ZOS please consider dissolving ball groups

ShadowProc

Kwoung wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But even if they did, Mutagen used to be quite meh (and sometimes not even used) so instead it was Healing Springs, which at least required the group to remain stationary or lose their HoTs, and thus times these groups were vulnerable.

However things used to be, there's no way a powerful HoT that requires no aiming, hits multiple people, and sticks to them should have ever been introduced into the game, let alone have remained for as long as it has. I started this game as a healer so I sympathize with them and it's hard to heal the insane damage that is incoming. But that sort of mitigation/healing power that you always have in that video should be only reserved for limited times or at specific place using an ultimate (which was the entire purpose of something like Veil of Blades).

Since we are discussing old patches, HoT's have always stacked, the reason players didn't use mutagen etc in the past is because of the number of targets hit vs its healing amount. Springs was simply more effective and efficient (due to its magicka return and stacking healing meaning that you could have 4 ticks proc'd at once). The only reason for using mutagen was early pre-buffing and for the built in purge effect if dropping low (was really useful during the Wall of Elements purge bug days).

The thing you are maybe remembering was the old barrier ulti stacking (which required different morphs / levels) so Barrier I and Barrier II would stack, or Barrier + Morph 1 + Morph 2 etc..

Heals in ESO have always been stacking in nature. That is just the design of the game since launch. They have always been active mitigation and it is built into the core foundation of the combat. Even now, Springs from multiple players still stack, you can be hit by the same single target heal from multiple players at once. The only thing which was changed was the ability for individual players to self-stack multiple versions of the same ground effects.

Here's were the important side is. Almost all heals in ESO are smart target, this means that you have no control over who gets the healing. One of the reasons why springs was so strong is that you could control where you were healing (by means of placing the ground effect) and thus you had more control over who you healed. (Its much better to heal where the damage will be than everyone). Radiating regeneration doesn't have this luxury, its heals are very random, if you cast it 3 times there's as much chance that 1 player has his buff refreshed 3 times and 1 player doesn't get any (depending on the incoming dmg at the time). Additionally it only hits a maximum of 3 players. This is half the current healing cap per skill.

It's plus sides are that HoT heals where you don't need to be standing on the healing spot are obviously better for situations where you need to spread out (think the current synergy, proxy scaling, vd meta).
Ironically groups were weaker before because they were forced to stack in the damage due to the healing method (after the AOE cap change) but people cheered that springs was being removed so that "groups couldn't stack up", for me it just tells me that people in general don't understand group combat mechanics whenever I see similar style posts these days.

Now you have those who are upset because healing can only go onto allies within groups, and cheering that ZOS has rescinded this restriction. Yet at the same time calling for heal stacking to be removed. This will mean that you have less healing from ungrouped allies, because when you are low and 4 people cast single target mutagen at you you will only get one of them as an ungrouped player. People when solo tend to only use a certain range of specific heals. Meaning Groups will have even more healing if both went ahead. (from the pugs + their own group).

but as the video above clearly shows, which is composed of at least half stamina players, somehow manage to consistently have 3 and 4 of these HoTs ticking at the same time.

Which part of the video do they consistently have 3 or 4 mutagens (im not talking about some situation where they are not really in combat and everyone is focused on healing - I think if everyone focuses on it then why shouldn't there be multiple heals going out, but in actual combat situations in the video they have barely 1-2 mutagens up, and im sure they have more than 2 healers).

What people don't seem to understand is that if healing is nerfed then groups get more tanky, have more hp.
When healing is higher and damage is lower groups build more squishy in order to deal more damage.

These broken Mechanics will continue to drive players away. Why play that when I can hop on call of duty and have the same chance of killing the other players when you have zero chance in this game. Dying is not fun when the outcome is predicted every time.

I am amazed that some players are so self centered on playing in ball groups and ruining the game for so many. There are a handful of groups that make the game unfun/unplayable for hundreds of others.

