[PTS] - Argonian Racial Changes

Drayzon

It really is such a shame the way ZoS treats argonian passives, they are in such a sorry state compared other races.

All I can do is just beg with each race passive tweak patch is that they remove that useless healing passive for something universally better, like flat spell/weapon damage.

Tommy_The_Gun

Drayzon wrote: »

All I can do is just beg with each race passive tweak patch is that they remove that useless healing passive for something universally better, like flat spell/weapon damage.

Yep.

Overall, problem with the whole Argonian racial passives (ignoring 1st passive) is that all of them are kinda a "dead weight" passives, that add some stuff here and there, but overall, those are weak and hard to take advatage from. But - mathematically they are almost over power budget.

If I were to compare it to something... lets say, imagine if you have "1" of each Country's currency from all over the world (1 dollar 1 euro, 1 pound, 1 peso etc.)... In total that is a lot of coins & money, right ?

Now go to any shop and try to buy anything with it. It won't work...

Some one earlier (can't remember if it was in this thread or not) said same thing - that 6% healing bonus should be converted to flat stat - 129 or 250 weapons / spell dmg added to you healing abilities. And that would be way better as you would have a passive that you can take advatage always, without building for it.

As for the whole potion passive - I like its "theme". It implies that you character is a reptile. It has different metabolism, and potions & alchemy is not toxic for you (Kinda similar to what Witcher has).

So It is nice, but if I were to re-work it somehow, I would make it still a potion - related passive. Maybe smaller cooldown or stronger/longer potion effect etc.
^ It simply seems that this passive in its current state is too much taxing when it comes to Argonian's power budget, with very little actual benefit.

Epilog

The most funny thing is that the design of racial skills in the release version of the game where actually better. Back before the CP system when there were soft caps for stats, your race choice where not that important. Since then they are always struggling with the balance.

Maybe they just don't want to balance them and see the differences/discussion/needed decision as enrichment to the game and a good hook for monetization.

In my opinion they should just leave the utility passives and remove the rest. But even if they don't want to do that there are enough possibilities to change argonian passives:

a) restore the potion passive to its really old version, where it just increased the effect of potions by x% and maybe add poisons as well. (won't happen because they want to get rid of % based values)

b) replace the potion passive with something like: when healing restore x resources with cooldown of y sec.

c) tune down the potion passive to only one resource and/or remove the health bonus to free some budget to make the last passive better.

d) replace the healing percentage with something like: increase weapon and spell damage for damage over time and healing over time abilities by x

e) + many other good ideas already posted in the forum several times

The potion passive just prevent argonians from getting buffs, because the theoretical budget of that passive is too high and the percentage based bonus to healing is kind of a relic of older design days.

Ratzkifal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

And on top of horrible 30% Resourceful passive nerf, this passive is now also affected by Battle Spirit... meaning that 3125 health restored (when you drink a potion) is now 50% less... so 1562...


...

So that is like what... 70 health recovery ? ? (that you need to drink potion in order to get lol) ZOS, try to be serious for once, it is hilarious at this point... *laughs through tears*

So it would seem that they will be even worse race for pvp... worst dps, healer, 2nd worse tank...

I know, it 100% a bug and not intended. Health recovery and other racial health restore passive (such as Orc's one) is not affected by Battle Spirit. Additionally, Resourceful is not affected by any healing buff (such as mending) but cyro de-buff affects it.

...But something tells me (seeing how we do not even have a racial rebalance official feedback), that it will be ignored and we will have to wait like yet another 2+ years.

Wait... have you tested that? Because the Orc passive should be affected by battlespirit too. Maybe not the old one, but definitely the new one.

DreadDaedroth

Look at this idea
Resourceful: whenever you drink a potion you restore 4500 Health,Magicka, Stamina.

stefj68

i will defenitively switch my redguard stamplar to either orc or woodelf
and all my argonians
waiting on patch to go lives to go test changes on pts

UppGRAYxDD

How about buffing the Amphibious passive by giving Argonians immunity to Slaughter Fish? Cause thick scales yada yada...
Or even a passive dodge chance for X amount of time after leaving water...Cause we Lizards

Or give us a dmg/recovery buff the longer we are in the sun? Also cause we Lizards...

