Is vampire trash currently?

Sephyr

It's pretty bad.

1. I don't know any legitimate raiding group that uses Blood for Blood as a "meta". It hasn't been the meta for Mag DPS since they nerfed the ability after the first week of the changes being live (despite many of us warning them on the PTS that it was going to be overpowered).
2. There's nothing group friendly about the line.
3. Two abilities and the ultimate are pretty much only the most useful, the rest are pretty niche for ganking or cheese parses (Nice 90k+ parse, but good luck using that in a group environment - you'll be missing those buffs/heals unless your group's pretty well put together).
4. Which brings me to the next one, since you can't be healed with those abilities, there's the Ring of the Pale Order. Oh, but you have to give up a monster set, trial weapon, or a five piece.
5. Risks far outweigh the rewards.
6. No incentives to actually feed, so most people just stay at Stage 1 for the stealth passive (which is the same as they did with Supernatural Recovery)

I could go on and on, but I'd rather not repeat the slew of other issues that others have already said.

Katahdin

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

DT-ARR

I enjoy playing as my stage 4 vamp. But I also miss being viable / welcome in group content.

Nova_J

Garbage for just about anything but solo overland content you can run just about anything in. If you want to bring it into more serious content just forget it. Even if you managed too you would probably just be at stage 1/2 and use a single skill, and at that point you may as well just get cured.

WrathOfInnos

Vampire is extremely powerful in PVE. It results in a DPS increase of about 20% over any non-vamp build. Most of the skills and passives are useless though, only Simmering Frenzy and Blood for Blood see any use.

VampireLordLover99

Katahdin wrote: »

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

What's the play style?

Killing yourself for minimal amounts of damage? Being melee without a gap closer? Being entirely magicka damage based despite having skills that drain HP, one of your lowest sources as a magicka light armor character?

It absolutely does not have a unique play style if it's just 'lulz stack dmg win'

Although in this case it's 'lulz try to stack dmg then still lose' because of how weak and underdeveloped the line is.

VampireLordLover99

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Vampire is extremely powerful in PVE. It results in a DPS increase of about 20% over any non-vamp build. Most of the skills and passives are useless though, only Simmering Frenzy and Blood for Blood see any use.

What's your stats on that? I have genuinely ever seen 1 vampire DPS in vet dungeons since Greymoor launched and I do my daily pledges.


Vampire is not extremely powerful in PVE lol. That is just objectively false, because if it were I'd be seeing them as often as I see werewolf packs.

essi2

It's mostly an RP choice atm.

Nova_J

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Vampire is extremely powerful in PVE. It results in a DPS increase of about 20% over any non-vamp build. Most of the skills and passives are useless though, only Simmering Frenzy and Blood for Blood see any use.

Lmfaoo and where are you getting these numbers from? If blood frenzy is getting you a 20% dps increase you weren't doing that much to begin with. I do more dps on my macro with another dot instead lol.

Sephyr

Nova_J wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Vampire is extremely powerful in PVE. It results in a DPS increase of about 20% over any non-vamp build. Most of the skills and passives are useless though, only Simmering Frenzy and Blood for Blood see any use.

Lmfaoo and where are you getting these numbers from? If blood frenzy is getting you a 20% dps increase you weren't doing that much to begin with. I do more dps on my macro with another dot instead lol.

^This.

Furthermore, the fact that those abilities are more of a detriment to group play leads me to suspect that most claiming that it's 'extremely powerful in PvE' probably don't even get into some of the group dungeon challenges, let alone end game raiding.

The fact is, unless you're burst killing things with the ability (which only happens in overland content or PvP)? You're generally doing the same DPS as you are without it if not less.

Vevvev

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Vampire is extremely powerful in PVE. It results in a DPS increase of about 20% over any non-vamp build. Most of the skills and passives are useless though, only Simmering Frenzy and Blood for Blood see any use.

Only powerful things I'm getting out of PVE vampire is the invisibility sprint to skip everything and the Blood for Blood + Pale Order Ring combo to cheese infinite sustain at the cost of less overall damage if I had a full set. Honestly I'd prefer not using the Ring and having the vampire skill line come with the necessary self healing required to fuel its own abilities. Imagine if Vampiric Drain actually was worthwhile to use in a damage dealing rotation...

Katahdin

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

What's the play style?

Killing yourself for minimal amounts of damage? Being melee without a gap closer? Being entirely magicka damage based despite having skills that drain HP, one of your lowest sources as a magicka light armor character?

It absolutely does not have a unique play style if it's just 'lulz stack dmg win'

Although in this case it's 'lulz try to stack dmg then still lose' because of how weak and underdeveloped the line is.

Before they changed it you needed to be vamp for tank for the regen, for stam and mag DPS for the regen, for healer for the regen. I was literally told that as a STAM dps, I HAD to be a vamp to min max for damage to run in a trial group.

Also there were vamps literally everywhere. 90% of the playerbase ran vamps on their characters for both PVE and PVP they were so OP

You shouldnt have to be vamp or WW to do anything in the game.

.

dinokstrunz

Mist form is busted.

Joinovikova

It super op when u exploit mist form with reduction enchants And templar rune. U also get great ultimate ..

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Grianasteri wrote: »

You shouldnt have to be vamp or WW to do anything in the game.

Good thing that was never the case.

WrathOfInnos

@VampireLordLover99 @Nova_J @Sephyr @Vevvev

You can check ESOlogs.com, and see Simmering Frenzy, Pale Order and often BFB on all the top DPS in trials.

I’m not particularly good at the vamp build, still getting used to toggle, but here are a couple of my own examples.






That’s more Spell Damage than I ever had with Thrassian Stranglers when it was good.

Edit: I’ll include numbers here for comparison. My non-vamp Sorc is getting around 83k single on Yolna, so 104k/83k = 25% DPS increase. My non-vamp Warden is hitting around 101k on an Iron Atro so 127k/101k = 26% DPS increase.

Edit 2: Updated with a better example of the power of vamp on Yolna.

VampireLordLover99

Katahdin wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

What's the play style?

Killing yourself for minimal amounts of damage? Being melee without a gap closer? Being entirely magicka damage based despite having skills that drain HP, one of your lowest sources as a magicka light armor character?

It absolutely does not have a unique play style if it's just 'lulz stack dmg win'

Although in this case it's 'lulz try to stack dmg then still lose' because of how weak and underdeveloped the line is.

Before they changed it you needed to be vamp for tank for the regen, for stam and mag DPS for the regen, for healer for the regen. I was literally told that as a STAM dps, I HAD to be a vamp to min max for damage to run in a trial group.

Also there were vamps literally everywhere. 90% of the playerbase ran vamps on their characters for both PVE and PVP they were so OP

You shouldnt have to be vamp or WW to do anything in the game.

