Make frost staves useful again

Lephrel

@emilyhyoyeon Oh I'm so sorry. Didn't take the time to read it correctly. Fixed it.

Lephrel

selig_fay wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

And with regard to mechanics, magicka dps is already the most restricted in terms of weapon choice. In most cases, there is only one viable option - inferno staves.

The most limited are the healers. They only have a staff of restoration and they have to use dps weapons to debuff enemies. There is no other weapon that only focuses on support or debuffs. If you remove the frost staff from the tank, then the tanks will also find themselves in this situation, because they will only have a shield.

Well healers use destruction staves (lightning) and healing staves. Tanks use 1hs and destruction staves (lightning/frost). Stamdd can use 2h, dw and bow.
The only role that can only use one type of weapon (destruction staves) is the magicka damage dealer. On top of that we can't even choose between the elements freely, to add some extra flavour. Almost everyone is forced to use inferno staves.

ESO_Nightingale

We don't need to

selig_fay wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

And with regard to mechanics, magicka dps is already the most restricted in terms of weapon choice. In most cases, there is only one viable option - inferno staves.

The most limited are the healers. They only have a staff of restoration and they have to use dps weapons to debuff enemies. There is no other weapon that only focuses on support or debuffs. If you remove the frost staff from the tank, then the tanks will also find themselves in this situation, because they will only have a shield.
Now magic dps has 2 types of staves for different situations. Only stam dps now have the most diverse selection. And I see a lot of dps with the lightning staff, so I don't think magic dps is just fire.
While we have few magic weapons, we cannot talk about any kind of choice, because, you know, we have few magic weapons. We cannot say that a magic tank is impossible, because it reduces the choice of players.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

I got a fix make a single staff just destruction and allow us to choose which skills are which elements and slot them allowing us to have say wall of fire, forst clench and lightning storm ult all on same bar then turn the 2 other former elemental staves into illusion and conjiration staves and give them appropriate roles and skills no more single element meta.

That is a lot harder to do than zos has the time for right now.

Well, considering that you can copy staff skins and some animations, a quarter of the work has already been done. But I think that the weapon system is important and need to allocate time for it. In any case, we create a request. Whether it is possible or not, how difficult is not our problem.

Why should we wait for that when we can utilise the new cp system to fix it a lot faster?

ESO_Nightingale

Vevvev wrote: »

I never understood the ice staff being a tanking weapon either. In Lore and alteration staff would be better since that school comes with crowd control, group buffs, magical armor, enemy debuffs, and other spells to make you incredibly hard to kill or make your opponent's lives miserable.

Neither. It was created to be one because there wasn't a frost class until the same update they changed it.

Lapin_Logic

Lephrel wrote: »

Since they reworked many weapon passives already in this update, why not do the same thing for frost staves? I'm really excited about the 2h and dw changes, which will probably give us more freedom to choose between the individual weapon types. It's a shame that they didn't use this opportunity to make ice staves more useful again.
Now I really don't understand why ZOS are so hellbent on turning frost staves into a tanking weapon. Frost staves have never been tanking weapons in TES lore and it makes sense that way - how is a stick going to reduce incoming damage???
But since they insist on turning frost staves into a poor man's 1hs, they should at least add a bonus to keep frost staves relevant as a dps option.

Instead of applying minor brittle to enemies when chilling them with a frost staves, why not add a flat 10-12% crit damage increase to frost staves instead? Or how about adding a dot/direct damage bonus to frost staves, or a flat 6% damage increase to all sources. You could even have frost staves grant spell dmg or spell penetration like maces and swords.

What are your thoughts on this? Would you like frost staves to become a viable dps option again, and how would you do it?

[snip]

Every patch this comes up, and every patch it gets reiterated that we have a stick for single target and a different stick for AOE DPS, we have another stick for healing, [snip] Seriously though, what other speciality would frost do that doesn't tread on Flame or Shock, and what would Tanks use as a Magicka dump or to play as a "Battle Mage"?

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Sinolai

I like the current frost staff. It is not an optimal damage weapon and it is not optimal tank weapon, but it is very nice support weapon that gives nice way to protect your team and take damage/tank adds in an add heavy fights. Not the weapon everyone should be using but a weapon that someone in the group should be using and it offers lots of flexibility. The arena weapon passives also finally makes a bit sense now that it is not just a tank weapon, although I still think each staff could have a bit different effect depending on the staff type.
Also, I'd have rather taken the old aoe snare with the elemental wall than the current shields. It was a very handy cc tool. The frost clench taunt is also pretty useless (we already have inner fire) and could be changed to something handier.

