ZOS please consider dissolving ball groups

maboleth

Or making their life harder at least.

They stress the server in one tiny place far too much, are not using any strategy for taking keeps or fighting the war at Cyrodiil and are quite big annoyance to everyone else.
People waste time taking these pests out and are missing other defenses or attacks.

Ball groups should do battlegrounds actually, not AvA. Please conisder it @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Kartalin

maboleth wrote: »

.
People waste time taking these pests out and are missing other defenses or attacks.

Sounds like what you actually want is smarter pugs.

Don’t we all.

LarsS

maboleth wrote: »

Or making their life harder at least.

They stress the server in one tiny place far too much, are not using any strategy for taking keeps or fighting the war at Cyrodiil and are quite big annoyance to everyone else.
People waste time taking these pests out and are missing other defenses or attacks.

Ball groups should do battlegrounds actually, not AvA. Please conisder it @ZOS_BrianWheeler

You are basically asking zos to forbid groups in cyro, wont happen. Join a pvp guild instead.

Edited for baiting

maboleth

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

idk

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

Greasytengu

These people are working together and having a good time?!! ZOS nerf this immediately! Fun is not allowed in Cyrodiil!!

ThreeXB

maboleth wrote: »

Or making their life harder at least.

They stress the server in one tiny place far too much, are not using any strategy for taking keeps or fighting the war at Cyrodiil and are quite big annoyance to everyone else.
People waste time taking these pests out and are missing other defenses or attacks.

Ball groups should do battlegrounds actually, not AvA. Please conisder it @ZOS_BrianWheeler

What are you actually asking? Remove groups? Remove good experienced groups? This doesn't make sense.

Ranger209

Greasytengu wrote: »

These people are working together and having a good time?!! ZOS nerf this immediately! Fun is not allowed in Cyrodiil!!

I would assume they can work together and have a good time even if they are not all balled up. For every 10 people that have fun playing in them there are 50-100 people that hate fighting against them.

Greasytengu

Ranger209 wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

These people are working together and having a good time?!! ZOS nerf this immediately! Fun is not allowed in Cyrodiil!!

I would assume they can work together and have a good time even if they are not all balled up. For every 10 people that have fun playing in them there are 50-100 people that hate fighting against them.

how are they going to work together in a group without being near each other? Maybe those 50-100 should learn some teamwork.

Faded

maboleth wrote: »

They stress the server in one tiny place far too much

I know exactly what you're talking about here, but this is not on them, they're just playing the game. Terrible performance is 100% on Zenimax. Cannibalizing what's left of the PVP community won't save Cyrodiil.

Recent changes have done nothing but add reasons for people who don't hate that playstyle to adopt wrecking ball tactics. That's what they did about ball groups.

forztr2

Greasytengu wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

These people are working together and having a good time?!! ZOS nerf this immediately! Fun is not allowed in Cyrodiil!!

I would assume they can work together and have a good time even if they are not all balled up. For every 10 people that have fun playing in them there are 50-100 people that hate fighting against them.

how are they going to work together in a group without being near each other? Maybe those 50-100 should learn some teamwork.

Maybe the ball groups would enjoy the challenge of not having:

1) Stacking HOTS
2) AOE stuns that don't grant immunity on break so they can be chained.
3) Large AOE damage that follows the group.
4) Almost permanent immunity to roots, slows, and hard cc.

Currently PVP is stacked well in favour of ball groups. The latest changes to group only heals only widened the gap. At this point I really think ZOS have given up on Cyrodiil and want to kill the numbers to a point where they can say look people aren't really interested in Cyrodiil so we're going to close it down.

HOTS of the same type shouldn't stack.
All stuns should give a few seconds of immunity if you break
AOEs that move with the player should be limited to melee range in radius. 5m
Purge needs to be reworked. I'd have one morph for self only that was cheaper than the alternative AOE version, I'd also cap the number of effects removed per cast to 3 or 4.

Finally for fun I'd makes siege dots and effects unpurgeable.

