Remove the changes to armor

merpins

I don't mind the armor changes. Light armor makes sense, but I mean heavy armor doesn't really. Heavy armor is there to protect you from all sources, so why is it getting the decreased resistance to magic? I don't use heavy armor on any of my toons since I don't play tank, but it doesn't make sense. I think it should be a buff to physical, no buff or detriment to magical, and the other stats stay the same as the change. Make the magic resist nerf on medium armor instead since that makes more sense than heavy (even if I'd hate it since half my toons are stam dps, but it would make more sense).

crazywolfpusher

renne wrote: »

The increased dodge roll cost and being slower sprinting make sense because it's heavy armour. HEAVY.

Taking more damage on the other hand makes absolutely no sense because you're having more protection, unless they think because your armour is metal it conducts elemental damage (in which case "magic" damage shouldn't be a thing because what even is magic damage meant to be).

I agree.
We already have numerical defenses that do the job of damage mitigation. Putting extra layers of physics on top to have more less mitigation just complicate things instead of add flavour to each type of armor.
To successfully add more complexity and realism to armor types we would need a whole revamp of damage types and armor defenses and to be honest i dont think the game need that.

The penalties and benefits of armor types need to adress dodge cost, block cost, bash cost, movement speed, and resources regeneration. All things that involve motion. The core of ESO active combat system.

For instance, and i know lot of people would disagree but, Heavy and Tanking for that regard should have issues managing their resources but right now Tanking have tons of sustain benefits when should be the contrary.
Maybe tanks could drop the damage boost sets like Alkosh and care more about their own sustain and survavility and gave the role of buffing and sustain back to healers and make them more relevant.

dcmgti

Mauin wrote: »

Brederode wrote: »

What I don’t get is that heavy armor gets a “1% increased magicka damage taken per piece” even though its supposed to offer the best protection out of the three, and medium armor gets a “3% block cost reduction per piece” which would have made infinitely more sense on heavy armor.

Either way, I am not a fan of the penalties and some of the passive changes in general. Especially because they literally say they did it just for “PvP balancing” yet from what I could tell it doesn’t change anything/much for the PvP “balance” while it just hurts the PvE part, especially for light armor users (healers/magicka damage dealers) and heavy armor users (tanks).

This, basically. I main a tank in PvE and the heavy armor changes are just making me go wtf. I'd take 7% increased magic damage, be slower when sprinting, and have a 21% increased cost to dodge roll. Excuse me, what? That makes absolutely zero sense. Heavy armor was the tank armor, meant for, y'know, taking less damage and now we're taking MORE for wearing it? And the dodge roll cost increase is just... Ick. I can't even find the words for that.

If all these changes are being made because of PvP, then include them in Battle Spirit instead of throwing PvE under the bus. Just balance them separately for the love of the gods. It's so frustrating dealing with this patch after patch.

I main a trial tank in PVE and also spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil. I agree. They should be balanced separately 100%.

renne wrote: »

The increased dodge roll cost and being slower sprinting make sense because it's heavy armour. HEAVY.

Taking more damage on the other hand makes absolutely no sense because you're having more protection, unless they think because your armour is metal it conducts elemental damage (in which case "magic" damage shouldn't be a thing because what even is magic damage meant to be).

Just curious if you tank vet DLC dungeons and vet trials? An insane cost increase to roll dodge for tanks combined with increased magic damage is a huge nerf to pve tanks. There are trials and dungeons where the tank can't eat a heavy attack even through block. Who in their right mind wants to tank vet content with a 21% increase to roll dodge cost?

renne

dcmgti wrote: »

Just curious if you tank vet DLC dungeons and vet trials? An insane cost increase to roll dodge for tanks combined with increased magic damage is a huge nerf to pve tanks. There are trials and dungeons where the tank can't eat a heavy attack even through block. Who in their right mind wants to tank vet content with a 21% increase to roll dodge cost?

I never said it wasn't a huge nerf though???????????????????????? I said it makes sense in terms "heavy" armour costing more to dodge roll because it's HEAVY, which is not even REMOTELY the same thing as saying "lol suck it and eat your nerf, tonk."