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

Lephrel

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

Since they reworked many weapon passives already in this update, why not do the same thing for frost staves? I'm really excited about the 2h and dw changes, which will probably give us more freedom to choose between the individual weapon types. It's a shame that they didn't use this opportunity to make ice staves more useful again.
Now I really don't understand why ZOS are so hellbent on turning frost staves into a tanking weapon. Frost staves have never been tanking weapons in TES lore and it makes sense that way - how is a stick going to reduce incoming damage???
But since they insist on turning frost staves into a poor man's 1hs, they should at least add a bonus to keep frost staves relevant as a dps option.

Instead of applying minor brittle to enemies when chilling them with a frost staves, why not add a flat 10-12% crit damage increase to frost staves instead? Or how about adding a dot/direct damage bonus to frost staves, or a flat 6% damage increase to all sources. You could even have frost staves grant spell dmg or spell penetration like maces and swords.

What are your thoughts on this? Would you like frost staves to become a viable dps option again, and how would you do it?

[snip]

Every patch this comes up, and every patch it gets reiterated that we have a stick for single target and a different stick for AOE DPS, we have another stick for healing, [snip] Seriously though, what other speciality would frost do that doesn't tread on Flame or Shock, and what would Tanks use as a Magicka dump or to play as a "Battle Mage"?

First of all, cool down. You seem a little upset.
Secondly, you can't compare frost staves and 1hs. Frost staves were on par with the other elements for years and ZOS firmly established ice mages, when they introduced the warden. On top of that, in previous TES games, ice magic was always used destructively and it was similarly effective to other elements. So don't act like we're asking for ZOS to buff some outlandish RP playstyle, that only existed in elder scrolls fanfiction or something.
You ask what frost would bring to the table, that we don't already get from fire, shock? Well mostly it would add some variety to magicka dps, personally I think the ice visuals look better than fire. On top of that, some of the destro staff skills have unique effects based on the elements you choose.
To be perfectly honest, I'd already be really happy about a weapon reskin option, i.e. you can make your inferno look like an ice staff.

Besides, I didn't even ask for them to remove the tanking passives. You can keep your magicka block if you want it so badly. All I'm really asking for, is for ZOS to give frost staves some better damage passives and perhaps reconsider one the elemental blockade change (maybe only add the shield to one morph and have the other morph keep the damage and snare).

emilyhyoyeon

Sinolai wrote: »

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.
We are asking for frost damage passives in the same way that both fire and lightning have damage passives, considering, shown in the rest of the TES franchise, ice DESTRUCTION magic is for damaging, in the same way that fire DESTRUCTION and lightning DESTRUCTION magic styles are for damaging.

Other than respective elemental resistance shields, the destruction magic school doesn't really contain defensive tools.

thadjarvis

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.

What's more important?

1) having damage passives and tool tips that read as damage passives
or
2) having frost staffs be within X% of fire st or lightning AOE. What is that X% expectation?

Daemonai

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.
We are asking for frost damage passives in the same way that both fire and lightning have damage passives, considering, shown in the rest of the TES franchise, ice DESTRUCTION magic is for damaging, in the same way that fire DESTRUCTION and lightning DESTRUCTION magic styles are for damaging.

Other than respective elemental resistance shields, the destruction magic school doesn't really contain defensive tools.

Min-maxers will always gravitate towards the BiS, so if Frost Staff isn't BiS it is functionally useless like it was before they changed it into a tank weapon.

At least as a Magicka tank weapon, Frost Staff has a unique, irreplaceable niche.

emilyhyoyeon

thadjarvis wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.

What's more important?

1) having damage passives and tool tips that read as damage passives
or
2) having frost staffs be within X% of fire st or lightning AOE. What is that X% expectation?

I don't know what the latter of number 1 is supposed to mean. Destruction magic is a damage based magic school in TES. I want that to be the first priority on ice staff in the same way it is for fire and lightning. I want ice staff to be intended for damage and tanking/support second if ZOS won't make a new magicka support staff.

emilyhyoyeon

Daemonai wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.
We are asking for frost damage passives in the same way that both fire and lightning have damage passives, considering, shown in the rest of the TES franchise, ice DESTRUCTION magic is for damaging, in the same way that fire DESTRUCTION and lightning DESTRUCTION magic styles are for damaging.