.

That has literally nothing to do with what I've said. I'm not talking about how it was before. I'm talking about how it is now.

And how it is now isn't much better than it was before. Except now basically nobody is a vampire because it's that bad of a skill line to play. Not only isn't it fun, but it's very weak.

That's the main thing. Playing as a werewolf makes you feel like a werewolf and is fun to play. Playing as a vampire? I don't feel like a vampire since no vamp in the history of ES has ever operated better at low hp and sacrifices their own life.

VampireLordLover99

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@VampireLordLover99 @Nova_J @Sephyr @Vevvev

You can check ESOlogs.com, and see Simmering Frenzy, Pale Order and often BFB on all the top DPS in trials.

I’m not particularly good at the vamp build, still getting used to toggle, but here are a couple of my own examples.






That’s more Spell Damage than I ever had with Thrassian Stranglers when it was good.

Edit: I’ll include numbers here for comparison. My non-vamp Sorc is getting around 81k single on Yolna, so 97k/81k = 20% DPS increase. My non-vamp Warden is hitting around 101k on an Iron Atro so 127k/101k = 26% DPS increase.

I couldn't imagine using Simmering frenzy with BFB in a trial environment. And have never seen anyone use such in that environment. That absolutely is not sustainable. Simmering frenzy alone in a trial environment without the heal from sated to pick you back up is also not that sustainable. My best estimate is that these are from dummy tests. In which case of course you'll get high DPS. But they aren't an accurate account as to how you'll do in an actual trial where you are cut off from group heals and sometimes buffs. As well as AoEs, one shot mechanics, etc.

Anyone can stand in front of a dummy and safely get up to those numbers with this set up. But in practice in an actual heat of the moment trial? I'm very doubtful.

And even if this were from an actual trial, it's from using the claw swipe and stat steroid portions of vampire. Both of which are not fun.

Also you have perfected trial gear. Which quite frankly is not something available to most trial people and is carrying a lot of that high DPS number.

And without ring of the pale order the build would not function either. Which if an entire skill line relies on an item to be made moderately useful, I'd say that's bad.
So even if we pretend like this would be viable in an actual trial setting, the fact that vampire is mainly used for a stat steroid and a lame melee spammable is not fun nor providing a vampiric gameplay experience.

Essentially your argument, comes down to "With already an amazing, perfected trial set up if 2/6 of the vamp abilities are used then I can get an increase of 20% dps if I also use a ring with it" Unfortunately, that makes things even worse if that were true. Because then vamp would literally just be known as a 20% dps increase for people that arguably don't need a 20% dps increase.

So the point of the skill line being trash, not fun, nor that great still stands. You just were able to pick a couple of the cheesy things out of, in the best case scenario, to increase your dps by a small sum. All of which is loosely glued together by a ring.


EDIT FOR CLARIFCATION: Apologies @WrathOfInnos, for some reason the Yol name literally wooshed right by me. My point in the regard to a live trial setting in that case is very moot. But, the follow up points of it still not being healthy or proof of the skill line being good still very much stands.

Katahdin

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

What's the play style?

Killing yourself for minimal amounts of damage? Being melee without a gap closer? Being entirely magicka damage based despite having skills that drain HP, one of your lowest sources as a magicka light armor character?

It absolutely does not have a unique play style if it's just 'lulz stack dmg win'

Although in this case it's 'lulz try to stack dmg then still lose' because of how weak and underdeveloped the line is.

Before they changed it you needed to be vamp for tank for the regen, for stam and mag DPS for the regen, for healer for the regen. I was literally told that as a STAM dps, I HAD to be a vamp to min max for damage to run in a trial group.

Also there were vamps literally everywhere. 90% of the playerbase ran vamps on their characters for both PVE and PVP they were so OP

You shouldnt have to be vamp or WW to do anything in the game.

.

That has literally nothing to do with what I've said. I'm not talking about how it was before. I'm talking about how it is now.

And how it is now isn't much better than it was before. Except now basically nobody is a vampire because it's that bad of a skill line to play. Not only isn't it fun, but it's very weak.

I am against anything that would make Vamp (or WW for that matter) a must have for everything in the game like it was before.
Making it stronger again would make it a must have and/or OP again which is what everyone that starts these threads wants.

You can use it if you want that kind of play style/flavor but it doesnt make you OP. I still see people that have characters that are vamps and do all the content in the game. Its fine.

WrathOfInnos

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@VampireLordLover99 @Nova_J @Sephyr @Vevvev

You can check ESOlogs.com, and see Simmering Frenzy, Pale Order and often BFB on all the top DPS in trials.

I’m not particularly good at the vamp build, still getting used to toggle, but here are a couple of my own examples.






That’s more Spell Damage than I ever had with Thrassian Stranglers when it was good.

Edit: I’ll include numbers here for comparison. My non-vamp Sorc is getting around 81k single on Yolna, so 97k/81k = 20% DPS increase. My non-vamp Warden is hitting around 101k on an Iron Atro so 127k/101k = 26% DPS increase.

I couldn't imagine using Simmering frenzy with BFB in a trial environment. And have never seen anyone use such in that environment. That absolutely is not sustainable. Simmering frenzy alone in a trial environment without the heal from sated to pick you back up is also not that sustainable. My best estimate is that these are from dummy tests. In which case of course you'll get high DPS. But they aren't an accurate account as to how you'll do in an actual trial where you are cut off from group heals and sometimes buffs. As well as AoEs, one shot mechanics, etc.

Anyone can stand in front of a dummy and safely get up to those numbers with this set up. But in practice in an actual heat of the moment trial? I'm very doubtful.

Also you have perfected trial gear. Which quite frankly is not something available to most trial people and is carrying a lot of that high DPS number.

That first one is from veteran Yolnahkriin hard mode, a trial boss where everyone receives massive amounts of incoming damage from Focus Fire. Pale Order outheals this mechanic + Simmering + Blood for Blood. It’s dangerous, one wrong move and you’re dead, healers cannot help. Certainly not for everyone, but it’s by far the most powerful build in trials.

VampireLordLover99

Katahdin wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

What's the play style?

Killing yourself for minimal amounts of damage? Being melee without a gap closer? Being entirely magicka damage based despite having skills that drain HP, one of your lowest sources as a magicka light armor character?

It absolutely does not have a unique play style if it's just 'lulz stack dmg win'

Although in this case it's 'lulz try to stack dmg then still lose' because of how weak and underdeveloped the line is.

Before they changed it you needed to be vamp for tank for the regen, for stam and mag DPS for the regen, for healer for the regen. I was literally told that as a STAM dps, I HAD to be a vamp to min max for damage to run in a trial group.

