[PTS] - Argonian Racial Changes

ankeor

exeeter702 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

Well potion passive is almost always partially wasted so..
I would call it a win with extra stam.

I respectfully disagree.

Well I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

Tommy_The_Gun

I just wanted to point something out.

If you use 3x infused potion cooldown glyphs, you can get potion cooldown down to 21 seconds.

So 3125 potion recovery with 21 potion cooldown tranlates to 297 recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Consumes a potion

Now, if you would use infused with tri-stat recovery you would get 402 recovery.
(120 + 120 + 120 = 360) ) (134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
Free, passives recovery

On Live server however, since Argonians have 4000 resources restore, this tranlates to 380 recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)

So basically on Live you get slightly more less with the use of Argonian potion passive.

But on PTS, with the reducion potion passive resources restored, you get significantly less than if you used tri-stat recovery glyphs...
(Potion passive 297 vs 402 tri-stat recovery).

^ I hope it sheads some light on to the issue, that obviously is kinda wrong and should be the other way arround...

Basically, what I am trying to say is with those changes, ZOS should either buff potion cooldown glyphs or nerf recovery glyphs or do not change Argonian potion passive.
Edit: Infused tr-stat recovery is actually 134 lol...

MasterSpatula

I think it's a good nerf because my Argonian characters were crazy overpowered, completely dominating...

Wait, no, that's wrong....

Ummm....

Nope. Bad. Just plain bad. Yeesh.

Koronach

Well the problem they are having is, well Argonians were never tanks. They were known for Intelligence, agility, and speed. Daggerfall even says they make good mages and thieves. In later games they had a 30 in endurance and 40 in strength, it's been a while but I imagine they start with low hp. Honestly would of made sense how they had the Pact Nord Tank , Dunmer hybrid, and Argonian healer, mag/stam dps. Through out the series we typically see Nords- heavy armor warriors, Dunmer- mages, tanks/warriors, and assassins, Argonians- healers, mages, shadowscales/assassins, and thieves. I honestly think tank was prob the worst choice, but prob do to needing 3 alliances to pvp, it got messed up. I guess it's kind of too late now being this late maybe, but they should of gone with stam over hp/tank. That's just my opinion.

Bloodystab

Playing the game as Stamblade Argonian since the launching of ESO for 'Fashion reasons'

The only pros of Argonians is if you like challenges, as they are the worst Race at everything except swimming that is useless too. So it feels like You are playing without Racials.

There was just one moment when Argonians was BIS and it was for PvP.

Give people the ability to Polimorf into different Race and we will become Elder Scrolls Orcline in few days.

MaegMaeg

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

Kuratius

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

Your numbers are off if you want the healing done to equal two small set bonuses. Healing done bonuses were buffed fron 2 % to 4 % a few years ago. I think you missed that. The Argonian healing passive is currently massively underpowered and doesn't follow the set bonus efficiency standards they've set for racials, and you want to nerf it more?

ExistingRug61

Kuratius wrote: »

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

Your numbers are off if you want the healing done to equal two small set bonuses. Healing done bonuses were buffed fron 2 % to 4 % a few years ago. I think you missed that. The Argonian healing passive is currently massively underpowered and doesn't follow the set bonus efficiency standards they've set for racials, and you want to nerf it more?

I think he meant adding 129 spell and weapon damage to go with 4% healing done would be two individual bonuses each worth one set bonus, as opposed to one bonus that is worth two (ie: healing at 8% or spell and weapon damage at 258).
So basically give up 2% healing for the 129 damage, which should be a net buff under the standard set bonuses.

Tommy_The_Gun

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Kuratius wrote: »

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

Your numbers are off if you want the healing done to equal two small set bonuses. Healing done bonuses were buffed fron 2 % to 4 % a few years ago. I think you missed that. The Argonian healing passive is currently massively underpowered and doesn't follow the set bonus efficiency standards they've set for racials, and you want to nerf it more?

I think he meant adding 129 spell and weapon damage to go with 4% healing done would be two individual bonuses each worth one set bonus, as opposed to one bonus that is worth two (ie: healing at 8% or spell and weapon damage at 258).
So basically give up 2% healing for the 129 damage, which should be a net buff under the standard set bonuses.

Would be nice, but tbh, since 6% healing done is based on "old" gear set bonus (2%) it is 3x times of its strength...
So, if it would be updated to current standards, and based on "current" healing gear set bonus (4%) it would be 12% (3 x 4%, since it is 3x times of healing gear set bonus).

