ZOS please consider dissolving ball groups

Vizirith

Satiar wrote: »

Something that might be interesting would be separating healing stats from magica and damage.

A healer needing to spec specifically into a Healing Power stat would destroy the ability of groups to be basically made up of cross-healers. Cant have your DPS running 34k+ HP, damage stats AND separate healing stats.

That said, if they further nerf healing/purge they need to look at rebalancing a massive portion of the game. Siege is incredibly oppressive, even to good groups. No one actually likes to just spam purge or cleanse, but if you don't do that you will simply die.

I think they should add a modifier to most aoe abilities and siege to have a proxy-like effect. So efficient purge costs like 4k or something but then ramps up like 300 cost for every person that it effects. It would then be more plausible in smaller groups while less powerful in larger groups. Siege would do less damage than live to one person but more to larger groups.

But ofc it would be yet more server calculations which would just further the lag.

ShadowProc

Satiar wrote: »

Something that might be interesting would be separating healing stats from magica and damage.

A healer needing to spec specifically into a Healing Power stat would destroy the ability of groups to be basically made up of cross-healers. Cant have your DPS running 34k+ HP, damage stats AND separate healing stats.

That said, if they further nerf healing/purge they need to look at rebalancing a massive portion of the game. Siege is incredibly oppressive, even to good groups. No one actually likes to just spam purge or cleanse, but if you don't do that you will simply die.

On extended break from the game and still the same old same old.

It’s simple really. Make it so everyone has to build offense defense and utility. It’s absolutely absurd how OP PURGE is and cross healing. In small groups you have to build balanced. Make it same for large groups.

You want purge. Great. Slot it. No more freebies.

I watched Morgan’s Tyr stream for about a minute. Absolute comedy gold. I literally heard him repeating prox det and then PURGE spam purge spam purge spam purge spam....

Nothing has changed. The more people in group the easier this game gets.

badmojo

ShadowProc wrote: »

Nothing has changed. The more people in group the easier this game gets.

Which in itself is not unreasonable. Most games operate like that, group up and your inadequecies get lost in the crowd. The problem with ESO is that the developers are actively punishing players who do not fall into line and act accordingly. They put so much importance on finding and joining a pvp group, that having grouped warfare be enjoyable for the participants and their opponents takes a backseat. Problem with that approach is not everyone values the social aspect so much they are willing to sacrifice enjoyable gameplay. All I play is online games with other humans, why would I want that enforced at all costs.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

badmojo

Perhaps implement stacking of HoTs the same way they prevented stacking other buffs, with a major/minor system. 12 people casting mutagen would only give you 1 major heal over time buff.

For purge just apply a cooldown like with triggering synergies, so if you have a purge bot spamming it constantly you only have 1 purge removing effects every X amount of seconds.


I dont think its healthy for these discussions to act like tearing apart the game and destroying every class and healing is the only solution. The developers can literally change the game in every way imaginable, it just requires the players to demand it. Aswell, holding out for a perfect solution that also eliminates all lag is going to paralyze any change at all. Players should demand the results, and let the developers decide how much lag it will create. Otherwise we just go in circles forever.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it. I'm well aware of what makes the current group meta as strong as it is, and I'd like to see it changed because its stale. Update after update nothing really changes.
We can't consider the total impact of any change, and that is why we see unforeseen consequences of changes all the time.
What I'm saying is, its pointless to recommend dissolving groups. Organized will beat disorganized no matter what, but the way to change the boring meta is through heal stacking and group purge.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

Vizirith

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

I'd hope 12 v 40+ some skilled players would be a tough fight. But most skilled players often don't want to bother, what's the point. Chasing a ball group while you deal no damage for 20 mins with the hope that everybody happens to ult dump specific ults and cc's at the same time is hardly what most people find fun.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

As for you "watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online." You'd be correct ball groups lose when there are enough people to kill them... they can't exactly lose when there aren't enough people to kill them, otherwise they wouldn't lose. And yeah ball groups can be combated by other ball groups. And ofc the vice versa is also true, ball groups can be combated by other ball gro... oh wait it's literally the same thing. That's like saying a broken build isn't broken because it can be countered by, you know, the same broken build.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it. Solo or small group in open world, I ignore 12 person organized raids, and I do that because game mechanics make them defensively too strong.
If I stand in their offensive push, I will die, as it should be, but that isn't a problem. The problem is the defensive power gained as groups get larger using heal stacking and group purging.

