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[IN PROGRESS] PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
XP Curve Adjusted - But Why?
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VoidCommander✭✭✭✭✭I just don't understand why high CP people even care that other people will be able to get to their level quicker. It doesn't take anything away from you. You'll still have a lead over other players believe it or not. The only thing you are losing is the veteran player feeling of entitlement. If you want to flaunt your greatness to your fellow player, and can't do it with you're CP anymore because CP 2000+ will now be "trivialized," use a badass title or something. Playing for that long you probably have a high PvP ranking right? Showing a grand overlord title is comparable to having an absurdly high CP. How about trifecta titles? I don't think anyone would assume you are a noob player if you have a God-Slayer title for example.
I remember when CP was still relatively young, and people would not trust people at the maximum 810 CP because it usually indicated that they farmed the Old Orsinium Public Dungeon (back when that was the highest xp rate) to max out their level, only to be next to worthless in dungeons because they didn't know the most basic mechanics. Having a high CP level hasn't, doesn't, and will never be my prime evaluation for a player's competence.5 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭VoidCommander wrote: »I just don't understand why high CP people even care that other people will be able to get to their level quicker. It doesn't take anything away from you. You'll still have a lead over other players believe it or not. The only thing you are losing is the veteran player feeling of entitlement. If you want to flaunt your greatness to your fellow player, and can't do it with you're CP anymore because CP 2000+ will now be "trivialized," use a badass title or something. Playing for that long you probably have a high PvP ranking right? Showing a grand overlord title is comparable to having an absurdly high CP. How about trifecta titles? I don't think anyone would assume you are a noob player if you have a God-Slayer title for example.
I remember when CP was still relatively young, and people would not trust people at the maximum 810 CP because it usually indicated that they farmed the Old Orsinium Public Dungeon (back when that was the highest xp rate) to max out their level, only to be next to worthless in dungeons because they didn't know the most basic mechanics. Having a high CP level hasn't, doesn't, and will never be my prime evaluation for a player's competence.
Kinda what I've been trying to tell here is that none of those titles/PvP ranks etc mean anything anymore given the amount of people running around with them - and I'd be more interested in things like showing off total achievement points, or total amount of item sets collected but lacking an inspect function and/or official armory page for characters that is not an option.
The only thing that isn't widespread and commonplace these days is a high CP number, I regularly go about my day & see multiple Godslayers, Tick-Tock Tormentors etc (and especially Grand Overlords, I farm those daily in BGs), but very rarely do I see anyone with 2k+ CPs
Old Orsinium didn't have the highest xp rate back then btw, Cracked Wood Cave in Cyrodiil did - and it had some of the best PvP this game has ever had, fighting over that grind spot, relogging on opposing faction characters to dispose of leechers etc.What I'm not happy with is that CPs will mean absolutely nothing when CP1800->3600 (so beyond the vertical power cap) takes less than half the time it does on Live and basically anyone can reach it, at which point there is no way to progress your character anymore and thus no reasons to really log in either, veterans of this game will be indistinguishable from newer players and there's nothing that makes people go "wow" when they see your character anymore, and the number next to your userID.
I don’t understand, why does it matter to you, how who differs from whom.
If it's all because it seems to you that your character will lose the wow effect, then you are slightly exaggerating the value of your lvl numbers for new players, because most people don't care .People are preoccupied with their own numbers and those of their friends. What can surprise and delight them is the outfits of other players, I sometimes see very beautifully selected motifs. But not the numbers next to your nicknames.
Because as a competitive player I play games to set myself apart from others, whether it's via the number next to my character name, the amount of kills in a BG (since there's no actual performance based leaderboard to compete on) or the amount of items collected (https://www.eso-armory.com/armory).
See how I have to link to an external 3rd party website just for anyone to even be aware how my item set collection looks like?
CP number is the only thing of value you can showcase in game, that's the sad truth. And it won't be worth anything soon.
You want to set yourself apart via the amount of your CP? LOL
...and what else is there? Please don't tell me to show some title that means absolutely nothing nowadays. I have plenty of "rare & hard to get" titles (from Count or Master Angler to Dro'Mathra Destroyer etc), have I ever gotten a "wow, nice title" whisper? No.
But I get whispers about the CP number almost daily.
You know me, I'm a very competitive minded person - I would much rather show that #1 ranked arena player next to my name but is that an option? No. We don't even have arenas. We don't even have proper BG MMR, or a way to see it in game (let alone showcase it).
Do I have anything to show for for having farmed 5739 set items? No.
The only thing that you can showcase and that does hold some meaning is a high CP number. If everyone is at the same number within a year, it no longer means anything and the game has nothing left to distinguish a 7 year veteran of the game from someone who started one year ago. That's wrong.Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 12:14AM1 -
KittyHazWares✭✭✭Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Xbox One NA0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 12:59AM0 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »What I understand from all this is:
Decimus doesn't care if the CP effective cap is relatively easy to obtain (1800 or so).
Decimus believes a high CP count works as a sort of prestige mark.
The CP points that seem to work effectively towards that prestige mark are those above the effective cap (810 now, apparently 1800 next patch).
He is upset that as a result of the CP rework, getting CP points above the effective cap (or prestige CP) is now much easier than it was before.
As a result, it will be easier for players to catch up to CP levels above the effective cap. Since there will be more players on prestige CP levels, whatever prestige CP standing people had before is now eroded, because more people will join their ranks.
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I can see why people find the idea that a CP grind can somehow bestow prestige on people to be completely absurd. It is rare in western MMOs, and I consider it to be absolutely garbage game design. There are other ways to progress characters in meaningul ways. However, that kind of progression system is crazy popular in asian MMOs, and I wouldn't blame people for liking that kind of stuff, even if I don't.
The only counter argument I've read here against what Decimus proposes is that those CP points above the hard cap, which are now useless, will probably turn into effective CP points in future game updates.
Exactly, thank you.
And I would much prefer to have other forms of "prestige" in game trust me, like ranked arena leaderboards or performance based PvP MMR in BGs but none of those exist so the only thing that's left is the big number next to your character name.
It's the only visible thing left separating a noob from someone who has put in a lot of time and effort into the game.
That's the sad state we're in.
There are still skins, titles, and achievements... I am a lot more impressed when I see someone with a hard to get title than I am with the CP number. The CP just means they were grinding a lot.
Well, that's you - I've seen enough Godslayers & Tick-Tock Tormentors to lose interest when one with the title runs by.
A "hard to get" title these days really is just a matter of how much gold you spend and what you spend it on.
Getting to 3600 CP is still easier than getting those titles. It just means you spent time killing a bunch of things over and over and over and over...
The only reason there aren't a bunch of people running around with 3600 CP now is that there is no value to it. If there was never a cap there would be a lot more people running around with 3600 CP, because all it takes is time not skill.
You do realize that it is faster to grind 250m gold (for a carry run) by just doing writs on 18 characters daily than it is to grind 3600CPs?
I wouldn't say doing writs is any harder than killing mobs (or doing Master Writs, much faster way of gaining XP).
The reason there isn't more 3600 CPs is because it is a colossal amount of effort, even if you don't have to do anything difficult. Skill is not a factor here, nor should it be - if you want skill based "flexes" ESO is not the right game, lacking proper MMR, 2v2 arenas etc etc.
The entire point of high CP is to say "hey, I'm probably more experienced in this game than you/have spent more time in it" not to say "I'm better than you".So not only was this thread completely ignored, they made the problem EVEN WORSE by doing the complete opposite:Adjusted the Champion Point XP curve to speed up the rate you gain CP levels up to 1800 instead of 1020. This was done to help alleviate some of the concerns with the time required to chase the current vertical progression cap.
Note this doesn’t mean we will not make further adjustments to the vertical progression in a future update; we will be closely monitoring this through Update 29’s launch.
So we went down from 1 705 483 xp per Champion Point at 2159 to 1 365 760 xp, and now it's a trivial 798 149 xp.
Doesn't ZOS understand that higher CP players do not want their progression trivialized? It's all well and good to make sure the vertical progression is easy to cap out, but after vertical progression is over there's NO NEED to make rest of the CPs A JOKE to get. That just a big FU to everyone puts in a lot of hours on the game and serves no purpose beyond that.
There'll be CP3600s everywhere with the new scaling and no one with 3600 can feel like they accomplished something most players didn't.
So here's two ways on how you can fix this @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam :- Easy leveling until vertical progression is capped out, then scale it up exponentially so that the amount of XP required from end of vertical progression to 3600 is the same as it is now on Live.
- Further reduce the cost of passives, increase the cost of slottables - 12 slottables & all passives reached at 1200 CPs/whatever -> keep XP curve the same as it is on Live.
It's very easy to fix this without pissing off the players who have put in the biggest time investments into this game.
Idk why but your ignored cries about this just make me happy. Idk man, I'm just sick of players who think about new players like that. Even worse when they clearly know it's just a worthless number.
I have 2 accounts maxed (one nearing 2k CP) and I'm extremely Happy, especially for the low levels. CP should be the last thing in this game anyone should care about, especially now that it will be required.
Think about new players like what? Literally nothing about my post concerns new players, because a new player wouldn't be at 2k+ CP right now and definitely wouldn't/shouldn't be thinking beyond vertical progression.
Maybe you should read over the original post again, for the 67th time I'm all for new players being able to reach the vertical progression fast (in fact they should reach it even faster, at around 1200 CPs).
Do everyone a favor and read before commenting.