This would actually be quite substantial. This passive does not boost dmg potenial - only healing - so it would make sense for it to be strong. Definitely would help in a "healer" role - maybe even moved Agonians closer to Bretons and other mag races so it will be harder to determine "bis" healer race.

TheImperfect

My argonian is a magicka sorceror so I don't suppose the stamina will be all that useful. I never really used the potion racial much I made the character more for rp reasons but I might have gotten to it. I still can I guess but it will be less effective. I guess it's an ok racial for argonians that are more stamina based.

Girl_Number8

Argonians are now good for posh pair of heels. They need some luv before live.

ExistingRug61

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Kuratius wrote: »

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

Your numbers are off if you want the healing done to equal two small set bonuses. Healing done bonuses were buffed fron 2 % to 4 % a few years ago. I think you missed that. The Argonian healing passive is currently massively underpowered and doesn't follow the set bonus efficiency standards they've set for racials, and you want to nerf it more?

I think he meant adding 129 spell and weapon damage to go with 4% healing done would be two individual bonuses each worth one set bonus, as opposed to one bonus that is worth two (ie: healing at 8% or spell and weapon damage at 258).
So basically give up 2% healing for the 129 damage, which should be a net buff under the standard set bonuses.

Would be nice, but tbh, since 6% healing done is based on "old" gear set bonus (2%) it is 3x times of its strength...
So, if it would be updated to current standards, and based on "current" healing gear set bonus (4%) it would be 12% (3 x 4%, since it is 3x times of healing gear set bonus).

This would actually be quite substantial. This passive does not boost dmg potenial - only healing - so it would make sense for it to be strong. Definitely would help in a "healer" role - maybe even moved Agonians closer to Bretons and other mag races so it will be harder to determine "bis" healer race.

Under the "old" set bonus of 2%, if we calculate all the argonian passives set worth it would be over budget compared to other races.
So while I get when this was created that's what the set bonus was, I think we are better off simply looking at the passives Argonian has now using the standard set bonuses we have now. And in this context the total set worth is about right.

And specifically, in the case of each races third passive, on average these are all worth 2x a current set bonus or ~110% of a mundus. All the races with a "simple" bonus follow this: Altmer, Orc, Khajiit, Breton.
So arguing that Argonian should have 3x set bonus worth last passive seems a bit out of place, even if this is what it "used" to be worth. Especially when Argonian actually has more set worth in its first two passives than other races do under the current set bonus worth, which is why incidentally it is somewhat mathematically balanced for Argonian's last passive to only be worth 1.5x a set bonus. If this was to increase to be 2x, which I have no issue with, they would need to give something up just a little from one of the first two passives. But I think 3x would be out of place.

Like I have said in all my posts on Argonians this update: I'm not trying to say that they are fine and don't need adjustment, I think their passives are weak in gameplay terms compared to the other races. But using ZOS's method of equating set bonuses, they are not mathematically under-budgeted set bonus wise.
Hence I think suggesting flat buffs to their passives is going to fall on deaf ears to ZOS as they will just think "but we can't increase Argonian's - they are already at power budget".

As such I sort of agree with the approach suggested by @MaegMaeg - he is suggesting adding something that is more universally useful at the cost of taking away something less universally useful, while still trying to keep the budget about the same. Taking away a little bit of healing done to add spell and weapon damage isn't necessarily the direction I would have taken it (for instance personally I think the health is the best thing to remove as health is easier to come by this update, and if that gets taken we could simply replace it with a set line's worth of something more useful, like damage, healing, or increased potion passive), but I like the approach behind it.

Lumenn

Zos I hope is reading this. Under the nord thread they mention how bad argonian is. Under the general character thread they mention how bad argonian is. Unofficial thread, yup, how bad argonian is. Every other thread argonian is mentioned as being bad, even when advocating for their own race. Your whole community is saying argonian is in a bad place Zos, please do something.

Kuratius

If I had to make a wish list, it'd be a passive that grants resources to a target you heal.
It'd be very interesting for healers & it'd be a bery unique passive. It could even justify the other passives being weaker than usual.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Argonian actually has more set worth in its first two passives than other races do under the current set bonus worth,

I don't think that's true.
They have a normal resource bonus size-wise (and due to the fact that it's split instead of being concentrated, I think it should actually be a higher total than 2000 resources, see e.g Khajit, Nord, so with that in mind the resource bonus is actually underperforming) and the potion passive is generally expensive and underperforms compared to other racials if you aren't building for it. You usually don't want to be popping potions on cooldown anyways because it wastes most of the resources.