But you explained part of your own issue. Cyrodiil isn’t a death match and isn’t just about getting kills. I’m sure there are many individual players or even small groups you wouldn’t be able to kill on equal terms. So are they an issue as well? You shouldn’t have an even chance of killing absolutely anyone you come across because that doesn’t reward players for learning the game... if you don’t want to use the available skills/sets/items etc in the game that counter ballgroups or learn how to disrupt them, then why should you be rewarded by killing them?

Throwing your solo build skills at them isn’t gonna do anything. Setting up a single oil on top of keep isn’t gonna do anything. There is /zone /yell and /say where you can communicate with other players to work towards disrupting and maybe even killing them. If the other players don’t respond to communication well.... then they are the issue. But you can’t nerf ballgroups just because pugs either don’t know what to do in that situation or just choose to be ineffective. Players need to learn what is in the game outside of zerg surf and solo build skills.

Well said. I play in a coordinated group a few hours a week and it is actually quite fun, but it takes a ton of practice, theory crafting, farming sets, trial & error, and tight communications to make it work. Not to mention getting enough people who can commit to showing up. It is overall a ton of effort, much more so than slapping on a bow and hitting L. We have farmed dungeons, trials, etc... many times over just to get a set piece for a member, we practice strategies, movement, etc.. in our houses and empty keeps, and are still doing so, just to make those few hours a week we play together as a group count. I am sure 1vXers and small scale do the same to hone their skills and create the "perfect" build, cause they sure wreck me when I am out by myself.

But I also zerg surf or play in small groups most of the time, which both are also very fun to do. I just think that the zerg surfers feel their sheer overwhelming numbers should destroy everything in their path... regardless of what is generally a complete lack of coordination on their part and they just don't get it won't work. Honestly, a pitchfork carrying mob isn't going to fair well against a trained combat team in any situation, and even if they do overwhelm the team, a lot or even most of them, are going down in the process.

Not what’s being discussed here at all. Get rid of unnecessary buffs to groups that provide artificial advantages on top of having the numbers advantage.

The point is bad groups are getting carried by OP cross healing and purge. It’s broken.

And your points have a lot of holes in them. Combat teams or armies have got beaten throughout history by superior tactics. These mechanics take away superior play beating greater numbers.

These are not pitchforks. I played on great ball groups from launch. That got old. So tried yanking and solo small group play and I realized how much harder it is. Players want to ball up that’s their prerogative. But don’t pretend it’s hard to fight against superior numbers. It’s jokingly easy due to these buffs compared to having to invest in offense defense and utility.

Everyone should have to

NotTaylorSwift

ShadowProc wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But even if they did, Mutagen used to be quite meh (and sometimes not even used) so instead it was Healing Springs, which at least required the group to remain stationary or lose their HoTs, and thus times these groups were vulnerable.

However things used to be, there's no way a powerful HoT that requires no aiming, hits multiple people, and sticks to them should have ever been introduced into the game, let alone have remained for as long as it has. I started this game as a healer so I sympathize with them and it's hard to heal the insane damage that is incoming. But that sort of mitigation/healing power that you always have in that video should be only reserved for limited times or at specific place using an ultimate (which was the entire purpose of something like Veil of Blades).

Since we are discussing old patches, HoT's have always stacked, the reason players didn't use mutagen etc in the past is because of the number of targets hit vs its healing amount. Springs was simply more effective and efficient (due to its magicka return and stacking healing meaning that you could have 4 ticks proc'd at once). The only reason for using mutagen was early pre-buffing and for the built in purge effect if dropping low (was really useful during the Wall of Elements purge bug days).

The thing you are maybe remembering was the old barrier ulti stacking (which required different morphs / levels) so Barrier I and Barrier II would stack, or Barrier + Morph 1 + Morph 2 etc..

Heals in ESO have always been stacking in nature. That is just the design of the game since launch. They have always been active mitigation and it is built into the core foundation of the combat. Even now, Springs from multiple players still stack, you can be hit by the same single target heal from multiple players at once. The only thing which was changed was the ability for individual players to self-stack multiple versions of the same ground effects.