Also there were vamps literally everywhere. 90% of the playerbase ran vamps on their characters for both PVE and PVP they were so OP

You shouldnt have to be vamp or WW to do anything in the game.

.

That has literally nothing to do with what I've said. I'm not talking about how it was before. I'm talking about how it is now.

And how it is now isn't much better than it was before. Except now basically nobody is a vampire because it's that bad of a skill line to play. Not only isn't it fun, but it's very weak.

I am against anything that would make Vamp (or WW for that matter) a must have for everything in the game like it was before.
Making it stronger again would make it a must have and/or OP again which is what everyone that starts these threads wants.

You can use it if you want that kind of play style/flavor but it doesnt make you OP. I still see people that have characters that are vamps and do all the content in the game. Its fine.

Nobody is wanting to make it a must have dear lord.

Making it stronger would absolutely not make it a must have. As right now it is literally so weak it doesn't even compare to werewolf, which is objectively way better.

At the moment the play style and flavor does nothing but make you weaker. Nobody here wants vampires to be OP. I wouldn't assume people wanting the skill line to be fun and optionally viable means "lul we want it to be OP"

And for every person that says they see people being vampires and doing content, there's at least 5-10 others that don't and/or have been kicked from content for being a vampire.

VampireLordLover99

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@VampireLordLover99 @Nova_J @Sephyr @Vevvev

You can check ESOlogs.com, and see Simmering Frenzy, Pale Order and often BFB on all the top DPS in trials.

I’m not particularly good at the vamp build, still getting used to toggle, but here are a couple of my own examples.






That’s more Spell Damage than I ever had with Thrassian Stranglers when it was good.

Edit: I’ll include numbers here for comparison. My non-vamp Sorc is getting around 81k single on Yolna, so 97k/81k = 20% DPS increase. My non-vamp Warden is hitting around 101k on an Iron Atro so 127k/101k = 26% DPS increase.

I couldn't imagine using Simmering frenzy with BFB in a trial environment. And have never seen anyone use such in that environment. That absolutely is not sustainable. Simmering frenzy alone in a trial environment without the heal from sated to pick you back up is also not that sustainable. My best estimate is that these are from dummy tests. In which case of course you'll get high DPS. But they aren't an accurate account as to how you'll do in an actual trial where you are cut off from group heals and sometimes buffs. As well as AoEs, one shot mechanics, etc.

Anyone can stand in front of a dummy and safely get up to those numbers with this set up. But in practice in an actual heat of the moment trial? I'm very doubtful.

Also you have perfected trial gear. Which quite frankly is not something available to most trial people and is carrying a lot of that high DPS number.

That first one is from veteran Yolnahkriin hard mode, a trial boss where everyone receives massive amounts of incoming damage from Focus Fire. Pale Order outheals this mechanic + Simmering + Blood for Blood. It’s dangerous, one wrong move and you’re dead, healers cannot help. Certainly not for everyone, but it’s by far the most powerful build in trials.

Yup, I edited my original response due to this. Literally wooshed right by me, apologies on that.

But, unfortunately, my other points of a 20% increase of dps from 2 abilities being held loosely together by an item doesn't prove that the skill line in a normal sense isn't quite bad and not fun to play for people who aren't trying to push top-tier raids and want to make use of the class. I also dont consider tossing chunks of stats around to be a unique play style.

And also like you said, this set up is very dangerous and one might argue it would be better just to play like a normal trial person instead of taking the chance with this set up. Unless you're pushing for top-tier leaderboards, I do not know if this set up would even be worth taking considering the risk.

This is essentially the equivalent of celebrities pretending to have had an issue with the 'lockdown' last year, if you want an IRL analogy. The majority of the player population does not have the coordination your raid group has nor that level of very, very, very hard to get gear and just want a viable, optional play style.

Your group is very skilled and reliable and you all are literally in the top 1% of this game. You have perfect gear and more than likely enough synergy to take the flat increase of damage from the two abilities here and make way more use of it than an average player.

I hope you can understand how it's a bit unrealistic to say that the skill line itself is good if you, an already perfect player essentially, can use just the two most stat-chonky spells from the list. At that point it's just snagging the most basic of things that increase damage output, it isnt about playing as a vampire or anything like that. It's about doing what you can to boost your damage in your already very skilled environment.

Like, Im happy you can make use of two skills from it, but I wouldn't go around saying that means the line is good. Because it isn't. You're just able to make use of eviscerate and blood frenzy because all that matters when you're that high up there on the gear and raid group charts is 'how can i deal more damage'

XomRhoK

My biggest problem with vampire skill line is that ZOS totally missed aesthetic in visual and sound aspects. Vampire skills all became oversaturated, bright, fairy purple pink splashes, with horrible out of place sound effects. I were ready to change my gameplay style after rework to adjust to new skill mechanics, but i can't handle this new visual and sound effects, so i stopped playing for half a year now. In addition they designed vampire so it perfectly fit NightBlade class, but not gave us opportunity to change class, not everyone want to start a new character.

My feedback on PTS from !!! april 2020, about visuals of vampiric skills:

Hi, devs from ZOS, i waited something related to vampires for 3.5 years, any set, skin, skill and at last we will have Chapter about vampires and revamp of vampire skills. At first i were very excited, i hoped for motivation to feed, bite animation for feeding, new interesting, thematic vampire skills. I got motivation to feed and bite animation, but after i saw the direction you have chosen for skills and their visuals i don't wait this skills anymore, all that bothers me now is that you not ruined vampire skills which i use now, on Live servers. And it seems you will ruin all three of them for me..
I don't really care about exact numbers of the skills, i care for visuals, interesting mechanics, interactions and feeling of satisfaction of using skill. All i ask is, please, keep at least one morph in each skill that close by mechanics and visuals to current vampire skills on Live servers.
1) Bat Swarm ultimate.
I will not use current version of Blood Scion ult no matter how ovrpowered it will be, because it looks completely out of place for me, huge Xivkyn, not vampire at all. So, please, move bat swarm visuals to another regular vampire skill. Bat Swarm is so vampiric in visuals, feeling and so satisfying, don't tie it with Blood Scion, because not all vampire players want to use transformation skill for role play reasons, and not all who don't mind transformation will use this interpretation of Blood Scion. Bat swarm visuals can be given to Blood Mist(Swarming Mist) or to some gap closer or dash.
2) Blood Mist.
Firstly, you decreased damage of Blood Mist compared to Baleful Mist by 50%, it were weak AoE already, but i used it in overland content when fought with several monsters and it were very good to trigger some proc sets, because it attacked each 0.5 second on several targets. Now damage is non existent even for overland and it attack each 1 sec, and became worse at triggering procs. Please, increase damage and lower heal, maybe even lower mitigation to exchange for damage.
Secondly, about visuals. Why you made this big red circle under mist? Wanted to make visuals more readable in combat?
But those for whom it really matters anyway turn on color cues in menu, and those who prefer more smooth visuals can't just turn off your new animation of the skill. Please, change visuals to something smoother and more similar to Baleful Mist on Live servers. I am not the artist, colors could be a little brighter but here the direction i am talking about:

