ZOS please consider dissolving ball groups

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I'm not insisting that anyone changes what they do. I'm simply saying that those insisting that groups are changed but aren't willing to change anything they do are more of an issue imo

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I'm not insisting that anyone changes what they do. I'm simply saying that those insisting that groups are changed but aren't willing to change anything they do are more of an issue imo

I don't insist that groups change, I would like certain mechanics that I believe lead to an imbalance to change. Of course, that will force groups to change. I don't expect any player to stop using what's strongest in any playstyle, but that doesn't mean an imbalance should be preserved.

Kordai

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I'm not insisting that anyone changes what they do. I'm simply saying that those insisting that groups are changed but aren't willing to change anything they do are more of an issue imo

I don't insist that groups change, I would like certain mechanics that I believe lead to an imbalance to change. Of course, that will force groups to change. I don't expect any player to stop using what's strongest in any playstyle, but that doesn't mean an imbalance should be preserved.

As zos has said either be in a ball group or don't pvp.

NotTaylorSwift

Kordai wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I'm not insisting that anyone changes what they do. I'm simply saying that those insisting that groups are changed but aren't willing to change anything they do are more of an issue imo

I don't insist that groups change, I would like certain mechanics that I believe lead to an imbalance to change. Of course, that will force groups to change. I don't expect any player to stop using what's strongest in any playstyle, but that doesn't mean an imbalance should be preserved.

As zos has said either be in a ball group or don't pvp.

When did they say that?

NotTaylorSwift

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I think it was izanagi that said earlier in this thread (I’m not 100% sure) that zos should encourage players to learn and get better at the game rather than keep making it easier for them. Ball groups have been around since the start of the game and people still don’t know how to slot ranged detos and negates. Players flock to the keep with their single target zerg surf builds and just get farmed over and over whilst not being able to do anything because they aren’t using the correct skills or gear.

It’s imbalanced because you have a group of coordinated players using voice and synergised roles/sets vs unorganised pugs that don’t know which skills to use because they aren’t being encouraged to learn the game. Even if u nerfed heal stacking and group purging, ball groups would still have an advantage.

badmojo

So then we agree... nerf heal stacking and purge.

NeillMcAttack

JingoJango046 wrote: »

I find that ball groups are counterable with the right gameplay so long as the lag or any other issues are not present. There are tactics like those previously mentioned that can and do work, such as proxy det or chaining. But, as is, its extremely difficult to do when skills or bar swaps often dont work.
Its too easy to blame the ball groups, we can see they cause the lag, we all know when you go near them you cant mount for ages, you often cant use skills etc etc. But they dont make the game, they play the game. The design of the ball groups is obviously extremely effective and well done to those that lead them.

While the game is the way it is, facing ball groups will remain difficult. Lets see what the latest proc set tests brings us and applaud eso for at least trying to do something to make the game better for us all. It was wonderful in RW on EU recently btw, no ball groups so no horrendous lag.

RW EU was pretty good performance wise. The long Queue deterred ballgroups which made gameplay very smooth, relatively speaking. It was a lot of fun.

Quagmire turned into an Emp trading campaign, where they could trade blue and yellow Emps very easily by camping Arrius, as is the power of ball groups currently. It was a complete joke.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Unfortunately it's just not realistically possible to "nerf" them.

I will agree that they are the reason performance is as bad as it gets. When you have a few ball groups running around the server just goes to crap. It's obvious their behavior is what causes performance issues.

Vizirith

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Unfortunately it's just not realistically possible to "nerf" them.

I will agree that they are the reason performance is as bad as it gets. When you have a few ball groups running around the server just goes to crap. It's obvious their behavior is what causes performance issues.

Not to mention what is everybody else going to have to sacrifice for them in the name of lag reduction. It's abundantly clear what causes the lag spikes. You can tell anywhere on the map when a ball group is fighting or not. 12 people cause far more lag than 40 solo/small-scale players. How many more tests or fundamental changes are there going to be just to compensate for them?

The upcoming test is almost pointless in that they can't change much no matter what the outcome is. Getting rid of all "proc" sets will ofc reduce the lag. If they feel it is significant, then what? There are over 400 sets in the game, 19 are allowed during the test. They can't possibly make the test permanent. Change all the other hundreds of sets to non-proc? No that'll be way too much effort and a majority of players would hate it. Change only some other sets to non-proc and disallow the rest? How many will change, a hundred? Doubt it, build variety will be dead. Or the test will show that it has no significant impact, and we'll be back to were we started.

