Make frost staves useful again

Lephrel

Since they reworked many weapon passives already in this update, why not do the same thing for frost staves? I'm really excited about the 2h and dw changes, which will probably give us more freedom to choose between the individual weapon types. It's a shame that they didn't use this opportunity to make ice staves more useful again.
Now I really don't understand why ZOS are so hellbent on turning frost staves into a tanking weapon. Frost staves have never been tanking weapons in TES lore and it makes sense that way - how is a stick going to reduce incoming damage???
But since they insist on turning frost staves into a poor man's 1hs, they should at least add a bonus to keep frost staves relevant as a dps option.

Instead of applying minor brittle to enemies when chilling them with a frost staves, why not add a flat 10-12% crit damage increase to frost staves instead? Or how about adding a dot/direct damage bonus to frost staves, or a flat 6% damage increase to all sources. You could even have frost staves grant spell dmg or spell penetration like maces and swords.

What are your thoughts on this? Would you like frost staves to become a viable dps option again, and how would you do it?

ESO_Nightingale

Yep we were hit REALLY hard this patch

Based on the new CP system this is what i would do with the "everyone runs fire" situation. This doesn't include dealing with that new monster helmet or engulfing flames however.

If i were zos i would do exactly these things:

Destruction Staff:

Tri focus Passive:

Shock Staff Heavy Attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done. Shock Staff Light Attacks damage nearby enemies for 50% of the damage done.

This passive now no longer changes your block cost to magicka when you have an ice staff equipped, instead this effect has been moved to a CP slottable passive.

Penetrating Magic Passive:
The 10% spell penetration bonus to destruction staff skills has been changed to instead provide a flat 1000 penetration with a destruction staff equipped.

Ancient Knowledge Passive:

Equipping an ice staff will increase your critical damage by 8% (this is to make the staff genuinely a damaging weapon again based on passives, but it is still usable by tanks and healers for supportive purposes.)

---

Status Effects
Chilled: chilled no longer solely applies the minor brittle debuff to enemies while a frost staff is equipped. Instead, this has been moved to a new CP perk called "Shatter Point".

---

CP
Warfare:
(New)Shatter Point:
Applying a martial or magical status effect applies minor brittle to an enemy increasing their critical damage taken by 10% for 4 seconds.(Slottable)

(Existing)Bulwark:
Increases your Spell and Physical Resistance by 1500 when you are using a Shield or a Frost Staff.

Equipping a Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.(Slottable)

Fitness:
(New)Magicka Ward:
Changes your block cost to magicka and reduces the magicka cost by 5% per stage. (Slottable)

Lephrel

@ESO_Nightingale
Hmm yes, many good ideas. I really hope they listen to the feedback, because rn frost staves are so completely useless, that literally any change will probably be an improvement.

Marginis

I for one miss having three options for taunts in the game rather than two. I for one like the fact that there is an option for magicka and hybrid tanks. Why not have ice staves be tanking weapons? Because it's not like other TES games? Well none of the other TES games were MMOs either, or had dedicated tanking, healing, and damage dealing roles like ESO does.

Damage dealers already have two other versatile staves. If you'd like more variety for magicka damage dealers, ask for wands or something - don't try and take away some of the few things that tanks have.

Lephrel

Marginis wrote: »

I for one miss having three options for taunts in the game rather than two. I for one like the fact that there is an option for magicka and hybrid tanks. Why not have ice staves be tanking weapons? Because it's not like other TES games? Well none of the other TES games were MMOs either, or had dedicated tanking, healing, and damage dealing roles like ESO does.

Damage dealers already have two other versatile staves. If you'd like more variety for magicka damage dealers, ask for wands or something - don't try and take away some of the few things that tanks have.

@Marginis I could tell you ask for a magicka tanking weapon instead. Besides why shouldn't a destruction staff be used for damage? I should also point out that I have no problem with frost staves retaining their blocking bonuses, I only want them to be relevant as a dps weapon again.
As it is, frost staves are inferior to probably every other weapon in the game and they can only be (viably) used in a small number of builds. I don't think many people, not even tanks, are particularly happy with frost staves atm.