But it does. Everyone recieves some kind of benefits from having the CP cap. And I'm willing to bet endgame groups of players will put pressure on newer players for having low CP as well regardless of real functionality.
And idk... It's the tone too. Maybe... Just maybe...
No, it doesn't - unless your definition of "benefits" is not having to respec to change passives.
If an "endgame group" (funny that a "new player" should concern themselves with that) wants you to have more than the vertical cap in CPs they're probably being led by someone who doesn't understand how the system works, and I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't understand the CP system to understand game mechanics... you'll probably do yourself a favor by not joining that "endgame group".
Also I don't appreciate any insinuations about my tone towards new players. I answer questions from new players like a full time phone operator and help them learn the ins & outs of this game, what have you ever done?
I'm noticing a tone towards anyone who doesn't play this game just casually.
So why the hints of hostility and defensiveness? Honestly... I've done the same as you whenever I could. And my apologies, I must have misread a bunch of stuff in your post. I saw it now. But still...
Like, I understand you're mad, just not why. You've explained it as if it mattered and set you or others with high CP apart. Why does that realistically matter? Just to allow showing off?0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »What I understand from all this is:
Decimus doesn't care if the CP effective cap is relatively easy to obtain (1800 or so).
Decimus believes a high CP count works as a sort of prestige mark.
The CP points that seem to work effectively towards that prestige mark are those above the effective cap (810 now, apparently 1800 next patch).
He is upset that as a result of the CP rework, getting CP points above the effective cap (or prestige CP) is now much easier than it was before.
As a result, it will be easier for players to catch up to CP levels above the effective cap. Since there will be more players on prestige CP levels, whatever prestige CP standing people had before is now eroded, because more people will join their ranks.
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I can see why people find the idea that a CP grind can somehow bestow prestige on people to be completely absurd. It is rare in western MMOs, and I consider it to be absolutely garbage game design. There are other ways to progress characters in meaningul ways. However, that kind of progression system is crazy popular in asian MMOs, and I wouldn't blame people for liking that kind of stuff, even if I don't.
The only counter argument I've read here against what Decimus proposes is that those CP points above the hard cap, which are now useless, will probably turn into effective CP points in future game updates.
Exactly, thank you.
And I would much prefer to have other forms of "prestige" in game trust me, like ranked arena leaderboards or performance based PvP MMR in BGs but none of those exist so the only thing that's left is the big number next to your character name.
It's the only visible thing left separating a noob from someone who has put in a lot of time and effort into the game.
That's the sad state we're in.
There are still skins, titles, and achievements... I am a lot more impressed when I see someone with a hard to get title than I am with the CP number. The CP just means they were grinding a lot.
Well, that's you - I've seen enough Godslayers & Tick-Tock Tormentors to lose interest when one with the title runs by.
A "hard to get" title these days really is just a matter of how much gold you spend and what you spend it on.
Getting to 3600 CP is still easier than getting those titles. It just means you spent time killing a bunch of things over and over and over and over...
The only reason there aren't a bunch of people running around with 3600 CP now is that there is no value to it. If there was never a cap there would be a lot more people running around with 3600 CP, because all it takes is time not skill.
You do realize that it is faster to grind 250m gold (for a carry run) by just doing writs on 18 characters daily than it is to grind 3600CPs?
I wouldn't say doing writs is any harder than killing mobs (or doing Master Writs, much faster way of gaining XP).
The reason there isn't more 3600 CPs is because it is a colossal amount of effort, even if you don't have to do anything difficult. Skill is not a factor here, nor should it be - if you want skill based "flexes" ESO is not the right game, lacking proper MMR, 2v2 arenas etc etc.
The entire point of high CP is to say "hey, I'm probably more experienced in this game than you/have spent more time in it" not to say "I'm better than you".So not only was this thread completely ignored, they made the problem EVEN WORSE by doing the complete opposite:Adjusted the Champion Point XP curve to speed up the rate you gain CP levels up to 1800 instead of 1020. This was done to help alleviate some of the concerns with the time required to chase the current vertical progression cap.
Note this doesn’t mean we will not make further adjustments to the vertical progression in a future update; we will be closely monitoring this through Update 29’s launch.
So we went down from 1 705 483 xp per Champion Point at 2159 to 1 365 760 xp, and now it's a trivial 798 149 xp.
Doesn't ZOS understand that higher CP players do not want their progression trivialized? It's all well and good to make sure the vertical progression is easy to cap out, but after vertical progression is over there's NO NEED to make rest of the CPs A JOKE to get. That just a big FU to everyone puts in a lot of hours on the game and serves no purpose beyond that.
There'll be CP3600s everywhere with the new scaling and no one with 3600 can feel like they accomplished something most players didn't.
So here's two ways on how you can fix this @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam :- Easy leveling until vertical progression is capped out, then scale it up exponentially so that the amount of XP required from end of vertical progression to 3600 is the same as it is now on Live.
- Further reduce the cost of passives, increase the cost of slottables - 12 slottables & all passives reached at 1200 CPs/whatever -> keep XP curve the same as it is on Live.
It's very easy to fix this without pissing off the players who have put in the biggest time investments into this game.
Idk why but your ignored cries about this just make me happy. Idk man, I'm just sick of players who think about new players like that. Even worse when they clearly know it's just a worthless number.
I have 2 accounts maxed (one nearing 2k CP) and I'm extremely Happy, especially for the low levels. CP should be the last thing in this game anyone should care about, especially now that it will be required.
Think about new players like what? Literally nothing about my post concerns new players, because a new player wouldn't be at 2k+ CP right now and definitely wouldn't/shouldn't be thinking beyond vertical progression.
Maybe you should read over the original post again, for the 67th time I'm all for new players being able to reach the vertical progression fast (in fact they should reach it even faster, at around 1200 CPs).
Do everyone a favor and read before commenting.
But it does. Everyone recieves some kind of benefits from having the CP cap. And I'm willing to bet endgame groups of players will put pressure on newer players for having low CP as well regardless of real functionality.
And idk... It's the tone too. Maybe... Just maybe...
No, it doesn't - unless your definition of "benefits" is not having to respec to change passives.
If an "endgame group" (funny that a "new player" should concern themselves with that) wants you to have more than the vertical cap in CPs they're probably being led by someone who doesn't understand how the system works, and I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't understand the CP system to understand game mechanics... you'll probably do yourself a favor by not joining that "endgame group".
Also I don't appreciate any insinuations about my tone towards new players. I answer questions from new players like a full time phone operator and help them learn the ins & outs of this game, what have you ever done?
I'm noticing a tone towards anyone who doesn't play this game just casually.
So why the hints of hostility and defensiveness? Honestly... I've done the same as you whenever I could. And my apologies, I must have misread a bunch of stuff in your post. I saw it now. But still...
Like, I understand you're mad, just not why. You've explained it as if it mattered and set you or others with high CP apart. Why does that realistically matter? Just to allow showing off?
Pretty much, yes: it's no different than grinding mounts in another game to show off in an armory page/when people inspect your character - ESO doesn't have any of that, but it does still have the number next to your character atleast. CP number.
Some people like showing off what they've accomplished in game, that's why you have titles (which don't really matter bc of how many people there are with even the "most difficult to get" titles in game) etc in the first place. How many times have you seen someone in game with 3600 CPs? I've played the game 7 years and only once did I see a player in a BG with 3600 CPs (though I do know of atleast two other players with this amount of CPs).
Godslayer? Tick-Tock Tormentor? I see this daily.
Now, if you could inspect someone & see 44,5k achievement points *that* might be impressive, but ESO doesn't have an inspect function.
Grand Overlord is common place (a good example of what the 3600 CP will mean in game with the new XP values: nothing).
There's no visible BG MMR rating, let alone something you can show other players.
CPs matter because nothing else does/is visible, it's the only way to showcase that you've been around for a while and aren't a newbie.Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 1:53AM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭@Decimus
While I don't necessarily personally place the same importance or "prestige" on CP number in the way you have described, I am trying to approach my comment keeping in mind that clearly others do, such as yourself (as me simply disagreeing on the "meaning" of CP isn't really really going to get us anywhere as we are all entitled to our own personal opinions/view of them).
Firstly, I would argue that CP still does have functional value beyond the vertical cap, and for this reason it is advantageous that the XP required for CP beyond the vertical cap also be lowered, as it makes this value more accessible to more players, which I believe to be a good thing. The sort of value I mean is allowing players to actually make use of the horizontal progression aspect to allow individual characters to be multidisciplined, which is an important factor to many players. For example, many players might have one or a couple of "mains" and if possible they like to complete all types of content on that character. However, the different types of content they want to do will likely require different champion bar setups for optimal play, which obviously then means they need to unlock multiple slottable stars beyond 4 and thus require more CP past the vertical progression limit. If they are not past that point the only way to achieve this would be paying to respec CP. In my personal case, I look forward to being able to use the same characters in use in PvP to also do PvE content as well, and because I like to optimise I will want different champion bar setups for these two tasks and as such I will need to spend CP in more than four slottable stars so I can freely swap between setups, thus meaning I need to get CP well past the vertical cap and into the horizontal progression range. Having a lower xp requirement for CP means this is more accessible to me, and other players in similar scenarios, and as such I view it as a good thing. This was the whole point of ZOS making a horizontal progression area - for players to make use of it in this way.
I do admit that an alternative way of achieving this effect would be to lower the vertical progression cap as you have suggested, but I think it unlikely that ZOS is going to do that much more than they already have as they have already made the "easy" changes to that effect and any further changes start requiring significant structural redesign of the system, which I think they are unlikely to do at this point.