I think that defensive strength needs to be addressed. If you disagree, that's fine. Nothing can be done to make disorganized more effective than organized, so I'm not advocating for that. The 2 mechanics I mentioned are the heart of an organized group's defensive advantage.

But, we're going to just keep repeating our points here. I'm not making a call to "kill ballgroups", I'm just saying the complaint about ball groups is really a complaint about the defensive strength granted by two mechanics and nothing changes unless those two mechanics change.

I'd like to see it happen, because just like OP proc sets or mechanics effecting solo/small group, these are mechanics that are out of balance and need to be fixed. Organized group play doesn't have to revolve around these mechanics, but using them is currently meta because they give the group an unbalanced amount of defensive strength.

The mid tier ball groups can have offensive power on par with the best groups, but the best groups are those that master these defensive mechanics, and the reason the best groups outshine other groups is because of the power these mechanics bring.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

You are kind of twisting my words here. Sure being a ball group vs another ball group will often yield good results but there is no reason why players have to have dedicated purge/rapids and heals if they are zerg surfing. Coordinating ultis isn't something unique to a ball group yet you seem to indicate that it is. Equally the timing of pushes is far easier on the surfing group vs the outnumbered group. The outnumbered group has to kill enough not to be overwhelmed, deal with counter siege etc.. The surfing group can simply bide their time and hit whenever they choose to. Yet so few players even consider playing in such a way. They rather stack in pug groups making themselves easy targets or just go to siege (which does have some impact).

I always feel like if ZOS empowered players to actually learn the game rather than 'raising the floor' and giving out participation stickers constantly the result would be a healthier community.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it.

I agree that the meta is a bit stale but its difficult to see how they change it aside from making certain playstyles completely redundant.

here's a video from 2015 - https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps tactics are almost identical.

The main differences are:

Now almost everyone in the group is responsible for healing in some part, still dedicated heals are needed but equally off-healing is more important - Imo a good change because it means that groups don't need to find as many dedicated healers and everyone needs to think a bit more about their skill choice.

Rapids - Doesn't need to be cast as often, so a dedicated rapids guy isn't always needed now - A good change for those who were upset that groups had dedicated support players, but imo a bad change for groups because it takes away from playstyles.

Purge - Same as before - The only interesting purge patch was 1.4 (iirc, could be 1.5) - the one where when you purged you could destroy your group to wall of elements bug. Although these days with all the proc sets and siege changes that would probs be really horrible to deal with.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

You are kind of twisting my words here. Sure being a ball group vs another ball group will often yield good results but there is no reason why players have to have dedicated purge/rapids and heals if they are zerg surfing. Coordinating ultis isn't something unique to a ball group yet you seem to indicate that it is. Equally the timing of pushes is far easier on the surfing group vs the outnumbered group. The outnumbered group has to kill enough not to be overwhelmed, deal with counter siege etc.. The surfing group can simply bide their time and hit whenever they choose to. Yet so few players even consider playing in such a way. They rather stack in pug groups making themselves easy targets or just go to siege (which does have some impact).

I always feel like if ZOS empowered players to actually learn the game rather than 'raising the floor' and giving out participation stickers constantly the result would be a healthier community.

It's a really, really high mark you have to pass before you're not just fodder for a decent group. Not a matter of just learning the game or putting on a few gear sets and skills. You need a dedicated group willing to learn and get farmed as they learn, a dedicated lead, people willing to take on unselfish and honestly boring roles. And after all that you're still going to get torn apart by veteran groups who have done it for years. There are very few groups I can think of that went from being pugs to strong, top-end competitors. Of the few I can think of, most of them had a lead/officer/small core of vet players from more established guilds to help them out.

It's second nature to some of us because we've done it for so long, and we can pull players from the smaller veteran community to fill gaps or insulate newer players with potential.