Dr_Ganknstein

Figured they are from the swamps/murkmire so what about +256 poison/disease damage? As a way to hybridize them?

YandereGirlfriend

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

How about buffing the Amphibious passive by giving Argonians immunity to Slaughter Fish? Cause thick scales yada yada...
Or even a passive dodge chance for X amount of time after leaving water...Cause we Lizards

Or give us a dmg/recovery buff the longer we are in the sun? Also cause we Lizards...

Oh, I like this!

Cold-Blooded: Resource regeneration is doubled when the sun is shining.

Ratzkifal

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

How about buffing the Amphibious passive by giving Argonians immunity to Slaughter Fish? Cause thick scales yada yada...
Or even a passive dodge chance for X amount of time after leaving water...Cause we Lizards

Or give us a dmg/recovery buff the longer we are in the sun? Also cause we Lizards...

That would be cool, but remember that Slaughterfish are used in PvP to divide alliances properly. AD wouldn't like if a third of the pact could just swim instead of going over Alessia Bridge (although personally I love the image of that).

exeeter702

Ratzkifal wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

How about buffing the Amphibious passive by giving Argonians immunity to Slaughter Fish? Cause thick scales yada yada...
Or even a passive dodge chance for X amount of time after leaving water...Cause we Lizards

Or give us a dmg/recovery buff the longer we are in the sun? Also cause we Lizards...

That would be cool, but remember that Slaughterfish are used in PvP to divide alliances properly. AD wouldn't like if a third of the pact could just swim instead of going over Alessia Bridge (although personally I love the image of that).

While true, its overly specific lol. Slautherfish is simply a coded answer to control out of bounds travel everywhere in the game. But ofc the comment you were replying to was not being serious.

Ratzkifal

exeeter702 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

How about buffing the Amphibious passive by giving Argonians immunity to Slaughter Fish? Cause thick scales yada yada...
Or even a passive dodge chance for X amount of time after leaving water...Cause we Lizards

Or give us a dmg/recovery buff the longer we are in the sun? Also cause we Lizards...

That would be cool, but remember that Slaughterfish are used in PvP to divide alliances properly. AD wouldn't like if a third of the pact could just swim instead of going over Alessia Bridge (although personally I love the image of that).

While true, its overly specific lol. Slautherfish is simply a coded answer to control out of bounds travel everywhere in the game. But ofc the comment you were replying to was not being serious.

I was more thinking along the lines of a resistance rather than immunity anyway, which would still leave the out of bounds protection in place as you will die eventually. Dark Elves get resistance to environmental lava damage too after all.
That would be a cool idea that could work, but as I said, in PvP it would be a bit broken on the EP vs AD front.

Even if it was just a joke, it's a fun idea that I would love to see happening even if it's just for one patch. Amphibian Pact troops assaulting Alessia through the river. The chaos and the salt would be delicious

UppGRAYxDD

Ratzkifal wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

How about buffing the Amphibious passive by giving Argonians immunity to Slaughter Fish? Cause thick scales yada yada...
Or even a passive dodge chance for X amount of time after leaving water...Cause we Lizards

Or give us a dmg/recovery buff the longer we are in the sun? Also cause we Lizards...

That would be cool, but remember that Slaughterfish are used in PvP to divide alliances properly. AD wouldn't like if a third of the pact could just swim instead of going over Alessia Bridge (although personally I love the image of that).

While true, its overly specific lol. Slautherfish is simply a coded answer to control out of bounds travel everywhere in the game. But ofc the comment you were replying to was not being serious.

I was more thinking along the lines of a resistance rather than immunity anyway, which would still leave the out of bounds protection in place as you will die eventually. Dark Elves get resistance to environmental lava damage too after all.
That would be a cool idea that could work, but as I said, in PvP it would be a bit broken on the EP vs AD front.