Here's were the important side is. Almost all heals in ESO are smart target, this means that you have no control over who gets the healing. One of the reasons why springs was so strong is that you could control where you were healing (by means of placing the ground effect) and thus you had more control over who you healed. (Its much better to heal where the damage will be than everyone). Radiating regeneration doesn't have this luxury, its heals are very random, if you cast it 3 times there's as much chance that 1 player has his buff refreshed 3 times and 1 player doesn't get any (depending on the incoming dmg at the time). Additionally it only hits a maximum of 3 players. This is half the current healing cap per skill.

It's plus sides are that HoT heals where you don't need to be standing on the healing spot are obviously better for situations where you need to spread out (think the current synergy, proxy scaling, vd meta).
Ironically groups were weaker before because they were forced to stack in the damage due to the healing method (after the AOE cap change) but people cheered that springs was being removed so that "groups couldn't stack up", for me it just tells me that people in general don't understand group combat mechanics whenever I see similar style posts these days.

Now you have those who are upset because healing can only go onto allies within groups, and cheering that ZOS has rescinded this restriction. Yet at the same time calling for heal stacking to be removed. This will mean that you have less healing from ungrouped allies, because when you are low and 4 people cast single target mutagen at you you will only get one of them as an ungrouped player. People when solo tend to only use a certain range of specific heals. Meaning Groups will have even more healing if both went ahead. (from the pugs + their own group).

but as the video above clearly shows, which is composed of at least half stamina players, somehow manage to consistently have 3 and 4 of these HoTs ticking at the same time.

Which part of the video do they consistently have 3 or 4 mutagens (im not talking about some situation where they are not really in combat and everyone is focused on healing - I think if everyone focuses on it then why shouldn't there be multiple heals going out, but in actual combat situations in the video they have barely 1-2 mutagens up, and im sure they have more than 2 healers).

What people don't seem to understand is that if healing is nerfed then groups get more tanky, have more hp.
When healing is higher and damage is lower groups build more squishy in order to deal more damage.

These broken Mechanics will continue to drive players away. Why play that when I can hop on call of duty and have the same chance of killing the other players when you have zero chance in this game. Dying is not fun when the outcome is predicted every time.

I am amazed that some players are so self centered on playing in ball groups and ruining the game for so many. There are a handful of groups that make the game unfun/unplayable for hundreds of others.

But you explained part of your own issue. Cyrodiil isn’t a death match and isn’t just about getting kills. I’m sure there are many individual players or even small groups you wouldn’t be able to kill on equal terms. So are they an issue as well? You shouldn’t have an even chance of killing absolutely anyone you come across because that doesn’t reward players for learning the game... if you don’t want to use the available skills/sets/items etc in the game that counter ballgroups or learn how to disrupt them, then why should you be rewarded by killing them?

Throwing your solo build skills at them isn’t gonna do anything. Setting up a single oil on top of keep isn’t gonna do anything. There is /zone /yell and /say where you can communicate with other players to work towards disrupting and maybe even killing them. If the other players don’t respond to communication well.... then they are the issue. But you can’t nerf ballgroups just because pugs either don’t know what to do in that situation or just choose to be ineffective. Players need to learn what is in the game outside of zerg surf and solo build skills.

[snip] The skills I called out are artificial free buffs that make them way OP.

And you just summed up the ball group goal. In fact it is a death match and yes they do want as many cheesy kills as possible at the expense of performance at the expense of other players experience.

My point is to remove iMessage buffs to them and allow them to be killed and picked off by strategy.

Yes, for ballgroups its a deathmatch but they are built to kill zergs... zergs main focus is to take keeps. So for zergs it is not a deathmatch. You sound mad that you are dying to ballgroups with no chance to kill them but it's quite simple that zergs aren't built to kill ballgroups. And if you are playing IN a zerg then you're playing with other people who aren't built to kill ballgroups. The fact that people refuse to swap skills and gear when a ballgroup shows up is probably one of the biggest issues.