3) Vampiric Drain.
Again, you decreased damage by 50% and increased healing which often was already redundant. I used Invigorating Drain for damage too, it gave good vampiric feeling, that you draw life from enemies. Now it became pure resource recovery skill. Please, return back damage to skill, and reduce healing.
Visuals lose all vampiric feel, colors not fit, beam glows, player glows, enemy glows, sometimes i feel more like Ghostbuster than vampire. Again, seems you wanted make skill more visible in combat, but experienced players can see beam to their target without highlight and casual players often bother more about satisfaction from visuals, not about readability in combat. If you really want to highlight target of the skill make it option in menu, don't tie it to the visuals of the skill, because those who don't like it can't turn it off. Current version of Invigorating Drain looks and sounds like blood flow, please, keep this feeling, if you want to make it more visible just make wider current visuals of the skill. And if you want to highlight what resource this skill recover, highlight it by small colored details, not by recoloring entire visuals of skill:


Hope something will be done, or, because of my visual preferences and way of usage of the current skills, i will be left without any vampire skills to use, after 3.5 years of waiting...

My feedback on PTS from !!! may 12 2020, about new sound effects of vampire skills, nothing were changed:

Seems with 6.0.3 patch you make new sound effects to vampire abilities. Doubt that you will change anything anymore but here my feedback:
1) Eviscerate and morphs. New sound transmits well speed of hand move, but does not transmit a hit at all. It sounds like you always miss and hitting the air. Maybe you need to add some torn flesh sound on hit, or add some weight to the sound.
2) Blood Frenzy and morphs. Sound of activation not match the visuals and overall vampiric theme, it sounds like hollow pipe. Sound of deactivation sounds normal and match visuals, but visuals themselves not very "Blood" or "Frenzy" and hard to see in fight.
3) Vampiric Drain and morphs. Seems you added new sound which is trying to reproduce sound of flowing liquid from one body to another, but at least part of it sounds wrong, it sounds more like boiling liquid not flowing. Just keep sound from Invigorating Drain skill form live servers, it already sounds perfect, like flowing liquid.
4) Mesmerize and Stupefy Seems ok.
Hypnotize. Sounds ok for it visuals, but visuals themselves look more like magic explosion, don't know why this morph did not keep visual style of Mesmerize.
5) Mist Form and morphs. Now sound of activation and deactivation sounds more like wind, not like mist or smoke. Old sound from live servers were better.
Blood Mist. I like sound of hits.
6) Blood Scion and morphs. At the moment of transformation there is sound like some vase is crashed it sounds bad and unnecessary. Overall sound and new voice is good.
7) Unnatural movement passive. Again some bad hollow pipe sound in moments of activation and deactivation.

Aside from sound, I'm disappointed that you haven't changed some of the vampire skills, or at least their visual effects.

And i want to highlight separately new vampirc ult Blood Scion, this abomination looks like glowing Xivkyn, has nothing to do with vampires in the way he looks and moves. I suggested at april 2020 on PTS to made at least one of the ultimates morphs looks different, more like Blodknight NPC, but as you can guess, nothing were changed:

About Blood Scion ultimate.
To please more players, ZOS can:
- move bat swarm themed ability from ultimate to regular ability in some form, so players that don't like Blood Scions appearance or overall idea of transformation of their beloved vampire character can get acces to bat themed ability.
- one morph of the Blood Scion ultimate make look like Vampire Lord NPC or Gray Host BloodKnight NPC. Their models has different stance animation and they uses claws to attack, so this morph will can not use weapon skills, this will pleased those part of players who don't like to see transformed vampire with weapon.

If ZOS don't want to give players Vampire Lord NPC model, because of lore or plot reasons, or they don't want many "little" Vampire Lords flooded Tamriel, we can stick to BloodKnight NPC type model.
I am, personally, don't want to players appearance were as armored as BloodKnight NPC, but fortunately his model seems use same skeleton animation as Vampire Lord NPC, so appearance can be pretty easily tweaked, for example:

But it can be middle ground in terms of armor and skin color, my wishes is that face must be opened and armor must be not bulky, without protruding bracers, shoulders and hips pieces.
Also pleasant fact for me, that because of different stance, skeletal animation and stronger bending of the lower part of the leg, BloodKnight NPC model looks smaller:

This leads us to important theme of the height and size of the Blood Scion model. At this moment model of Blood Scion is too huge, and the same size, in terms of body proportions, as BloodKnight NPC. As i understand ZOS can't make player's Blood Scion lower than BloodKnight NPC, because it will feel bad for players if they will face in game almost same ultimate form as theirs but bigger, also ZOS can't rescale Blood Scion and BloodKnight much, because they were already in promo trailers, screenshots and so on. But, all that were introduced were labeled as work in progress and Blood Scion and Bloodknight NPCs downscale for 5-10% will be not so noticeable, but will make size of the models much more appropriate and acceptibale for vampire transformtaion. So, my suggestion is to reduce size of the Blood Scion and Bloodknight NPC models by 10%, or at least by 5%:

More thoughts about current appearance of Blood Scion. As i already told, horns make him look more like a Xivkyn or demon, bulky shoulders and hips armor make him look even more huge and these absolutely unnecessary glow, smoke and fire coming from his body, it not visible on pictures that i made, but don't forget, that current Blood Scion model shine like christmas tree.
So glow must gone, armor must be not so bulging, horns preferably must gone too or, if it for some reason can't be done, at least be much smaller. Here example of possible changes:


Summary:
- move bats in some form to regular skill
- make one morph of Blood Scion ult more like Bloodknight NPC, with claws attack, but without weapon skills
- downscale Blood Scions and Bloodknight models by 10%, at least by 5%
- remove glow, remove horns(or make them much smaller), make armor not so bulging

And some "what if...", full concept about vampire gameplay, skills, visuals based on player's ideas from PTS. Point of view on vampire skills, mechanics and stages of vampirism.

Hello!
Soon Greymoor chapter will be released and PTS cycle goes to its end, we already saw direction of vampire changes and i don’t like them in terms of skills and visual effects. So i wrote my point of view on all aspects of vampirism, inspired by all feedback on this forum. This changes are more of an overhaul of vampire skills, mechanics and stages of vampirism, more for my fun and with sliver hope, that this can be implemented as another vampire blood line in 4th quater DLC. It will be a long read, but it's structured and with pictures Hope you will like it, and if so, then click "agree" or "awesome", spread the word and summon ZOS devs in this thread.
Enjoy reading!