Even if it was just a joke, it's a fun idea that I would love to see happening even if it's just for one patch. Amphibian Pact troops assaulting Alessia through the river. The chaos and the salt would be delicious

The Amphibious Argonian Assault Super Squad is now accepting applicants...

Faulgor

Epilog wrote: »

b) replace the potion passive with something like: when healing restore x resources with cooldown of y sec.

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly (do you mean healing done or healing taken?), but I like the idea of:
When restoring health, also restore x magicka and stamina. This can happen every y seconds.

I'm not entirely sure about the cooldown, because then it's just a more complicated recovery bonus. Given that it doesn't work at full health and wouldn't be increased by minor/major buffs, the magnitude should als be considerable. Something around 180 recovery equivalent. But it keeps the amphibian theme and is unique.

Roll the potion and the healing passive into this, freeing up some power budget for offensive purposes (either increase their attribute pools or a small spell/weapon dmg buff), and I think Argonians could work.

ExistingRug61

Faulgor wrote: »

Epilog wrote: »

b) replace the potion passive with something like: when healing restore x resources with cooldown of y sec.

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly (do you mean healing done or healing taken?), but I like the idea of:
When restoring health, also restore x magicka and stamina. This can happen every y seconds.

I'm not entirely sure about the cooldown, because then it's just a more complicated recovery bonus. Given that it doesn't work at full health and wouldn't be increased by minor/major buffs, the magnitude should als be considerable. Something around 180 recovery equivalent. But it keeps the amphibian theme and is unique.

Roll the potion and the healing passive into this, freeing up some power budget for offensive purposes (either increase their attribute pools or a small spell/weapon dmg buff), and I think Argonians could work.

Actually there’s no reason for it not to work at full health, as over healing still counts as healing (as it needs to be able to trigger things like spell power cure).
In fact you could even make it modify its effect when overhealing, ie:

When you are healed, restore an additional x health, stamina and magicka. If you are overhealed, instead restore z stamina and magicka (where z is bigger than x).
This can happen every y seconds.

Values to be whatever works balance wise.

Conceptually I think this kinda fits as to me it seems like an “adaptive regen” which could be considered a reptilian trait.

And I think it is good to keep it as restore instead of regen- this distinguishes it from Khajiit which has tri regen and tri stats already and while it isn’t effected by multipliers instead it has the advantage of also working when regen is disabled (ie blocking). Which gives it a point of difference.

Lumenn

So thread after thread, math layed out on argonian, even the other "my race needs help" threads still mention how bad argonian is, your whole community let zos know argonian needs help, and nothing. I'm disappointed, and for some reason actually surprised. I SHOULDN'T be after all these years, but shamefully I'm caught off guard. I expected a change that doesn't actually HELP yes. Didn't expect outright nothing when your community comes together on something this strongly.

exeeter702

Faulgor wrote: »

Epilog wrote: »

b) replace the potion passive with something like: when healing restore x resources with cooldown of y sec.

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly (do you mean healing done or healing taken?), but I like the idea of:
When restoring health, also restore x magicka and stamina. This can happen every y seconds.

I'm not entirely sure about the cooldown, because then it's just a more complicated recovery bonus. Given that it doesn't work at full health and wouldn't be increased by minor/major buffs, the magnitude should als be considerable. Something around 180 recovery equivalent. But it keeps the amphibian theme and is unique.

Roll the potion and the healing passive into this, freeing up some power budget for offensive purposes (either increase their attribute pools or a small spell/weapon dmg buff), and I think Argonians could work.

"When you are healed from any source, restore x magicka and stamina. This effect can occur every y seconds"

There are plenty of effects in game that are coded to work when overhealed. I realize it wouldnt be very useful in pve if you arent taking damage but even if it only works on actual health restored, you are going to have a 100 percent uptime on the passive in pvp or as a tank in pve.