Secondly, I don't really see how lowering the xp requirements lowers your potential to use CP as a sign of prestige. It simply shifts the goal posts as to what CP level can be considered prestigious. This is no different to what had happened in the past, say from veteran levels when a high VR could have been the same sign of prestige, which then became equivalent to CP150-160. Likewise a few years ago say 1200-1500CP may have been the level with few players at it and hence prestigious. As I see it, using CP as a sign of prestige isn't based on the absolute number of CP you have, rather its a relative effect based on how many players have achieved that amount of CP currently. And here's the thing, you will most likely remain in that rarefied air where only a few players have achieved that amount of CP, as I am sure being the competitive player that you are, you will continue to gain XP and CP into the future.
So sure, a new player who starts this update might have an easier time getting to CP2200 or so than you did. But in the time it takes them to do that, you will also have been playing and gaining xp and CP. And under the new system you will have got to a higher CP level than you would have with the previous XP rate. It would have taken that new player around 750mil XP to get to CP2200 under the new xp curve. Assuming you put in a similar amount of effort and also got around 750mil more xp to add to your existing CP level you would now be in the order of CP3000. And that level around CP3000 will likely still have only have very few players. So the prestige level of CP will still exist and it will simply have shifted up, like it has done in the past. For comparison, if we kept the existing CP1.0 xp curve, that same 750mil xp would instead get a new player to CP1430ish. Obviously this is lower, but likewise so is the amount you would have increased by gaining your extra 750mil from your current CP, as it would only get you to around CP2500. Yes the gap in absolute CP numbers is slightly greater (a difference of a bit over 1000CP vs 800CP under the new curve), but the key thing is that the gap still exists, and as long as it does so should the perception of prestige.
This only fails to be the case under two cases.
1) You stop putting in effort and no longer increase your CP and hence drop out of the values of CP considered prestigious (as they have increased). In this specific case I think this is unlikely given the type of player you are. Also, this case would always happen anyway regardless of the xp curve, the only thing that happens is how quickly it would occur.
2) You hit the hard cap of CP3600 and hence no longer have the ability to progress so cannot maintain your CP lead. This can simply be addressed by outright removing the cap on earnable CP (while still keeping the spendable limit at 3600, although this could increase in the future if/when they add more stars to spend CP on). With the new system, there is no need for the earnable limit to exist, as the CP2.0 system can potentially be infinitely expanded upon, unlike the CP1.0 system which couldn't be expanded so passing 3600 was pointless. This is the change I would push for in your case to ensure the prestige effect remains indefinitely.
So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 17, 2021 2:00AM3 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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I say it depend on the content you do, trials don't give much xp neither do PvP exception might be battlegrounds.KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Pledges and more so random dungeons give more, think random BG give the same.
So some who runs BG on multiple alts could rank up a lot of xp while some doing progression in trials falls behind.
However some with high cp will still be ahead, others will not catch up unless they gain xp faster.
Now the downside of the previous cp cap of 1020 is that you need an decade to reach 3600.
You would see an explosion of bad behavior like random normal farming and causal boting.
And its not like ZoS would ban most of their wales.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Charon_on_Vacation✭✭✭✭KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.
i think the disconnect between you and everyone else is, that usually, people like to compare skill instead of time.
saying you are 80 years old is not something people will take as a great achievement.
saying you were the world best football player is an achievement.
so merely spending time doing something, which we all do, because we only have 24 hours in a day, is not related to skill.
saying you spend 4 hours a day more in eso, while someone spend 4 hours more doing something else is nothing to show off with.
that is why people don't understand your argument about showing off.
all you did was spending your time in a different way, which might very well be even easier than spending your time doing something else.
4 hours grinding in comparison to 4 hours of hard labour or something like that, just as an example.3 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).
Don't worry, I read through your entire post. Having horizontal power that is difficult to get is not a flaw, it's how it should work - sure it's probably something you want to get to avoid respecs, but at the same time it doesn't determine the outcome in a PvE or PvP encounter. I.e. appropriate reward for players who put in more time, though personally I don't care too much about it & would actually prefer not getting anything but having CPs that mean something.
...which brings me to my second point: to kinda put things into perspective, doing pledges & rnd on 3-4 characters every day and writs on 18 nets me around 2m experience right now. Not grinding, rarely using xp scrolls (only ones that you get for free from daily rewards). 2 million experience a day. And I've been playing for 7 years.
The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
Under the previous system it would've taken well over 2 years for a "new" player to reach the cap, starting from 0.
I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Yes, they could avoid this by allowing us to earn CPs beyond 3600 like you mention - but are they going to do that? I've seen no indication they care about the more hardcore player base at all so my hopes aren't high.
It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.
i think the disconnect between you and everyone else is, that usually, people like to compare skill instead of time.
saying you are 80 years old is not something people will take as a great achievement.
saying you were the world best football player is an achievement.
so merely spending time doing something, which we all do, because we only have 24 hours in a day, is not related to skill.
saying you spend 4 hours a day more in eso, while someone spend 4 hours more doing something else is nothing to show off with.
that is why people don't understand your argument about showing off.
all you did was spending your time in a different way, which might very well be even easier than spending your time doing something else.
4 hours grinding in comparison to 4 hours of hard labour or something like that, just as an example.
No you're wrong. People do like to compare time spent - for example: a very well known Twitch streamer used to stream "mount offs" in another game where people would compete over who had farmed the most mounts in the game. Someone would get on a mount and if people didn't have it they'd be eliminated.
Farming mounts in that game was all about time spent doing easy repetitive content and hoping for a rare drop.
This is just one of many examples outside ESO I could bring up.
If you want a closer example, fishing in ESO is all about time spent & there's an achievement for collecting all fish in game and a title that goes along with it.
And yes, saying you're 80 years old (well, depending on where you live & general life expectancy there I guess) isn't an achievement - but saying that you're 120 sure would be. So again, wrong.
Also, I will again bring up that there's nothing "skill oriented" you can compare in ESO. Can people see and compare your BG MMR? No. Is the BG MMR even performance based? No, it's based on total score accumulated irrespective of individual performance. Do we have 2v2 arenas with leaderboards? No. Can you show off how many duels you've won? No. Can you showcase how many world first PvE trial clears you have? No.
So again, the only thing we can showcase is a "how much time I've spent in game" number next to your character name.Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 2:32AM0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
I mean sure, if you have literally nothing else to do with your life or time than play ESO, you probably could "grind 6 million xp a day".I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Who are you to say what is "trivially easy" or not, though? You think "grinding 6 million xp a day" is ~trivially~ easy. And yes, it's going to be easier for you to get to 3600 regardless of what the XP is because you're starting so much closer. Everyone else shouldn't be punished with a painful CP grind just because you, personally, think something is easy because you can "grind 6 million xp a day" therefore everyone else should also be able to "grind 6 million xp a day".
Goals should be achievable and requiring someone to grind XP like it's their full time job for years to get to 3600CP is insanely ridiculous.
If that's what it would require people wouldn't play the game to start with. Or they'd stop playing entirely and the game would die and then it wouldn't matter how many XP it takes to get to 3600 because you'd have to start all over in a new MMO.It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.
Where is the "fiasco" though? You're literally the only person who thinks it's a "fiasco". Otherwise there would be rafts of people agreeing with you that you should be required to do an epic grind of boring skyreach runs to get to 3600 otherwise it doesn't mean anything.
And there just... isn't.2 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
Thanks for taking the time, it got longer than I expected, as will this probably.ExistingRug61 wrote: »So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).
Don't worry, I read through your entire post. Having horizontal power that is difficult to get is not a flaw, it's how it should work - sure it's probably something you want to get to avoid respecs, but at the same time it doesn't determine the outcome in a PvE or PvP encounter. I.e. appropriate reward for players who put in more time, though personally I don't care too much about it & would actually prefer not getting anything but having CPs that mean something.
...which brings me to my second point: to kinda put things into perspective, doing pledges & rnd on 3-4 characters every day and writs on 18 nets me around 2m experience right now. Not grinding, rarely using xp scrolls (only ones that you get for free from daily rewards). 2 million experience a day. And I've been playing for 7 years.
The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
Under the previous system it would've taken well over 2 years for a "new" player to reach the cap, starting from 0.
I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Yes, they could avoid this by allowing us to earn CPs beyond 3600 like you mention - but are they going to do that? I've seen no indication they care about the more hardcore player base at all so my hopes aren't high.
It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.
Having horizontal progression be hard to get is fine, but I would view it that under the old xp curve it was too hard - given that the primary purpose of the horizontal progression was opening up options or quality of life. To me, the point of the new CP system is that it get used. Having the horizontal progression only available to the most hardcore players doesn't achieve this. Not that I don't think it should require some effort - it needs to be a middle ground and still needs a reasonable level of work.
I think there is a bit of a disconnect between us resulting from the changing function of CP. In CP1.0, everything passed CP810 wasn't really doing anything, it was basically just a "number" reward for putting in time, with the slight potential it might be worth something in the future. Now with CP2.0, suddenly everything up to CP3600 is immediately potentially useful. ZOS have redefined its meaning - It isn't just a number anymore. While the new functions may not be useful to everyone (and it sounds like you fall in that camp) and may not decide the outcome in PvP or PvE , that horizontal progression has use for other players and those players will want to be able to access it. Making it arbitrarily hard to get just to preserve it for the players who may only care about it as a number doesn't seem to gel with the intention of the new system. Why go to all the effort of making all those options otherwise? Which I understand is unfortunate for those players who want such a number but I guess that was a tradeoff to be decided by ZOS on the purpose of the new system.