Crash427

Ballgroups are probably as weak as they've been in a long time. Sure the change to group only healing helped us but I haven't seen any group farming a keep the way groups used too. It's pretty much impossible when crown crashes to desktop, then the group member who gets crown doesn't realize they have it at first but manage to transfer it to back up shotcaller only for that person to crash. Now you have a group designed to run a very specific comp trying to survive with out its leader and with 50 "solo" players spamming meteors and knockbacks to lag you to death.

NeillMcAttack

Crash427 wrote: »

Ballgroups are probably as weak as they've been in a long time. Sure the change to group only healing helped us but I haven't seen any group farming a keep the way groups used too. It's pretty much impossible when crown crashes to desktop, then the group member who gets crown doesn't realize they have it at first but manage to transfer it to back up shotcaller only for that person to crash. Now you have a group designed to run a very specific comp trying to survive with out its leader and with 50 "solo" players spamming meteors and knockbacks to lag you to death.

Are you saying ballgroups are balanced because often the crown crashes and the Zergs are spamming more than them causing them to crash?

NeillMcAttack

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

VaranisArano

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

ZOS said that before the Cyrodiil testing. During the testing, ZOS tried everything they could to nerf ball groups and found that nothing made a big difference in performance.

At this point, I don't know what you really do to ban ball groups. Tightly organized groups with set roles and gear are simply the most efficient tactic available for large group combat in Cyrodiil. Do you outlaw using voice comms?

NeillMcAttack

VaranisArano wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

ZOS said that before the Cyrodiil testing. During the testing, ZOS tried everything they could to nerf ball groups and found that nothing made a big difference in performance.

At this point, I don't know what you really do to ban ball groups. Tightly organized groups with set roles and gear are simply the most efficient tactic available for large group combat in Cyrodiil. Do you outlaw using voice comms?

You could further reduce group size to 6, if we agree that the alliance cross healing removal, and reduced group size from 24 to 12 helped get the game playable, at least outside prime time, we need to continue in this direction until we at least have basic functionality during peak hours. This helps balance the insane buffs that are so easy to maintain in 12 man ballstacks. Give a chance to somewhat compete against them in sub-optimized and solo players, help split combat to different areas of the map, and hopefully help performance. At least until we have more appropriate performance fixes. I’m not saying anything needs to be a permanent change.

Until we have a functional and balanced environment in Cyro, it’s popularity is destined to continue in decline.

VaranisArano

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

ZOS said that before the Cyrodiil testing. During the testing, ZOS tried everything they could to nerf ball groups and found that nothing made a big difference in performance.

At this point, I don't know what you really do to ban ball groups. Tightly organized groups with set roles and gear are simply the most efficient tactic available for large group combat in Cyrodiil. Do you outlaw using voice comms?

You could further reduce group size to 6, if we agree that the alliance cross healing removal, and reduced group size from 24 to 12 helped get the game playable, at least outside prime time, we need to continue in this direction until we at least have basic functionality during peak hours. This helps balance the insane buffs that are so easy to maintain in 12 man ballstacks. Give a chance to somewhat compete against them in sub-optimized and solo players, help split combat to different areas of the map, and hopefully help performance. At least until we have more appropriate performance fixes. I’m not saying anything needs to be a permanent change.

Until we have a functional and balanced environment in Cyro, it’s popularity is destined to continue in decline.

I don't know that I can agree with that, when ZOS says they didn't see performance improvements from the group size and group healing changes. Those were behavioral changes, not for performance.

And I think your solution, permanent or not, amounts to destroying much of group-centered large scale combat that Cyrodiil is built for. PUGs have a hard enough time being effective with 12 players. Forcing them and, worse, newer players into smaller and smaller groups that still can't compete with an organized group of equal size isn't very helpful either.

LarsS

Group size wont kill organized groups, any decent pvp guild with theory crafter can adapt. Please try to understand an organized group of friends on voicecom will always have a huge advantage over unorganized players.

If anything the tests showed that aoe is not the problem thus ballgroups are not the performance problem.

maboleth

So Rich said this:
"However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

but then some claim aoes have nothing to do with performance?!
I don't know where Zos or anyone else found that, but not only is contradicting itself, it simply isn't true.
Every player can feel performance degradation when around these ball groups with infinite sustain and healing.