I'm a mag player, I know absolutely how much it sucks because I'm getting screwed on block and I don't even build to have stam to start with. Sure, I have cheaper roll dodge, but you absolutely can't roll dodge everything in end game content. And no, I really don't want my vet/end game tanks penalised when it comes to dodge rolling, either.

StarOfElyon

renne wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

Just curious if you tank vet DLC dungeons and vet trials? An insane cost increase to roll dodge for tanks combined with increased magic damage is a huge nerf to pve tanks. There are trials and dungeons where the tank can't eat a heavy attack even through block. Who in their right mind wants to tank vet content with a 21% increase to roll dodge cost?

I never said it wasn't a huge nerf though???????????????????????? I said it makes sense in terms "heavy" armour costing more to dodge roll because it's HEAVY, which is not even REMOTELY the same thing as saying "lol suck it and eat your nerf, tonk."

I'm a mag player, I know absolutely how much it sucks because I'm getting screwed on block and I don't even build to have stam to start with. Sure, I have cheaper roll dodge, but you absolutely can't roll dodge everything in end game content. And no, I really don't want my vet/end game tanks penalised when it comes to dodge rolling, either.

It sucks that magicka characters will get killed on defense against stam even more than before. But I'm waiting to see if ZOS has some counters for this planned.

renne

StarOfElyon wrote: »

renne wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

Just curious if you tank vet DLC dungeons and vet trials? An insane cost increase to roll dodge for tanks combined with increased magic damage is a huge nerf to pve tanks. There are trials and dungeons where the tank can't eat a heavy attack even through block. Who in their right mind wants to tank vet content with a 21% increase to roll dodge cost?

I never said it wasn't a huge nerf though???????????????????????? I said it makes sense in terms "heavy" armour costing more to dodge roll because it's HEAVY, which is not even REMOTELY the same thing as saying "lol suck it and eat your nerf, tonk."

I'm a mag player, I know absolutely how much it sucks because I'm getting screwed on block and I don't even build to have stam to start with. Sure, I have cheaper roll dodge, but you absolutely can't roll dodge everything in end game content. And no, I really don't want my vet/end game tanks penalised when it comes to dodge rolling, either.

It sucks that magicka characters will get killed on defense against stam even more than before. But I'm waiting to see if ZOS has some counters for this planned.

Exactly. There's so many pro-stam changes that ZoS might as well have just said "no mag in PvP" and left it at that.

JayKwellen

Xebov wrote: »

Stamm DDs take Medium. Stam DD gear is only dropping as medium and medium has the magicka passives.

Unless you PvP, in which case the damage medium does was hit unless you go full send and wear 7 medium.

Otherwise, everyone else running medium 5/2 or 5/1/1 took a 5% hit to both weapon damage and crit percent.

Meanwhile heavy gets free, almost permanent, major protection.

Heavy will continue to be a universally better option for most stamina PvP builds outside of everything but niche builds and nightblades, allowing you to build for more tankiness and more damage with little drawback.

Medium will continue to be more elusive, but will lose killing power. Even the 5% increased damage to light wearers won't be quite so painful considering the 5% loss of weapon damage. Medium was typically already a suboptimal choice in the current meta, and these armor changes only exacerbate that problem.

MrGraves

AmendmentI wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I like the changes because it feels more like an rpg and less like a 'this is the way we should do things just because we have already for so long' meta. This game needs changes like this to drive away the old ruts.

But theres nothing you can actually change when we cant change our weights...... what is it driving away when we still have to wear armor in the same weights

In regular RPGS it would be fine, like regular DnD style games. the problem here is ESO is an MMO and you're always interacting with so many people and there are things like pvp, open world pvp, and other competitive game styles such as trials. which means people have to be "as good as possible" rather than their character being strong enough and having fun building whatever character is fun for them. if there were no competitive things in ESO and you didn't have to constantly strive to be at the top it wouldnt be an issue.

Thuragan

AmendmentI wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

That's where crafted sets fill the void my dude offers a new tweak allowing us to run 3/4 using crafted sets may not fit your play style for the gear selected but works well for many others who don't run it that way.