Taking these rather severe drawbacks into account, the potion passive should be overbudgeted slightly to make Argonians worth playing outside of potion builds.

There isn't a good way to fix this other than moving some of the resource sustain into a different type of passive, e.g. resource restore upon healing done (a bit like the one warden has) or a type of passive regen.
Heck, maybe even add a small amount of resource restore for the target healed. It doesn't even have to be particularly strong in that case to make Argonian instantly very interesting for healers & you won't get lots of complaints from pvp players due to the potion passive.

ExistingRug61

Kuratius wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Argonian actually has more set worth in its first two passives than other races do under the current set bonus worth,

I don't think that's true.
They have a normal resource bonus size-wise (and due to the fact that it's split instead of being concentrated, I think it should actually be a higher total than 2000 resources, see e.g Khajit, Nord, so with that in mind the resource bonus is actually underperforming) and the potion passive is generally expensive and underperforms compared to other racials if you aren't building for it. You usually don't want to be popping potions on cooldown anyways because it wastes most of the resources.

I have the full calculations done in this post which shows this. I even consider the argonian stats a tri-stat (split across the two passives) to try to reduce its worth, but even with that its still ahead.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560455/for-information-all-races-set-bonus-equivalent-worth-in-current-patch#latest

However, it is done using the set bonuses as established at the moment. As mentioned in that post, I could easily be convince that the resistance values are contributing too much to the set worth, so if that was reduced it would definitely lower argonian's worth value.

Plus as we discussed it also overvalues some passives that have uptimes or cooldowns - this also affects argonians if the potion passive isn't used on cooldown.

All of that said, now that I've done that post, I think its actually somewhat of a flawed basis of comparison due to all these issues.

Koronach

If they don't do anything than that says a lot. Argonians are considered the least liked and played race in the series. They stuck us with Healer and Tank when Argonians had low hp in every game. Healer and Tank are the most disliked and least played roles in MMORPG history. Argonians have whats considered the weakest racial passives in the game. Anyone else seeing some serious bias here?

Dr_Ganknstein

One thing I like about my argonian stamina NB ganker is when I know a new snipe nerf is about to hit I'll play him on live so I'll kinda see how weak my orc, dark elf NBs snipes will hit for, once the nerf comes out.

Koronach

Lets see a compilation of Argonians descriptions and stats over the games. (If I post the pics right, don't usually post pics)
Ok lets look at Arena

Ok now Daggerfall

Morrowind

Oblivion

Skyrim


So what did they do look at Argonians for 10 seconds? They saw the Int across the series and the Restoration bonus in Skyrim and said ok Healers, which I'm fine with. Then they ignored everything else and looked at Daggerfall "Some are regarded well as warriors." Oh look lets make them HP tanks while ignoring the fact every game says Thief or Assassin, makes sense Shadowscales *cough*. Even Morrowinds Ideal Character section says they can make the finest Nightblades. Total disregard for an entire races lore. They were always a Magic and Stamina race and they are trying to shoe horn them into something they were never well known for. (Sorry if the pictures are too small. Right click and open in new window or tab if you have to.)

Josira

We back to where we began lads...

Massacre_Wurm

Dont care. I am using argonians only for RP flavor anyway.
It will be good race for healers and tanks ( not best just good ) , okay-ish race for mag dd and bad for stam dd regardless of these changes.

Koronach

Not

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

This does make way more sense if you look at Argonians in past TES games and lore. I feel stupid for not thinking of this sooner, I think since they based Argonian culture off Mesoamericans. I think they got Tank from the Mesoamerican warriors. If that's true, that's cool and all but totally wrong. To base their role off an in real life culture instead of what they actually are in the TES series is not cool. That's a huge disservice to fans of Argonians who played them in every game, as well as the lore.

MaegMaeg

Since there was some confusion about my post earlier, this is what I meant. Argonian passives should be changed to something like that:

Life Mender(currently most useless bs): 4% healing done + 129 spell and weapon dmg

Argonian Resistance: 2310 disease + poison resistance

Rescourceful: 1000 magicka + stamina, drinking a potion you restore 4000 mag+stam+hp


It's a mix from what we got on life and current PTS + removing HP bonus but adding spell and weapon dmg instead. This would bring Argonians closer to the BiS races AND fits their Lore description from other games (nice compilation btw @Koronach).