JohnOfMarkarth

Marginis wrote: »

I for one miss having three options for taunts in the game rather than two. I for one like the fact that there is an option for magicka and hybrid tanks. Why not have ice staves be tanking weapons? Because it's not like other TES games? Well none of the other TES games were MMOs either, or had dedicated tanking, healing, and damage dealing roles like ESO does.

Damage dealers already have two other versatile staves. If you'd like more variety for magicka damage dealers, ask for wands or something - don't try and take away some of the few things that tanks have.

ha. The irony on this one is all over the forums it seems.

It was first... TAKEN... from DDs. So yet again, lets spin this argument on its head so it actually stands as it should...

Why take one of three only sub-types of ONE. Type of weapon from magicka DDs, like they did.

emilyhyoyeon

I would also like to propose (if ZOS won't make a magicka tanking staff), each destruction staff ability has a damage morph and a tank/utility morph.


Force shock:
Utility-crushing shock (because of the interrupt, I think fine as is)
Damage-force pulse, fine as is, maybe does more damage with element of staff user is using on that bar
ex: using lightning staff, does 1k fire damage, 1k ice damage, 2k lightning damage

Wall of elements:
Utility: elemental blockade, increased size and duration; ice gets shield and other 2 elements get something
Damage: unstable WoE, extra damage

Destructive touch:
Utility: clench, stun/knockback/anything else, one for each element
Damage: reach, increased range and DoT

Weakness to elements:
Utility: susceptibility, breach and taunt
Damage: drain, breach and magicka steal

Impulse:
Utility: elemental ring, ice gets minor protection on people where placed, fire gets reduced damage taken from fire, lightning minor evasion perhaps?
Damage: pulsar, damage for each element, perhaps increased damage done to enemes effected by respective status effect



Then passives have to be redone. I agree with Nightingale's suggestion

ESO_Nightingale

Lephrel wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I for one miss having three options for taunts in the game rather than two. I for one like the fact that there is an option for magicka and hybrid tanks. Why not have ice staves be tanking weapons? Because it's not like other TES games? Well none of the other TES games were MMOs either, or had dedicated tanking, healing, and damage dealing roles like ESO does.

Damage dealers already have two other versatile staves. If you'd like more variety for magicka damage dealers, ask for wands or something - don't try and take away some of the few things that tanks have.

@Marginis I could tell you ask for a magicka tanking weapon instead. Besides why shouldn't a destruction staff be used for damage? I should also point out that I have no problem with frost staves retaining their blocking bonuses, I only want them to be relevant as a dps weapon again.
As it is, frost staves are inferior to probably every other weapon in the game and they can only be (viably) used in a small number of builds. I don't think many people, not even tanks, are particularly happy with frost staves atm.

Exactly. And how is 2 actual magic weapons okay when stamina has so many more to chose from while also having a decent amount of class skills as well?

Xebov

Lephrel wrote: »

I could tell you ask for a magicka tanking weapon instead.

Thing is we dont have to because we got Ice Staffs which gives us one magicka and ine stamina option in total.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Exactly. And how is 2 actual magic weapons okay when stamina has so many more to chose from while also having a decent amount of class skills as well?

You mean 3 with only one being a ranged option? Not to forget that its 3 seperate skill trees so there are even more skillpoints needed in comparison?

ESO_Nightingale

Xebov wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

I could tell you ask for a magicka tanking weapon instead.

Thing is we dont have to because we got Ice Staffs which gives us one magicka and ine stamina option in total.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Exactly. And how is 2 actual magic weapons okay when stamina has so many more to chose from while also having a decent amount of class skills as well?

You mean 3 with only one being a ranged option? Not to forget that its 3 seperate skill trees so there are even more skillpoints needed in comparison?

If you see it that way it's 3 against 1. That's still a ton more. Opens up many different playstyles as well.

Starlight_Knight

Just make them DPS so we can at leased have our frost wardens.

