Remove the changes to armor

AmendmentI

The above changes were done to help increase the effect that Armor plays on your build, by augmenting your Core Combat Mechanics such as Break Free, Roll Dodge, and Sprint in ways that are not already apparent in the paradigms.

All armor passives now scale per piece of Armor equipped, rather than some of them granting bonuses while wearing 5 pieces or more. This, along with the new penalty and bonus system of Armor, should help diversify build variety and increase the viability of unique options such as 4/3 and all 7 pieces of the same Armor weight being worn.

The penalties for armor weight coupled with the 2 statements above make no sense. For PVE, players aren't given a choice. You can't have a "unique build" in PVE if your best sets are all for the most part light or heavy or medium. It's impossible to do a "4/3" if you need 5 pieces of Siroria or 5 pieces of Yolnahkriin. Armor already does play a large part in determining your build. That's why you don't see stamina dps in some sort of 5 light armor build. Or a tank in 3 light and 2 medium. Players are locked into the weights based on what type of character you want to play. There are a few exceptions but Magicka builds have light armor sets, tanks heavy, stamina has medium, and healers have light. This isn't by choice but it's because of the way armor drops in the game. The new penalties are for the most part forced on you because of the character you choose to play.

I can't go in a trial with a 4/3 build and expect to hit anywhere near what I'd hit with 5 light pieces. Why? Because armor in the game just doesn't function that way. And attempting to mix and match would leave you with incomplete sets and overall weird stats. At best this leaves Magicka builds forced to take extra damage from some sources and increases their costs of block simply because they want to play Mag. At worst this reduces the movement speed of tanks and makes it more costly for them to roll dodge attacks simply for deciding they want to be a tank.

It would be different if players actually had choices here when designing relevant endgame PVE builds. But that's not how the game works. We dont get to decide our weights if we expect to make meaningful contributions to our group. There are a few exceptions to this but the system is pretty cut and dry. Adding in penalties simply for just playing your role in a group isnt healthy for the game and needs to be removed.

Mettaricana

That's where crafted sets fill the void my dude offers a new tweak allowing us to run 3/4 using crafted sets may not fit your play style for the gear selected but works well for many others who don't run it that way.

QuantumPie

I completely agree with all of this. As this stands its a horrendous system and the 15% block cost increase for magicka DPS will be significant and almost completely kill magicka in PvP. I can't possibly foresee how this got green lit but there is clearly a massive lack of understanding as to how the game functions from the dev team. The only way I could see this work is if every set drops in any weight, but that only serves to make everything substantially more grindy and takes the game in the exact opposite direction then what made me initially come back from a long hiatus (transmute system).

AmendmentI

Mettaricana wrote: »

That's where crafted sets fill the void my dude offers a new tweak allowing us to run 3/4 using crafted sets may not fit your play style for the gear selected but works well for many others who don't run it that way.

Crafted sets provide nowhere near the same benefits to any of the 4 play styles. Find me a crafted set that provides your group with minor courage. Or provides you with the level of spell critical offered by Mothers Sorrow. Or allows you to gain as much as Relequen. Or buffs overall group damage in the way that Roaring Oppurtunist does.

QuantumPie

Mettaricana wrote: »

That's where crafted sets fill the void my dude offers a new tweak allowing us to run 3/4 using crafted sets may not fit your play style for the gear selected but works well for many others who don't run it that way.

But a majority of the sets used aren't craftable and there is no way shifting to a 3/4 could even come close to accounting for the losses from that set. All this does is penalize people for going 5/1/1 if they are a magicka DPS or low-skill tank.

dcmgti

The armor changes are insane. My trials tanks don't need a roll dodge cost increase. Do devs know how hard vKA hits the tanks? Or how much damage dragon breathe does in vSS? Almost every trial has a huge amount of damage in magic damage form and plenty of physical attacks that tanks can't just eat through block.

I understand people get mad when they can't X 20 people in Cyrodiil by themselves so they scream the loudest for nerfs. ZOS listens and nerfs vet trial tanks more.