Other than respective elemental resistance shields, the destruction magic school doesn't really contain defensive tools.

Min-maxers will always gravitate towards the BiS, so if Frost Staff isn't BiS it is functionally useless like it was before they changed it into a tank weapon.

At least as a Magicka tank weapon, Frost Staff has a unique, irreplaceable niche.

No one who wants ice staff to be a damage weapon is talking about making in BIS for minmaxers. We're talking about making it a damage weapon. The title is referring to making it a damage weapon again

thadjarvis

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I want that to be the first priority on ice staff in the same way it is for fire and lightning. I want ice staff to be intended for damage and tanking/support second if ZOS won't make a new magicka support staff.

So you are more focused on how the tool tips of passives and CP read rather than the actual DPS difference from Fire it seems. That steps on other players toes more. They could keep the tank passives and juice the DPS and that still wouldn't suffice?!

Daemonai

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.
We are asking for frost damage passives in the same way that both fire and lightning have damage passives, considering, shown in the rest of the TES franchise, ice DESTRUCTION magic is for damaging, in the same way that fire DESTRUCTION and lightning DESTRUCTION magic styles are for damaging.

Other than respective elemental resistance shields, the destruction magic school doesn't really contain defensive tools.

Min-maxers will always gravitate towards the BiS, so if Frost Staff isn't BiS it is functionally useless like it was before they changed it into a tank weapon.

At least as a Magicka tank weapon, Frost Staff has a unique, irreplaceable niche.

No one who wants ice staff to be a damage weapon is talking about making in BIS for minmaxers. We're talking about making it a damage weapon. The title is referring to making it a damage weapon again

There is zero incentive to make Frost Staff a DPS staff if it is going to be innately inferior to the other options just so a few people can roleplay as Mr. Freeze. That would be a regression - right back to square one.

emilyhyoyeon

thadjarvis wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I want that to be the first priority on ice staff in the same way it is for fire and lightning. I want ice staff to be intended for damage and tanking/support second if ZOS won't make a new magicka support staff.

So you are more focused on how the tool tips of passives and CP read rather than the actual DPS difference from Fire it seems. That steps on other players toes more. They could keep the tank passives and juice the DPS and that still wouldn't suffice?!

I don't know how you're getting that out of what I said. I want both ice destruction magic and tanking magic to be consistent with the rest of the franchise.

emilyhyoyeon

Daemonai wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.
We are asking for frost damage passives in the same way that both fire and lightning have damage passives, considering, shown in the rest of the TES franchise, ice DESTRUCTION magic is for damaging, in the same way that fire DESTRUCTION and lightning DESTRUCTION magic styles are for damaging.

Other than respective elemental resistance shields, the destruction magic school doesn't really contain defensive tools.

Min-maxers will always gravitate towards the BiS, so if Frost Staff isn't BiS it is functionally useless like it was before they changed it into a tank weapon.

At least as a Magicka tank weapon, Frost Staff has a unique, irreplaceable niche.

No one who wants ice staff to be a damage weapon is talking about making in BIS for minmaxers. We're talking about making it a damage weapon. The title is referring to making it a damage weapon again

There is zero incentive to make Frost Staff a DPS staff if it is going to be innately inferior to the other options just so a few people can roleplay as Mr. Freeze. That would be a regression - right back to square one.

I mean yeah this is literally about roleplay and consistency with the franchise. This is a roleplaying game after all lol. If you don't care about roleplay, then making ice staff a DPS weapon and a new magicka tanking weapon for tanking, I don't see where you have a problem here

thadjarvis

@emilyhyoyeon

Just was trying to parse the goals here. There are two. Some want frost to be a stronger weapon in terms of DPS (but have not quantified that) and others like yourself are focused on how the tool tips read for RP purposes. I think it is clear now. The latter will fall of deaf ears of many. For me it matters but I don't think it's way out of lore...

RP and lore:
Staff damage differences were mainly because of differing enemy resists. Bc of that weren't shock and fire generally stronger particularly in Skyrim. Even in Obilivian and Morrowind I recall frost to output slightly less damage overall. At the same time frost did have crowd control aspects to it. IE the damage magnitude's may be different (again which haven't been quantified) but the spirit that ice staffs have uses as the more defensive destruction staff seems to have some consistency with other ES games.