Nolic1

Well I feel a new staff line might be better for what many are saying instead of changing all the skills as is. Also you can technically tank with any weapon in the game its just that One handed and shield and Ice Staff are easier to use do to there skills and passives. Even One handed and shield can be a dps weapon same for Ice staff its that it is more support/tank/damage that many do not like. Also with many of the CP changes you can go hybrid alot easier making all weapons really work with both stamina and spell damage skills work well So I personal do not see a problem with Ice Staff as is and I have a Ice DPS.

ESO_Nightingale

Nolic1 wrote: »

Well I feel a new staff line might be better for what many are saying instead of changing all the skills as is. Also you can technically tank with any weapon in the game its just that One handed and shield and Ice Staff are easier to use do to there skills and passives. Even One handed and shield can be a dps weapon same for Ice staff its that it is more support/tank/damage that many do not like. Also with many of the CP changes you can go hybrid alot easier making all weapons really work with both stamina and spell damage skills work well So I personal do not see a problem with Ice Staff as is and I have a Ice DPS.

I don't agree with needing to make a new line. It's unnecessary. We can move the tank passives into cp.

MashmalloMan

What is their obsession with fire damage about? I don't understand why frost and shock get absolutely no monster sets. How do they lack the forsight to see how little options are made available?

YandereGirlfriend

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What is their obsession with fire damage about? I don't understand why frost and shock get absolutely no monster sets. How do they lack the forsight to see how little options are made available?

Indeed, the developers seem to be in their own little echo chamber where every reverberation sounds like "Buff Flame Damage more."

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What is their obsession with fire damage about? I don't understand why frost and shock get absolutely no monster sets. How do they lack the forsight to see how little options are made available?

Indeed, the developers seem to be in their own little echo chamber where every reverberation sounds like "Buff Flame Damage more."

I'm sure it's not like that at all. But it's also not like they have said anything to address the concern.

YandereGirlfriend

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What is their obsession with fire damage about? I don't understand why frost and shock get absolutely no monster sets. How do they lack the forsight to see how little options are made available?

Indeed, the developers seem to be in their own little echo chamber where every reverberation sounds like "Buff Flame Damage more."

I'm sure it's not like that at all. But it's also not like they have said anything to address the concern.

Really NOTHING can explain the absence of any Frost or Shock monster sets while seemingly every year we get yet another Flame-oriented one.

I think that the developers geared themselves out years ago and are just trying to avoid farming for a Frost or Lightning Staff.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What is their obsession with fire damage about? I don't understand why frost and shock get absolutely no monster sets. How do they lack the forsight to see how little options are made available?

Indeed, the developers seem to be in their own little echo chamber where every reverberation sounds like "Buff Flame Damage more."

I'm sure it's not like that at all. But it's also not like they have said anything to address the concern.

Really NOTHING can explain the absence of any Frost or Shock monster sets while seemingly every year we get yet another Flame-oriented one.

I think that the developers geared themselves out years ago and are just trying to avoid farming for a Frost or Lightning Staff.

I'm not sure what's actually going on in zos in reguards to this. Because no-one does. They're completely opaque about this stuff.
It doesn't inspire confidence and just makes the community angrier. it's probably not the developers choice to keep things quiet.

MashmalloMan

I think they just continue to have a rigid view about fire vs every other element as the single target dps element and fail to recognize while making other parts of the game highly customizable that frost and shock just fall short.. This methology is then taken into set design where anything damage related created for an element, is created for fire damage.

Honestly it feels like the set designers didn't get the memo.

Whats odd is they updated physical, magical and bleed damage to have their own unique status effects, presumably because they want all elements to have build potential and viability for dps. So looking at classes like Stam Sorc, Stamplar, Magplar and Stamden, they seem to at least get new methods of utility and dps through these changes that other classes or builds don't get as much benefit from. It makes customizing your character more interesting when you know your choice of element does something extra and helps define why certain classes are made the way they are.

The changes to stamina weapons this patch and the update to dynamic scaling attacks last patch, couple that with the fact that we can all get +150% status effect chance and it's pretty telling to their approach going forward.