Like you seemed to revolve your last post around the fact that you cant kill a ballgroup and you end up dying, implying that you get farmed by them. My point was that if your're playing to get kills then zerging isn't what you should be doing because the goal of zergs is to take map objectives. And also ballgrouping is not at the expense of other players cyrodiil experience. [snip] If you dont want to fight them then go somewhere else, if you want to kill them then change your build and skills and use the chat. If you don't then you can't be upset about being ineffective against them. You also realise that if you remove heal stacking then zergs will die even easier right?

[Edited to remove Baiting]

JanTanhide

The only way to do what you are asking is to ban groups in Cyrodil.

IxSTALKERxI

lol even if you ban grouping and healing allies, could still have a group of individuals bombing with pale order.
nerf all the thingz!
Can't nerf teamwork though.

Stridig

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But even if they did, Mutagen used to be quite meh (and sometimes not even used) so instead it was Healing Springs, which at least required the group to remain stationary or lose their HoTs, and thus times these groups were vulnerable.

However things used to be, there's no way a powerful HoT that requires no aiming, hits multiple people, and sticks to them should have ever been introduced into the game, let alone have remained for as long as it has. I started this game as a healer so I sympathize with them and it's hard to heal the insane damage that is incoming. But that sort of mitigation/healing power that you always have in that video should be only reserved for limited times or at specific place using an ultimate (which was the entire purpose of something like Veil of Blades).

Since we are discussing old patches, HoT's have always stacked, the reason players didn't use mutagen etc in the past is because of the number of targets hit vs its healing amount. Springs was simply more effective and efficient (due to its magicka return and stacking healing meaning that you could have 4 ticks proc'd at once). The only reason for using mutagen was early pre-buffing and for the built in purge effect if dropping low (was really useful during the Wall of Elements purge bug days).

The thing you are maybe remembering was the old barrier ulti stacking (which required different morphs / levels) so Barrier I and Barrier II would stack, or Barrier + Morph 1 + Morph 2 etc..

Heals in ESO have always been stacking in nature. That is just the design of the game since launch. They have always been active mitigation and it is built into the core foundation of the combat. Even now, Springs from multiple players still stack, you can be hit by the same single target heal from multiple players at once. The only thing which was changed was the ability for individual players to self-stack multiple versions of the same ground effects.

Here's were the important side is. Almost all heals in ESO are smart target, this means that you have no control over who gets the healing. One of the reasons why springs was so strong is that you could control where you were healing (by means of placing the ground effect) and thus you had more control over who you healed. (Its much better to heal where the damage will be than everyone). Radiating regeneration doesn't have this luxury, its heals are very random, if you cast it 3 times there's as much chance that 1 player has his buff refreshed 3 times and 1 player doesn't get any (depending on the incoming dmg at the time). Additionally it only hits a maximum of 3 players. This is half the current healing cap per skill.

It's plus sides are that HoT heals where you don't need to be standing on the healing spot are obviously better for situations where you need to spread out (think the current synergy, proxy scaling, vd meta).
Ironically groups were weaker before because they were forced to stack in the damage due to the healing method (after the AOE cap change) but people cheered that springs was being removed so that "groups couldn't stack up", for me it just tells me that people in general don't understand group combat mechanics whenever I see similar style posts these days.

Now you have those who are upset because healing can only go onto allies within groups, and cheering that ZOS has rescinded this restriction. Yet at the same time calling for heal stacking to be removed. This will mean that you have less healing from ungrouped allies, because when you are low and 4 people cast single target mutagen at you you will only get one of them as an ungrouped player. People when solo tend to only use a certain range of specific heals. Meaning Groups will have even more healing if both went ahead. (from the pugs + their own group).

but as the video above clearly shows, which is composed of at least half stamina players, somehow manage to consistently have 3 and 4 of these HoTs ticking at the same time.

Which part of the video do they consistently have 3 or 4 mutagens (im not talking about some situation where they are not really in combat and everyone is focused on healing - I think if everyone focuses on it then why shouldn't there be multiple heals going out, but in actual combat situations in the video they have barely 1-2 mutagens up, and im sure they have more than 2 healers).

