[PTS] - Argonian Racial Changes

Tommy_The_Gun

So what do you think about Argonian Racial changes ? I am kinda torn...

+ 1000 stamina (Resourceful: now grants both mag & stam bonus).
+/- Argonian Resistance: Both Poison & Diseased resistance, but no status effect immunity.
- Potion passive got nerfed quite nasty - resources restored down to 3125 from 4000.
- Live mender is still to low to be relevant (6% only).

So it kinda feels um... bad as Argonians kinda lose their unique potion passive play-style (you will have to run potion cooldown enchants now, so you will lose A LOT passive recovery). Sure, they got some stamina bonus, but that wont make them good stam dps for sure, not even mediocre. Also Life Mender passive was kinda forgotten... it is still 6% Healing bonus, that is based on old 2% gear set healing bonus, that was buffed long time ago to 4%...

So, what are your thoughts ? ?

YandereGirlfriend

Feels like a nerf to me.

The potion bonus was easily the best thing about the class and now it's been nerfed by ~25%.

I would much preferred a buff to their Healing Done stat - from 6% to 10% at least.

Anyron

I think argonians got buff, 1 k max stamina is nice.. And that potion resource nerf isnt that bad.. Usually u get only 2/3 of resources anyway
For resistances? Its like neutral - got buffed and nerfed
argonians are fine

ankeor

Well potion passive is almost always partially wasted so..
I would call it a win with extra stam.

DreadDaedroth

The resource return on potions was reduced too drastically.
It was already reduced during other class rebalance. At least give them 3% healing received back.

emilyhyoyeon

I play an argonian quite a bit and I never liked the potion passive. Not because it was weak or anything, I just don't like it. I like the max stamina addition. I think I'll be really happy with this change although their racials could still be thematically better

Ronin37

Extra stam is nice

Tommy_The_Gun

Anyron wrote: »

I think argonians got buff, 1 k max stamina is nice.. And that potion resource nerf isnt that bad.. Usually u get only 2/3 of resources anyway
For resistances? Its like neutral - got buffed and nerfed
argonians are fine

Well, Potion passive "consumes" a potion and does not scale with recoveries - hence it was always greater amount (on paper).

Live - 4000 every 45 seconds is 88 per second so it is more or less 177 recovery (unaffected by CP or % bonuses).
PTS - 3125 every 45 seconds is 69 per second so it is more or less 138 recovery (unaffected by CP or % bonuses).

Idk about you, but it is quite a substantial nerf.

Also, keep in mind that this passive "consumes" potions. No potion = no passive, and also it has literally a gold cost.

Tbh. with recent buffs to major/minor buffs provided by potions (Fortitude / Intellect / Endurance) it is far better to have passive recoveries, as potions get Major buffs (40% recovery bonus). So if you do not have base recovery, and use potion cooldow enchants instead - you will have a huge disadvantage.

Argonians were the "sustain" race since ESO launched. They had nothing else. And now, they wont even have a decent sustain compared to others. Sure in the past they at least had decent healing bonus, but now... this 6% is laughable. Imho it should be buffed updated to meet current standards (I explained that shortly in my previous post).

Ratzkifal

I see the immunity removal as a neutral change because all resistances had their immunities removed. It is a nerf, but relative to what other races provide it was neutral, leaving only the added poison resistance and stamina to balance out the nerf to the potion passive.
I feel the potion passive nerf was probably not needed since they already had their smaller than standard bonus to healing done, but as a lore nerd I am happy with it.

exeeter702

ankeor wrote: »

Well potion passive is almost always partially wasted so..
I would call it a win with extra stam.

I respectfully disagree.

Wuerstal

For PvP it might be a minor buff or nothing at all but I abolutely hate the changes.

Argonians are the weakest class in PvE.
Edit: Maybe woodelf? but they got buffed so thats that.
They are only good for tanks. Dps? Neither passives for magicka nor stamina dd. Healers? well better play an Orc, Dunmer, Altmer. 256 spell dmg scale your healing higher than those tiny 6% healing increased. The ONLY thing they had going for them was the potion passive. And that got a nerf. Not a big one. but still.

if you want to play progress and want to play argonian, your only real chance is healing (which is worse than that of Orcs. lol) or Tank. But still: Orcs and Nord make really good tanks too, if not better. so gg.

Dr_Ganknstein

Very underwhelming. Would be better to increase the potion passive closer to 4k. That would help since they have no damage bonuses.

WrathOfInnos

These changes maybe cancel out on an Argonian tank, but for healer and Magicka DPS it’s just an unnecessary sustain nerf with no benefit.

thedoodle_90

Argonian is already the WEAKEST race why do they keep nerfing them?

4k should stay.

IT should be way better than any other regen racial because you have to use a potion ON COOLDDOWN to make it work which costs gold.