And I dunno about CP3600 being that common. In a previous post you described that you get whispers complimenting you on your current CP level, which in the OP shows as CP2159.
This suggests to me that CP2159 and up is quite a rare level of CP.
Given you earned this under CP1.0 this would have required approx 1.8 bil XP. (I know it probably was more than this due to previous changes in the CP cap, plus the transition from vet to CP, but I can't estimate this)
Thus it follows that players who have currently earned 1.8bil xp or more are quite rare.
So given that even under the lower xp curve, given that CP3600 requires approx 2.2bil XP, this would imply that under the new system CP3600 will still be rare, even in a year or so.
As such I think CP3600 will still be quite rare, at least for a while (several years).
You're right that there hasn't been any indication that they are going to remove the cap beyond the passing comment in the stream that the system "could" be expanded in the future. And I would agree that the whole CP change appears targeted to more for newer/casual/mid players than veteran players, but this appears to be ZOS's intention. I am not sure if it is that ZOS don't care about the hardcore/veteran players - likely its just they are unlikely to make a change to suit hardcore/veteran players when it comes at the expense of newer/casual players. Re-increasing the XP curve is such a suggestion. I don't think ZOS have the appetite for this sort of thing. Thus I think that any suggestion you make to try to preserve something for veteran players is more likely to be heard or acted upon (still probably unlikely if I am being realistic though) is if it does not negatively affect new or casual players.
Hence my suggestion of removing the earnable cap - this was the only thing I could think of to this affect. While still unlikely, I think that sort of a change has a bit more likelihood of actually happening than an alternate change (like re-increasing xp required) that comes at the expense of new/casual players.
The only other thing would be some other system of competitive ranking or other similar thing that players could display - this is an area that the game does appear to be lacking. I won't pretend to know what this could be though.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 17, 2021 3:37AM0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
I mean sure, if you have literally nothing else to do with your life or time than play ESO, you probably could "grind 6 million xp a day".I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Who are you to say what is "trivially easy" or not, though? You think "grinding 6 million xp a day" is ~trivially~ easy. And yes, it's going to be easier for you to get to 3600 regardless of what the XP is because you're starting so much closer. Everyone else shouldn't be punished with a painful CP grind just because you, personally, think something is easy because you can "grind 6 million xp a day" therefore everyone else should also be able to "grind 6 million xp a day".
Goals should be achievable and requiring someone to grind XP like it's their full time job for years to get to 3600CP is insanely ridiculous.
If that's what it would require people wouldn't play the game to start with. Or they'd stop playing entirely and the game would die and then it wouldn't matter how many XP it takes to get to 3600 because you'd have to start all over in a new MMO.
There are metrics to determine what is trivially easy and what isn't. Grand Overlord is trivially easy, just look at how many there are. If achieving CP3600 will be about as easy as grinding 64m AP, it is going to lose its value.
And you still do not need 3600 CPs as a casual player so that's just a false premise to begin with.
It's like saying "I'm going to quit X MMO because I can't get BiS gear immediately as a new player".
Except in ESO's case we're not even talking about raw power.
Ridiculous, entitled even.It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.
Where is the "fiasco" though? You're literally the only person who thinks it's a "fiasco". Otherwise there would be rafts of people agreeing with you that you should be required to do an epic grind of boring skyreach runs to get to 3600 otherwise it doesn't mean anything.
And there just... isn't.
Oh for sure I'll be in the minority, after all there's not many people in the upper CP range who are going to be negatively affected, while there are plenty of more casual players out there in lower CP ranges.
The thing is, casuals don't really understand player retention (I mean, clearly - responses in this thread just reaffirm this belief of mine) as they're fixated on short term goals & player retention is pretty important for maintaining a healthy MMO with a competitive scene (whether PvP or PvE).Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 4:03AM0 -
Charon_on_Vacation✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).
Don't worry, I read through your entire post. Having horizontal power that is difficult to get is not a flaw, it's how it should work - sure it's probably something you want to get to avoid respecs, but at the same time it doesn't determine the outcome in a PvE or PvP encounter. I.e. appropriate reward for players who put in more time, though personally I don't care too much about it & would actually prefer not getting anything but having CPs that mean something.
...which brings me to my second point: to kinda put things into perspective, doing pledges & rnd on 3-4 characters every day and writs on 18 nets me around 2m experience right now. Not grinding, rarely using xp scrolls (only ones that you get for free from daily rewards). 2 million experience a day. And I've been playing for 7 years.
The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
Under the previous system it would've taken well over 2 years for a "new" player to reach the cap, starting from 0.
I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Yes, they could avoid this by allowing us to earn CPs beyond 3600 like you mention - but are they going to do that? I've seen no indication they care about the more hardcore player base at all so my hopes aren't high.
It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.
i think the disconnect between you and everyone else is, that usually, people like to compare skill instead of time.
saying you are 80 years old is not something people will take as a great achievement.
saying you were the world best football player is an achievement.
so merely spending time doing something, which we all do, because we only have 24 hours in a day, is not related to skill.
saying you spend 4 hours a day more in eso, while someone spend 4 hours more doing something else is nothing to show off with.
that is why people don't understand your argument about showing off.
all you did was spending your time in a different way, which might very well be even easier than spending your time doing something else.
4 hours grinding in comparison to 4 hours of hard labour or something like that, just as an example.
No you're wrong. People do like to compare time spent - for example: a very well known Twitch streamer used to stream "mount offs" in another game where people would compete over who had farmed the most mounts in the game. Someone would get on a mount and if people didn't have it they'd be eliminated.
Farming mounts in that game was all about time spent doing easy repetitive content and hoping for a rare drop.
This is just one of many examples outside ESO I could bring up.
If you want a closer example, fishing in ESO is all about time spent & there's an achievement for collecting all fish in game and a title that goes along with it.
And yes, saying you're 80 years old (well, depending on where you live & general life expectancy there I guess) isn't an achievement - but saying that you're 120 sure would be. So again, wrong.
Also, I will again bring up that there's nothing "skill oriented" you can compare in ESO. Can people see and compare your BG MMR? No. Is the BG MMR even performance based? No, it's based on total score accumulated irrespective of individual performance. Do we have 2v2 arenas with leaderboards? No. Can you show off how many duels you've won? No. Can you showcase how many world first PvE trial clears you have? No.
So again, the only thing we can showcase is a "how much time I've spent in game" number next to your character name.
of course there are ways to compare your skill in game.
there are several achievements that require a certain amount of skill, and if that person has skill or not can easily be seen by playing with that person or not.
if you want some kind of evidence outside of that, easy. tournaments are streamed or on yt. same goes for world first.
people in the scene usually know who you are, if you are part of it.
your argument about buying stuff is also quite flawed.
cp farming is sold much more and a lot easier than stuff like that.
mount contest often involves mounts that are earned by skill. if it would be just about time, it would be a /played contest, but it is not. it is a MOUNT contest, not a TIME contest.
achieving godslayer and getting the mount is something you can be proud of.
do you have it? are you skillful enough?
if so, good job!
if you were just killing mobs outside of a trial, thats not so impressive..
grinding cp, which i did myself, really isn't an achievement.
spending time is just no good metric to use for achievements.
just look at real life. who's recognized? people that play football for twenty years in their hometown team or players that are in the world cup?
the age thing is also wrong, especially if you didn't contribute to it.
just because you get an achievement for spending time in game, like fishing, doesn't mean its valuable.
you just don't seem to understand what the majority is telling you.
cp are not worth anything but time spend, which is no achievement in itself and therefor there's no need to try to make it something valuable.
telling someone "i spend 2 out of 24 hours of my day on the toilet." is an interesting information, but no achievement.
that is what you don't seem to understand.
you really can try to make breathing for the last 24 hours an achievement, but nobody will see it as one, thats all.
i'm not here to tell you how you should spend your time and if you want to think thats something special.
i'm just telling you that your warped sense of achievement is not what the communty as a whole recognizes as one, and thats why they can't understand you.
i get the assumption that spending time is all you have going for yourself, so that is why you try to protect it so hard.
*i also wonder if there is a /played option in eso, because if so, you don't need your cp level at all. just use that one.0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).
Don't worry, I read through your entire post. Having horizontal power that is difficult to get is not a flaw, it's how it should work - sure it's probably something you want to get to avoid respecs, but at the same time it doesn't determine the outcome in a PvE or PvP encounter. I.e. appropriate reward for players who put in more time, though personally I don't care too much about it & would actually prefer not getting anything but having CPs that mean something.
...which brings me to my second point: to kinda put things into perspective, doing pledges & rnd on 3-4 characters every day and writs on 18 nets me around 2m experience right now. Not grinding, rarely using xp scrolls (only ones that you get for free from daily rewards). 2 million experience a day. And I've been playing for 7 years.
The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
Under the previous system it would've taken well over 2 years for a "new" player to reach the cap, starting from 0.
I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Yes, they could avoid this by allowing us to earn CPs beyond 3600 like you mention - but are they going to do that? I've seen no indication they care about the more hardcore player base at all so my hopes aren't high.