Overview
This version of vampirism allows to play with minor usage of vampire skills and feed once every 4 hours or play with full kit of thematic vampire skills (AoE, DoT, gap closer, dash) with active feeding in combat, in which vampire skills will help you to get behind the enemy. Stages of vampirism are not linear increased in strength, but shifted from magically powerful fully sated vampires with more human appearance and bodies full of blood to feral and physically powerful hungry vampires with more undeath appearance and bodies, the last 4th stage is starved vampires, alive, but weak, which encourages players to feed. One morph of the ultimate allows to transform in a different form, other morph allows to remain in regular vampire appearance but with increased power. Skills and passive, in my opinion, will suit all classes and roles(tank, healer, DD), magicka or stamina. All numbers can be tweaked and balanced, the main purpose is to give unique, thematic playstyle and feel for vampires.

Stages of vampirism

Stage 1: Vampires at this stage are fully sated, have more human appearance and bodies full of blood. At this stage their magical powers are at full potential.
Weaknesses:
- Flame damage taken +10%
- Health recovery -25%
- Healing taken from non vampire skills -10%
Strengths:
- Spell damage increased by 300 for vampire skills
Passives:
- Decrease the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%
- No speed penalty while channeling
- Increase range of Vampiric Drain by 10 meters

Stage 2: At this stage vampires start to lose their humanity and part of magical bonuses, their appearance and body become more undeath, but more physically stronger.
Weaknesses:
- Flame damage taken +20%
- Health recovery -50%
- Healing taken from non vampire skills -20%
Strengths:
- Spell and weapon damage increased by 150 for vampire skills
Passives:
- Decrease the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%
- No speed penalty while channeling
- No speed penalty while blocking
- Reduce your damage taken by up to 15% based on your missing Health (from 100%)
- Decrease your fall damage taken by 25%
Lost passives compared to the previous stage:

- Increase range of Vampiric Drain by 10 meters

Stage 3: Vampires at this stage are hungry, they lose their magical bonuses, appearance and body become more undeath, but hunger make them feral, their hunting instincts are growing, they gain more physical power and speed.
Weaknesses:
- Flame damage taken +30%
- Health recovery -80%
- Healing taken from non vampire skills -30%
Strengths:
- Weapon damage increased by 300 for vampire skills
Passives:
- Decrease the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%
- No speed penalty while blocking
- Reduce your damage taken by up to 25% based on your missing Health (from 100%)
- Decrease your fall damage taken by 25%
- Increase your movement speed by 10%
- Sneak don't cost resources. Allows you to sprint in Sneak
Lost passives compared to the previous stage:

- No speed penalty while channeling

Stage 4: Vampires at this stage are starved, their appearance and body become more undeath, all their magical and physical bonuses are outweighed by weak state of this stage, except their unstoppable hunger and ability to sense their preys.
Weaknesses:
- Flame damage taken +40%
- Health recovery -100%
- Healing taken from non vampire skills -40%
Strengths:
- None
Passives:
- Detect creatures. Can sense(see) sneaking, invisible creatures and creatures behind obstacles. (Maybe except creatures without blood: dwarven automatons, skeletons etc. Not very big radius, to prevent abusing in PvP, checking number of enemies in keeps)
- Can't be interrupted while Feeding or using Vampire Drain
Lost passives compared to the previous stage:

- Decrease the time it takes to enter Sneak by 50%
- No speed penalty while blocking
- Reduce your damage taken by up to 25% based on your missing Health (from 100%)
- Decrease your fall damage taken by 25%
- Increase your movement speed by 10%
- Sneak don't cost resources. Allows you to sprint in Sneak

Table for stages of vampirism, for easier comparison.

Health recovery weakness can be lower in shadows and inside buildings, for example by 20%, for additional roleplay element and vampiric gameplay. Don't know if this possible to achieve at ESO engine and at what cost.
Regarding appearance. There always will be players with different preferences of which vampire stage they want to play and how their vampire must look, more human or more undeath. The only good option, in my opinion, is to release more appropriate skins and polymorphs for vampires, human-like, undeath-like, with bat faces, as some vampires in Volkihar clan and so on. There is no point in strict restrictions, because if you want to hide your vampiric appearance you already can, by using skin or closed helmet.

Feeding
Feeding out of combat.
If you feed on NPC out of combat and from behind you will kill him, as it will be on Live servers, but with longer bite animation, to emphasize that you dried him for the last drop. Player can choose not to kill NPC, you can use Mesmorize skill on NPC and this will allows you to feed on him in front, with shorter bite animation and keep him alive, it will also help in small rooms with small space behind NPC. If you kill NPC by drying him out you will restore all Health, if you keep him alive you will restore some portion of Health. Player also can feed on another player, but it will not kill him, it will start fight and activate Feeding in combat mechanics.

Feeding in combat
This is crucial mechanics, which will add a lot of fun and vampiric feel to the combat, in my opinion. While in combat, you also can feed, to do so enemy must be stunned or player must be behind enemy(at melee range, no need to sneak). If at least one of the conditions fulfilled player can press "X" button and feed, animation must be very fast and precise, for example, vampire turn into the mist and instantly is behind enemy already in appropriate pose to execute the bite, all animations no longer than one second. To prevent collisions with animations of another player who can use Break Free or Dodge Roll both players, vampire and victim, can become stunned and invulnerable(covered with cloud of mist or bats) for that one second, this also will prevent setting up of burst combos, or killing victim by another players while he get bitten.

Skills

New crucial mechanics of vampire gameplay. Vampires will have Satiety bar under Magicka bar, similar to werewolves. This bar will be divided at four parts, four stages.
Satiety will be slowly drained and will deplete one stage at 4 hours, but usage of vampire skills will deplete Satiety bar much faster, around 10-20 skills per stage. You can replenish Satiety for a little amount by using Vampire Drain skill, but this skill can't lower vampire stage. To lower vampire stage and replenish bar for one full stage you must bite enemy in combat, feed outside of combat or use Bloody Mara(to prevent abusing of Bloody Maras it could have 3-5 minutes timer).

*) Bite. Don't need to be slotted, ability out of skill line. While in combat, if enemy is stunned or you are behind him in melee range you can Bite him, dealing X damage and heal for Y health, scales from highest stat or have fixed values, maybe in percentages. Also lowers stage of vampirism by one and replenish Satiety bar by full stage.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Clarification: Core and very thematic element of gameplay. Allows you to heal and fuel the use of vampire skills. Animation must be fast, around 1 second.