So whats the deal with frost/shock. Tell the team the news, mag dps have more than 1 way to optimize their builds. We want shock and frost sets.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I think they just continue to have a rigid view about fire vs every other element as the single target dps element and fail to recognize while making other parts of the game highly customizable that frost and shock just fall short.. This methology is then taken into set design where anything damage related created for an element, is created for fire damage.

Honestly it feels like the set designers didn't get the memo.

Whats odd is they updated physical, magical and bleed damage to have their own unique status effects, presumably because they want all elements to have build potential and viability for dps. So looking at classes like Stam Sorc, Stamplar, Magplar and Stamden, they seem to at least get new methods of utility and dps through these changes that other classes or builds don't get as much benefit from. It makes customizing your character more interesting when you know your choice of element does something extra and helps define why certain classes are made the way they are.

The changes to stamina weapons this patch and the update to dynamic scaling attacks last patch, couple that with the fact that we can all get +150% status effect chance and it's pretty telling to their approach going forward.

So whats the deal with frost/shock. Tell the team the news, mag dps have more than 1 way to optimize their builds. We want shock and frost sets.

Can only hope they have a plan or see this. It's annoying to know that they potentially know something but we will never know if they know until it's changed.

zvavi

Tbh while I do think frost staves needs to be addressed, they should do something about the mess they created with the new CP.

GreenHere

If they would just redesign the ugly and obtrusive cylindrical shields ice blockades give, I'd be happy. No idea how that got the green light, tbh. Looks bad, and is too bright.

Sounds petty, but that annoying visual is enough to repel me from using ice staves even if they were superior in every other way. : P

ESO_Nightingale

GreenHere wrote: »

If they would just redesign the ugly and obtrusive cylindrical shields ice blockades give, I'd be happy. No idea how that got the green light, tbh. Looks bad, and is too bright.

Sounds petty, but that annoying visual is enough to repel me from using ice staves even if they were superior in every other way. : P

i believe they're also causing crashes if they're stacked as well.

Xebov

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

If you see it that way it's 3 against 1. That's still a ton more. Opens up many different playstyles as well.

In that case you could ask for the staves to be split up into 3 seperate skill trees to allow for more different skills.

selig_fay

I just think we need more variety of magic weapons. Besides destruction and restoration, there is conjuration, alteration and illusion. Alteration would make a great tank weapon, and illusion would make a great support weapon. Then the dps could get their good destruction changes.
It's like a compromise. Now, if you remove the frost staff from the tanks, they will not have much choice.

ESO_Nightingale

Xebov wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

If you see it that way it's 3 against 1. That's still a ton more. Opens up many different playstyles as well.

In that case you could ask for the staves to be split up into 3 seperate skill trees to allow for more different skills.

Or we could keep things minimal and do what is actually necessary to help the weapon out while also keeping the 2 playstyles intact. They said they've set up cp to expand it in the future. So this is a logical solution and relatively inexpensive.

ESO_Nightingale

zvavi wrote: »

Tbh while I do think frost staves needs to be addressed, they should do something about the mess they created with the new CP.

sure i guess. they should also nerf that new fire monster helmet to prevent fire staves from getting even more of a leg up in groups.

DonGodJoe

I dont know you people, im pretty easily tanking with my magicka tank build with frost staff .. i got even more resist and shield absorbs than my main tank toon lol

Ofcourse its not a build maybe for vSS or not following your "meta" build but with all the sets/crafting sets possibilities its a solid magtank build i could make since the frost staff been reworked

ESO_Nightingale

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I dont know you people, im pretty easily tanking with my magicka tank build with frost staff .. i got even more resist and shield absorbs than my main tank toon lol

Ofcourse its not a build maybe for vSS or not following your "meta" build but with all the sets/crafting sets possibilities its a solid magtank build i could make since the frost staff been reworked