Crafted sets provide nowhere near the same benefits to any of the 4 play styles. Find me a crafted set that provides your group with minor courage. Or provides you with the level of spell critical offered by Mothers Sorrow. Or allows you to gain as much as Relequen. Or buffs overall group damage in the way that Roaring Oppurtunist does.

Mothers Sorrow is crafted you know.

EDIT: yes I made a mistake, mixed it up with being an overland set.

AmendmentI

Thuragan wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

That's where crafted sets fill the void my dude offers a new tweak allowing us to run 3/4 using crafted sets may not fit your play style for the gear selected but works well for many others who don't run it that way.

Crafted sets provide nowhere near the same benefits to any of the 4 play styles. Find me a crafted set that provides your group with minor courage. Or provides you with the level of spell critical offered by Mothers Sorrow. Or allows you to gain as much as Relequen. Or buffs overall group damage in the way that Roaring Oppurtunist does.

Mothers Sorrow is crafted you know.

I think you may have your sets mixed up

SilverKatz

Do any of Dev group , have actually seen a plate armor ? Let alone wearing one and walk around . There is absolutly no sence in the downsides of wearing heavy ,in real life / historical , plate armors.

Light armor shouldnt come with any setbacks too , or in ZOS 's world human gets lamer and dumb when dress daily clothes.

ZaroktheImmortal

I don't see how this will work. Sooo heavy armour takes more damage from magika but less from physical...but then what will tanks use? I mean a tank has to survive all kinds of attacks.

Brederode

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

I don't see how this will work. Sooo heavy armour takes more damage from magika but less from physical...but then what will tanks use? I mean a tank has to survive all kinds of attacks.

What makes it even worse is that a lot of endgame content like trials and veteran dungeon feature more enemies and bosses that do magicka damage than physical damage

echo2omega

Just need to make incentive for stam players to want to wear light armor
[And incentive for mag characters to wear medium armor]

By making passives apply to both martial damage/crit/penetration/etc and magic

Xebov

JayKwellen wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Stamm DDs take Medium. Stam DD gear is only dropping as medium and medium has the magicka passives.

Unless you PvP, in which case the damage medium does was hit unless you go full send and wear 7 medium.

Thats still depending on the way meta goes and if suitable Heavy or Crafted sets exist at that point in time. If the current good ones get nerfed and all of a sudden medium sets become the bees knees again you would still switch back.

But you are right in the point that PvP allows for some odd builds that could make use of it to some degree.

echo2omega wrote: »

Just need to make incentive for stam players to want to wear light armor
[And incentive for mag characters to wear medium armor]

By making passives apply to both martial damage/crit/penetration/etc and magic

That would not solv ethe problem because drop stam dd sets are all medium and drop mag dd sets are all light.

sharquez

some one may have touched on this already but there are stars to increase the amount of damage you can block, for tanks. they sky aint falling.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

As we've removed a few comments that were baiting and non-constructive, this is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Community Rules to avoid thread derailment.

Thank you for your understanding.

AmendmentI

sharquez wrote: »

some one may have touched on this already but there are stars to increase the amount of damage you can block, for tanks. they sky aint falling.

So set your cp to make up for the penalties you get for playing your role.......

StarOfElyon

AmendmentI wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

some one may have touched on this already but there are stars to increase the amount of damage you can block, for tanks. they sky aint falling.

So set your cp to make up for the penalties you get for playing your role.......

Basically.

oregonrob

The solution to this is to have every single armor set in ESO available in all three weights. No more Mad Tinker just in light armor for example. My larger concern is Zenimax trying to bring in two substantial changes at the same time, the one to armor and the one to CP. It would make sense to do them one at a time to give people the chance to adjust and not be doubly frustrated.

Volckodav

Also this is a change to races that is less impactful for real that subjectively really important to people because is like this is something that you cannot change, like you can change your CP or armor..but your race? even beside the love and customization of your own carater super important in MMO.

So yes I this that content can be good but I see a big lack of change management from ZOS, that should have been done step by step with communication and with the community, not hidden and we discover it in release not and we cannot do anything about it.

Xebov

sharquez wrote: »

some one may have touched on this already but there are stars to increase the amount of damage you can block, for tanks. they sky aint falling.