The only way ZOS can empower people to learn the game is to not make learning it so relentlessly punishing. That or nerf siege. There's a reason I see veteran and knowledgeable players from top end guilds lobbing coldfire at me when I'm farming.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

You are kind of twisting my words here. Sure being a ball group vs another ball group will often yield good results but there is no reason why players have to have dedicated purge/rapids and heals if they are zerg surfing. Coordinating ultis isn't something unique to a ball group yet you seem to indicate that it is. Equally the timing of pushes is far easier on the surfing group vs the outnumbered group. The outnumbered group has to kill enough not to be overwhelmed, deal with counter siege etc.. The surfing group can simply bide their time and hit whenever they choose to. Yet so few players even consider playing in such a way. They rather stack in pug groups making themselves easy targets or just go to siege (which does have some impact).

I always feel like if ZOS empowered players to actually learn the game rather than 'raising the floor' and giving out participation stickers constantly the result would be a healthier community.

The only way ZOS can empower people to learn the game is to not make learning it so relentlessly punishing. That or nerf siege. There's a reason I see veteran and knowledgeable players from top end guilds lobbing coldfire at me when I'm farming.

This is kind of my point though (I disagree that siege needs a nerf). Pugs (using the term to mean in-experienced and generally un grouped players) can use siege too but their siege is generally ineffective because they don't know what to look for in group patterns and gameplay, Likewise bombing or controlling a group when you are inexperienced is also difficult.

Players with an analytical brain and ability to improve will be able to, those stuck in zerg groups where their leader blames cheat addons and lag stuns never do because they surround themselves with players who don't understand or even care to understand the game.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it.

I agree that the meta is a bit stale but its difficult to see how they change it aside from making certain playstyles completely redundant.

here's a video from 2015 - https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps tactics are almost identical.

The main differences are:

Now almost everyone in the group is responsible for healing in some part, still dedicated heals are needed but equally off-healing is more important - Imo a good change because it means that groups don't need to find as many dedicated healers and everyone needs to think a bit more about their skill choice.

Rapids - Doesn't need to be cast as often, so a dedicated rapids guy isn't always needed now - A good change for those who were upset that groups had dedicated support players, but imo a bad change for groups because it takes away from playstyles.

Purge - Same as before - The only interesting purge patch was 1.4 (iirc, could be 1.5) - the one where when you purged you could destroy your group to wall of elements bug. Although these days with all the proc sets and siege changes that would probs be really horrible to deal with.

I've often thought what might be interesting is removing negate. The ability to simply remove any ground placed ultimates like Veil, Nova, and any abilities removes a lot of possibilities.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

You are kind of twisting my words here. Sure being a ball group vs another ball group will often yield good results but there is no reason why players have to have dedicated purge/rapids and heals if they are zerg surfing. Coordinating ultis isn't something unique to a ball group yet you seem to indicate that it is. Equally the timing of pushes is far easier on the surfing group vs the outnumbered group. The outnumbered group has to kill enough not to be overwhelmed, deal with counter siege etc.. The surfing group can simply bide their time and hit whenever they choose to. Yet so few players even consider playing in such a way. They rather stack in pug groups making themselves easy targets or just go to siege (which does have some impact).

I always feel like if ZOS empowered players to actually learn the game rather than 'raising the floor' and giving out participation stickers constantly the result would be a healthier community.

The only way ZOS can empower people to learn the game is to not make learning it so relentlessly punishing. That or nerf siege. There's a reason I see veteran and knowledgeable players from top end guilds lobbing coldfire at me when I'm farming.

This is kind of my point though. Pugs (using the term to mean in-experienced and generally un grouped players) can use siege too but their siege is generally ineffective because they don't know what to look for in group patterns and gameplay, Likewise bombing or controlling a group when you are inexperienced is also difficult.

Players with an analytical brain and ability to improve will be able to, those stuck in zerg groups where their leader blames cheat addons and lag stuns never do because they surround themselves with players who don't understand or even care to understand the game.

Sure, but that goes to the rest of my post .How many guilds on NA do you know that went from being pickup guilds or no guilds at all to real threats?

I've wracked my brain on it and I really can't think of many, and if there were any during my two ESO breaks I can't think of them. Queen's Brigade is almost the only one I can think of. Beyond them every guild i can think of that has competed at a mid-to-high level has had a strong veteran presence to guide them.

People are stuck in those zerg groups because that's all there is, and there no alternatives. No one wants to start a group and try to pugwrangle it to success and I don't blame them. Barrier to entry is too high.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it.

I agree that the meta is a bit stale but its difficult to see how they change it aside from making certain playstyles completely redundant.

here's a video from 2015 - https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps tactics are almost identical.