1) First morph: Poison Talons. Toggle skill. Replaces your regular Light and Heavy attacks with melee attacks with the talons, each attack with talons stacks Corpse Poison, after 5 stacks slows enemy by 90% for 1 second. This slow can help you get behind enemy for Bite. Cost Stamina to activate, slightly decreases Satiety on each attack, Physical damage, restore Stamina on Heavy attacks. Attacks looks like those Bloodfiend NPC have, Heavy attack looks like series of 3-4 attacks.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Second morph: Concentrated blood Toggle skill. Replaces your regular Light and Heavy attacks with ranged magical Light and Heavy attacks, each attack restore Health a little and increase Healing done by 1% for 8 seconds, maximum 8 stacks. Cost Magicka to activate, slightly decreases Satiety on each attack, Magical damage, restore Magicka on Heavy attacks. Heavy attack is AoE, with a short charging time.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Additional features while in Transformed form: No cost to toggle on and don't decreases Satiety on each attack.

Clarification: Thematic vampire attacks. Replaces regular LA and HA, because of that weapon enchantments stop working while this skill is toggle on, but your LA and HA gets another properties: powerful slow or increased Healing done. Also with this toggle you can choose what type of recources you want to restore on HA, you can restore Stamina with your sword and Magicka with this toggle. At the moment of the attack, weapon disappears from the player’s hands, similar to psijic Mend Wounds skill. If you prefer vampire aesthetic in spammable attacks you can go HA build and attack primarily with claws and red magic spheres, while keeping the opportunity to use regular spammable skills.

2) First morph: Bat Swarm Dash. Dash, no target needed. Turns into swarm of bats and fly forward dealing X Magical damage to all enemies in the way, small group of bats stick to each enemy, continues to distract them and deal additional Y Magical damage every 1 second for 10 seconds and apply Minor Maim. Range 15 meters, cost Magicka, moderately decreases Satiety on each use. Looks more like Vampire NPCs dash with some magic ball inside of swarm, but bats must stick to the central ball all the way.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Second morph: Hunger Swarm. Gap closer, needs target. Turns into swarm of bats and fly to the enemy dealing X Physical damage to all enemies in the way and heal you for part of the damage done, small group of bats stick to each enemy, keep dealing additional Y Physical damage every 1 second for 10 seconds and heal you for part of the damage done. You materialize behind the enemy, for easier Bite. Range 22 meters, cost Stamina, moderately decreases Satiety on each use. Visuals without magical element.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Additional features while in Transformed form: Swarm of the bats constantly fly around player in a small radius and deal damage to nearby enemies. Damage type and additional properties depends on morph of appropriate skill.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Clarification: Canonic vampire power, have Magicka and Stamina morphs. Can be used as dash or gap closer or as a DoT ability.

3) First morph: Vampiric Drain. Ranged, channeling ability. Draws a stream of blood from enemy dealing X Magic damage, healing you for Y Health and generating 5 Ultimate every 1 second for 3 seconds. Range 12 meters, cost Magicka, don't decreases Satiety, on the contrary moderately replenish Satiety bar. Visuals looks like the flow of blood. Old Invigorating Drain skill had very good visuals and sound, perhaps, flow could be a little wider.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Second morph: Relentless Drain. Ranged, channeling ability. Draws a stream of blood from enemy decreasing his Health for X% of his maximum Health and healing you for Y% of your missing Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. Range 12 meters, cost Magicka, have damage cap, don't decreases Satiety, on the contrary moderately replenish Satiety bar. This morph also looks like the flow of blood, difference in visuals can be achieved by slightly different color, speed of flow, particles near hand.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Additional features while in Transformed form: Can lower stage of vampirism, additionally restores small portions of Magicka and Stamina

Clarification: Important spell in vampire kit. This ability allows you to deal average damage, restore Health and Satiety. Its range increases to 22 meters on the first stage of vampirism due to passive skill. It can't lower stage of vampirism, so if you use vampire skills a lot and don't use Bite for some reason, you must use Vampiric Drain more often to fuel your vampiric power.

4) Unmorphed: Mesmerize. Single target stun. Mesmerizes target for 4 seconds by putting hypnotic effect around his head. Don't needs eye contact, can't be blocked. Range 10 meters, cost Magicka, moderately decreases Satiety on each use.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

First morph: Nightmare. Single target stun. Creates a hypnotic effect around the head of the enemy, fearing him for 4 seonds. The enemy begins to see nightmare visions, which afflicting him with Minor Vulnerability and dealing X Magic damage each 1 second for 10 seconds. Don't needs eye contact, can't be blocked. Range 10 meters, cost Magicka, moderately decreases Satiety on each use.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Second morph: Dizziness. Single target stun. Quickly turns the opponent with his back to himself by putting hypnotic effect around his head, stuns him for 4 seconds and set Off Balance. This make him easy target to Bite. Don't needs eye contact, can't be blocked. Range 10 meters, cost Magicka, moderately decreases Satiety on each use.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Additional features while in Transformed form: Increases range to 22 meters. Pulls an enemy to you, deals X Physical damage, based on your highest offensive stat and and after use on of the skill morphs. Works similar to Fiery Grip skills. Overall animation and visuals similar to Vampiric Grip from TES: Skyrim.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Clarification: When used against peaceful NPCs always works unmorphed Mesmerize skill.

5) First morph: Poison mist. Invisability + Mist form + Ground AoE DoT ability. Dissolve into a mist form for 4 seconds and create cloud of poison mist around you in a large area which deals X Poison damage to all enemies in the area every 1 second for 10 seconds. Entering this form grants you invisibility, Major Expedition, reducing your damage taken by 75%, removes and grants immunity to all disabling and immobilization effects, but you cannot be healed. If you leave area of the mist cloud you will become visible. Invisibility and increased movement speed allows you to avoid damage and get behind enemy to Bite him. Radius 8 meters, cost Stamina, moderately decreases Satiety on each use.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

First morph: Blood mist. Ranged ground AoE ability. Launch mist projectile on the groud to the targeted location which deals damage to all enemies in the way for X Magic damage and heals you for part of the damage dealt. When projectile hit targeted location it creates cloud of blood mist which deals damage to all enemies in the area for Y Magic damage and heals you for part of the damage dealt. While you stays inside the mist heal from this ability is doubled. Range 22 meters, radius 6 meters, cost Magicka, moderately decreases Satiety on each use. Heal from the mist cloud looks like small parts of the Blood mist returns to the player.
Direction of visual effects(gif):

Additional features while in Transformed form: While you stays inside the mist damage of this ability is doubled.

Clarification: Melee and ranged options for ground AoE. First morph looks like you instantly disappear in the mist cloud and can be used to avoid, mitigate damage or get behind enemy to Bite him.