ShadowProc

Being in a ball group is a selfish way to play. Can’t blame them as that’s how the game was advertised.

However, it is clear it causes a significant amount of lag. Not to mention it getting exponentially worse during their farms. Either make heals and purge self target in pvp or lag will never go away. Not that it matters. Game is struggling and place holder for something better

FantasticFreddie

I do not find the performance to be significantly worse when in a ballgroup vrs in a small group or alone.
And you simply cannot, and should not erase the incentive for team work, organization and communication from the game.

badmojo

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

And you simply cannot, and should not erase the incentive for team work, organization and communication from the game.

Shouldn't the advantages of organization, communication and numbers be enough? Why does the game need to incentivize players to group up by giving mechanical advantages?

Vizirith

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

I do not find the performance to be significantly worse when in a ballgroup vrs in a small group or alone.
And you simply cannot, and should not erase the incentive for team work, organization and communication from the game.

The performance while in a ball group is not much worse than solo. But whether or not a ball group is fighting vs when only solo players are fighting server-wide is very clear.

Nobody is saying they should not have advantages, they should and do. They question is how much of an advantage they should have.

NeillMcAttack

It’s great to finally see the conversation moving forward and seeing people agree on a larger scale that it’s AOE checks that cause more lag than anything else currently (ball groups being a primary offender by nature).

Which begs the question, is it really a good idea to re-allow cross alliance healing??

Don’t get me wrong, I hate how OP balls are. I hate not being able to save allies. I hate not being able to run my Templar support set ups casually. But what I hate more than any of that, is when my buttons don’t do anything. Are we prepared to sacrifice the small windows of good performance, the 1 second ability delay to 4 seconds?? Because that is what we had 24/7 post U25 and prior to the limitations.....!?

Sandman929

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I think it was izanagi that said earlier in this thread (I’m not 100% sure) that zos should encourage players to learn and get better at the game rather than keep making it easier for them. Ball groups have been around since the start of the game and people still don’t know how to slot ranged detos and negates. Players flock to the keep with their single target zerg surf builds and just get farmed over and over whilst not being able to do anything because they aren’t using the correct skills or gear.

It’s imbalanced because you have a group of coordinated players using voice and synergised roles/sets vs unorganised pugs that don’t know which skills to use because they aren’t being encouraged to learn the game. Even if u nerfed heal stacking and group purging, ball groups would still have an advantage.

They absolutely would, because organized will still beat unorganized. But, without heal stacking and group purging the defensive advantage is brought down out of the stratosphere. A good organized group would still beat a worse group or the ungrouped masses to a lesser degree than is possible with the currently, IMO, overpowered defensive mechanics.

xaraan

Well, the biggest issue with some ball groups (usually the lazy ones) is prox det. It's meant to work against them and used by them because it's poorly designed. It should scale up to the point where if it hits more than 10 people it's going to almost insta-kill them, but if it's overlapped with another prox det it can't do more than base damage.

The other issue is rapid regen and the like, just allow no stacking of the skill so you can't have a group of ten running ten and putting it on everyone.

Some of the issues aren't hard to fix if they cared to fix them.

Joy_Division

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

You just have to change everything you're doing and then you have a chance to overcome the incredible defensive advantages that ball groups use to stay alive. Sound advice.

Do you not think that having to change builds to counter different objectives in pvp is interesting?

Like most, I think, I queue into Cyrodiil on a build I want to play and often that isn't a build centered around countering ball groups. Ball groups aren't an objective in Cyrodiil.
As I've said, I have no problem with the offensive strength of coordinated play, my objection is to the defensive strength of certain game mechanics.
But I think I've made my argument too much already to continue going back and forth about it. If these mechanics don't create an unbalanced situation there's really no need to defend them. People protect what they know to be exploitable because they enjoy exploiting it.

From my side I'll normally have a couple different setups available if i'm queuing in solo. 1 for general zerg surf / solo and one for more bombing/group based coordinated play. Compare this to when im playing in group, I carry between 3-5 setups.

I don't think encouraging people to expand their normal setups is a bad thing.

It is if it's to counter an imbalance that could/should be addressed. Sometimes queues into campaigns get longer as time passes and expecting people to change characters to counter this defensively imbalanced playstyle requires waiting in a queue.