Let's not forget much of the recovery is overcapped meaning its not even like that. Meanwhile khajiit pretty much have all the same passives without having to use a potion every 45 seconds and they have the crit modifier as opposed to argonians crappy 6%.

Add another passive to it. Resourcefullness "Buffs you provide last -seconds longer"

Tommy_The_Gun

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

Argonian is already the WEAKEST race why do they keep nerfing them?

4k should stay.

IT should be way better than any other regen racial because you have to use a potion ON COOLDDOWN to make it work which costs gold.

Let's not forget much of the recovery is overcapped meaning its not even like that. Meanwhile khajiit pretty much have all the same passives without having to use a potion every 45 seconds and they have the crit modifier as opposed to argonians crappy 6%.

Add another passive to it. Resourcefullness "Buffs you provide last -seconds longer"

Khajiit has 100 health and 85 mag & stam regen.

Converting current live Argonian potion passive it is something like 177 recovery (unaffected by CP or % bonuses). But, since you can not buff it by passive recovery and in case of Khajiit - you can, Khajiit actually has 100+ recovery on average.

Now the PTS version of Argonian potion passive is more or less 138 recovery (unaffected by CP or % bonuses).

138 (consuming potion) vs 100 (free, "working in the background").

Those values come closer, and are literality the same if you take into account Major buffs that potions provide (40% recovery bonus). So in many cases Khajiit drinking tri-stat potions will have even more tri-stat recovery and almost same recovery for free...

Definitely does not feel right...

phantasmalD

Man, this takes me back. I remember theorycrafting better argonian passives. Man, has it really been 2 years?
Poison resistance and no max stamina was among the major pain ponts iirc, so it's nice to see those issues rectified.

But the potion nerf.... even back 2 years ago it was barely on par with other sustain racials.
And then there's still the big stinker, that damn healing done% racial.

I doubt anything will come out of it, but this is the best chance for this, so let me bring back this idea from the past:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5798274/#Comment_5798274

Silver_Strider wrote: »

...I honestly wish you'd stop Shoehorning Argonians into Healers. For the love of god, it's among the weakest bits of lore for Argonians but instead of augmenting their rich lore as Shadowscales (which is constantly flaunted in our faces in game) or their mastery of Guerilla Warfare, we just get more of the same Overhealing crap as always. Cut the Max Magic in half, to make room for some Stamina, reduce Healing done to 3% and give us a conditional Weapon/Spell Damage upon healing or consuming a potion. Just something to help out Argonian DPS and make it more lore friendly.

phantasmalD wrote: »

One change that I saw being thrown around and I think would be a fun mechanic is having a buff (like extra damage) trigger on the player or maybe a friendly target when healed. I'd much prefer something like that instead of an uninspiring healing done multiplier.

So something like: Upon healing a friendly target gain +X Spell and Weapon Damage for Y seconds

Less restrictive than the flat +6% heal done bonus AND useful for all roles. And still kinda related to healing :V

There was also this

Kulvar wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Epilog wrote: »

(...)and something more versatile in place of the +6% healing (wich is kind of agains their new rules).(...)

Yeah, that's my main gripe as well. It's a boring, limited and not even particularly strong passive, was really hoping they would come up with something new. Argos are the only race that didn't get anything new to theorycraft, just pure nerfs (even if some of those nerfs were deserved).

But maybe something like "increase damage with DoTs and increased healing with HoTs".

Yeah, that could be something, "over time skills are X% stronger". I mean I'm not sure if it's particularly lore friendly but it'd gives argos a specific flavour and is useful for more than just one role.
Or "your buffs are 3% stronger/longer"

According to the new "rules", it would be something like
• You get +129 Spell and Weapon Damage for the calculation of your over time effects
• +3 seconds to minor buffs you apply

Man, I just really wish it could be a cooler passive. Just....anything.

Kuratius

phantasmalD wrote: »

Man, this takes me back. I remember theorycrafting better argonian passives. Man, has it really been 2 years?
Poison resistance and no max stamina was among the major pain ponts iirc, so it's nice to see those issues rectified.

But the potion nerf.... even back 2 years ago it was barely on par with other sustain racials.
And then there's still the big stinker, that damn healing done% racial.

I doubt anything will come out of it, but this is the best chance for this, so let me bring back this idea from the past:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5798274/#Comment_5798274

Silver_Strider wrote: »

...I honestly wish you'd stop Shoehorning Argonians into Healers. For the love of god, it's among the weakest bits of lore for Argonians but instead of augmenting their rich lore as Shadowscales (which is constantly flaunted in our faces in game) or their mastery of Guerilla Warfare, we just get more of the same Overhealing crap as always. Cut the Max Magic in half, to make room for some Stamina, reduce Healing done to 3% and give us a conditional Weapon/Spell Damage upon healing or consuming a potion. Just something to help out Argonian DPS and make it more lore friendly.

phantasmalD wrote: »

One change that I saw being thrown around and I think would be a fun mechanic is having a buff (like extra damage) trigger on the player or maybe a friendly target when healed. I'd much prefer something like that instead of an uninspiring healing done multiplier.