The main differences are:

Now almost everyone in the group is responsible for healing in some part, still dedicated heals are needed but equally off-healing is more important - Imo a good change because it means that groups don't need to find as many dedicated healers and everyone needs to think a bit more about their skill choice.

Rapids - Doesn't need to be cast as often, so a dedicated rapids guy isn't always needed now - A good change for those who were upset that groups had dedicated support players, but imo a bad change for groups because it takes away from playstyles.

Purge - Same as before - The only interesting purge patch was 1.4 (iirc, could be 1.5) - the one where when you purged you could destroy your group to wall of elements bug. Although these days with all the proc sets and siege changes that would probs be really horrible to deal with.

The only reason everyone is responsible for healing now is because healing springs no longer stacked. 2-3 dedicated healers used to be able to stack 8-12 instances of springs, so not everyone HAD to heal. That might seem like a change, but it isn't because the defensive mechanic that was overtuned was still "stacking heals". Now, we need more sources of regeneration to to get up to the level of 3 sources of 4 stacked springs. It's the same mechanic of stacking heals bringing too much defensive power.

Rapids got a duration that doesn't break on action, so yeah the support role is still vital but can do more than just keep rapids going for the group. I have no problem with that support role. It does lend the group strength through mobility. Even in solo play, line of sight is crucial to mitigating incoming damage and mobility helps with that.

Purge is pretty much unchanged and this is the other overpowered source of defensive strength effectively eliminating the threat of powerful siege damage while also adding to the strength of mobility.

All playstyles can get strength from mobility, but only large groups can get the benefit of deep healing stacks and group purging without severely hampering their damage potential and those two benefits are over tuned, IMO.

There is no solution to change the meta without changing the 2 mechanics that make the meta so strong. Any group with any composition can coordinate damage to great effect in an outnumbered fight, but only these 2 defensive mechanics make that group almost futile to fight from an ungrouped perspective.

There is a way to change it. Remove or cap heal stacks, remove group purging. Groups can still be strong and coordination will still often win against disorganized masses, but only to a point, and I think it's a much more reasonable point.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Sure, but that goes to the rest of my post .How many guilds on NA do you know that went from being pickup guilds or no guilds at all to real threats?

I've wracked my brain on it and I really can't think of many, and if there were any during my two ESO breaks I can't think of them. Queen's Brigade is almost the only one I can think of. Beyond them every guild i can think of that has competed at a mid-to-high level has had a strong veteran presence to guide them.

People are stuck in those zerg groups because that's all there is, and there no alternatives. No one wants to start a group and try to pugwrangle it to success and I don't blame them. Barrier to entry is too high.

I don't really want to go into counting guilds and naming them. I think the main point is that those who were motivated to try and improve normally did and those that weren't never did.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it.

I agree that the meta is a bit stale but its difficult to see how they change it aside from making certain playstyles completely redundant.

here's a video from 2015 - https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps tactics are almost identical.

The main differences are:

Now almost everyone in the group is responsible for healing in some part, still dedicated heals are needed but equally off-healing is more important - Imo a good change because it means that groups don't need to find as many dedicated healers and everyone needs to think a bit more about their skill choice.

Rapids - Doesn't need to be cast as often, so a dedicated rapids guy isn't always needed now - A good change for those who were upset that groups had dedicated support players, but imo a bad change for groups because it takes away from playstyles.

Purge - Same as before - The only interesting purge patch was 1.4 (iirc, could be 1.5) - the one where when you purged you could destroy your group to wall of elements bug. Although these days with all the proc sets and siege changes that would probs be really horrible to deal with.

There is a way to change it. Remove or cap heal stacks, remove group purging. Groups can still be strong and coordination will still often win against disorganized masses, but only to a point, and I think it's a much more reasonable point.

In your example, lets say you remove stacking, are you saying you would prefer if one healer casts warden ground aoe's one casts necro aoes, another casts templar aoes another casts springs. they are all unique aoe's and thus won't 'stack'

Essentially you are forcing players into potentially playing classes they dont want to play by doing that and thus limiting the notion of 'Play any class any style' that ZOS loves so much.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sure, but that goes to the rest of my post .How many guilds on NA do you know that went from being pickup guilds or no guilds at all to real threats?