What people don't seem to understand is that if healing is nerfed then groups get more tanky, have more hp.
When healing is higher and damage is lower groups build more squishy in order to deal more damage.

These broken Mechanics will continue to drive players away. Why play that when I can hop on call of duty and have the same chance of killing the other players when you have zero chance in this game. Dying is not fun when the outcome is predicted every time.

I am amazed that some players are so self centered on playing in ball groups and ruining the game for so many. There are a handful of groups that make the game unfun/unplayable for hundreds of others.

But you explained part of your own issue. Cyrodiil isn’t a death match and isn’t just about getting kills. I’m sure there are many individual players or even small groups you wouldn’t be able to kill on equal terms. So are they an issue as well? You shouldn’t have an even chance of killing absolutely anyone you come across because that doesn’t reward players for learning the game... if you don’t want to use the available skills/sets/items etc in the game that counter ballgroups or learn how to disrupt them, then why should you be rewarded by killing them?

Throwing your solo build skills at them isn’t gonna do anything. Setting up a single oil on top of keep isn’t gonna do anything. There is /zone /yell and /say where you can communicate with other players to work towards disrupting and maybe even killing them. If the other players don’t respond to communication well.... then they are the issue. But you can’t nerf ballgroups just because pugs either don’t know what to do in that situation or just choose to be ineffective. Players need to learn what is in the game outside of zerg surf and solo build skills.

[snip] The skills I called out are artificial free buffs that make them way OP.

And you just summed up the ball group goal. In fact it is a death match and yes they do want as many cheesy kills as possible at the expense of performance at the expense of other players experience.

My point is to remove iMessage buffs to them and allow them to be killed and picked off by strategy.

Yes, for ballgroups its a deathmatch but they are built to kill zergs... zergs main focus is to take keeps. So for zergs it is not a deathmatch. You sound mad that you are dying to ballgroups with no chance to kill them but it's quite simple that zergs aren't built to kill ballgroups. And if you are playing IN a zerg then you're playing with other people who aren't built to kill ballgroups. The fact that people refuse to swap skills and gear when a ballgroup shows up is probably one of the biggest issues.

Like you seemed to revolve your last post around the fact that you cant kill a ballgroup and you end up dying, implying that you get farmed by them. My point was that if your're playing to get kills then zerging isn't what you should be doing because the goal of zergs is to take map objectives. And also ballgrouping is not at the expense of other players cyrodiil experience. [snip] If you dont want to fight them then go somewhere else, if you want to kill them then change your build and skills and use the chat. If you don't then you can't be upset about being ineffective against them. You also realise that if you remove heal stacking then zergs will die even easier right?

How do you switch gear and skills while stuck in combat until the ball group decides to death port somewhere? I don't disagree with some of the things you said but that suggestion is simply impossible.

Satiar

All ZoS has to do is keep up Fridays lag a little while longer. We’ll voluntarily dissolve ourselves.

Sahidom

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

techyeshic

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

Sanctum74

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

Actually it’s the opposite, cross healing still worked in ball groups giving them an advantage and ball groups never run more than 12 people anyway so it made it easier for them to kill other pug groups.

allan0n

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

Actually it’s the opposite, cross healing still worked in ball groups giving them an advantage and ball groups never run more than 12 people anyway so it made it easier for them to kill other pug groups.

I guess you don't play in GH, because there are at least 3 guilds that consider themselves ball groups who frequently run with more than 12 while surfing their own factions pug zergs. They went from being very difficult to kill to being nearly unkillable with additional aoe heals from ungrouped faction members. Ain't no one gonna convince me that cross heals weaken your average "ball group" since I constantly see the opposite play out. No amount of pug heals are going to save you from 10+ proxy dets+impulses+destro ults+harmony bombs.

I almost always play ungrouped or with one other person, so you'd think think I'd be happy to have cross heals back, but im not. At least people died with no cross heals, instead of constantly being pulled out of the fire by zerglings spamming radiating regen like its the only skill they know. Fights last way too long now, and ball groupa are loving having cross heals back.