It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.
i think the disconnect between you and everyone else is, that usually, people like to compare skill instead of time.
saying you are 80 years old is not something people will take as a great achievement.
saying you were the world best football player is an achievement.
so merely spending time doing something, which we all do, because we only have 24 hours in a day, is not related to skill.
saying you spend 4 hours a day more in eso, while someone spend 4 hours more doing something else is nothing to show off with.
that is why people don't understand your argument about showing off.
all you did was spending your time in a different way, which might very well be even easier than spending your time doing something else.
4 hours grinding in comparison to 4 hours of hard labour or something like that, just as an example.
No you're wrong. People do like to compare time spent - for example: a very well known Twitch streamer used to stream "mount offs" in another game where people would compete over who had farmed the most mounts in the game. Someone would get on a mount and if people didn't have it they'd be eliminated.
Farming mounts in that game was all about time spent doing easy repetitive content and hoping for a rare drop.
This is just one of many examples outside ESO I could bring up.
If you want a closer example, fishing in ESO is all about time spent & there's an achievement for collecting all fish in game and a title that goes along with it.
And yes, saying you're 80 years old (well, depending on where you live & general life expectancy there I guess) isn't an achievement - but saying that you're 120 sure would be. So again, wrong.
Also, I will again bring up that there's nothing "skill oriented" you can compare in ESO. Can people see and compare your BG MMR? No. Is the BG MMR even performance based? No, it's based on total score accumulated irrespective of individual performance. Do we have 2v2 arenas with leaderboards? No. Can you show off how many duels you've won? No. Can you showcase how many world first PvE trial clears you have? No.
So again, the only thing we can showcase is a "how much time I've spent in game" number next to your character name.
of course there are ways to compare your skill in game.
there are several achievements that require a certain amount of skill, and if that person has skill or not can easily be seen by playing with that person or not.
if you want some kind of evidence outside of that, easy. tournaments are streamed or on yt. same goes for world first.
people in the scene usually know who you are, if you are part of it.
your argument about buying stuff is also quite flawed.
cp farming is sold much more and a lot easier than stuff like that.
mount contest often involves mounts that are earned by skill. if it would be just about time, it would be a /played contest, but it is not. it is a MOUNT contest, not a TIME contest.
achieving godslayer and getting the mount is something you can be proud of.
do you have it? are you skillful enough?
if so, good job!
if you were just killing mobs outside of a trial, thats not so impressive..
grinding cp, which i did myself, really isn't an achievement.
You know you can just buy titles like Godslayer? Grind/purchase 250m gold... job done. "/played contest" as you put it, or /wallet if you go about it the less TOS way.
Not that it's anything impressive anymore given the amount of people with the title.
Dueling tournaments, really? Can you point to an official one organized by ZOS with prize pools etc? No? Well do I get an in game title for winning one or something? No? Ok, so it's just a personal pat in the back & maybe 5-6 people remember the tournament.
Again, this is not something you can showcase in game next to your character name - people at Rimmen wayshrine won't know you're the winner of X unofficial dueling tournament organized by Y.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »spending time is just no good metric to use for achievements.
just look at real life. who's recognized? people that play football for twenty years in their hometown team or players that are in the world cup?
the age thing is also wrong, especially if you didn't contribute to it.
just because you get an achievement for spending time in game, like fishing, doesn't mean its valuable.
you just don't seem to understand what the majority is telling you.
No I don't, because it's wrong.
There is no "world cup" in ESO where you can show off your skill and get ranked based on performance. Which part of this are you not understanding? I stream PvP for this game, do you not think I'd like to have #1 ranked arena player in my stream title or something similar? There is nothing to compete over in this game. Nothing.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »cp are not worth anything but time spend, which is no achievement in itself and therefor there's no need to try to make it something valuable.
telling someone "i spend 2 out of 24 hours of my day on the toilet." is an interesting information, but no achievement.
that is what you don't seem to understand.
What you don't seem to understand is that other people might consider something impressive that you personally do not. I get whispers all the time about my CP number and it's not even particularly high compared to other people - so clearly there are people who do not think like you do (myself included).
How much value we attribute to things is a personal decision and your opinion has been noted.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »you really can try to make breathing for the last 24 hours an achievement, but nobody will see it as one, thats all.
i'm not here to tell you how you should spend your time and if you want to think thats something special.
i'm just telling you that your warped sense of achievement is not what the communty as a whole recognizes as one, and thats why they can't understand you.
i get the assumption that spending time is all you have going for yourself, so that is why you try to protect it so hard.
*i also wonder if there is a /played option in eso, because if so, you don't need your cp level at all. just use that one.
Ah, nice to know you represent the whole community /s
Plenty of people out there who don't feel entitled to someone else's hard work and actually respect players who have put in a lot of effort into the game, enough to understand how their gameplay experience might be affected by the developers' constant catering to casuals.Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 4:33AM0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭as a level 1500 CP player, I honestly say ditch the cp system and just unlock all of the top tier items to everyone. I am tired of grinding.4 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And you still do not need 3600 CPs as a casual player so that's just a false premise to begin with.
It's like saying "I'm going to quit X MMO because I can't get BiS gear immediately as a new player".
No, you don't need it as a casual player. You don't even need 810CP as a casual player.
And yet people who are casual players go for it because it's max level, it's a goal, and it's achievable. Making 3600CP require so much XP it'll take 10 years for people who don't "grind 6 million xp a day" to achieve will make people quit or not play. No one (except you, apparently) wants to take that long to get to max level. After all, YOU didn't take that long to get to max level. Even just seeing "3600CP is max level" is going to be daunting enough to new players.
And that? Is absolutely nothing like saying "I'm going to quit X MMO because I can't get BiS gear immediately as a new player".0 -
Charon_on_Vacation✭✭✭✭Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).
Don't worry, I read through your entire post. Having horizontal power that is difficult to get is not a flaw, it's how it should work - sure it's probably something you want to get to avoid respecs, but at the same time it doesn't determine the outcome in a PvE or PvP encounter. I.e. appropriate reward for players who put in more time, though personally I don't care too much about it & would actually prefer not getting anything but having CPs that mean something.
...which brings me to my second point: to kinda put things into perspective, doing pledges & rnd on 3-4 characters every day and writs on 18 nets me around 2m experience right now. Not grinding, rarely using xp scrolls (only ones that you get for free from daily rewards). 2 million experience a day. And I've been playing for 7 years.
The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
Under the previous system it would've taken well over 2 years for a "new" player to reach the cap, starting from 0.
I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Yes, they could avoid this by allowing us to earn CPs beyond 3600 like you mention - but are they going to do that? I've seen no indication they care about the more hardcore player base at all so my hopes aren't high.
It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.
i think the disconnect between you and everyone else is, that usually, people like to compare skill instead of time.
saying you are 80 years old is not something people will take as a great achievement.
saying you were the world best football player is an achievement.
so merely spending time doing something, which we all do, because we only have 24 hours in a day, is not related to skill.
saying you spend 4 hours a day more in eso, while someone spend 4 hours more doing something else is nothing to show off with.
that is why people don't understand your argument about showing off.
all you did was spending your time in a different way, which might very well be even easier than spending your time doing something else.
4 hours grinding in comparison to 4 hours of hard labour or something like that, just as an example.
No you're wrong. People do like to compare time spent - for example: a very well known Twitch streamer used to stream "mount offs" in another game where people would compete over who had farmed the most mounts in the game. Someone would get on a mount and if people didn't have it they'd be eliminated.
Farming mounts in that game was all about time spent doing easy repetitive content and hoping for a rare drop.
This is just one of many examples outside ESO I could bring up.
If you want a closer example, fishing in ESO is all about time spent & there's an achievement for collecting all fish in game and a title that goes along with it.
And yes, saying you're 80 years old (well, depending on where you live & general life expectancy there I guess) isn't an achievement - but saying that you're 120 sure would be. So again, wrong.
Also, I will again bring up that there's nothing "skill oriented" you can compare in ESO. Can people see and compare your BG MMR? No. Is the BG MMR even performance based? No, it's based on total score accumulated irrespective of individual performance. Do we have 2v2 arenas with leaderboards? No. Can you show off how many duels you've won? No. Can you showcase how many world first PvE trial clears you have? No.
So again, the only thing we can showcase is a "how much time I've spent in game" number next to your character name.
of course there are ways to compare your skill in game.
there are several achievements that require a certain amount of skill, and if that person has skill or not can easily be seen by playing with that person or not.
if you want some kind of evidence outside of that, easy. tournaments are streamed or on yt. same goes for world first.
people in the scene usually know who you are, if you are part of it.
your argument about buying stuff is also quite flawed.
cp farming is sold much more and a lot easier than stuff like that.
mount contest often involves mounts that are earned by skill. if it would be just about time, it would be a /played contest, but it is not. it is a MOUNT contest, not a TIME contest.
achieving godslayer and getting the mount is something you can be proud of.
do you have it? are you skillful enough?
if so, good job!
if you were just killing mobs outside of a trial, thats not so impressive..
grinding cp, which i did myself, really isn't an achievement.
You know you can just buy titles like Godslayer? Grind/purchase 250m gold... job done. "/played contest" as you put it, or /wallet if you go about it the less TOS way.
Not that it's anything impressive anymore given the amount of people with the title.
Dueling tournaments, really? Can you point to an official one organized by ZOS with prize pools etc? No? Well do I get an in game title for winning one or something? No? Ok, so it's just a personal pat in the back & maybe 5-6 people remember the tournament.