I've wracked my brain on it and I really can't think of many, and if there were any during my two ESO breaks I can't think of them. Queen's Brigade is almost the only one I can think of. Beyond them every guild i can think of that has competed at a mid-to-high level has had a strong veteran presence to guide them.

People are stuck in those zerg groups because that's all there is, and there no alternatives. No one wants to start a group and try to pugwrangle it to success and I don't blame them. Barrier to entry is too high.

I don't really want to go into counting guilds and naming them. I think the main point is that those who were motivated to try and improve normally did and those that weren't never did.

What I'm getting at is that there really aren't any, or if there are they are staggeringly rare. At a certain point the rarity falls back on ZOS. If literally no one is doing it because it is too daunting a prospect, and those that are doing it are merely coasting off a long-time core and the gradual interchange of longtime players, that means there's a problem that can't simply boil down to pugs pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

Essentially, if it were a reasonably attainable endstate more people would be doing it. The fact that pretty much NO ONE does who wasn't already established shows a more systemic issue at play, imo.

Satiar

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it.

I agree that the meta is a bit stale but its difficult to see how they change it aside from making certain playstyles completely redundant.

here's a video from 2015 - https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps tactics are almost identical.

The main differences are:

Now almost everyone in the group is responsible for healing in some part, still dedicated heals are needed but equally off-healing is more important - Imo a good change because it means that groups don't need to find as many dedicated healers and everyone needs to think a bit more about their skill choice.

Rapids - Doesn't need to be cast as often, so a dedicated rapids guy isn't always needed now - A good change for those who were upset that groups had dedicated support players, but imo a bad change for groups because it takes away from playstyles.

Purge - Same as before - The only interesting purge patch was 1.4 (iirc, could be 1.5) - the one where when you purged you could destroy your group to wall of elements bug. Although these days with all the proc sets and siege changes that would probs be really horrible to deal with.

The only reason everyone is responsible for healing now is because healing springs no longer stacked. 2-3 dedicated healers used to be able to stack 8-12 instances of springs, so not everyone HAD to heal. That might seem like a change, but it isn't because the defensive mechanic that was overtuned was still "stacking heals". Now, we need more sources of regeneration to to get up to the level of 3 sources of 4 stacked springs. It's the same mechanic of stacking heals bringing too much defensive power.

Rapids got a duration that doesn't break on action, so yeah the support role is still vital but can do more than just keep rapids going for the group. I have no problem with that support role. It does lend the group strength through mobility. Even in solo play, line of sight is crucial to mitigating incoming damage and mobility helps with that.

Purge is pretty much unchanged and this is the other overpowered source of defensive strength effectively eliminating the threat of powerful siege damage while also adding to the strength of mobility.

All playstyles can get strength from mobility, but only large groups can get the benefit of deep healing stacks and group purging without severely hampering their damage potential and those two benefits are over tuned, IMO.

There is no solution to change the meta without changing the 2 mechanics that make the meta so strong. Any group with any composition can coordinate damage to great effect in an outnumbered fight, but only these 2 defensive mechanics make that group almost futile to fight from an ungrouped perspective.

There is a way to change it. Remove or cap heal stacks, remove group purging. Groups can still be strong and coordination will still often win against disorganized masses, but only to a point, and I think it's a much more reasonable point.

If everything in the game didnt snare/root and siege wasn't a thing, I'd say that would be reasonable. As is, purge isn't just a win condition or a defensive countermeasure. It's how you operate in Cyrodiil without mashing your face into your monitor in a fit of rage in anything larger than a 2v2.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sure, but that goes to the rest of my post .How many guilds on NA do you know that went from being pickup guilds or no guilds at all to real threats?

I've wracked my brain on it and I really can't think of many, and if there were any during my two ESO breaks I can't think of them. Queen's Brigade is almost the only one I can think of. Beyond them every guild i can think of that has competed at a mid-to-high level has had a strong veteran presence to guide them.

People are stuck in those zerg groups because that's all there is, and there no alternatives. No one wants to start a group and try to pugwrangle it to success and I don't blame them. Barrier to entry is too high.

I don't really want to go into counting guilds and naming them. I think the main point is that those who were motivated to try and improve normally did and those that weren't never did.