6) Ultimate. First morph: Transformed form. Transforms into more powerful form. All vampire skills receive additional features (described above). In this form you attack with your claws and can't use weapon skills, but can alter your Light and Heavy attacks to ranged by Concentrated blood toggle skill. After the first 15 seconds in this form, your Satiety begins to decrease, you can replenish Satiety by Vampiric Drain skill or by Bite. Ultimate ends when player wants or when Satiety decrease to zero. Transformed form, first of all, looks like vampire, without horns, not very tall, have more predator stance, movements agile, have sharp claws. Not very important with or without wing stumps if the final look is good.
Direction of visual effects(jpg):

Ultimate. First morph: Ancient blood. While use this ability you combine strengths of all stages of vampirism and keep the minimum weaknesses of stage 1(see the table above). This ultimate keeps your regular appearance, you can use all skills. After the first 15 seconds of using this ultimate, your Satiety begins to decrease, you can replenish Satiety by Vampiric Drain skill or by Bite. Ultimate ends when player wants or when Satiety decrease to zero. To highlight that the player activated this Ultimate visual effects should be added to his model. Not very bright, maybe some smoke or mist coming from the surface of the body and falls to the ground, when player moves, mist can leave a small trail.
Direction of visual effects(jpg):

Clarification: Both morphs can be tweaked, more buffs can be added according to balance. In fact, both ultimate morphs can be without transformation, if there will be enough options to customise your vampire character with appropriate skins and polymorphs.

Thank you for reading!

EDITS:

- Forgot to mention in original post, that Mesmerize and it morphs are Single target stun.

Summoning ritual: @Noxavian @Sephyr @Thevampirenight @TX12001rwb17_ESO @ShadowHvo @Vevvev @Lord-Otto @Cameron991 @Paradisius @navystylz_ESO @ApostateHobo @Darkstride @wild_kmacdb16_ESO @Alexium @Tessitura @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Katahdin wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

They are no longer must have for literally every role like they used to be.
Its a play style that you can use if you want but is no longer stupid OP
That is how it should be

What's the play style?

Killing yourself for minimal amounts of damage? Being melee without a gap closer? Being entirely magicka damage based despite having skills that drain HP, one of your lowest sources as a magicka light armor character?

It absolutely does not have a unique play style if it's just 'lulz stack dmg win'

Although in this case it's 'lulz try to stack dmg then still lose' because of how weak and underdeveloped the line is.

Before they changed it you needed to be vamp for tank for the regen, for stam and mag DPS for the regen, for healer for the regen. I was literally told that as a STAM dps, I HAD to be a vamp to min max for damage to run in a trial group.

Also there were vamps literally everywhere. 90% of the playerbase ran vamps on their characters for both PVE and PVP they were so OP

You shouldnt have to be vamp or WW to do anything in the game.

No one asking to vampire be OP or must have again, nobody wants it.
I believe not a single vampire player (by choice) don't want to all other players were a vampires too, it ruins an immersiveness, instead of being disguised vampire in the town of the mortals you find that you cannot even spit to avoid hitting another vampire.
And i think ZOS made big mistake that they didn't go to unique gameplay around bloodsucking in combat and go to another power boost by increased numbers, they will never balance it, it will always be trash or must have for all/some builds, because of additional numbers. I think they can fix it to a certain degree by making Vampiric Drain more usefull and restrict healing by not vampire skill sources by 50-60%, this will bring vampiric feel to gameplay, in my opinion. Of cause they will need to adjust other bonuses too, get rid of skill increase cost, for example. But skills and passives that increases numbers always will be a problem.

WrathOfInnos

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@VampireLordLover99 @Nova_J @Sephyr @Vevvev

You can check ESOlogs.com, and see Simmering Frenzy, Pale Order and often BFB on all the top DPS in trials.

I’m not particularly good at the vamp build, still getting used to toggle, but here are a couple of my own examples.






That’s more Spell Damage than I ever had with Thrassian Stranglers when it was good.

Edit: I’ll include numbers here for comparison. My non-vamp Sorc is getting around 81k single on Yolna, so 97k/81k = 20% DPS increase. My non-vamp Warden is hitting around 101k on an Iron Atro so 127k/101k = 26% DPS increase.

I couldn't imagine using Simmering frenzy with BFB in a trial environment. And have never seen anyone use such in that environment. That absolutely is not sustainable. Simmering frenzy alone in a trial environment without the heal from sated to pick you back up is also not that sustainable. My best estimate is that these are from dummy tests. In which case of course you'll get high DPS. But they aren't an accurate account as to how you'll do in an actual trial where you are cut off from group heals and sometimes buffs. As well as AoEs, one shot mechanics, etc.

Anyone can stand in front of a dummy and safely get up to those numbers with this set up. But in practice in an actual heat of the moment trial? I'm very doubtful.

Also you have perfected trial gear. Which quite frankly is not something available to most trial people and is carrying a lot of that high DPS number.

That first one is from veteran Yolnahkriin hard mode, a trial boss where everyone receives massive amounts of incoming damage from Focus Fire. Pale Order outheals this mechanic + Simmering + Blood for Blood. It’s dangerous, one wrong move and you’re dead, healers cannot help. Certainly not for everyone, but it’s by far the most powerful build in trials.

Yup, I edited my original response due to this. Literally wooshed right by me, apologies on that.

But, unfortunately, my other points of a 20% increase of dps from 2 abilities being held loosely together by an item doesn't prove that the skill line in a normal sense isn't quite bad and not fun to play for people who aren't trying to push top-tier raids and want to make use of the class. I also dont consider tossing chunks of stats around to be a unique play style.

And also like you said, this set up is very dangerous and one might argue it would be better just to play like a normal trial person instead of taking the chance with this set up. Unless you're pushing for top-tier leaderboards, I do not know if this set up would even be worth taking considering the risk.

This is essentially the equivalent of celebrities pretending to have had an issue with the 'lockdown' last year, if you want an IRL analogy. The majority of the player population does not have the coordination your raid group has nor that level of very, very, very hard to get gear and just want a viable, optional play style.

Your group is very skilled and reliable and you all are literally in the top 1% of this game. You have perfect gear and more than likely enough synergy to take the flat increase of damage from the two abilities here and make way more use of it than an average player.

I hope you can understand how it's a bit unrealistic to say that the skill line itself is good if you, an already perfect player essentially, can use just the two most stat-chonky spells from the list. At that point it's just snagging the most basic of things that increase damage output, it isnt about playing as a vampire or anything like that. It's about doing what you can to boost your damage in your already very skilled environment.