Again, this is not something you can showcase in game next to your character name - people at Rimmen wayshrine won't know you're the winner of X unofficial dueling tournament organized by Y.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »spending time is just no good metric to use for achievements.
just look at real life. who's recognized? people that play football for twenty years in their hometown team or players that are in the world cup?
the age thing is also wrong, especially if you didn't contribute to it.
just because you get an achievement for spending time in game, like fishing, doesn't mean its valuable.
you just don't seem to understand what the majority is telling you.
No I don't, because it's wrong.
There is no "world cup" in ESO where you can show off your skill and get ranked based on performance. Which part of this are you not understanding? I stream PvP for this game, do you not think I'd like to have #1 ranked arena player in my stream title or something similar? There is nothing to compete over in this game. Nothing.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »cp are not worth anything but time spend, which is no achievement in itself and therefor there's no need to try to make it something valuable.
telling someone "i spend 2 out of 24 hours of my day on the toilet." is an interesting information, but no achievement.
that is what you don't seem to understand.
What you don't seem to understand is that other people might consider something impressive that you personally do not. I get whispers all the time about my CP number and it's not even particularly high compared to other people - so clearly there are people who do not think like you do (myself included).
How much value we attribute to things is a personal decision and your opinion has been noted.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »you really can try to make breathing for the last 24 hours an achievement, but nobody will see it as one, thats all.
i'm not here to tell you how you should spend your time and if you want to think thats something special.
i'm just telling you that your warped sense of achievement is not what the communty as a whole recognizes as one, and thats why they can't understand you.
i get the assumption that spending time is all you have going for yourself, so that is why you try to protect it so hard.
*i also wonder if there is a /played option in eso, because if so, you don't need your cp level at all. just use that one.
Ah, nice to know you represent the whole community /s
Plenty of people out there who don't feel entitled to someone else's hard work and actually respect players who have put in a lot of effort into the game, enough to understand how their gameplay experience might be affected by the developers' constant catering to casuals.
you really do avoid all i said.
the "you can buy godslayer title" argument, already explained.
the "no way to compare" also there are plenty of ways to compare skill.
if you want to keep thinking having 24 hours in a day is an achievement, keep at it.
i mean, just look at this thread and your position in it.
i do understand your position, that was never the issue.
i just tried to explain to you, why your position won't get you anywhere.
not with the people here, nor with zos.
you just will have to accept that most of the players and the devs of this game don't see it your way and no amount of arguing will change that.Edited by Charon_on_Vacation on February 17, 2021 5:13AM0 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭VoidCommander wrote: »I just don't understand why high CP people even care that other people will be able to get to their level quicker. It doesn't take anything away from you. You'll still have a lead over other players believe it or not.
stop assuming.
I dont really give a *** about how other players compare to me.
I care about my experience. And I really dig the prospect of horizontal spread.
BUT. I wont be able much with CP 1200 at all.
I have 10 chars. Done a lot of the easy and fun high exp non grind on all of them. talking main quest lines. first kills, achievements and the like...
Not about to delete some of my chars. Or shove more money up ZOS ass and buy more character slots. To get easy experience possibilities back. And having to do sky sgard, undaunted, mage, psy grind again.
All I am left with optionswise to get this new very exciting horizontal spread feature if cp2. 0 is slow as hell or do xp grind which I loathe.
I am really not cool with them *** me over like this. As a very loyal player with 4200 hours in the game and years of eso+ and collector editions.
I expect better treatment and more appreciation from entities I am interested in supporting with my
cash.
.Edited by remosito on February 17, 2021 8:06AMShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »So yeah, tldr:
I think there is still functional use in the CP system beyond the vertical limit so it is important this is accessible to all players, veteran or new, in order to make use of the horizonatl progression in the system. Increasing xp requirements for CP above the vertical progression limit would hamper this.
The concept of prestige due to high CP will still exist even with the lower xp curve, as the CP gap between veteran and new players will still exist. It will just be at higher CP levels. So changing it back to a higher xp curve doesn't really change anything. Only slight hiccup is the earnable CP cap of 3600, but this could simply be removed (while keeping spendable CP cap at 3600 though).
Don't worry, I read through your entire post. Having horizontal power that is difficult to get is not a flaw, it's how it should work - sure it's probably something you want to get to avoid respecs, but at the same time it doesn't determine the outcome in a PvE or PvP encounter. I.e. appropriate reward for players who put in more time, though personally I don't care too much about it & would actually prefer not getting anything but having CPs that mean something.
...which brings me to my second point: to kinda put things into perspective, doing pledges & rnd on 3-4 characters every day and writs on 18 nets me around 2m experience right now. Not grinding, rarely using xp scrolls (only ones that you get for free from daily rewards). 2 million experience a day. And I've been playing for 7 years.
The total amount of experience required to reach the cap under the new values is 2 209 357 665. This means that a new player who starts today can reach the cap in just one year by grinding 6 million xp a day. This is laughably easy.
Under the previous system it would've taken well over 2 years for a "new" player to reach the cap, starting from 0.
I.e. the 3600 matters, but only if it isn't trivially easy to reach.
By the end of the year, CP3600s will be just as common as Grand Overlords or Godslayers, i.e. just another "whatever" when you pass by one.
Yes, they could avoid this by allowing us to earn CPs beyond 3600 like you mention - but are they going to do that? I've seen no indication they care about the more hardcore player base at all so my hopes aren't high.
It is an alternative solution to this fiasco though.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »KittyHazWares wrote: »Having 2k CP isn’t prestige. Spending your whole day grinding instead of completing harder content isn’t a show off... it’s something anyone can do at any time.. ya know if they don’t have a life or want to actually have fun
Yes, it is something anyone can do at any time. Is it something they can do for years and years and years though? Probably not, that takes dedication.
...and it quite literally is a show off, why else would you spend so much time doing something?
What do you think farming for item sets is? Or why the (3rd party) armory page ( https://www.eso-armory.com/armory ) exists for item set collections?
Because people want to compete over who has the most of something. This is the case with many other games as well, look at mount collectors for example in World of Warcraft ( https://wowleaderboards.net/leaderboard/character/mounts ).
You don't get to define what is "fun" - for a lot of people spending a lot of effort to achieve something and setting yourself apart from other players by doing so is fun.
This is especially important in ESO, as the game lacks any conventional ways of competing with other players (ranked arenas, visible BG MMR, ways to inspect other players' total achievement points/collections etc).
If you don't understand this then you are not a competitive minded individual and it's best to leave it at that.
i think the disconnect between you and everyone else is, that usually, people like to compare skill instead of time.
saying you are 80 years old is not something people will take as a great achievement.
saying you were the world best football player is an achievement.
so merely spending time doing something, which we all do, because we only have 24 hours in a day, is not related to skill.
saying you spend 4 hours a day more in eso, while someone spend 4 hours more doing something else is nothing to show off with.
that is why people don't understand your argument about showing off.
all you did was spending your time in a different way, which might very well be even easier than spending your time doing something else.
4 hours grinding in comparison to 4 hours of hard labour or something like that, just as an example.
No you're wrong. People do like to compare time spent - for example: a very well known Twitch streamer used to stream "mount offs" in another game where people would compete over who had farmed the most mounts in the game. Someone would get on a mount and if people didn't have it they'd be eliminated.
Farming mounts in that game was all about time spent doing easy repetitive content and hoping for a rare drop.
This is just one of many examples outside ESO I could bring up.
If you want a closer example, fishing in ESO is all about time spent & there's an achievement for collecting all fish in game and a title that goes along with it.
And yes, saying you're 80 years old (well, depending on where you live & general life expectancy there I guess) isn't an achievement - but saying that you're 120 sure would be. So again, wrong.
Also, I will again bring up that there's nothing "skill oriented" you can compare in ESO. Can people see and compare your BG MMR? No. Is the BG MMR even performance based? No, it's based on total score accumulated irrespective of individual performance. Do we have 2v2 arenas with leaderboards? No. Can you show off how many duels you've won? No. Can you showcase how many world first PvE trial clears you have? No.
So again, the only thing we can showcase is a "how much time I've spent in game" number next to your character name.
of course there are ways to compare your skill in game.
there are several achievements that require a certain amount of skill, and if that person has skill or not can easily be seen by playing with that person or not.
if you want some kind of evidence outside of that, easy. tournaments are streamed or on yt. same goes for world first.
people in the scene usually know who you are, if you are part of it.
your argument about buying stuff is also quite flawed.
cp farming is sold much more and a lot easier than stuff like that.
mount contest often involves mounts that are earned by skill. if it would be just about time, it would be a /played contest, but it is not. it is a MOUNT contest, not a TIME contest.
achieving godslayer and getting the mount is something you can be proud of.
do you have it? are you skillful enough?
if so, good job!
if you were just killing mobs outside of a trial, thats not so impressive..
grinding cp, which i did myself, really isn't an achievement.
You know you can just buy titles like Godslayer? Grind/purchase 250m gold... job done. "/played contest" as you put it, or /wallet if you go about it the less TOS way.
Not that it's anything impressive anymore given the amount of people with the title.
Dueling tournaments, really? Can you point to an official one organized by ZOS with prize pools etc? No? Well do I get an in game title for winning one or something? No? Ok, so it's just a personal pat in the back & maybe 5-6 people remember the tournament.
Again, this is not something you can showcase in game next to your character name - people at Rimmen wayshrine won't know you're the winner of X unofficial dueling tournament organized by Y.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »spending time is just no good metric to use for achievements.
just look at real life. who's recognized? people that play football for twenty years in their hometown team or players that are in the world cup?
the age thing is also wrong, especially if you didn't contribute to it.
just because you get an achievement for spending time in game, like fishing, doesn't mean its valuable.
you just don't seem to understand what the majority is telling you.