Sahidom

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

Actually it’s the opposite, cross healing still worked in ball groups giving them an advantage and ball groups never run more than 12 people anyway so it made it easier for them to kill other pug groups.

Some of the Warden and a few others ignored the cross healing rule. But, remove cross healing and fix those skill leaks that break the rule; AND you will see the mortality rate of ball groups (multiple 12-man groupings); Now with the no proc rule being tested also made an impact on ball groups. As someone else mentioned, their mortality is felt.

Sandman929

People keep mentioning cross healing. Cross healing helps disorganized groups, group only healing helps ball groups. Cross healing isn't really part of the discussion about ball groups IMO, though they benefit from having their heals locked to their group rather than firing off to ungrouped allies.
People are, of course, going to defend what they enjoy and throw on the blinders when something that they enjoy is unbalanced. They blame everyone else and insist that players who can't or don't exploit an imbalance must learn to counter the imbalance rather than admit that an imbalance exists, and certainly not admit that it's being exploited.
They're just being smart and awesome.
I've played in organized groups and enjoy doing so. Even simply coordinating and communicating can put any group composition in a better position to fight outnumbered, broken or overpowered mechanics don't have to be defended to still outperform larger, disorganized numbers. These mechanics are defended for the sake of overperforming against larger numbers.
Heal stacking and purge are overperforming. If people want to deflect and pretend they aren't, I understand because it's easy to believe the performance is you...you're just great and it has nothing to do with any imbalance. I've already explained how heal stacking and group purging elevated coordinated groups too far above disorganized groups and I think these mechanics are exploitable at the expense of game performance and the communities enjoyment of the game. These mechanics are too defensively strong to continue IMO, but not to worry, ZOS likely won't address it...they haven't for years.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Sahidom

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I agree with you. These changes wouldn't stop good ball groups. Their leaders and supporting guild members may have adjusted and perform well under these conditions.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. While the no-proc test disables many sets, I sort of hope they reintroduce some of the none damaging or healing sets, see how the climate of the players feel then move towards the enabling of the other proc sets. This isn't to point fingers at anyone; but you shouldn't conceal class imbalance with a proc set.

They should have enough data to narrow down the performance issues to evaluate what changes or hardware improvements are necessary. Some of these tests seem to be centered around what type of PVP experience do they want to encourage and promote, as their signature product; right now, it's a horrible mess.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

Sahidom

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

I dont know why your getting a night and day experience because I haven't experienced the lag monster during the test cycle.

This just seems to remind me of the old Cable broadband verus DSL problem where their shared bandwidth bogged down individual connections during peak community use hours.

For instance, one person up in Alaska used 75% of the bandwidth in one community due to his downloading habits. It eventually caused the company to address the issue because it impacted the other users negatively.

Not saying this is the cause of your problem or escaping ZOS from their responsibilities but there could be numerous reasons why there's a division on why some get good and why some get bad.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sahidom wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

I dont know why your getting a night and day experience because I haven't experienced the lag monster during the test cycle.

This just seems to remind me of the old Cable broadband verus DSL problem where their shared bandwidth bogged down individual connections during peak community use hours.

For instance, one person up in Alaska used 75% of the bandwidth in one community due to his downloading habits. It eventually caused the company to address the issue because it impacted the other users negatively.

Not saying this is the cause of your problem or escaping ZOS from their responsibilities but there could be numerous reasons why there's a division on why some get good and why some get bad.

I don't think anyone can really know for sure but here are some of the anecdotal things we've noticed.

It seems like loading of players in cyrodiil is one of the most intensive parts of the connection, when players crash approaching a keep it is because they are loading in too many players at once (you can see this in your connection log). Players also get unloaded based on view distance and general distance from eachother.

Conversely it means that if you have all these players loaded in (i.e. you are running in a full group and along side 1 or 2 other groups) then you have already taken this 'hit' to your connection and your performance is a lot better due to it.

