[PTS] - Argonian Racial Changes

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.

You would be right, with 1000 spell damage and multipliers, 3333 spell damage is easily achievable.

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.

You would be right, with 1000 spell damage and multipliers, 3333 spell damage is easily achievable.

I hate how long it took us (all of the forums) to catch onto that. Feels like we are a headless chicken now because nobody did any testing and shared the results.
Khajiit are BiS for dps, Argonians have the strongest heals. Next thing we know Redguards with green max stam food (since they don't need health or sustain) outdamage Dunmer.
I wish I could complete more than one raid dummy parse without my hands hurting, then I'd do that testing myself...

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.

You would be right, with 1000 spell damage and multipliers, 3333 spell damage is easily achievable.

I hate how long it took us (all of the forums) to catch onto that. Feels like we are a headless chicken now because nobody did any testing and shared the results.
Khajiit are BiS for dps, Argonians have the strongest heals. Next thing we know Redguards with green max stam food (since they don't need health or sustain) outdamage Dunmer.
I wish I could complete more than one raid dummy parse without my hands hurting, then I'd do that testing myself...

Khajiit is bis for dd? Wouldn’t bosmer be better for green stat food? 950 pen > 0 meaning they can drop a mace for a sword, dagger or axe?

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.

You would be right, with 1000 spell damage and multipliers, 3333 spell damage is easily achievable.

I hate how long it took us (all of the forums) to catch onto that. Feels like we are a headless chicken now because nobody did any testing and shared the results.
Khajiit are BiS for dps, Argonians have the strongest heals. Next thing we know Redguards with green max stam food (since they don't need health or sustain) outdamage Dunmer.
I wish I could complete more than one raid dummy parse without my hands hurting, then I'd do that testing myself...

Khajiit is bis for dd? Wouldn’t bosmer be better for green stat food? 950 pen > 0 meaning they can drop a mace for a sword, dagger or axe?

Yeah, apparently, according to people who I assume can parse better than me, Khajiit have the highest damage now because the 12% crit damage is worth quite a bit now due to the new 1000 base spell/weapon damage. I can't tell if that is actually true or not but it does sound plausible. This is also going to be different depending on what class you are on because some already have crit damage modifiers build into them and Necromancer gains crit chance. I also can't tell how big the lead is but according to one rough estimate over in the Khajiit thread, they are within 1.1% of Dunmer now, which is better than it previously was.
And yes, Bosmer is most likely still better than Redguards, that was just a bit of a joke that they might be better than Dunmer. Still it's worth looking into for both Redguards and Bosmer if green max stam food can bump your damage now that we don't need food with a health bonus anymore.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.

You would be right, with 1000 spell damage and multipliers, 3333 spell damage is easily achievable.

I hate how long it took us (all of the forums) to catch onto that. Feels like we are a headless chicken now because nobody did any testing and shared the results.
Khajiit are BiS for dps, Argonians have the strongest heals. Next thing we know Redguards with green max stam food (since they don't need health or sustain) outdamage Dunmer.
I wish I could complete more than one raid dummy parse without my hands hurting, then I'd do that testing myself...

Khajiit is bis for dd? Wouldn’t bosmer be better for green stat food? 950 pen > 0 meaning they can drop a mace for a sword, dagger or axe?

Yeah, apparently, according to people who I assume can parse better than me, Khajiit have the highest damage now because the 12% crit damage is worth quite a bit now due to the new 1000 base spell/weapon damage. I can't tell if that is actually true or not but it does sound plausible. This is also going to be different depending on what class you are on because some already have crit damage modifiers build into them and Necromancer gains crit chance. I also can't tell how big the lead is but according to one rough estimate over in the Khajiit thread, they are within 1.1% of Dunmer now, which is better than it previously was.
And yes, Bosmer is most likely still better than Redguards, that was just a bit of a joke that they might be better than Dunmer. Still it's worth looking into for both Redguards and Bosmer if green max stam food can bump your damage now that we don't need food with a health bonus anymore.

Dunmer and orc still do better than redguard even with green food (hearty corn chowder)

Here is some math

Dunmer:
Dunmer gets 258 wd 1910 stam and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 6485 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and only having major and minor brutality (keep in mind that you can get better numbers with adding more fighters guild abilites or being a class like templar or sorc that have weapon damage or even stam intergrated in their kit)

you would get 361 wd and 6874 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 658

which would get a total effective wd of 1019

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 6615 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 633

which would get a total effective wd of 1005 (Interesting)



Orc:
Orc gets 258 wd 1000 stam and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 5575stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 361 wd and 5910 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 566

which would get a total effective wd of 927

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 5687 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 544

which would get a total effective wd of 916 (Interesting)


Redguard:

Redguard gets 2000 stam and 6048 stam from hearty corn chowder

a total of 8048 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 8531 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 816

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 8209 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 785

We even can include a stam sorc for the best case sinerio (sorc gets 8% more stam)

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and otherwise the same buffs as above

you would get 9174 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 878

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 8853 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 847

Lets throw in Altmer for poops and giggles

Altmer:

Altmer gets 258 wd and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 4575 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 361 wd and 4850 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 464

which would get a total effective wd of 825

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 4667 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 447

which would get a total effective wd of 819

An Altmer sorc would also get 2% extra wd in addition to the 8% stam so we have to calculate that in if we were to compare.