I really wish ZOS would narrow the gap between BiS races and the others, so people can play their favorite races without suffering from to many disadvantages.

wastelandexplorer1

idk i think for pve its a nerf but for pvp i think its ok cuz if u run a lizard in pvp u tend to run it for the burst of resources when u pop a pot not the recovery in the long run but i think imperials will be new bis with their 6% cost reduction across the board

Faulgor

Koronach wrote: »

Not

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

This does make way more sense if you look at Argonians in past TES games and lore. I feel stupid for not thinking of this sooner, I think since they based Argonian culture off Mesoamericans. I think they got Tank from the Mesoamerican warriors. If that's true, that's cool and all but totally wrong. To base their role off an in real life culture instead of what they actually are in the TES series is not cool. That's a huge disservice to fans of Argonians who played them in every game, as well as the lore.

I think they got the tank role from Skyrim's Histskin ability that increases health recovery fro 60 seconds. There's nothing else that could even hint at them being durable.

Just like there's aboslutely nothing in the lore that could indicate Orcs being fast runners (everything points to the opposite), except for a bug in Morrowind where heavier races were faster.

Ratzkifal

Faulgor wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Not

MaegMaeg wrote: »

Argonians needed a buff badly and now they got nerfed even more. +1k stam won't save it.

In addition they should get 129 spell and weapon dmg to encourage mage/assassin playstyles (which is what Argonians are known for). Also healers benefit from spell dmg more than from healing done.

To balance this, they can reduce the healing done from 6% to 4%. That would be two small set bonuses instead of one big one.
And maybe reduce the HP bonus.

This does make way more sense if you look at Argonians in past TES games and lore. I feel stupid for not thinking of this sooner, I think since they based Argonian culture off Mesoamericans. I think they got Tank from the Mesoamerican warriors. If that's true, that's cool and all but totally wrong. To base their role off an in real life culture instead of what they actually are in the TES series is not cool. That's a huge disservice to fans of Argonians who played them in every game, as well as the lore.

I think they got the tank role from Skyrim's Histskin ability that increases health recovery fro 60 seconds. There's nothing else that could even hint at them being durable.

Just like there's aboslutely nothing in the lore that could indicate Orcs being fast runners (everything points to the opposite), except for a bug in Morrowind where heavier races were faster.

I like the Argonian healing factor in Skyrim. It makes them look more amphibian because of how many amphibians can recover from severe injuries (the axolotl comes to mind). So I would honestly keep that, but instead of forcing them to be tanks I would probably make it a flat bonus to health recovery instead of their healing done bonus and potion boost. For PvP this would make Argonians able to shrug off enemy pressure more easily, similar to Orcs but also very different.

I might write up a full rework of Argonian racial passives and put it here later because I am feeling inspired and Argonians deserve better :P

Ratzkifal

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

exeeter702

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

Good suggestions, but losing the healing done passive and giving health recovery would neuter my magblade. Keep healing done / recieved and toss health recovery, and keep everything else.

Ratzkifal

exeeter702 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

Good suggestions, but losing the healing done passive and giving health recovery would neuter my magblade. Keep healing done / recieved and toss health recovery, and keep everything else.

I was thinking about that for quite a while. The bonus to healing done is pretty weak considering what other races like Altmer and Dunmer, now Orcs too get from their bonus to spell damage. It's also not as flexible as spell damage or health recovery.

But you are right that it is the only thing I currently look at, rather than the potion passive, when I think about making a character an Argonian. Even though there is little to no info about Argonians being good at healing with Skyrim being the only game where they got a bonus to Restoration. That's why I ultimately decided against it, but I can see why someone else would want to keep it (especially on magNB). It really is a tough one.

Tommy_The_Gun

And on top of horrible 30% Resourceful passive nerf, this passive is now also affected by Battle Spirit... meaning that 3125 health restored (when you drink a potion) is now 50% less... so 1562...


...

So that is like what... 70 health recovery ? ? (that you need to drink potion in order to get lol) ZOS, try to be serious for once, it is hilarious at this point... *laughs through tears*

So it would seem that they will be even worse race for pvp... worst dps, healer, 2nd worse tank...

I know, it is 100% a bug and not intended. Health recovery and other racial health restore passive (such as Orc's one) is not affected by Battle Spirit. Additionally, Resourceful is not affected by any healing buff (such as mending) but cyro de-buff affects it.

...But something tells me (seeing how we do not even have a racial rebalance official feedback), that it will be ignored and we will have to wait like yet another 2+ years.

Dr_Ganknstein

Yup, I made a video to show that argonian resistance isn't working also and the heal portion of resourceful is effected by battle spirit.
https://youtu.be/9PgqcNXJEzI