'll do the NY Times crossword puzzle. If I want to relax I'll play ESO. It is not your choice how I or anyone plays their characters.

The point you keep skirting around is that overland is for the story and for all players. The challenge is in veteran dungeons and trials... which you train for in normal dungeons and trials... not by doing overland story content. So that negates your arguement.

Overland has absulotely nothing to do with training for end game content. It's the story and it's for everyone.

Then where else are newer players supposed to go to learn the basics? You can't depend on random players finding it in their hearts to tutor others. As for myself, I enjoy some actual texture to the story since this is a video game and an interactive form of media.

If you don't want any resistance to the story progressing movies and books both provide that, and a game provides both, and while I understand many people want to enjoy these stories here like myself and don't want to face road blocks, that's fine, but I can't take any story ZOS weaves seriously when the 'big bad' is nothing more than a joke.

Myself, and others like me, want to be able to enjoy these stories, but the sense of tension, of an actual threat to be overcome, a feigned sense of accomplishment, nothing, when a player who knows how to play the game engages with these stories those elements fall flat and sap the stories of what potential they could have had.

I am all for people being able to just relax and enjoy the content, but you can't deny that overland is the first step for players entering the game and they deserve to see the game for what it is rather than the tame overland that doesn't represent the rest of it, and that experienced players want to enjoy the story but can't due to the fact that the story and gameplay are at odds.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Then where else are newer players supposed to go to learn the basics? You can't depend on random players finding it in their hearts to tutor others.

You join a guild. You make friends. You learn from each other, just like you do in any game you are new to. But that is not what this thread is about.

The OP thinks overland isn't challenging enough, and maybe for him and other veteran players it isn't. But as I've stated multiple times now it's not supposed to be.

Overland is the story and it's for everyone and it's fine just how it is.

I have nothing more to say to you about this.

Jeffrey530

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Learning comes form experience, but you can't experience anything if every enemy you face has all the threat of a soggy cardboard box.

You are only looking from the perspective of a CP 810 fully decked out in the best flavor of the month sets with veteran dungeon and trial experience. Of course the basic game isn't going to be a challenge for you. And it's not meant to be.

You cannot expect them to make every single aspect of the game challenging for end game players. Why do you think they call it end game? Dungeons and trials are the end game content you prepared for. That is where your challenge is.

When I fought Doshia I was level 5 maybe, on my first character, whose combat plan up to that point was to alternate between poison arrow and mages wrath. Yet I can remember that fight to this day because I learned something, it was a memorable encounter, it was a fight that lived up to the hype of a daedric invasion, and despite the sudden spike in difficulty (having to fight 3 imps at once right before her, hard core I know) I still enjoyed it. I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more by having enemies that are worth facing, I would rather fight one group of memorable enemies than 10 groups of trash whose only purpose in life is to be stacked together and nuked down all at once.

Doshia was definitely one of the reasons why Zos pushed for one Tamriel. I enjoyed that fight, but at that time so many people complained on the forum about those difficult fights and giving up the game.

Sevn

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

the game offers no way to improve unless another player teaches you.

The game does teach you. It gives you tips on what skills it recommends, and how to block and break crowd control among other things. It's not supposed to tell you everything about gear, rotations, weaving and mechanics. Those are things players are supposed to learn by playing, then share with each other. There are also web sites with builds, rotations and gear set ups that do all the work for you.

Making overland more difficult won't do a thing to help players improve. It would only frustrate a lot of players.

And let's not forget, we used to have veteran zones... they didn't work... that's why we now have One Tamriel. They are not going to revert back to a system that previously failed.

Just run any dungeon pug with a boss that has a 'bash this' or 'cc break this' mecanic and see how many players fail at it. The second I see someone interrupt an enemy I instantly know they have an idea of what they're doing and are leagues ahead of most other players.

And since overland mobs are so simplistic, never applying pressure in any meaningful way, why worry about say, casting a single dot skill then using another to damage your target while it ticks away?

This is such nonsense. You know why players don't bother bashing and interrupting enemies in normals? Because it's not necessary. I don't have to move out of red, I don't have to dodge or worry about mechanics. With a single other player they are super easy. It has nothing to do with how overland plays.

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more

If I want to use my brain I'll do the NY Times crossword puzzle. If I want to relax I'll play ESO. It is not your choice how I or anyone plays their characters.

The point you keep skirting around is that overland is for the story and for all players. The challenge is in veteran dungeons and trials... which you train for in normal dungeons and trials... not by doing overland story content. So that negates your arguement.