Im a Tank. I wear heavy armor for my role for 3 reasons:
1.) All my Tank sets are Heavy Armor
2.) I need the armor values for damage mitigation
3.) I need the Heavy Armor passives.
Now they added +1% increased magical damage taken. This means that i take 5% more magical damage from all sources while performing my role. I cannot offset this with light armor because all tank sets are only available in heavy. Even if they where available in light i would loose out on alot of useful passives and on armor since light armor only has 50% of the armor value. Which means i would loose no matter what i do and this just because im performing in my role. The only actual way to compensate for this would be spending 50 points in CP to get -5% damage taken from magical attacks. This however would mean that i skill this without getting any actual bonus. Oh and i still have to tank all the bosses of which many are magical to begin with and i dont think that light sandal heroes will take over this one.

Xebov

oregonrob wrote: »

The solution to this is to have every single armor set in ESO available in all three weights.

This would not solve the issue. Light armor only has 50% of Heavies value. If tanks would change armors they would loose out on useful bonuses for their role and get performance hits in mitigation. As a tank you would still end up with alot of penalties, you would just have the choice where you get them.

DreadDaedroth

Really someone proposed less damage done malus for heavy armour?
How much damage should a tank do? 1000 dph(yes h for hour)?
All the main content is already slow enough for tanks.

Dracane

I am still undecisive. The more I consider them, the more I like the changes, although there are some issues as everyone here pointed out.

Some of the benefits and penalties need to be looked at, rearranged and replaced.
I understand that for 5% break free reduction per piece, light armor will need a penalty to make it reasonable. I just wish it would be something else than even more physical damage taken. Light armor already suffers more physical damage because of its pitiful base resistance.

Heavy armor also becomes too good with permanent damage mitigation while CCed. I would like to see some of the light and medium benefits go to heavy (cheaper blocks and cheaper bashing) while the CC immunity damage mitigation gets removed.

Furthermore, I think it's time light and medium grant magicka and stamina per piece.

GrimTheReaper45

oregonrob wrote: »

The solution to this is to have every single armor set in ESO available in all three weights. No more Mad Tinker just in light armor for example. My larger concern is Zenimax trying to bring in two substantial changes at the same time, the one to armor and the one to CP. It would make sense to do them one at a time to give people the chance to adjust and not be doubly frustrated.

Even if they did, sets up to this point have been designed and balanced with weight in mind. Can you imagine magsorcs in heavy necro and alfiq? With shields benefiting from all that resist?

This whole change makes no sense for a game that for the last 6 years has been built with gear weights in mine. We still really cant pick what type of gear we use because of set bonuses and if they made ever set drop in every weight that would be a balance nightmare.

DonGodJoe

People having issues with "Tank needs to be able to survive any kind of damage" mostly for sure forget that you still do a lot of damage considering you should be maximally surviving taken damage..
Therefor my optional choice would be slightly increase the martial defence up and not taking increased magic damage but decreased damage done with weapons and abilities heavily

Again, tank aint supposed to do dmg (nor high amount of dps) as most of you are thinking .. this would also solved the pvp heavy armor playstyle

Xebov

DonGodJoe wrote: »

People having issues with "Tank needs to be able to survive any kind of damage" mostly for sure forget that you still do a lot of damage considering you should be maximally surviving taken damage..

3-4K DPS compared to what do DDs to? 60k+?

GrimTheReaper45

DonGodJoe wrote: »

People having issues with "Tank needs to be able to survive any kind of damage" mostly for sure forget that you still do a lot of damage considering you should be maximally surviving taken damage..
Therefor my optional choice would be slightly increase the martial defence up and not taking increased magic damage but decreased damage done with weapons and abilities heavily

Again, tank aint supposed to do dmg (nor high amount of dps) as most of you are thinking .. this would also solved the pvp heavy armor playstyle

This is a common theme Im seeing. Players want heavy to deal out less damage as the penalty

Xebov

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

This is a common theme Im seeing. Players want heavy to deal out less damage as the penalty

You dont need an extra penalty for this. Heavy armor has no passives that boost damage. There are also nearly no heavy armor based sets that boost damage. So you naturally already have an implicit penalty through lack of bonuses.