Dr_Ganknstein

Don't forget argonians are not getting poison and disease resistance on PTS still.

Epilog

Faulgor wrote: »

Epilog wrote: »

b) replace the potion passive with something like: when healing restore x resources with cooldown of y sec.

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly (do you mean healing done or healing taken?).

I initially thought about healing done and restoring resources on the target (which can also be yourself). So you could use this passive to also help your group and get a unique healer passive.

But it could also be changed to "Healing done and received" and/or "Restore on yourself and x% of that on the target".

Tommy_The_Gun

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Don't forget argonians are not getting poison and disease resistance on PTS still.

Is battle spirit still bugged and affecting Resourceful health restored too ?

Dr_Ganknstein

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Don't forget argonians are not getting poison and disease resistance on PTS still.

Is battle spirit still bugged and affecting Resourceful health restored too ?

I'll check it in a sec

Dr_Ganknstein

Just tested again and Resourceful is effected by +% to healing, can crit and is effected by Battle Spirit. At least the healing portion anyway.

Ratzkifal

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Just tested again and Resourceful is effected by +% to healing, can crit and is effected by Battle Spirit. At least the healing portion anyway.

Wait, that can crit? Euhm... Don't let ZOS hear that, because it looks very much like a proc that shouldn't be able to crit, just like the Orc passive. Although maybe then it'll actually get buffed?

Arjuna1696

Just want to be another voice saying: Why are argonians so underpowered? Make the potion passive more interesting again, or do something with the 6% healing - anything to bring them up to par!

Dr_Ganknstein

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Just tested again and Resourceful is effected by +% to healing, can crit and is effected by Battle Spirit. At least the healing portion anyway.

Wait, that can crit? Euhm... Don't let ZOS hear that, because it looks very much like a proc that shouldn't be able to crit, just like the Orc passive. Although maybe then it'll actually get buffed?

Even with a crit it doesn't come close to what it should be. It's pretty underwhelming considering the nerf.

Anyron

3 weeks of testing with no change, and i doubt they will till the end

ZOS DOESNT CARE ABOUT ARGONIANS

Tommy_The_Gun

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Just tested again and Resourceful is effected by +% to healing, can crit and is effected by Battle Spirit. At least the healing portion anyway.

Wait... what ?! It CAN crit... wt#...
It never behaved like this... Didn't ZOS optimized skills and passives to have less calculations to have less stress on the server ? What is going on...

So it is 3125, but if it crits it is like 6250 ?! And in Cyro it will be 3125 (if it crits) ?

That is on average, as potentially you can boost it by tiny bit with some CP % gear... but building decent crit chance on top of building potion cooldown... idk about that... (it is still RNG).

Wonder if (since those were nerfed too) mag & stam restore can crit too. Technically it should not, but I will have to test it too...

They had to adjust it in newer PTS round as I remembered that I tried to test it wiith minor/major mending buff & Order of Diagna and it did not worked. Same with crit - I had like 30% crit chance, tested it around 10x times and did not noticed any "abnormally" high values.

It is wierd that "under the hood" change like this is not mentioned in PTS notes...

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up !

Anyron

Sshh...Now that you mentioned it, they are going to remove crit side and keep everything as it is...
Come on, dont you know ZOS?

Dr_Ganknstein

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Just tested again and Resourceful is effected by +% to healing, can crit and is effected by Battle Spirit. At least the healing portion anyway.

Wait... what ?! It CAN crit... wt#...
It never behaved like this... Didn't ZOS optimized skills and passives to have less calculations to have less stress on the server ? What is going on...

So it is 3125, but if it crits it is like 6250 ?! And in Cyro it will be 3125 (if it crits) ?

!

3125 - 55% from battle spirit. So non-crit 1562ish

Ratzkifal

I just realized something.
With the new 1000 base weapon and spell damage, shouldn't Argonians be healing more than Altmer and Dunmer now because they can easily cross the 3333 spell damage threshold?
I guess that counts for something.