No I don't, because it's wrong.
There is no "world cup" in ESO where you can show off your skill and get ranked based on performance. Which part of this are you not understanding? I stream PvP for this game, do you not think I'd like to have #1 ranked arena player in my stream title or something similar? There is nothing to compete over in this game. Nothing.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »cp are not worth anything but time spend, which is no achievement in itself and therefor there's no need to try to make it something valuable.
telling someone "i spend 2 out of 24 hours of my day on the toilet." is an interesting information, but no achievement.
that is what you don't seem to understand.
What you don't seem to understand is that other people might consider something impressive that you personally do not. I get whispers all the time about my CP number and it's not even particularly high compared to other people - so clearly there are people who do not think like you do (myself included).
How much value we attribute to things is a personal decision and your opinion has been noted.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »you really can try to make breathing for the last 24 hours an achievement, but nobody will see it as one, thats all.
i'm not here to tell you how you should spend your time and if you want to think thats something special.
i'm just telling you that your warped sense of achievement is not what the communty as a whole recognizes as one, and thats why they can't understand you.
i get the assumption that spending time is all you have going for yourself, so that is why you try to protect it so hard.
*i also wonder if there is a /played option in eso, because if so, you don't need your cp level at all. just use that one.
Ah, nice to know you represent the whole community /s
Plenty of people out there who don't feel entitled to someone else's hard work and actually respect players who have put in a lot of effort into the game, enough to understand how their gameplay experience might be affected by the developers' constant catering to casuals.
you really do avoid all i said.
Nope, I just skipped all the nonsensical stuff and addressed what was even remotely worth addressing, but since you insist...Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »the "you can buy godslayer title" argument, already explained.
Nope, not explained. "You can also buy CP farming!*" doesn't excuse that you can buy any title in the game. In fact, it is a lot easier to pay 250m once and spend 30 minutes of your time than it is to spend billions of gold in Master Writs & spend 617 hours doing those. Very basic math.
*best way is in fact doing Master Writs, not purchasing farm runs - again, just demonstrates lack of game knowledge - this is why we need CPs to differentiate between players with knowledge and those without)Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »the "no way to compare" also there are plenty of ways to compare skill.
Such as? Can I showcase a world first trial hardmode clear somehow? No? Thought so.
In fact you probably even wouldn't know I have World First Sanctum Ophidia hardmode from 2015 if I didn't write it here right now.
Is there a performance based visible MMR in BGs? No? Then there's no way to actually compare skill. You can claim to be good, but that's just ego talking when there's no visible statistics backing it up.Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »if you want to keep thinking having 24 hours in a day is an achievement, keep at it.
i mean, just look at this thread and your position in it.
i do understand your position, that was never the issue.
i just tried to explain to you, why your position won't get you anywhere.
not with the people here, nor with zos.
you just will have to accept that most of the players and the devs of this game don't see it your way and no amount of arguing will change that.
No, probably not - this game was taken over by casuals a long, long time ago. I'm just hoping it'll stay playable for people like me until a MMO like Ashes of Creation or New World releases and decides to take actual gamers more seriously than ESO does.0 -
Charon_on_Vacation✭✭✭✭
look, its really easy:So yeah, tldr:
you say stuff like "no rank 1 title in the game to show" etc. and in the same post you state stuff like "you can buy x".
guess what? you can buy rank 1 too. the only real way to show if you earned that stuff yourself, is to show people you are actually able to play on that level.
you say, there's no way to compare skills.
so in your opinion, everyone is playing on the same level?
because how would you know its not the case, if there is no way to compare skill?
see the issue with your argument?
you started this thread by asking a question: cp curve adjusted - but why?
everyone gave you an answer.
the community and the devs too, by going the opposite direction you want the game to go.
just because you don't like the answer or feel a different way, doesn't make it right or wrong, but you have to realize that the game already did decide which way it will go.
if you want a competitive environment, it's a lot easier to look for it in places where it's encouraged.
if you try to find it somewhere else, don't get upset if its not working out for you.
there's a reason you can make a lot more money by boosting players than to get a rank 1 title or world first in mmorpgs.
i can guarantee you, ashes and new world won't be any different.
even the riot mmorpg will be primarily a casual game.
boosting will also always be a thing. doesn't matter if its titles, rating, elo, cp, whatever.
you just have to accept and live with the fact that these are all not valid ways to compare players and therefor it was decided that cp is more useful as something else. i.e. keep people playing for the carrot without making it too hard.
if you want to keep arguing with me about that, sure, keep going.
just let me tell you that the decision has already been made by the community and the devs.
neither i nor your arguing can change it.
i'm not sure what else you can hope to achieve here, apart from blowing off some steam.
Edited by Charon_on_Vacation on February 17, 2021 3:52PM1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭What I'm not happy with is that CPs will mean absolutely nothing when CP1800->3600 (so beyond the vertical power cap) takes less than half the time it does on Live and basically anyone can reach it, at which point there is no way to progress your character anymore and thus no reasons to really log in either, veterans of this game will be indistinguishable from newer players and there's nothing that makes people go "wow" when they see your character anymore, and the number next to your userID.
I don’t understand, why does it matter to you, how who differs from whom.
If it's all because it seems to you that your character will lose the wow effect, then you are slightly exaggerating the value of your lvl numbers for new players, because most people don't care .People are preoccupied with their own numbers and those of their friends. What can surprise and delight them is the outfits of other players, I sometimes see very beautifully selected motifs. But not the numbers next to your nicknames.
Because as a competitive player I play games to set myself apart from others, whether it's via the number next to my character name, the amount of kills in a BG (since there's no actual performance based leaderboard to compete on) or the amount of items collected (https://www.eso-armory.com/armory).
See how I have to link to an external 3rd party website just for anyone to even be aware how my item set collection looks like?
CP number is the only thing of value you can showcase in game, that's the sad truth. And it won't be worth anything soon.
You want to set yourself apart via the amount of your CP? LOL
...and what else is there? Please don't tell me to show some title that means absolutely nothing nowadays. I have plenty of "rare & hard to get" titles (from Count or Master Angler to Dro'Mathra Destroyer etc), have I ever gotten a "wow, nice title" whisper? No.
If you want rare titles you gotta go with the more recent content. So why not try something like 'true genius' (stone garden trifecta)? I have never seen people sell this and I'm not even sure if there are groups around that could reliably pull of carry runs for it (EDIT: I mean carrying a low skill player without account sharing ofc).What I'm not happy with is that CPs will mean absolutely nothing when CP1800->3600 (so beyond the vertical power cap) takes less than half the time it does on Live and basically anyone can reach it, at which point there is no way to progress your character anymore and thus no reasons to really log in either, veterans of this game will be indistinguishable from newer players and there's nothing that makes people go "wow" when they see your character anymore, and the number next to your userID.
I don’t understand, why does it matter to you, how who differs from whom.
If it's all because it seems to you that your character will lose the wow effect, then you are slightly exaggerating the value of your lvl numbers for new players, because most people don't care .People are preoccupied with their own numbers and those of their friends. What can surprise and delight them is the outfits of other players, I sometimes see very beautifully selected motifs. But not the numbers next to your nicknames.
Because as a competitive player I play games to set myself apart from others, whether it's via the number next to my character name, the amount of kills in a BG (since there's no actual performance based leaderboard to compete on) or the amount of items collected (https://www.eso-armory.com/armory).
See how I have to link to an external 3rd party website just for anyone to even be aware how my item set collection looks like?
CP number is the only thing of value you can showcase in game, that's the sad truth. And it won't be worth anything soon.
You want to set yourself apart via the amount of your CP? LOL
But I get whispers about the CP number almost daily.
So you fear that after the patch you will get less praise from randoms in whisper chat? Sorry to say that I, and apparently lots of other people won't sympathize with something as self-absorbed as that.What I'm not happy with is that CPs will mean absolutely nothing when CP1800->3600 (so beyond the vertical power cap) takes less than half the time it does on Live and basically anyone can reach it, at which point there is no way to progress your character anymore and thus no reasons to really log in either, veterans of this game will be indistinguishable from newer players and there's nothing that makes people go "wow" when they see your character anymore, and the number next to your userID.
I don’t understand, why does it matter to you, how who differs from whom.
If it's all because it seems to you that your character will lose the wow effect, then you are slightly exaggerating the value of your lvl numbers for new players, because most people don't care .People are preoccupied with their own numbers and those of their friends. What can surprise and delight them is the outfits of other players, I sometimes see very beautifully selected motifs. But not the numbers next to your nicknames.
Because as a competitive player I play games to set myself apart from others, whether it's via the number next to my character name, the amount of kills in a BG (since there's no actual performance based leaderboard to compete on) or the amount of items collected (https://www.eso-armory.com/armory).
See how I have to link to an external 3rd party website just for anyone to even be aware how my item set collection looks like?
CP number is the only thing of value you can showcase in game, that's the sad truth. And it won't be worth anything soon.
You want to set yourself apart via the amount of your CP? LOL
You know me, I'm a very competitive minded person - I would much rather show that #1 ranked arena player next to my name but is that an option? No. We don't even have arenas. We don't even have proper BG MMR, or a way to see it in game (let alone showcase it).