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 366 wd and 5216 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 499

which would get a total effective wd of 865

redguard is only marginally better and this is only assuming that the only other source of wd is bound arraments, which means you are not including other skills like hurricane, beast trap, dbos and more) with other multipliers existing and bar set ups being of high variance depending on the build, we can still assume that altmer will come up on top.

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 377 wd and 5033 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 482

which would get a total effective wd of 859 (clearly better than redguard)

it is just sad that altmer is even legitamently comparable to redguard and worse still surpassing it imho.

TL;DR: Dunmer > Orc > Altmer > Redguard

Redguard needs some buffs if it wants to stay competitive. It can be a damage boost or even a twin blade and blunt style buff when involving weapons.

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.

You would be right, with 1000 spell damage and multipliers, 3333 spell damage is easily achievable.

I hate how long it took us (all of the forums) to catch onto that. Feels like we are a headless chicken now because nobody did any testing and shared the results.
Khajiit are BiS for dps, Argonians have the strongest heals. Next thing we know Redguards with green max stam food (since they don't need health or sustain) outdamage Dunmer.
I wish I could complete more than one raid dummy parse without my hands hurting, then I'd do that testing myself...

Khajiit is bis for dd? Wouldn’t bosmer be better for green stat food? 950 pen > 0 meaning they can drop a mace for a sword, dagger or axe?

Yeah, apparently, according to people who I assume can parse better than me, Khajiit have the highest damage now because the 12% crit damage is worth quite a bit now due to the new 1000 base spell/weapon damage. I can't tell if that is actually true or not but it does sound plausible. This is also going to be different depending on what class you are on because some already have crit damage modifiers build into them and Necromancer gains crit chance. I also can't tell how big the lead is but according to one rough estimate over in the Khajiit thread, they are within 1.1% of Dunmer now, which is better than it previously was.
And yes, Bosmer is most likely still better than Redguards, that was just a bit of a joke that they might be better than Dunmer. Still it's worth looking into for both Redguards and Bosmer if green max stam food can bump your damage now that we don't need food with a health bonus anymore.

Dunmer and orc still do better than redguard even with green food (hearty corn chowder)

Here is some math

Dunmer:
Dunmer gets 258 wd 1910 stam and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 6485 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and only having major and minor brutality (keep in mind that you can get better numbers with adding more fighters guild abilites or being a class like templar or sorc that have weapon damage or even stam intergrated in their kit)

you would get 361 wd and 6874 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 658

which would get a total effective wd of 1019

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 6615 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 633

which would get a total effective wd of 1005 (Interesting)



Orc:
Orc gets 258 wd 1000 stam and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 5575stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 361 wd and 5910 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 566

which would get a total effective wd of 927

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 5687 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 544

which would get a total effective wd of 916 (Interesting)


Redguard:

Redguard gets 2000 stam and 6048 stam from hearty corn chowder

a total of 8048 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 8531 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 816

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 8209 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 785

We even can include a stam sorc for the best case sinerio (sorc gets 8% more stam)

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and otherwise the same buffs as above

you would get 9174 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 878

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 8853 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 847

Lets throw in Altmer for poops and giggles

Altmer:

Altmer gets 258 wd and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 4575 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 361 wd and 4850 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 464

which would get a total effective wd of 825

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 4667 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 447

which would get a total effective wd of 819

An Altmer sorc would also get 2% extra wd in addition to the 8% stam so we have to calculate that in if we were to compare.

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 366 wd and 5216 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 499

which would get a total effective wd of 865

redguard is only marginally better and this is only assuming that the only other source of wd is bound arraments, which means you are not including other skills like hurricane, beast trap, dbos and more) with other multipliers existing and bar set ups being of high variance depending on the build, we can still assume that altmer will come up on top.

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 377 wd and 5033 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 482

which would get a total effective wd of 859 (clearly better than redguard)

it is just sad that altmer is even legitamently comparable to redguard and worse still surpassing it imho.

TL;DR: Dunmer > Orc > Altmer > Redguard

Redguard needs some buffs if it wants to stay competitive. It can be a damage boost or even a twin blade and blunt style buff when involving weapons.

Interesting. You might want to share that in the Redguard thread and Include where Bosmer are in this with their new penetration.