We are talking about actively making the staff better for damage dealing like it originally was in the first place. Not tanking as it's fine for that. Right now dps that use frost staves struggle to be viable because tanks and healers can make it redundant by applying brittle a good amount of the time. Having to compete by needing enough damage to not be immediately dropped, and having that damage effectively taken away by your competition (tanks and healers) is really awful. If you don't know what i mean, brittle in it's nature as a group buff only needs to be applied by 1 person to have a good uptime for the group. Any more than that is wasting dps, because you can think of brittle as a damage buff for self if you're the only one applying it.

selig_fay

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I dont know you people, im pretty easily tanking with my magicka tank build with frost staff .. i got even more resist and shield absorbs than my main tank toon lol

Ofcourse its not a build maybe for vSS or not following your "meta" build but with all the sets/crafting sets possibilities its a solid magtank build i could make since the frost staff been reworked

We are talking about actively making the staff better for damage dealing like it originally was in the first place. Not tanking as it's fine for that. Right now dps that use frost staves struggle to be viable because tanks and healers can make it redundant by applying brittle a good amount of the time. Having to compete by needing enough damage to not be immediately dropped, and having that damage effectively taken away by your competition (tanks and healers) is really awful. If you don't know what i mean, brittle in it's nature as a group buff only needs to be applied by 1 person to have a good uptime for the group. Any more than that is wasting dps, because you can think of brittle as a damage buff for self if you're the only one applying it.

I think that many tanks will perceive this topic negatively. And I think it's obvious that the frost staff won't get good dps until its defensive stats are nerfed.
So there is a conflict of interest between tanks and dps. (the healers will go with those who remain, as it has always been). Therefore, until the tanks get an alternative, I think any change to the frost staff towards dps will be dangerous.

On the other hand, stamina dps has 3 weapon tree, magic dps has 1 weapon tree, like tanks and healers. And I think there is a problem here. If mageDPS gets a frost staff I don't think that will solve the problem of choice, because it is still a staff of destruction. The same wall of elemets, only with a different effect. I think it can be compared to the one-handed or two-handed weapons trees, only here the effects are less different, but still.

ESO_Nightingale

selig_fay wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I dont know you people, im pretty easily tanking with my magicka tank build with frost staff .. i got even more resist and shield absorbs than my main tank toon lol

Ofcourse its not a build maybe for vSS or not following your "meta" build but with all the sets/crafting sets possibilities its a solid magtank build i could make since the frost staff been reworked

We are talking about actively making the staff better for damage dealing like it originally was in the first place. Not tanking as it's fine for that. Right now dps that use frost staves struggle to be viable because tanks and healers can make it redundant by applying brittle a good amount of the time. Having to compete by needing enough damage to not be immediately dropped, and having that damage effectively taken away by your competition (tanks and healers) is really awful. If you don't know what i mean, brittle in it's nature as a group buff only needs to be applied by 1 person to have a good uptime for the group. Any more than that is wasting dps, because you can think of brittle as a damage buff for self if you're the only one applying it.

I think that many tanks will perceive this topic negatively. And I think it's obvious that the frost staff won't get good dps until its defensive stats are nerfed.
So there is a conflict of interest between tanks and dps. (the healers will go with those who remain, as it has always been). Therefore, until the tanks get an alternative, I think any change to the frost staff towards dps will be dangerous.

On the other hand, stamina dps has 3 weapon tree, magic dps has 1 weapon tree, like tanks and healers. And I think there is a problem here. If mageDPS gets a frost staff I don't think that will solve the problem of choice, because it is still a staff of destruction. The same wall of elemets, only with a different effect. I think it can be compared to the one-handed or two-handed weapons trees, only here the effects are less different, but still.

When it comes to the "frost staff not getting good dps until its defensive stats get nerfed"

I believe that we are able to bypass this by moving tank related passives into the new cp system which was built for future expansion. You can put these on slottable bonuses as I've suggested before. I do not believe that it is overpowered to have both just as long as the tanking related things are secured in cp. Magic block cost being shifted to fitness keeps that extremely niche effect but as a buildable passive in cp. It removes the problematic part of the passive and allows everyone using destruction staves to take it again. It's currently unlike every other normal passive and it feels bad because it hurts you.