Overland has absulotely nothing to do with training for end game content. It's the story and it's for everyone.

Then where else are newer players supposed to go to learn the basics? You can't depend on random players finding it in their hearts to tutor others. As for myself, I enjoy some actual texture to the story since this is a video game and an interactive form of media.

Er, this is in fact an MMO. They can follow the same route players like myself took. When I was ready to get better at the content and I can't stress that enough, when I was ready, I joined a guild. I had been playing for a few years and I had heard all these horrible stories about pver's in dungeons and how harsh they were if you weren't meta. Some of this is true, but is dwarfed by the number of players who are more than willing to show you the ropes. I learned rotations, I was taught mechanics, etc. THAT'S where a new player goes who wants to improve. You join a guild of like minded individuals who want the same thing you want.

CP5

Sevn wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

the game offers no way to improve unless another player teaches you.

The game does teach you. It gives you tips on what skills it recommends, and how to block and break crowd control among other things. It's not supposed to tell you everything about gear, rotations, weaving and mechanics. Those are things players are supposed to learn by playing, then share with each other. There are also web sites with builds, rotations and gear set ups that do all the work for you.

Making overland more difficult won't do a thing to help players improve. It would only frustrate a lot of players.

And let's not forget, we used to have veteran zones... they didn't work... that's why we now have One Tamriel. They are not going to revert back to a system that previously failed.

Just run any dungeon pug with a boss that has a 'bash this' or 'cc break this' mecanic and see how many players fail at it. The second I see someone interrupt an enemy I instantly know they have an idea of what they're doing and are leagues ahead of most other players.

And since overland mobs are so simplistic, never applying pressure in any meaningful way, why worry about say, casting a single dot skill then using another to damage your target while it ticks away?

This is such nonsense. You know why players don't bother bashing and interrupting enemies in normals? Because it's not necessary. I don't have to move out of red, I don't have to dodge or worry about mechanics. With a single other player they are super easy. It has nothing to do with how overland plays.

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more

If I want to use my brain I'll do the NY Times crossword puzzle. If I want to relax I'll play ESO. It is not your choice how I or anyone plays their characters.

The point you keep skirting around is that overland is for the story and for all players. The challenge is in veteran dungeons and trials... which you train for in normal dungeons and trials... not by doing overland story content. So that negates your arguement.

Overland has absulotely nothing to do with training for end game content. It's the story and it's for everyone.

Then where else are newer players supposed to go to learn the basics? You can't depend on random players finding it in their hearts to tutor others. As for myself, I enjoy some actual texture to the story since this is a video game and an interactive form of media.

Er, this is in fact an MMO. They can follow the same route players like myself took. When I was ready to get better at the content and I can't stress that enough, when I was ready, I joined a guild. I had been playing for a few years and I had heard all these horrible stories about pver's in dungeons and how harsh they were if you weren't meta. Some of this is true, but is dwarfed by the number of players who are more than willing to show you the ropes. I learned rotations, I was taught mechanics, etc. THAT'S where a new player goes who wants to improve. You join a guild of like minded individuals who want the same thing you want.

You realize your first argument is exactly what I'm saying, right? Overland is so easy players never pick up these habits then when in content that requires those skills they don't have them? That is 100% the point. Overland making bad habits. This is why the dungeon finder is heavily plagued by players who don't have a clue, they didn't need one for questing so how would they get any here. New players deserve to be able to learn without the lottery of who they run into first when trying to step out of easy overland into, literally any other piece of the game.

Sevn

CP5 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

the game offers no way to improve unless another player teaches you.

The game does teach you. It gives you tips on what skills it recommends, and how to block and break crowd control among other things. It's not supposed to tell you everything about gear, rotations, weaving and mechanics. Those are things players are supposed to learn by playing, then share with each other. There are also web sites with builds, rotations and gear set ups that do all the work for you.

Making overland more difficult won't do a thing to help players improve. It would only frustrate a lot of players.

And let's not forget, we used to have veteran zones... they didn't work... that's why we now have One Tamriel. They are not going to revert back to a system that previously failed.

Just run any dungeon pug with a boss that has a 'bash this' or 'cc break this' mecanic and see how many players fail at it. The second I see someone interrupt an enemy I instantly know they have an idea of what they're doing and are leagues ahead of most other players.

And since overland mobs are so simplistic, never applying pressure in any meaningful way, why worry about say, casting a single dot skill then using another to damage your target while it ticks away?