This is the Argonian thread after all.

Dr_Ganknstein

All I know is we are getting 1k stamina and Resourceful nerf, and the no poison/disease resistance although its in the tooltip.

Ratzkifal

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

All I know is we are getting 1k stamina and Resourceful nerf, and the no poison/disease resistance although its in the tooltip.

Yeah, they really should fix that bug.
At least the healing done passive is actually useful now even if they didn't change the value. That base spell damage really bumps it up in effectiveness.

xaraan

My issue with Argonian changes is and always has been the overvalue of the potion passive by some.

If you don't need the additional resources the potion offers, then you get zero benefit (or less than optimal even if not zero).

And as some have pointed out, even if you need the full benefits from all three portions of the bonus resources it isn't as strong as it looks.

Frankly it should have been left at 4K and they just added the stam bonus.

They are already not in the top two slots for tanking anymore, the extra stam makes them not any better for that role and just makes them not the worst choice for a stam dd (though far from best).

Ratzkifal

xaraan wrote: »

My issue with Argonian changes is and always has been the overvalue of the potion passive by some.

If you don't need the additional resources the potion offers, then you get zero benefit (or less than optimal even if not zero).

And as some have pointed out, even if you need the full benefits from all three portions of the bonus resources it isn't as strong as it looks.

Frankly it should have been left at 4K and they just added the stam bonus.

They are already not in the top two slots for tanking anymore, the extra stam makes them not any better for that role and just makes them not the worst choice for a stam dd (though far from best).

Big agree.
The reason the potion passive is or rather was considered strong is the resettability it offers in PvP. An Argonian drinking a potion in PvP is back to full health and full resources as if they had just entered the fight while an Imperial, who technically has better sustain, will be lower on resources temporarily, which can be a death sentense if you don't have the stamina to dodgeroll or break free from the next incoming threat. That's why Argonians were broken in Murkmire, because their potion passive was just too strong. After the Wrathstone nerf, the potion passive was in a good balance state for PvP, but already kind of "meh" in PvE.
After this nerf the potion passive is terrible for what it offers considering the cost that comes with it. 3125 health and resources every 45 seconds is 69.4 per second or 138.8 equivalent recovery. That sounds good until you remember that this isn't affected by recovery modifiers from armor or skills. Khajiit, who have substantial crit damage and healing modifiers on top of their tri-stat recovery get 85 resource recovery, which grows to 123 recovery from major and minor buffs and still get their armor boni to recovery on top of that. Khajiit have better tri-stat sustain than Argonians.
The only saving grace is that the potion passive still works while blocking, which is why Argonians are considered a tank race in the first place, otherwise Khajiit would be tanking their spot there.

I still think Argonians should get proper tristat recovery with double the health recovery simply because no other race has filled that niche yet and it's useful in PvP in a similar way that resetability is. And to make Argonian tanks less sad about the loss of stamina sustain, they should get a little bit of ultimate generation, possibly still tied to potions or permanently active but at a lower value than Nord with 100% uptime instead.
But that's just me.

Dr_Ganknstein

Ratzkifal wrote: »

After this nerf the potion passive is terrible for what it offers considering the cost that comes with it. 3125 health and resources every 45 seconds is 69.4 per second or 138.8 equivalent recovery. That sounds good until you remember that this isn't affected by recovery modifiers from armor or skills.

Also the health portion of Resourceful is effected by Battle Spirit so around 1562. Though I saw it crit a few times but it never was near 3125, in Cyrodiil anyway.

Ratzkifal

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

After this nerf the potion passive is terrible for what it offers considering the cost that comes with it. 3125 health and resources every 45 seconds is 69.4 per second or 138.8 equivalent recovery. That sounds good until you remember that this isn't affected by recovery modifiers from armor or skills.

Also the health portion of Resourceful is effected by Battle Spirit so around 1562. Though I saw it crit a few times but it never was near 3125, in Cyrodiil anyway.

Compare that to Orc who get 1000 health every 4 seconds in PvP. That's 500 equivalent health recovery.
I would say 258 health recovery, 124 magicka and stamina recovery would be balanced for Argonians since it doesn't overshadow Bretons, Bosmer, Redguard or Imperial in their respective field of sustain, nor Orcs with their healing, but offers a clear niche you can choose to capitalize on or completely ignore and still get a use out of it (especially when you don't have the funds to spam potions).

UppGRAYxDD

Give us bigger tails!!!

exeeter702

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

All I know is we are getting 1k stamina and Resourceful nerf, and the no poison/disease resistance although its in the tooltip.

Yeah, they really should fix that bug.
At least the healing done passive is actually useful now even if they didn't change the value. That base spell damage really bumps it up in effectiveness.