Alteration staffs did all kids of other stuff. The spells of that line that would be used in ESO are already in the game. They have been placed Mage's and Psijic lines. Take a look and you'll see that they basically lifted skills right out of it for those skill lines https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Alteration_(Skyrim)

emilyhyoyeon

thadjarvis wrote: »

@emilyhyoyeon

IE the damage magnitude's may be different (again which haven't been quantified) but the spirit that ice staffs have uses as the more defensive destruction staff seems to have some consistency with other ES games.

Nowhere near to the extent that it manifests in ESO though. I don't think the fact that ice destruction magic slowed enemies and drained stamina is enough to make it a tanking weapon ''lore''wise, especially when the other elements also have similar defensive utilities behind them in the other games.


I've developed a TES OC for the past 13 years who's a tanky utility mage, so I want a magicka tanking staff in ESO. I also want ice destruction magic to be considered destruction magic. There's a lot of overlap between the schools and they change a bit from game to game, but destruction magic is clearly ''supposed'' to be destruction-oriented.

thadjarvis

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

@emilyhyoyeon

IE the damage magnitude's may be different (again which haven't been quantified) but the spirit that ice staffs have uses as the more defensive destruction staff seems to have some consistency with other ES games.

Nowhere near to the extent that it manifests in ESO though. I don't think the fact that ice destruction magic slowed enemies and drained stamina is enough to make it a tanking weapon ''lore''wise, especially when the other elements also have similar defensive utilities behind them in the other games

Again you haven't quantified it. Eg when say magplar say they are weak compared to class X and need a buff; they define a relevant test (either a dummy or boss parse) and quantitively show the difference.

I can tell you that magden frost solo is roughly equal to fire.

Do we have data to compare frost vs fire in ESO in fully buffed groups? I would like to do it but need a chilled applicator for a fair comparison. Secondly you claim the gap is greater than it is in other ES games. For that you'd have to run a test in those games. I honestly don't think you or any us know if the gap is greater or less.

emilyhyoyeon

thadjarvis wrote: »

Alteration staffs did all kids of other stuff. The spells of that line that would be used in ESO are already in the game. They have been placed Mage's and Psijic lines. Take a look and you'll see that they basically lifted skills right out of it for those skill lines https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Alteration_(Skyrim)

I would say there's still a lot of potential for an alteration staff, if that were to be the magicka tank/utility weapon

thadjarvis

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I would say there's still a lot of potential for an alteration staff, if that were to be the magicka tank/utility weapon

What skills though? The alteration skills are in the game already. Things like detect life and telekinetic aren't but those have no combat use in the way ESO is designed. Maybe just for Heist or Dark Brotherhood stuff, but that's really it.

emilyhyoyeon

thadjarvis wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

@emilyhyoyeon

IE the damage magnitude's may be different (again which haven't been quantified) but the spirit that ice staffs have uses as the more defensive destruction staff seems to have some consistency with other ES games.

Nowhere near to the extent that it manifests in ESO though. I don't think the fact that ice destruction magic slowed enemies and drained stamina is enough to make it a tanking weapon ''lore''wise, especially when the other elements also have similar defensive utilities behind them in the other games

Again you haven't quantified it. Eg when say magplar say they are weak compared to class X and need a buff; they define a relevant test (either a dummy or boss parse) and quantitively show the difference.

I can tell you that magden frost solo is roughly equal to fire.

Do we have data to compare frost vs fire in ESO in fully buffed groups? I would like to do it but need a chilled applicator for a fair comparison. Secondly you claim the gap is greater than it is in other ES games. For that you'd have to run a test in those games. I honestly don't think you or any us know if the gap is greater or less.