This is such nonsense. You know why players don't bother bashing and interrupting enemies in normals? Because it's not necessary. I don't have to move out of red, I don't have to dodge or worry about mechanics. With a single other player they are super easy. It has nothing to do with how overland plays.

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I'm asking for the game to require people to use their brain a bit more

If I want to use my brain I'll do the NY Times crossword puzzle. If I want to relax I'll play ESO. It is not your choice how I or anyone plays their characters.

The point you keep skirting around is that overland is for the story and for all players. The challenge is in veteran dungeons and trials... which you train for in normal dungeons and trials... not by doing overland story content. So that negates your arguement.

Overland has absulotely nothing to do with training for end game content. It's the story and it's for everyone.

Then where else are newer players supposed to go to learn the basics? You can't depend on random players finding it in their hearts to tutor others. As for myself, I enjoy some actual texture to the story since this is a video game and an interactive form of media.

Er, this is in fact an MMO. They can follow the same route players like myself took. When I was ready to get better at the content and I can't stress that enough, when I was ready, I joined a guild. I had been playing for a few years and I had heard all these horrible stories about pver's in dungeons and how harsh they were if you weren't meta. Some of this is true, but is dwarfed by the number of players who are more than willing to show you the ropes. I learned rotations, I was taught mechanics, etc. THAT'S where a new player goes who wants to improve. You join a guild of like minded individuals who want the same thing you want.

You realize your first argument is exactly what I'm saying, right? Overland is so easy players never pick up these habits then when in content that requires those skills they don't have them? That is 100% the point. Overland making bad habits. This is why the dungeon finder is heavily plagued by players who don't have a clue, they didn't need one for questing so how would they get any here. New players deserve to be able to learn without the lottery of who they run into first when trying to step out of easy overland into, literally any other piece of the game.

No, that is not what I said. I said NORMAL DUNGEONS are so easy those skills aren't required at all.

Also, please stop insulting the players using the dungeon finder. You don't know any of these random strangers. They could play with a disability that impacts their hand eye coordination. They could have other medical conditions that result in poor performance by your standards. Let's see how well you perform with Rheumatoid arthritis.

My point is you are blindly blaming overland difficulty for the "failures" of complete strangers when in reality you haven't a clue as to why they are not up to your standards.

JTD

CP5 wrote: »

Learning comes form experience, but you can't experience anything if every enemy you face has all the threat of a soggy cardboard box. I remember my original fight with Doshia, back in the first month of the games launch, remember having her turn into a harvester and chase me around, remember her healing to full while I was and having no clue how to win. But then I killed an orb, and she didn't heal, and it clicked, and when I beat her I learned all I needed to in order to fight harvesters in the future and have had no issue with any since because I learned. Now go onto youtube and look up Doshia fights, both from way back and then look up the "You have failed me, Doshia!" video as a nice before and after and tell me what the latter video could have taught a new player.

This anecdote is where it is at. I remember and it was glorious. The feeling of 'clicking' with a mechanic and understanding it combined with being able to use and recognize is in future encounters was empowering.

What also didn't help was the way Tamriel unlimited scaled mobs (or players?). Overland doesn't prepare you for what is to come. The same that normal doesn't prepare you for veteran these days. Or veteran for HM for that matter.

Sevn

JTD wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Learning comes form experience, but you can't experience anything if every enemy you face has all the threat of a soggy cardboard box. I remember my original fight with Doshia, back in the first month of the games launch, remember having her turn into a harvester and chase me around, remember her healing to full while I was and having no clue how to win. But then I killed an orb, and she didn't heal, and it clicked, and when I beat her I learned all I needed to in order to fight harvesters in the future and have had no issue with any since because I learned. Now go onto youtube and look up Doshia fights, both from way back and then look up the "You have failed me, Doshia!" video as a nice before and after and tell me what the latter video could have taught a new player.

This anecdote is where it is at. I remember and it was glorious. The feeling of 'clicking' with a mechanic and understanding it combined with being able to use and recognize is in future encounters was empowering.

What also didn't help was the way Tamriel unlimited scaled mobs (or players?). Overland doesn't prepare you for what is to come. The same that normal doesn't prepare you for veteran these days. Or veteran for HM for that matter.

You know what you are right, Doshia is the perfect example. She was nerfed because the MAJORITY of the players complained. Unless you think it's a majority that wants to roll back to not being able to progress the story for days, weeks, months until you've grinded up your levels to move past a story roadblock.