I'm not grasping this logic. The spell damage was provided to everyone, the floor was just risen. The power difference is all relative. Or is there something that I'm missing here. How does this bonus spell damage make the healing done passive better relative to the other races passives that netted them numerically superior healing to argonian.

selig_fay

I think the extra recovery from potions is very useful. This is not only for tanks in the block, but also for mistform and stage 4 vampires. But nerf makes me sad. Add at least minor buffs to restore resources when you drink the potion. Minor + major buffs from potions could help and it wouldn't be much, because it would be useless to get them from, for example, an allied warden. Or just do it at 150 resources per second for 30 seconds. That's 4500, which is more than it is now, but it's stretched over time, so it's still going to be worse than it is now.

ExistingRug61

exeeter702 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

All I know is we are getting 1k stamina and Resourceful nerf, and the no poison/disease resistance although its in the tooltip.

Yeah, they really should fix that bug.
At least the healing done passive is actually useful now even if they didn't change the value. That base spell damage really bumps it up in effectiveness.

I'm not grasping this logic. The spell damage was provided to everyone, the floor was just risen. The power difference is all relative. Or is there something that I'm missing here. How does this bonus spell damage make the healing done passive better relative to the other races passives that netted them numerically superior healing to argonian.

@exeeter702
While the weapon spell damage was provided to everyone, a build/race/class that has higher multipliers gets more benefit from it. In the case of Argonian it’s passive has this effect for healing because it is multiplicative with the free stats, rather than additive like most others.

Here’s a basic example from the “break even point”
Take a build that has
SD + mag/10.5 = 4300
And no other multipliers
From this point, adding 258 SD is a 6% increase in the combined value, so would increase heals by 6%, so could be viewed as equal with the 6% healing passive Argonian has for healing as both result in the same heal strength.

Now, let’s add the extra base SD to that.
So now SD + mag/10.5 = 5300
If we add 258 to this we get 5558. But this is only 4.8% more than 5300. So from this starting point with the increased base stats, the Argonian 6% healing done will result in stronger heals than an extra 258 SD (because it’s multiplicative rather than additive).

Obviously there’s a lot more factors involved, but conceptually this principle holds true regardless.

So the extra stats slightly benefit Argonian healers more than other healers (to what degree depends on their current stats). It’s minor, but it is there.

DreadDaedroth

Argonians due their reptile and amphibian nature oshould get back the healing received bonus, to rapresent the quick regeneration of wounds.

Sinolai

+ 1000 stamina (Resourceful: now grants both mag & stam bonus).

This is a buff and helps especially tank argonian. Doesnt make it a dps but everyone usess stamina for something.


+/- Argonian Resistance: Both Poison & Diseased resistance, but no status effect immunity.

Overall this is a buff since poison damage is more common than disease and ZOS removed NPC's ability to apply status effects (a bad decision if you ask me but I'll go with it).

- Potion passive got nerfed quite nasty - resources restored down to 3125 from 4000.

Annoying nerf. Would not have hurt to keep the original.

- Live mender is still to low to be relevant (6% only).
Agree with that.

Summary: Overall Argonians got buffed but they are still far behind the meta races.

Tommy_The_Gun

Sinolai wrote: »

+ 1000 stamina (Resourceful: now grants both mag & stam bonus).

This is a buff and helps especially tank argonian. Doesnt make it a dps but everyone usess stamina for something.


+/- Argonian Resistance: Both Poison & Diseased resistance, but no status effect immunity.

Overall this is a buff since poison damage is more common than disease and ZOS removed NPC's ability to apply status effects (a bad decision if you ask me but I'll go with it).

- Potion passive got nerfed quite nasty - resources restored down to 3125 from 4000.

Annoying nerf. Would not have hurt to keep the original.

- Live mender is still to low to be relevant (6% only).
Agree with that.

Summary: Overall Argonians got buffed but they are still far behind the meta races.

Personally I think that overall it is huge nerf to Argonian racials, with poison resistance added being only positive change.

The thing about added stamina is that it is kinda irrelevant, as we will have more max resources anyway (they added it to "base" to compensate for CP changes and additionally we will have new CP boosting max stats).

Bottom line - it will be easier to get max resources, so every stamina / magicka / health bonus (set & racial) value has deflated drastically.

^ That is also why I think that Orc loosing 1K stam is also kinda irrelevant as with same setup, on PTS I have more stam than on live, despite having 1K stamina less from racials.

As for the Resourceful passive... it is just too bad to even bother to make potion - based builds and try to sustain them using Argonian passive.

On top of that it is just behaving weirdly... It is affected by Battle Spirit (rip PvP Argonian builds), it can crit (it never did before & nothing about it is mentioned in PTS notes)... again wierd...
...Also apparently it can be boosted with % healing modifiers...

^ Only health restored portion is affected by it, so I really don't know why ZOS nerfed mag & stam restore...