Any character can be used to fight, sure there are some which are more effective but also groups, especially ball groups generally have certain days and times they run so its 'expected' to see them on certain nights.

I'm talking about setups for the same character not character switching above.

But you keep insisting that it's on the rest of the community to change what they're doing, and in doing so I think you're being disingenuous about the imbalance created by stacked healing and group purging.
If the rest of the community doesn't change what they're doing to address the imbalance, the imbalance is too great to be overcome by anything besides luck (server lag).
IMO that is too great an imbalance to continue.

I think it was izanagi that said earlier in this thread (I’m not 100% sure) that zos should encourage players to learn and get better at the game rather than keep making it easier for them. Ball groups have been around since the start of the game and people still don’t know how to slot ranged detos and negates. Players flock to the keep with their single target zerg surf builds and just get farmed over and over whilst not being able to do anything because they aren’t using the correct skills or gear.

It’s imbalanced because you have a group of coordinated players using voice and synergised roles/sets vs unorganised pugs that don’t know which skills to use because they aren’t being encouraged to learn the game. Even if u nerfed heal stacking and group purging, ball groups would still have an advantage.

Easier said that done though. I am not going to slot ranged inevitable detonation because it's on overly specialized skill that will put me at a disadvantaged in most combat situations I find myself in an open world environment. And neither is 95% of everyone else since I rarely come across players using that skill and most of those who do are pretty much bantha fodder whenever I fight them. So that's the thing. As players do get better, they figure out for themselves that Zos's "counter" to organized groups hurts them in most of the combat situations they find themselves in so they eventually drop it. I think most players would accept their builds will not be optimal or even "good," vs. a certain type of opponent, but it's another thing to dictate to players that unless they slot highly specialized "correct" skills or gear sets, it's pretty much throw your hands up in the air and might as well go somewhere else on the map.

The convenience of organized groups having specialized stuff like purge and prox det and harmony jewelry is a huge factor in how strong they are relative to everyone else. That's fine, though it does stink that prox det was meant to counter them and let's not pretend as though this is not a mechanical reality in Cyrodiil. I can't even use Purge to give those pugs getting farmed access to this specialized skill because somebody thought it was a brilliant idea to ensure that such a powerful skill was solely to be used by organized groups.

I think most players would accept that by virtue of organization and synergy, organized groups should be stronger, perhaps noticeably so. But when the reasoning becomes they are strong because you're not running skills that will gimp your build in the vast majority of fights you'll be in and they have access to skills that work simply because they are in a group, that's something else.

worrallj

Op you should just play battlegrounds. It sounds like you have a pretty narrow idea of what constitutes legitimate play, but in open world part of the appeal is that you can do it anyway you want. It you wanna be a tight well organized group you can do that, you can siege, you can brawl, you can bomb, whatever.

In battlegrounds, the setting helps to ensure that play follows particular styles - limiting to 4 players, objectives that require players to make themselves vulnerable in some way, etc.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

For me the argument seems to be coming down to: should players have to adapt their build or playstyle to counter some other players.

Honestly for me that has always been one of the key aspects of PvP. It's what makes a game were there are so many sets and combat styles available fun.

I think that expecting to just sit 100% of the time in a Xv1 zergsurf build and never have to deal with anything challenging would be a sad waste of the games potential.

It would be like expecting to do hard mode trials with everyone in a maelstrom arena one bar heavy attack build.

Vizirith

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

For me the argument seems to be coming down to: should players have to adapt their build or playstyle to counter some other players.

Honestly for me that has always been one of the key aspects of PvP. It's what makes a game were there are so many sets and combat styles available fun.

I think that expecting to just sit 100% of the time in a Xv1 zergsurf build and never have to deal with anything challenging would be a sad waste of the games potential.

It would be like expecting to do hard mode trials with everyone in a maelstrom arena one bar heavy attack build.

Yet again just because something has a counter does not make it balanced. If they remove every source of detection from the game and make aoe's not pull nbs out of stealth and the only way to pull them out was via detect pots would it be balanced? No, but by your way of thinking simply because it can be countered by using detect pots means it's perfectly balanced. I think zaan's should have infinite range, after all so long as it can be purged it should be balanced. I think that Snipe should be buffed 100 fold because so long as you can dodge, it's countered and therefore balanced.