I was referring to the bit '' the spirit that ice staffs have uses as the more defensive destruction staff seems to have some consistency with other ES games''

emilyhyoyeon

thadjarvis wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I would say there's still a lot of potential for an alteration staff, if that were to be the magicka tank/utility weapon

What skills though? The alteration skills are in the game already. Things like detect life and telekinetic aren't but those have no combat use in the way ESO is designed. Maybe just for Heist or Dark Brotherhood stuff, but that's really it.

telekinesis -- magicka based add pull
feather -- make your allies weightless, giving you and them major/minor/something expedition and reducing their ability to be slowed by X%

2 already without thinking
at least one taunt I suppose (which doesn't exactly make sense for alteration but neither does it under frost clench)


If you think that, for ex, because there are already shields in the game that alteration staff can't have shields, idk what to tell you. Skills overlap everywhere already

thadjarvis

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I would say there's still a lot of potential for an alteration staff, if that were to be the magicka tank/utility weapon

What skills though? The alteration skills are in the game already. Things like detect life and telekinetic aren't but those have no combat use in the way ESO is designed. Maybe just for Heist or Dark Brotherhood stuff, but that's really it.

telekinesis -- magicka based add pull
feather -- make your allies weightless, giving you and them major/minor/something expedition and reducing their ability to be slowed by X%

2 already without thinking
at least one taunt I suppose (which doesn't exactly make sense for alteration but neither does it under frost clench)


If you think that, for ex, because there are already shields in the game that alteration staff can't have shields, idk what to tell you. Skills overlap everywhere already

That's fair. But it is a tough weapon to add from a business perspective imo as tanks are a tiny portion of ESO and magika tanking is a minority of that.

ZoS seems to choose skill lines and classes that can be used by all roles in all content. Alteration staff unfortunately is really narrow.

thadjarvis

But again it seems the focus is on role playing. Frost is just as good as fire solo which is generally RP mode. In group RP, the goal is RP not every % of damage.

phantasmalD

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Every patch this comes up, and every patch it gets reiterated that we have a stick for single target and a different stick for AOE DPS
what other speciality would frost do that doesn't tread on Flame or Shock

The distinction between Fire and Shock isn't really single vs AoE, both elements have skills of both.
The difference is more like DoT vs AoE, aka fire mainly works with long lasting ticks of damage while Shock delivers a single burst of AoE aura to soften up extra targets.

There is design space for an element that focuses on big burst damage skills instead, probably with some crit related bonuses. With the addition of Major Brittle ZoS is already kinda taking this direction, associating frost with crit.

And if this threads on the territory of fire or shock then maybe they should be re-examined and their flavour tightened up as they clearly aren't that well defined to begin with.

Lapin_Logic

Lephrel wrote: »

and ZOS firmly established ice mages, when they introduced the warden.

To be fair, ZOS established that ice was Tanky when they introduced the Warden, if you rewatch the teaser cinematics he casts shields and heals, his bear goes and takes care of business.

Lapin_Logic

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Should they turn ice staff into a pure damage weapon it would always compete with the inferno and in the meta, one of the two would always be obsolate.

We aren't asking for frost to be BIS.
We are asking for frost damage passives in the same way that both fire and lightning have damage passives, considering, shown in the rest of the TES franchise, ice DESTRUCTION magic is for damaging, in the same way that fire DESTRUCTION and lightning DESTRUCTION magic styles are for damaging.

Other than respective elemental resistance shields, the destruction magic school doesn't really contain defensive tools.

Frost does plenty damage in Cyrodiil.

Lapin_Logic

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I want ice staff to be intended for damage and tanking/support second if ZOS won't make a new magicka support staff.

ESO is Rock Paper Scissors, You can't have "Damage" And "Tanking" + a bit of support too.
It's why you don't see raid DPS running SnB you have to pick one or it becomes overpowered, ZOS saw that flame and lightning fill the 2 niches and a third is (and was for years) a redundant decon item of disappointment, So they gave it a role, Middle of the road for damage but robust for a battle mage ( but not as good as SnB because you miss 1 enchant), Not overpowered, but extremely relevant.

Lapin_Logic

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

consistency with the franchise. If you don't care about roleplay, then making ice staff a DPS weapon and a new magicka tanking weapon for tanking, I don't see where you have a problem here

1. this instalment in the Franchise is not a single player game so mechanically it functions different, we don't have spell scrolls, I can't fortify my enchantments until they are 99999% and one shot Parthurnax, it needs to have MMO rules and checks and balances.

2. "I don't see where you have the problem", you are asking people who have already farmed and improved many items to go out and farm an entirely new type of weapon solely because you want Ice staves to do Slightly more damage but not be best, can you see why that might come off as a bit annoying? especially now the sticker book exists adding another weapon for every set in the game to either farm or buy.