And fair enough - their way of using abilities is legit, as Rich himself said... but they are wasting resources doing nothing for the game goals, except their own. Most of these guys don't conquer or do anything and couldn't care less about winning the campaign or emp.

VaranisArano

maboleth wrote: »

So Rich said this:
"However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

but then some claim aoes have nothing to do with performance?!
I don't know where Zos or anyone else found that, but not only is contradicting itself, it simply isn't true.
Every player can feel performance degradation when around these ball groups with infinite sustain and healing.

And fair enough - their way of using abilities is legit, as Rich himself said... but they are wasting resources doing nothing for the game goals, except their own. Most of these guys don't conquer or do anything and couldn't care less about winning the campaign or emp.

Well, its more that Rich said that, then ZOS did a ton of testing and changes to AOEs...and found it didn't make a noticeable difference in performance.

Specifically:
"In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought."

Link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544305/details-for-aoe-testing-in-cyrodiil


Look, if ZOS were out here saying, "Hey, guys, we nerfed your AOEs because it made a big difference," you'd probably see more players in favor.

But they didn't. They said the opposite. Plus, the changes they made did absolutely nothing to the sort of ball group who farms PUGs in a 12-man group at a back keep.

Crash427

Rich is wrong. We can't "cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources." It may seem like it but it's simply not true.

And if that were the case, why did they just buff major intellect?

Most people probably aren't aware but there was a player organized GvG earlier this year we attended. Five ballgroups all fighting at the same time and the game was mostly functional. According to some people here on the forums that shouldn't have been possible. A couple of updates later and we can't even keep 12 people logged in at the same time for the duration of a fight.

But sure, keep blaming the players for the state of the game.

idk

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

Nothing in here defines a group that contributes nothing to the game which is what OP said defined a ball group.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

ZOS said that before the Cyrodiil testing. During the testing, ZOS tried everything they could to nerf ball groups and found that nothing made a big difference in performance.

At this point, I don't know what you really do to ban ball groups. Tightly organized groups with set roles and gear are simply the most efficient tactic available for large group combat in Cyrodiil. Do you outlaw using voice comms?

You could further reduce group size to 6, if we agree that the alliance cross healing removal, and reduced group size from 24 to 12 helped get the game playable, at least outside prime time, we need to continue in this direction until we at least have basic functionality during peak hours. This helps balance the insane buffs that are so easy to maintain in 12 man ballstacks. Give a chance to somewhat compete against them in sub-optimized and solo players, help split combat to different areas of the map, and hopefully help performance. At least until we have more appropriate performance fixes. I’m not saying anything needs to be a permanent change.

Until we have a functional and balanced environment in Cyro, it’s popularity is destined to continue in decline.

Zos specifically stated that none of the testings offered a significant reduction to the server performance issue and that would include all the testing with the smaller group size. Zos also made clear they chose to reduce the group size and healing because they liked the behavior changes so this change was not to improve performance.

NeillMcAttack

idk wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

Nothing in here defines a group that contributes nothing to the game which is what OP said defined a ball group.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

idk wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? I'm not against groups, whatsoever, even though I play solo most of the time. And not against zergs either. But ball groups. The mechanics of it, endless heals and toxic trolling without doing anything for the game.

You know, it's funny how in the game itself people that actually play Cyrodiil (attacking keeps, defending, scrolls, strategy, battling etc.) HATE ball groups. And I wrote this post on behalf of those players in Cyrodiil, knowing it's futile, but at least to try.

But here, on forums, it's like - shoot the messenger. Alright. Shoot.

How does Zos determine when a group is not doing anything for the game? From what I see here it sounds like any group that an average group cannot kill regardless of their skill level and quality of leadership.

I have yet to find this plague of ball groups.

You obviously can’t see the forest from the trees.

Quote from Rich Lambert;
“ However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.”

But I know you are aware of this. Until there are solid fixes for the lag, the best solution in the short term should be to limit ballgroups as they are both broken OP, and also the largest cause of performance issues in Cyro.

ZOS said that before the Cyrodiil testing. During the testing, ZOS tried everything they could to nerf ball groups and found that nothing made a big difference in performance.