You are correct it is sad that people want to never deal with the challenges of not having constant purges and stacking heals.

Sanctum74

There’s been some great suggestions in regards to eliminating heal stacking and cool downs on purge and I’d even be for disabling proxy det and vd for groups, but even if they did that an organized group will always have an advantage. No amount of nerfing is ever going to change that.

Even if they do remove heal stacking and purge cool downs gotta remember that it will also apply to everyone else so you could end up hurting yourself even more.

The biggest problem I see with ball groups isn’t really with them it’s the people they kill. They always chase them wasting all their resources and not keeping their buffs and heals up. Then the ball group turns around and kills them. They follow the same pattern back and forth. Instead of moving 5 feet to the side and keeping their buffs up, they try to run away and get trampled over and over. I don’t think the game should be adjusted for people not willing to learn the basics. Just my opinion as a solo.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

For me the argument seems to be coming down to: should players have to adapt their build or playstyle to counter some other players.

Honestly for me that has always been one of the key aspects of PvP. It's what makes a game were there are so many sets and combat styles available fun.

I think that expecting to just sit 100% of the time in a Xv1 zergsurf build and never have to deal with anything challenging would be a sad waste of the games potential.

It would be like expecting to do hard mode trials with everyone in a maelstrom arena one bar heavy attack build.

Yet again just because something has a counter does not make it balanced. If they remove every source of detection from the game and make aoe's not pull nbs out of stealth and the only way to pull them out was via detect pots would it be balanced? No, but by your way of thinking simply because it can be countered by using detect pots means it's perfectly balanced. I think zaan's should have infinite range, after all so long as it can be purged it should be balanced. I think that Snipe should be buffed 100 fold because so long as you can dodge, it's countered and therefore balanced.

You are correct it is sad that people want to never deal with the challenges of not having constant purges and stacking heals.

So because something has multiple counters it's fine?

Ball groups are weak to ground siege at capture points, bombs/small groups hiding inside pugs, coordinated or intelligent disruption and other groups inside pugs. So they must be fine right?

They are strong against uncoordinated players, faction stacks and less organised groups.

Berenhir

I have some nice footage here to sum up this whole discussion.

It basically shows all aspects of this discussion. We encounter:

- the unresponsive and repetitive behaviour of unorganized groups stacking up again and again
- around 6:00 minutes into the video we see how a small group of "zerglings" suddenly is able to pressure an organized ball group by pulling out single players and disrupting movement
- we see how the leader starts to make mistakes trying to save the tick(which he loses) as well as his players (which he eventually saves)
- we see how this happens due to absolutely *** game additions like rezz ult and earthgore, which - while being a staple of unorganized zerg gameplay - are also used by organized groups

The example group has only three proximity detonations and two players with VD while around two third of their damage is stamina based and doesn't stem from the sources that are deemed as so problematic here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3Fk3WXrw4

Sandman929

Sanctum74 wrote: »

There’s been some great suggestions in regards to eliminating heal stacking and cool downs on purge and I’d even be for disabling proxy det and vd for groups, but even if they did that an organized group will always have an advantage. No amount of nerfing is ever going to change that.

Even if they do remove heal stacking and purge cool downs gotta remember that it will also apply to everyone else so you could end up hurting yourself even more.

The biggest problem I see with ball groups isn’t really with them it’s the people they kill. They always chase them wasting all their resources and not keeping their buffs and heals up. Then the ball group turns around and kills them. They follow the same pattern back and forth. Instead of moving 5 feet to the side and keeping their buffs up, they try to run away and get trampled over and over. I don’t think the game should be adjusted for people not willing to learn the basics. Just my opinion as a solo.

What you're pointing out is an example of their offensive power and coordination, and changing heal stacking and group purging won't impact that at all, agreed. Where I see a problem with balance has to do with their defensive power and those are absolutely tied to stacked healing and group purging.
Changing those defensive mechanics won't change the players who are eager to dive into choke points and get hit by 4-5 ultimates at once, but that's not a problem from my perspective, that's just getting outplayed. Where I see a problem is that the defensive mechanics used by organized groups are so far out of balance versus unorganized groups that even with siege damage, bomb attempts, and disruptive tactics (chaining, fear traps, etc) it still takes almost a perfect storm of lag and bad luck to overcome the defensive power.
That's not healthy and it's not balanced.