My pvp magplar will have to remain in heavy because why would I wear light armor again and be even squishier than before on top of taking more damage from the new "penalties"

VaxtinTheWolf

I have a 5-Light 2-Heavy Nord Warden Tank that's been experimenting with dual Ice staves, and it works just fine for the most part in 4-man Dungeon content. With these changes however.. Really concerning. I liked doing builds such as this and I'm not sure how viable it'd be anymore but I have yet to personally test any of my characters yet as I'm just waking up.

halucin0g3n

New Champion System will fill in for some I believe. I kind of like the new armor system, it allows magicka players to use heavy armor sets like medusa and have more benefits.

dcmgti

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

I have a 5-Light 2-Heavy Nord Warden Tank that's been experimenting with dual Ice staves, and it works just fine for the most part in 4-man Dungeon content. With these changes however.. Really concerning. I liked doing builds such as this and I'm not sure how viable it'd be anymore but I have yet to personally test any of my characters yet as I'm just waking up.

Ive used double ice staves in some dungeons. Tried in vAS as a main tank just to see.....LOL. That didnt work out to well. But with Nord getting resistances nerfed I won't be trying that anymore. I would change my Nord warden to Imperial like my other tanks if they give us a race change token.

AmendmentI

halucin0g3n wrote: »

New Champion System will fill in for some I believe. I kind of like the new armor system, it allows magicka players to use heavy armor sets like medusa and have more benefits.

That's one of the few exceptions to the typical weights. There arent many though

QuantumPie

halucin0g3n wrote: »

New Champion System will fill in for some I believe. I kind of like the new armor system, it allows magicka players to use heavy armor sets like medusa and have more benefits.

I haven't been able to go onto the PTS yet, but are the numbers the same as live currently? Then it doesn't actually accomplish anything and if other passives are needed for other reasons, you now have an even higher block cost then before

quinten1221

The critical decrease is really bad. My build need those small crit boosts cause its the only way i get a little crit increase.

halucin0g3n

Well, their idea was exactly this I believe, a trade off. Higher damage done implies more taken damage.
Also there's a build diversity as well. Equipping heavy armor set and light set can give you a balanced result. I guess their just trying to encourage build diversity. I'm fine with it, although i'm not a min-maxer.

actosh

halucin0g3n wrote: »

New Champion System will fill in for some I believe. I kind of like the new armor system, it allows magicka players to use heavy armor sets like medusa and have more benefits.

nope, u go and use 7 light for 6,5k pen from your light armor passive

dcmgti

halucin0g3n wrote: »

Well, their idea was exactly this I believe, a trade off. Higher damage done implies more taken damage.
Also there's a build diversity as well. Equipping heavy armor set and light set can give you a balanced result. I guess their just trying to encourage build diversity. I'm fine with it, although i'm not a min-maxer.

A pve tank has no use for light armor though unless they are(were) a nord and pushed the undaunted passive.

DreadDaedroth

Thank you for making once again stuff worse for PvE tanks.

GrimTheReaper45

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Im not a big fan of these changes either, they just dont make a lot of sense.

Were still vary locked into weights by set bonuses. Yes you could run crafted but most of those arnt very good and arnt typically used in pve or pvp. You could maybe work out something where your running certain pieces on jewelry and weapons but even then you have to find a set in the desired weight that has bonuses that apply to your build. Of which there arnt many medium sets with good mag bonuses or light sets with good stam bonuses. Stam has much better heavy sets to utilize then mag that their already running. Also whenever your juggling sets on pieces like that its just really inconvenient. Like most people run one set on body and one set on jewelry and weapons/head shoulders. When you have mismatched sets like that its just really inconvenient because they arnt interchangeable with the rest of your gear.

It really just feels like you guys are trying to force build complexity for the sake of build complexity where it really doesnt fit well and is just confusing for players. No one really has a problem with how gear weights work currently, we might like damage nerfed a bit for heavy in pvp but the mechanics of it we like and dont have a problem with. If your trying to buff or nerf things just buff or nerf them. Why just complicate things?

GrimTheReaper45

halucin0g3n wrote: »

New Champion System will fill in for some I believe. I kind of like the new armor system, it allows magicka players to use heavy armor sets like medusa and have more benefits.

You could just run that on jewelry and weapons or a 5-2 with jewelry head and shoulders. The new changes dont really justify running heavy on the majority of pieces over the current passives. Mag also really doesnt have a good selection of heavy armors to pick from.

crazywolfpusher

PVE wise these changes only hurt tanks with the dodge cost increase...

I'll quote myself tho

" wrote:

I believe the new bonuses and penalties should not affect mitigation values cuz armor numerical value already does that (from the armor defense itself and passives).

Affecting the core mechanics, like they said, dodge, bash, block, break free, movement speed should be enough.