Explain whats competitive about mindless XP grind? You even said yourself the fastest way to get XP would be master writs and there is zero skill involved in doing them. Even worse, actually hard content that requires skill to compete - like speed running hm vet DLC PvE and high level PvP - yield far less CP per time spend than simply grinding them in a no to at best very low skill environment.
And all in all ESO is a far more casual than competitive game anyway. The arguably only real competitive content provided by the game itself are trial and arena leaderboards/score runs. In case of PvP you best bet are high mmr group bgs, or better yet, player organized duel/bg/guild v guild tourneys with well thought out custom rule sets to alleviate some of the game's balance problems. You mentioned earlier that you are not really interested in duel tourneys because not enough people will remember them. That honestly sounds to me like you are less interested in the actual gameplay itself and more interested into bragging rights.
In the end, if you want to play competitive play a competitive game. If you want to play a game where XP grind matters play something like those korean grind mmos. ESO is neither. What I find a bit weird is that someone who sees themselves as a competitive players prefers a system where XP grind matters. The most competitive games I know provide every gameplay relevant feature either from the get go or after a pretty short playtime. And yes, even horizontal progression somewhat counts. Personally I would try to lower the level cap to be fast & easily reachable and make gear far more available if I would try to make the game more competitive.What I'm not happy with is that CPs will mean absolutely nothing when CP1800->3600 (so beyond the vertical power cap) takes less than half the time it does on Live and basically anyone can reach it, at which point there is no way to progress your character anymore and thus no reasons to really log in either, veterans of this game will be indistinguishable from newer players and there's nothing that makes people go "wow" when they see your character anymore, and the number next to your userID.
I don’t understand, why does it matter to you, how who differs from whom.
If it's all because it seems to you that your character will lose the wow effect, then you are slightly exaggerating the value of your lvl numbers for new players, because most people don't care .People are preoccupied with their own numbers and those of their friends. What can surprise and delight them is the outfits of other players, I sometimes see very beautifully selected motifs. But not the numbers next to your nicknames.
Because as a competitive player I play games to set myself apart from others, whether it's via the number next to my character name, the amount of kills in a BG (since there's no actual performance based leaderboard to compete on) or the amount of items collected (https://www.eso-armory.com/armory).
See how I have to link to an external 3rd party website just for anyone to even be aware how my item set collection looks like?
CP number is the only thing of value you can showcase in game, that's the sad truth. And it won't be worth anything soon.
You want to set yourself apart via the amount of your CP? LOL
The only thing that you can showcase and that does hold some meaning is a high CP number. If everyone is at the same number within a year, it no longer means anything and the game has nothing left to distinguish a 7 year veteran of the game from someone who started one year ago. That's wrong.
Has it crossed your mind that the reason you might see so few 2k+ CP players might be that most people don't really care about CP past ~1k with the current system so they don't bother to farm XP past that point? Next patch this will change, so we'll see far more veteran players doing XP grinds.Edited by HankTwo on February 17, 2021 4:21PMPC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
notachik✭✭✭I have read this from beginning to now ..I’m on PS4 810 is it.so is this a mod that allows displaying your actual number?...if it is than think about this..if a mod can show that number than a mod could be made to to also allow displaying any number you chose to input.in which case I would suggest not placing so much of your personal worth into such a thing.you’re still a vet still accomplished..show it off by demonstrating to your fellow players new and old thru actions and deeds..if I start a new character and it only shows I’m a 23 I get trash talked by 125 and up..they don’t know I’m a 752..and they can move on and fade away ..idc...I’ll be here long after they are gone..but it goes the other way as well ..be happy and spread the love of the game.0
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karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The answer is simple. It didn't matter before because you gained nothing other than a number increase. Now it does so it has to abide by. You know. Game design thoughts.2 -
IonicKai✭✭✭✭Such as? Can I showcase a world first trial hardmode clear somehow? No? Thought so.
In fact you probably even wouldn't know I have World First Sanctum Ophidia hardmode from 2015 if I didn't write it here right now.
Is there a performance based visible MMR in BGs? No? Then there's no way to actually compare skill. You can claim to be good, but that's just ego talking when there's no visible statistics backing it up.
Honestly if you are looking to compete there actually is something in ESO that should tickle your fancy. There are weekly and patch leaderboards for every trials and various leaderboards for PvP. Sure they drop every patch but that makes sense given that the game has drastic gameplay changes every patch that move the goal posts.
Sorry it's just that a lot of your argument seems to be rooted in a sense that you have no way to show off but that is an actual in game method of showcasing skill.
Also this is worth asking but did you stop to check all these "godslayers" and "tick tock tormentor s" to confirm you weren't running into the same small group of people because believe it or not your encounters with other players aren't totally random? ESO has biasing to put you in an instance with guild mates and friends over complete strangers.0 -
Mix✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think you should play to enjoy the game and not so other players will /kowtow at your perceived greatness by having a high CP number.
I think the new CP system is interesting but I also want to feel like I obtain things in a reasonable time. Since I hit cap my usual gameplay kept my CP gain such that by the next cap increase I was fine. There was no reason for me to grind xp and so I didn't. Now the prospect of it taking years to get to the new cap is rather disheartening. Now, I only play mag dps so I won't "need" as many points as those who change roles often (and who wants to respec every damn time!), but that Craft tree has loads of things I like. I steal, fish, craft, gather and who doesn't like moving faster?!
I really don't notice other people's CP levels. I mostly notice outfits and mounts. Why? because I don't really care that much what other players are up to. I just want to enjoy myself 2 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nope, not explained. "You can also buy CP farming!*" doesn't excuse that you can buy any title in the game. In fact, it is a lot easier to pay 250m once and spend 30 minutes of your time than it is to spend billions of gold in Master Writs & spend 617 hours doing those. Very basic math.
Lmao it's absolutely not a lot easier to pay 250 MILLION gold. Very few people even have 250 million gold and if they do it's because they're hardcore into trading.
...Or farming, which means they get a lot of XP, which means they earn a lot of CP, which means they... have... a... high... CP... number... oh god, all these thousands and thousands of people you see every day with GS and TTT ALSO have ~prestige because they've earned a high CP number!!
(Seriously, though, if you know how to earn that kind of gold hmu. Not to buy GS, because I earn what I have and play on console, but do you know how much fun I could have with lots of millions of gold? A LOT of fun.)1 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Nope, not explained. "You can also buy CP farming!*" doesn't excuse that you can buy any title in the game. In fact, it is a lot easier to pay 250m once and spend 30 minutes of your time than it is to spend billions of gold in Master Writs & spend 617 hours doing those. Very basic math.
Lmao it's absolutely not a lot easier to pay 250 MILLION gold. Very few people even have 250 million gold and if they do it's because they're hardcore into trading.
...Or farming, which means they get a lot of XP, which means they earn a lot of CP, which means they... have... a... high... CP... number... oh god, all these thousands and thousands of people you see every day with GS and TTT ALSO have ~prestige because they've earned a high CP number!!
(Seriously, though, if you know how to earn that kind of gold hmu. Not to buy GS, because I earn what I have and play on console, but do you know how much fun I could have with lots of millions of gold? A LOT of fun.)
Are you saying it's not easier to earn 250 million gold than it is to earn billions of gold which it would take to level up to CP3600 with Master Writs?
Just one of the many ways you can make gold (screenshot is from last year, lost my addon data few weeks ago so real number would be around 400m~ gold made through writs):
...but the best method of earning gold is probably doing the carry runs or trading.Edited by Decimus on February 17, 2021 11:44PM0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Are you saying it's not easier to earn 250 million gold than it is to earn billions of gold which it would take to level up to CP3600 with Master Writs?
Did I say that? No. Did I imply that? Also no.
There are plenty of other ways to get a chunk of XP in this game that isn't doing Master Writs that you mightn't even have the skills to do. I mean, you yourself literally said you got to where you are by doing pledges and BGs, etc. They also don't get you a bunch of gold to get to 250 million to buy a title (on PC only, because I guarantee almost and more likely no one is buying a GS title on console for only 250 million).0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Are you saying it's not easier to earn 250 million gold than it is to earn billions of gold which it would take to level up to CP3600 with Master Writs?
Did I say that? No. Did I imply that? Also no.
There are plenty of other ways to get a chunk of XP in this game that isn't doing Master Writs that you mightn't even have the skills to do. I mean, you yourself literally said you got to where you are by doing pledges and BGs, etc. They also don't get you a bunch of gold to get to 250 million to buy a title (on PC only, because I guarantee almost and more likely no one is buying a GS title on console for only 250 million).
Such as? I'm sorry but Master Writs are the fastest way to level in this game, no question. I really don't see what you're trying to tell here. Do you want to level slower? Be my guest.
Yes, I mostly do pledges & BGs right now - I don't see how that's relevant to anything. I also do writs on 18 characters and a bunch of trading as side activities, what is your point exactly?
On PC/EU plenty of people are buying carry runs, I know people selling those runs & have a pretty good idea how it works - I spent 15m gold (really unlucky with drops, a normal loot run was around 3m gold back then), myself on vAA runs just to get Perfected Asylum SnB & Inferno for PvP builds few years ago.
You underestimate the amount of effort people put into this game, 250m is peanuts for a lot of people.
Again this kinda demonstrates the whole perception difference when it comes to these things between different segments of the player base. Someone at low CP, far away from 3600 might think the grind is too much, while others closer to the 3600 see it as "just right" at the moment.Edited by Decimus on February 18, 2021 12:26AM0