We've had situations in the past where we've been on the same faction as certain 48m groups and they have all rode past us suddenly and players in our group have crashed due to it. (this was quite some time ago but it highlights the issue).

Secondly, Player effects - In groups/same faction there is some filtering of player effects, you don't see as many animation particles etc as you do when you are fighting enemies whilst outnumbered. (because enemy animations show up in more detail).

This is why to 1 ungrouped player fighting a 12m group feels 'laggy' because that player is having to load all those players effects and characters where as the group is only having to load the 1 players effects and character, Then you have the situation where the group is heavily outnumbered - they are having to load all the effects and characters that outnumber them where as generally the players that outnumber are loading 'less' or are in groups of their own.

The problem is heavily exacerbated by number of players alive performing actions, that's why when a test such as the current one makes it harder to kill enemies quickly (due to lower damage output from sets). The lag gets proportionally worse. (not to mention the instrumentation running on the server to log the event). When we've been in fights vs 30+ players and we've killed them quickly in this event the lag is fine. If we don't manage to kill a large proportion of them quickly (or they have respawns inside the keep / camps etc and can 'stay alive' a long time) it gets progressively harder to kill them due to the increased lag the fight now has for the outnumbered group.

ShadowProc

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

Good clip selection. DC Ball group trying to set up a farm to kill performance and gets steam rolled.

Well they got their wish and got a big response.

Also worth noting if they were able to get in they would have ran up and down and concentrated more players which would have tanked performance.

So steamroll on front porch was best outcome.

ShadowProc

That’s how soloers and small groups feel trying to break up a farm when getting rolled over by a farm group.

So if 12 to 1 it is okay but when it’s 60 to 12 it’s not? Hmm. Something is wrong here.

techyeshic

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

I dont know why your getting a night and day experience because I haven't experienced the lag monster during the test cycle.

This just seems to remind me of the old Cable broadband verus DSL problem where their shared bandwidth bogged down individual connections during peak community use hours.

For instance, one person up in Alaska used 75% of the bandwidth in one community due to his downloading habits. It eventually caused the company to address the issue because it impacted the other users negatively.

Not saying this is the cause of your problem or escaping ZOS from their responsibilities but there could be numerous reasons why there's a division on why some get good and why some get bad.

I don't think anyone can really know for sure but here are some of the anecdotal things we've noticed.

It seems like loading of players in cyrodiil is one of the most intensive parts of the connection, when players crash approaching a keep it is because they are loading in too many players at once (you can see this in your connection log). Players also get unloaded based on view distance and general distance from eachother.

Conversely it means that if you have all these players loaded in (i.e. you are running in a full group and along side 1 or 2 other groups) then you have already taken this 'hit' to your connection and your performance is a lot better due to it.

We've had situations in the past where we've been on the same faction as certain 48m groups and they have all rode past us suddenly and players in our group have crashed due to it. (this was quite some time ago but it highlights the issue).

Secondly, Player effects - In groups/same faction there is some filtering of player effects, you don't see as many animation particles etc as you do when you are fighting enemies whilst outnumbered. (because enemy animations show up in more detail).

This is why to 1 ungrouped player fighting a 12m group feels 'laggy' because that player is having to load all those players effects and characters where as the group is only having to load the 1 players effects and character, Then you have the situation where the group is heavily outnumbered - they are having to load all the effects and characters that outnumber them where as generally the players that outnumber are loading 'less' or are in groups of their own.

The problem is heavily exacerbated by number of players alive performing actions, that's why when a test such as the current one makes it harder to kill enemies quickly (due to lower damage output from sets). The lag gets proportionally worse. (not to mention the instrumentation running on the server to log the event). When we've been in fights vs 30+ players and we've killed them quickly in this event the lag is fine. If we don't manage to kill a large proportion of them quickly (or they have respawns inside the keep / camps etc and can 'stay alive' a long time) it gets progressively harder to kill them due to the increased lag the fight now has for the outnumbered group.

The only crashes I have had lately has been after being in a queue for a while, finally get in, and ride in to a large fight. Or maybe I just remember these as I am concerned it won't get me back in and I'll somehow have to requeue.