At this point, I don't know what you really do to ban ball groups. Tightly organized groups with set roles and gear are simply the most efficient tactic available for large group combat in Cyrodiil. Do you outlaw using voice comms?

You could further reduce group size to 6, if we agree that the alliance cross healing removal, and reduced group size from 24 to 12 helped get the game playable, at least outside prime time, we need to continue in this direction until we at least have basic functionality during peak hours. This helps balance the insane buffs that are so easy to maintain in 12 man ballstacks. Give a chance to somewhat compete against them in sub-optimized and solo players, help split combat to different areas of the map, and hopefully help performance. At least until we have more appropriate performance fixes. I’m not saying anything needs to be a permanent change.

Until we have a functional and balanced environment in Cyro, it’s popularity is destined to continue in decline.

Zos specifically stated that none of the testings offered a significant reduction to the server performance issue and that would include all the testing with the smaller group size. Zos also made clear they chose to reduce the group size and healing because they liked the behavior changes so this change was not to improve performance.

Perhaps not, but it does constitute an argument against a playstyle that degrades performance a great deal. And a lot of players first hand experiences show an agreement to that statement.

As for Gina’s statement;
"In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought."

She clearly states that the tests provided an average of a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes, so to say otherwise is not true. She also states that “while these improvements look good on a spread sheet, they do not have a significant enough improvement on the overall player experience”, not to be confused with performance. Which I’m sure we can all agree with , as the overall player experience isn’t close to where it should be, for any of our play styles.

So your entire argument against any further limitations hinges on the argument of whether or not the limitations were made to influence “behavioural changes” and not “reduce server frame spikes”.

NeillMcAttack

Crash427 wrote: »

Rich is wrong. We can't "cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources." It may seem like it but it's simply not true.

And if that were the case, why did they just buff major intellect?

Most people probably aren't aware but there was a player organized GvG earlier this year we attended. Five ballgroups all fighting at the same time and the game was mostly functional. According to some people here on the forums that shouldn't have been possible. A couple of updates later and we can't even keep 12 people logged in at the same time for the duration of a fight.

But sure, keep blaming the players for the state of the game.

And what server was this on?
Was the campaign pop-locked?
Was this prior to update 25?

Nobody is blaming players for the state of Cyro. That is on Zeni, and mostly due to U25, the so called “block changes” that put all processes server side, possibly to accommodate the implementation of Stadia.
Unless you can see them reversing that decision, further sacrifices and changes will have to be made to get prime time Cyro functional, if ZOS care that is. But imagining they won’t, many players have already made huge sacrifices in their play styles to get Cyro somewhat functional. Solo players can’t support other solo players, the natural counter to the ball group, the faction stack, has been nerfed into the ground, and gameplay is still shite during prime and most of the weekends.

My argument is simply to continue in the direction of performance first, that way the game becomes easier to balance, and it offers a point that is easier to build on going forward.

HankTwo

Honestly with all the buffs to certain group sets like powerful assault, spell power cure, meritorious service, and so on, the increase of certain buff effects like minor intellect, endurance and expedition, the introduction of snow treaders, which can make a whole raid 100% immune against immobilizations and snares, as well as the general group healing changes, I think the moment orb synergy gets fixed this will be one of the strongest ball group patches ever (overlooking random crashes). For me the question is: when will this playstyle become too strong? And imo when orbs gets fixed we are past the point of balance.

A good example to look at is powerful assault. When compared to an entirely selfish, but mechanically similar set like seventh legion, you would sacrifice a measly 34 weapon damage and 341 health regen, but gain 307 extra spell damage on top. The set also has arguably better 2-4 piece boni. So even in a duo you can make the point that powerful assault would be the better set. Now in a large scale raid, the benefit of this set just becomes so much stronger, to the point where I'd say its definitely over-budgeted in such a setting.