Like, Im happy you can make use of two skills from it, but I wouldn't go around saying that means the line is good. Because it isn't. You're just able to make use of eviscerate and blood frenzy because all that matters when you're that high up there on the gear and raid group charts is 'how can i deal more damage'

Yeah ok, I’ll agree that the vampire skill line isn’t very satisfying. It just happens to be the new “flavor of the month” for overpowered damage this patch, following Thrassians in Greymoor and prebuffing in Stonethorn. I can’t call it weak for this reason, but it’s not particularly fun or versatile. I’d like to see more variation in the end game builds that deal competitive damage, it seems so focused on gimmicks this past year. Still, I’ll play it while it’s the best, or fall far behind those that do.

CoronHR

i think it's not exactly trash, it's just not very useful. i have 2 vamp chars, one mag and one stam, just for variety and just to have a couple of vampires, as i like the idea of playing as a vamp. i don't have any issues with them, it's just that i'm pretty sure that non-vamp equivalents would be all-around better. also, i don't use any of the abilities, even though they really expanded on them. shame that there isn't a way to work those abilities into general play, but they just don't work as well as the other myriad of ability choices.

VampireLordLover99

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@VampireLordLover99 @Nova_J @Sephyr @Vevvev

You can check ESOlogs.com, and see Simmering Frenzy, Pale Order and often BFB on all the top DPS in trials.

I’m not particularly good at the vamp build, still getting used to toggle, but here are a couple of my own examples.






That’s more Spell Damage than I ever had with Thrassian Stranglers when it was good.

Edit: I’ll include numbers here for comparison. My non-vamp Sorc is getting around 81k single on Yolna, so 97k/81k = 20% DPS increase. My non-vamp Warden is hitting around 101k on an Iron Atro so 127k/101k = 26% DPS increase.

I couldn't imagine using Simmering frenzy with BFB in a trial environment. And have never seen anyone use such in that environment. That absolutely is not sustainable. Simmering frenzy alone in a trial environment without the heal from sated to pick you back up is also not that sustainable. My best estimate is that these are from dummy tests. In which case of course you'll get high DPS. But they aren't an accurate account as to how you'll do in an actual trial where you are cut off from group heals and sometimes buffs. As well as AoEs, one shot mechanics, etc.

Anyone can stand in front of a dummy and safely get up to those numbers with this set up. But in practice in an actual heat of the moment trial? I'm very doubtful.

Also you have perfected trial gear. Which quite frankly is not something available to most trial people and is carrying a lot of that high DPS number.

That first one is from veteran Yolnahkriin hard mode, a trial boss where everyone receives massive amounts of incoming damage from Focus Fire. Pale Order outheals this mechanic + Simmering + Blood for Blood. It’s dangerous, one wrong move and you’re dead, healers cannot help. Certainly not for everyone, but it’s by far the most powerful build in trials.

Yup, I edited my original response due to this. Literally wooshed right by me, apologies on that.

But, unfortunately, my other points of a 20% increase of dps from 2 abilities being held loosely together by an item doesn't prove that the skill line in a normal sense isn't quite bad and not fun to play for people who aren't trying to push top-tier raids and want to make use of the class. I also dont consider tossing chunks of stats around to be a unique play style.

And also like you said, this set up is very dangerous and one might argue it would be better just to play like a normal trial person instead of taking the chance with this set up. Unless you're pushing for top-tier leaderboards, I do not know if this set up would even be worth taking considering the risk.

This is essentially the equivalent of celebrities pretending to have had an issue with the 'lockdown' last year, if you want an IRL analogy. The majority of the player population does not have the coordination your raid group has nor that level of very, very, very hard to get gear and just want a viable, optional play style.

Your group is very skilled and reliable and you all are literally in the top 1% of this game. You have perfect gear and more than likely enough synergy to take the flat increase of damage from the two abilities here and make way more use of it than an average player.

I hope you can understand how it's a bit unrealistic to say that the skill line itself is good if you, an already perfect player essentially, can use just the two most stat-chonky spells from the list. At that point it's just snagging the most basic of things that increase damage output, it isnt about playing as a vampire or anything like that. It's about doing what you can to boost your damage in your already very skilled environment.

Like, Im happy you can make use of two skills from it, but I wouldn't go around saying that means the line is good. Because it isn't. You're just able to make use of eviscerate and blood frenzy because all that matters when you're that high up there on the gear and raid group charts is 'how can i deal more damage'

Yeah ok, I’ll agree that the vampire skill line isn’t very satisfying. It just happens to be the new “flavor of the month” for overpowered damage this patch, following Thrassians in Greymoor and prebuffing in Stonethorn. I can’t call it weak for this reason, but it’s not particularly fun or versatile. I’d like to see more variation in the end game builds that deal competitive damage, it seems so focused on gimmicks this past year. Still, I’ll play it while it’s the best, or fall far behind those that do.

That's perfectly understandable. I'm very glad I could get you to agree. The line being more fun and versatile would be amazing. I get why you play it too, it's a niche fragile gimmick that will fade once a new thing hits more than likely.

VampireLordLover99

CoronHR wrote: »

i think it's not exactly trash, it's just not very useful. i have 2 vamp chars, one mag and one stam, just for variety and just to have a couple of vampires, as i like the idea of playing as a vamp. i don't have any issues with them, it's just that i'm pretty sure that non-vamp equivalents would be all-around better. also, i don't use any of the abilities, even though they really expanded on them. shame that there isn't a way to work those abilities into general play, but they just don't work as well as the other myriad of ability choices.

I'd argue that not being able to fit a single one of the vampire skills into general play miiiight mean the line is pretty trash.

And being pretty sure that your chars would be better if they weren't vampires also fits into it being pretty trash.

Ragged_Claw

For me personally, yes. I've been a vampire since launch though and am too stubborn to cure myself. But the rework isn't what I'd hoped for, none of the new skills seem to work that well for me and I don't PvP so no help there either. I know other people have got it to work by building around it, using different sets etc, but I just feel weaker overall, sustain is lower and I don't feel that I'm getting anything much in return. The ultimate is pure crud too (well, for me). I had hopes of being able to maintain the vamp lord form by feeding, like you do with werewolf, and using your special vamp skills when transformed. Oh well. Werewolf is so much fun to play, and vamp just sucks now. Sucks, see?

Silaf

Played vampire since beta and had to remove it.

DT-ARR

I dont have the latest expansion and thus dont have access to ring of the pale order / antiquities. Sadly people who defend vamp in its current state and voice the opinion that its viable seem to assume that everyone running the subclass has this.

Not the case at all. Unfortunate that a single mythic item tucked behind a paywall is deemed to be a prerequisite for a class to be considered effective. That in and of itself should be suggestive of the line being broken.

And a little off topic so apologies in advance...but F trial dummies and parse vids on youtube demonstrating dps like it is actually representative of the way 95% of people play the game. Nothing but a gateway for fools who dont even play a class to come out of the woodwork and beg for nerfs and make uninformed statements claiming that something is OP when its clearly the opposite.

Just sayin.