So something like: Upon healing a friendly target gain +X Spell and Weapon Damage for Y seconds

Less restrictive than the flat +6% heal done bonus AND useful for all roles. And still kinda related to healing :V

There was also this

Kulvar wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Epilog wrote: »

(...)and something more versatile in place of the +6% healing (wich is kind of agains their new rules).(...)

Yeah, that's my main gripe as well. It's a boring, limited and not even particularly strong passive, was really hoping they would come up with something new. Argos are the only race that didn't get anything new to theorycraft, just pure nerfs (even if some of those nerfs were deserved).

But maybe something like "increase damage with DoTs and increased healing with HoTs".

Yeah, that could be something, "over time skills are X% stronger". I mean I'm not sure if it's particularly lore friendly but it'd gives argos a specific flavour and is useful for more than just one role.
Or "your buffs are 3% stronger/longer"

According to the new "rules", it would be something like
• You get +129 Spell and Weapon Damage for the calculation of your over time effects
• +3 seconds to minor buffs you apply

Man, I just really wish it could be a cooler passive. Just....anything.

I've talked about this before, but one of the things that would make argonians really stand out would be a passive that grants resources for healing, either to themselves or to others. Granting resources to other players would actually instantly make them BiS for healing without affecting their overall power level in e.g. solo pvp if it's balanced against the potion passive.

xaraan

They should get the stam, that's a good change, but the potion nerf was unneeded IMO.

It's a passive unlike any other racial that requires a consumable to use before it's even useful and you use it whether you need it or not, so if only one resource is low, you get no benefit from the other two. So it's not as "stat dense" as it seems when you just calculate it as if you are always getting that amount of resources every time.

Mettaricana

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So what do you think about Argonian Racial changes ? I am kinda torn...

+ 1000 stamina (Resourceful: now grants both mag & stam bonus).
+/- Argonian Resistance: Both Poison & Diseased resistance, but no status effect immunity.
- Potion passive got nerfed quite nasty - resources restored down to 3125 from 4000.

So it kinda feels um... bad as Argonians kinda lose their unique potion passive play-style (you will have to run potion cooldown enchants now, so you will lose A LOT passive recovery). Sure, they got some stamina bonus, but that wont make them good stam dps for sure, not even mediocre. Also Life Mender passive was kinda forgotten... it is still 6% Healing bonus, that is based on old 2% gear set healing bonus, that was buffed long time ago to 4%...

So, what are your thoughts ? ?

I don't see any other race able to chug a potion and get 3k resources back?

YandereGirlfriend

Mettaricana wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So what do you think about Argonian Racial changes ? I am kinda torn...

+ 1000 stamina (Resourceful: now grants both mag & stam bonus).
+/- Argonian Resistance: Both Poison & Diseased resistance, but no status effect immunity.
- Potion passive got nerfed quite nasty - resources restored down to 3125 from 4000.

So it kinda feels um... bad as Argonians kinda lose their unique potion passive play-style (you will have to run potion cooldown enchants now, so you will lose A LOT passive recovery). Sure, they got some stamina bonus, but that wont make them good stam dps for sure, not even mediocre. Also Life Mender passive was kinda forgotten... it is still 6% Healing bonus, that is based on old 2% gear set healing bonus, that was buffed long time ago to 4%...

So, what are your thoughts ? ?

I don't see any other race able to chug a potion and get 3k resources back?

They don't need to because their base sustain is likely already better.

Drayzon

I for one feel this is bitter/sweet kinda deal, 1k stam is cool and all, but stam dose not add much to dps overall and the hit to the potion passive hurts, no change the the pointless healing passive is also pretty bad to be honest, it would be so much better having it changed for a weapon or spell damage passive or a mix of the two.

Lumenn

Not going to lie I was hoping for something...more... than one glyph and a potion nerf.

stefj68

total nerf on that hope i get enough race change token to change all my argonians to something else

potion passive was our bread and butter for that races

colossalvoids

Honestly I thought they'll buff potion one but oh well, it got worse. I want to justify playing one but just can't.

Faulgor

I'm just happy they finally respect the Argonian lore as skirmishers.

Tommy_The_Gun

So I was kinda hoping that maybe new CP system has some new passives so it is the reason why Resourceful passive got nerfed this bad... When I logged in on pts all I have found was this:

So with CP, there is:
- 6 second window to use heal ability after drinking potion up to 75% cheaper.
- 150 stam / mag / health recovery.
- 10% chance not to consume a potion when drinking it.