Furthermore and contrary to what some ball group players claim, there are definitely ways to specifically nerf this playstyle without really harming solo, small scale, or even more random large scale groups. Here is a list of possible changes:
- Make purge and rapid maneuver only affect you, and up to 3 nearby group members. And potentially: remove the 4 seconds of persistent major expedition from path of darkness
- Make orb synergy only heal the player who activates it and/or only allow 1 synergy per orb cast. The amount of healing a single orb can do in stacked raids is insane (when it gets fixed), and depending on the amount of players who use the synergy the healing is well above even healing ults
- Give synergies a global cooldown, maybe 2 seconds. Or potentially more extreme: make synergy cooldowns group wide, so if one player uses a certain synergy no other player in the group can use the same for 20 seconds (though this would potentially be a too harsh)
- Nerf the aforementioned group sets to more balanced values. Or more extreme: restrict certain sets to only affect players in PvE
- Remove the ability of earthgore to purge ground ultimates. Or more specifically: negate. If anything negate should counter earthgore, not the other way around
- Change snow treaders to still allow sprinting and instead rework its downside to preventing the wearer from utilizing any form of speed buffs

I'm not asking for all of these ideas to be implemented. They are just suggestions of potential ways to adjust ball groups.

Tammany

These topics are chanceless - ballblob members gonna swarm them end explain that ballblobing (heal stacking) is a pinnacle of pvp so: join pvp guild blah-blah, get better blah-blah. Look at these first commenters, same faces over and over.

All developer has to do is to limit heal stacking so these guys wont chill there covered by insane overhealing.
Right atm joined cyrodill and every keep has a ballgroup of different color, cant fight any keep to fight NOT against ballgroup.
[snip]

These people are working together

Spamming few designated aoe spells = WORKING TOGETHER.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Crash427

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

...

And what server was this on?
Was the campaign pop-locked?
Was this prior to update 25?

Nobody is blaming...

It was in Blackreach on a Saturday night. I dont remember for sure if it was before or after U25, but since the game worked I'm thinking it may have been before. A few months later the same groups showed up to do it again and the game unplayable for some us. Same guilds, same place, same time, very different performance.

I agree fighting ballgroups is incredibly frustrating when you're not in one. If performance were better maybe that would help. I was goofing around with silver leash tonight in Cyro and while I could pull a person out of their group, I couldn't do much after that half the time because I couldn't always get skills to fire.

I believe that ultimately there's a problem that may not be fixable. The game favors defense, I assume to make it easier for new players to stay alive. Experienced players and theorycrafters figure out how to make the most of it and when you stack all that in one group it gets out of hand. I dont know how to fix this because it's not just the radiating regen stacks, it's everything combined.

Thoragaal

maboleth wrote: »

[...] but they are wasting resources doing nothing for the game goals, except their own. Most of these guys don't conquer or do anything and couldn't care less about winning the campaign or emp.

This sounds a lot like the zerg surfer.
Either way, ballgroups attracting attention pulls hostile players away from other objectives which in turn clears the way for their own alliance to push forward. I'm not saying people in those ballgroups have those motives in mind, but to say that they don't do anything for the "game goals" isn't true.

I'm sure ZOS didn't intend players to stack up into ballgroups. And personally I wish it wasn't a thing.
But the real question is "how do you stop it?"

ThePedge

Any changes they so to groups will negatively impact the PuGs already struggling to take them down.

They are doing nothing wrong. They are taking the mechanics available to them and using them in the most efficient way.

Complaining about them causing lag has always pissed me off, it may be true but that's not their fault, they lag too you know.

Minnesinger

I have always held high respect for the good ballgoups. Having played in many of them to bust zergs and coordinate risky battles. Today I saw a ball group of decent players and low cp and to my surprise the HoTs and all that stuff made them unkillable. In my previous experience the mixmaxing and the right roles were the key to success let alone the thought of some players put in the group setup. Now it feels the game is quite broken and they made ballgroups strong no matter how much experience or skill they have.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Minnesinger wrote: »

I have always held high respect for the good ballgoups. Having played in many of them to bust zergs and coordinate risky battles. Today I saw a ball group of decent players and low cp and to my surprise the HoTs and all that stuff made them unkillable. In my previous experience the mixmaxing and the right roles were the key to success let alone the thought of some players put in the group setup. Now it feels the game is quite broken and they made ballgroups strong no matter how much experience or skill they have.

Ironically it's actually easier than ever to kill or disrupt groups, it just requires some level of coordination and good timing/knowledge of how groups play.