AmendmentI

There are very sets that fall outside of the norm. Even then that still doesnt achieve whatever level of diversity they're looking for. I cant get my 5 piece bonuses if I'm running around in some sort of 3/4 build. If the armor for that even existed and it doesnt

GrimTheReaper45

halucin0g3n wrote: »

Well, their idea was exactly this I believe, a trade off. Higher damage done implies more taken damage.
Also there's a build diversity as well. Equipping heavy armor set and light set can give you a balanced result. I guess their just trying to encourage build diversity. I'm fine with it, although i'm not a min-maxer.

I mean Im fine with a trade off. Just give light and medium more damage taken and heavy less damage done. Reduce resistance on light and medium and less damage done on heavy, it accomplishes the same thing and im perfectly fine with that.

Im also fine with build diversity but this just really doesn't work well with the 5 pc bonuses and existing gear we already have.

dcmgti

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

PVE wise these changes only hurt tanks with the dodge cost increase...

The more they nerf pve tanking the more I'll not want to do it. I don't think they know the amount a resist capped 40k hp tank has to roll dodge in vet DLC dungeons and trials.

Sandman929

AmendmentI wrote: »

There are very sets that fall outside of the norm. Even then that still doesnt achieve whatever level of diversity they're looking for. I cant get my 5 piece bonuses if I'm running around in some sort of 3/4 build. If the armor for that even existed and it doesnt

There aren't 5 piece bonuses anymore. But yes, the dropped armor weight restrictions aren't good with this new system

crazywolfpusher

dcmgti wrote: »

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

PVE wise these changes only hurt tanks with the dodge cost increase...

The more they nerf pve tanking the more I'll not want to do it. I don't think they know the amount a resist capped 40k hp tank has to roll dodge in vet DLC dungeons and trials.

At first i thought the exact same thing but honestly, most tanks find tanking rather easy and boring
Making it a bit more difficult doesnt really hurt tbh

VaxtinTheWolf

Sandman929 wrote: »

There aren't 5 piece bonuses anymore. But yes, the dropped armor weight restrictions aren't good with this new system

The 5-piece armor bonuses dictate that. My Templar uses Powerful Assault for instance, I need 5 pieces of that, so depending on your build you could be using 5 medium, or non if it's on jewelry and weapons. Personally, that character of mine is set up to use 5 Medium and 2 heavy, so don't have a choice in really balancing in more heavy if I wanted to.

Sandman929

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

There aren't 5 piece bonuses anymore. But yes, the dropped armor weight restrictions aren't good with this new system

The 5-piece armor bonuses dictate that. My Templar uses Powerful Assault for instance, I need 5 pieces of that, so depending on your build you could be using 5 medium, or non if it's on jewelry and weapons. Personally, that character of mine is set up to use 5 Medium and 2 heavy, so don't have a choice in really balancing in more heavy if I wanted to.

I misunderstood I think. I thought this was in regard to "wearing 5 peices" bonuses for armor weights.

AmendmentI

Sandman929 wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

There are very sets that fall outside of the norm. Even then that still doesnt achieve whatever level of diversity they're looking for. I cant get my 5 piece bonuses if I'm running around in some sort of 3/4 build. If the armor for that even existed and it doesnt

There aren't 5 piece bonuses anymore. But yes, the dropped armor weight restrictions aren't good with this new system

I must have missed something if there arent 5 piece bonuses anymore. Especially since the new dungeon sets in the notes all have 5 piece bonuses. I'm not talking about passives from the armor skill lines. I'm talking about from the sets themselves. That's a large number of buffs a group would be giving up just to attempt this strange level of diversity

VaxtinTheWolf

@Sandman929

I think that is the topic in question, but my point is also related to it. If you want a certain 5-Piece active, then you don't have the choice other than to deal with the negatives that these armor adjustments will bring depending on how the character is setup.

OtarTheMad

PTS isn't even live yet and people be like:

actosh

Heavy should do less dmg per piece equiped.

GrimTheReaper45

Sandman929 wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

There are very sets that fall outside of the norm. Even then that still doesnt achieve whatever level of diversity they're looking for. I cant get my 5 piece bonuses if I'm running around in some sort of 3/4 build. If the armor for that even existed and it doesnt

There aren't 5 piece bonuses anymore. But yes, the dropped armor weight restrictions aren't good with this new system

they mean 5 pc set bonuses not skill line passives