I wont lie, I was thinking that maybe there is a passive that reduces potion cooldown or adds additional resources restore when drinking potion... but non of it is there...

In short - Despite stamina bonus - Argonian seems to have worst passives after this update. Previously it was debatable if worst race is Wood Elf or Argonian (in terms of passives) but now it clear as if those changes will go live - Argonians wont be even decent choice for a tank... and seeing how Orcs all of the sudden are better healers only shows how weak & bad Argonian Passives are...

Ratzkifal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So I was kinda hoping that maybe new CP system has some new passives so it is the reason why Resourceful passive got nerfed this bad... When I logged in on pts all I have found was this:

So with CP, there is:
- 6 second window to use heal ability after drinking potion up to 75% cheaper.
- 150 stam / mag / health recovery.
- 10% chance not to consume a potion when drinking it.

I wont lie, I was thinking that maybe there is a passive that reduces potion cooldown or adds additional resources restore when drinking potion... but non of it is there...

In short - Despite stamina bonus - Argonian seems to have worst passives after this update. Previously it was debatable if worst race is Wood Elf or Argonian (in terms of passives) but now it clear as if those changes will go live - Argonians wont be even decent choice for a tank... and seeing how Orcs all of the sudden are better healers only shows how weak & bad Argonian Passives are...

Since the last time we talked about this I came up with/found two builds where Argonians are the best choice actually. None of them are good at optimised content, but they are fun.

One build is an Argonian NB wearing Arkasis with potion cooldown reduction glyphs for maximum ultimate generation on potion use, which isn't even a selfish setup. The new set granting Major Heroism is probably going to be better so there's that...

The other build is a vampire healer setup. You wear Vampire Lord on stage 4 and Ring of the Pale order and use Simmering Frenzy to increase your Spell damage like crazy. Since you are the healer, the restrictions of not receiving healing don't apply to you which allows you to reach crazy spell damage values of 6000 and more. At that point the Argonian passive is stronger than the Altmer one and it also helps with reaching even higher numbers in the first place. You are a damage dealer but your heals are so strong that a single radiating regeneration keeps the group alive. You are very very vulnerable to fire damage and die easily if you are not careful, but Argonian is definitely the best choice for it.

thedoodle_90

I think the potion resource nerf is because there are no longer % regen CP points so the other +regen racials got nerfed as well by like 20%

JobooAGS

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So I was kinda hoping that maybe new CP system has some new passives so it is the reason why Resourceful passive got nerfed this bad... When I logged in on pts all I have found was this:

So with CP, there is:
- 6 second window to use heal ability after drinking potion up to 75% cheaper.
- 150 stam / mag / health recovery.
- 10% chance not to consume a potion when drinking it.

I wont lie, I was thinking that maybe there is a passive that reduces potion cooldown or adds additional resources restore when drinking potion... but non of it is there...

In short - Despite stamina bonus - Argonian seems to have worst passives after this update. Previously it was debatable if worst race is Wood Elf or Argonian (in terms of passives) but now it clear as if those changes will go live - Argonians wont be even decent choice for a tank... and seeing how Orcs all of the sudden are better healers only shows how weak & bad Argonian Passives are...

Try redguard on that list of worse races before you consider bosmer.

Tommy_The_Gun

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

I think the potion resource nerf is because there are no longer % regen CP points so the other +regen racials got nerfed as well by like 20%

Maybe... but why they buffed Breton then ?

Spell Attunement: Increased the Magicka Recovery granted from this passive to 130, up from 100.

Does not make much sense tbh to buff best mag sustain race and at the same time nerf other race that pretty much has sustain and nothing else...
It simply looks to me as if they balanced it with their spreadsheet standards, but forgot about kiss-curse effect that Argonian potion passive has...

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So I was kinda hoping that maybe new CP system has some new passives so it is the reason why Resourceful passive got nerfed this bad... When I logged in on pts all I have found was this:

So with CP, there is:
- 6 second window to use heal ability after drinking potion up to 75% cheaper.
- 150 stam / mag / health recovery.
- 10% chance not to consume a potion when drinking it.

I wont lie, I was thinking that maybe there is a passive that reduces potion cooldown or adds additional resources restore when drinking potion... but non of it is there...

In short - Despite stamina bonus - Argonian seems to have worst passives after this update. Previously it was debatable if worst race is Wood Elf or Argonian (in terms of passives) but now it clear as if those changes will go live - Argonians wont be even decent choice for a tank... and seeing how Orcs all of the sudden are better healers only shows how weak & bad Argonian Passives are...

Try redguard on that list of worse races before you consider bosmer.

Redguards are in such a bad spot that people regularly forget about them!