Ability delay seems to be all the time but I am starting to wonder about keep guard NPCs making it worse.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

Good clip selection. DC Ball group trying to set up a farm to kill performance and gets steam rolled.

Well they got their wish and got a big response.

Also worth noting if they were able to get in they would have ram up and down and concentrated more players which would have ranked performance.

So steamroll on front porch was best outcome.

You might not have observed the fact that it was pugs + a pug group + 2 'ball groups' inside the response force.

I am curious though as to what you think happens if the 'ball group' trying to spread the fight away from the frontlines simply goes to the front lines too. Do you think there will be less lag?

ShadowProc

Well first off I stated numbers. I saw who was in it but my argument the same as far as odds.

Secondly this was not back lines. This was a well know farm group that was trying to get between AD and EP to get maximum farm. They take Sej and fight EP from BRK while AD gets Allessia and then they farm both.

If AD fails to respond the farm group moves to Allessia and lets EP take Sej. So they can farm both factions. Or farm the bridge between them.

Point still stands. I know because they do this same BS tactic to farm EVERY WEEK. lol

And enough about back lines and trying to spread out. Seriously. Not fooling experienced players. Majority of the time it’s to get maximum farm

Sandman929

ShadowProc wrote: »

Well first off I stated numbers. I saw who was in it but my argument the same as far as odds.

Secondly this was not back lines. This was a well know farm group that was trying to get between AD and EP to get maximum farm. They take Sej and fight EP from BRK while AD gets Allessia and then they farm both.

If AD fails to respond the farm group moves to Allessia and lets EP take Sej. So they can farm both factions. Or farm the bridge between them.

Point still stands. I know because they do this same BS tactic to farm EVERY WEEK. lol

And enough about back lines and trying to spread out. Seriously. Not fooling experienced players. Majority of the time it’s to get maximum farm

Yeah, the "backlines" only lasts if it bring enough players to kill..and to do that it becomes a frontline. Someone fighting on the back lines is a solo player on a resource hoping to bring 2-3 to him. A group hoping to bring 30-40 is just moving the front line.

QuebraRegra

forztr2 wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

These people are working together and having a good time?!! ZOS nerf this immediately! Fun is not allowed in Cyrodiil!!

I would assume they can work together and have a good time even if they are not all balled up. For every 10 people that have fun playing in them there are 50-100 people that hate fighting against them.

how are they going to work together in a group without being near each other? Maybe those 50-100 should learn some teamwork.

Maybe the ball groups would enjoy the challenge of not having:

1) Stacking HOTS
2) AOE stuns that don't grant immunity on break so they can be chained.
3) Large AOE damage that follows the group.
4) Almost permanent immunity to roots, slows, and hard cc.

Currently PVP is stacked well in favour of ball groups. The latest changes to group only heals only widened the gap. At this point I really think ZOS have given up on Cyrodiil and want to kill the numbers to a point where they can say look people aren't really interested in Cyrodiil so we're going to close it down.

HOTS of the same type shouldn't stack.
All stuns should give a few seconds of immunity if you break
AOEs that move with the player should be limited to melee range in radius. 5m
Purge needs to be reworked. I'd have one morph for self only that was cheaper than the alternative AOE version, I'd also cap the number of effects removed per cast to 3 or 4.

Finally for fun I'd makes siege dots and effects unpurgeable.

the stun immunity broke since what, launch?

Kwoung

Honestly it is pretty messed up. During this test I have been in huge fights with no lag, and skirmishes where people got disconnected. I have been discoed numerous times riding up to keeps, or played the entire night lag free. This is on both Greyhost & Blackreach, which are basically behaving the same now during the test, while previously BR was lag free, even when pop-locked. The one major difference on BR during this test, is a whole slew of groups moved over that don't normally play there, same thing happened during MYM and performance on BR tanked... while a lot of folks said GH was performing better.

I am really under the impression that ZOS is changing things on the backend to test different things out at this point though, what else could account for the wildly different performance results people are having during this test.