What I'm getting at is that there really aren't any, or if there are they are staggeringly rare. At a certain point the rarity falls back on ZOS. If literally no one is doing it because it is too daunting a prospect, and those that are doing it are merely coasting off a long-time core and the gradual interchange of longtime players, that means there's a problem that can't simply boil down to pugs pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

Essentially, if it were a reasonably attainable endstate more people would be doing it. The fact that pretty much NO ONE does who wasn't already established shows a more systemic issue at play, imo.

I think this is just a perspective difference, essentially we are stating similar points, I kinda feel like your point is more that groups should be nerfed so its easier for groups to 'step up' and kill them where as my point is i'd rather ZOS tried to get guilds/groups to 'Step up' and kill them in their current state rather than constantly trying to artificially raise the floor by lowering the ceiling.
Either way it still needs players to actually make some effort and the trouble is that a lot of players are stuck in a cycle of zone pug groups / 'I only play solo and use a bow with light armour because that's how i want to play' type scenarios where achieving something better than they have isn't a priority.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stacking heals and group purging. That's all that needs to be addressed to change organized groups for the better.

How do you think heals and purge should work in an mmo? What you suggest essentially means there shouldnt be any type of support or healing role.

Less about what I think should be, and more about what it will take to change a very stale, very dull, group meta.

Well I feel that if you have no idea what should be changed then suggesting that simple nerfs aren't the key to making 'organised groups for the better'. For example there have been a lot of changes since launch which have affected group healing and yet we are now at this stage. Do you feel like one of these past stages was better or have they all been bad?

Additionally lets say you remove all cross healing and cross purge. How do pugs and groups deal with counter siege at that point? Just stack up and hope that you can push through and overwhelm numbers? - This leads to more lag and faction stacking. Groups for example would likely just go for classes that can easily self purge. For example lets say I run 12m of templars. (obviously would be some other roles there but just as an example) 12x purify on the ground will give quite a lot of cross healing even though the 'mutagen' won't be stacking. Damage would be lower but equally now pugs can't purge effectively.

Its very dangerous to just suggest a change and not consider its impact as we have seen with countless ESO changes.

It's only dangerous to those seeking to preserve it.

Tell this to people asking for ball group nerfs when they got their group size reduced to 12 and healing to group only

People are generally asking for the wrong solutions. Thinking they can end people playing well together, and that's the wrong way. The offensive power of organized groups can't be touched. The defensive power can easily be changed though, and in my opinion should be changed.
I'm perfectly comfortable doing what works and thinking what works should be changed. I wore Crimson, I wear Malacath and procs...I don't think those things should be preserved.

the issue with constantly calling for group nerfs (I also think the current meta has run its course and it would be nice to have changes) is that people don't consider what happens afterwards.

Lets say for example that ball groups suddenly don't exist. You can run a group and beat equal numbers of pugs but fighting outnumbered with a small group isn't really possible. What happens then? Do you think it leads to groups magically finding equal numbered fights all over the map? or does it just lead to those groups sitting at their factions frontlines surrounded by 30-40 other players (who may or may not be in their own groups) pushing the next keep in the row?

The only thing which has changed as groups have been systematically nerfed since launch is that less and less groups venture out to their own fights and spread out combat around the map, conversely group size (in terms of 'running together' not people inside the group) has increased drastically. We've had the bridge/gate corridor fights for over 4 years now. Compared to launch this is a really sad sight to see.

The amount of groups we see daily in cyro who will now literally just run away if any enemies show up to their backline siege is crazy, and those are the guys who at least aren't really contributing to the frontline fight lag currently. If they instead just frontline I think the lag will get way worse personally.


Note: For my guild honestly I don't think there's any change that ZOS could make which would prevent us being able to fight outnumbered but do you really want there to only be 1 or 2 guilds left in the game who can do so and the rest stay on frontlines? (we're almost there right now lol)

People are sick of it. What I see more and more is beating groups with boredom...in short, just ignore them. They are defensively too strong. I would never advise any player to stay behind the front lines to fight a ball group because they simply won't win.
Even against a mediocre group, ungrouped players won't win easily because they are outmatched defensively.
The defensive power of organized groups has to be brought back down to earth with solo and small group play.
It's nice to think about groups spreading combat, but when they get bored because no one wants to fight them they will/do come to the frontline fights.
I have no problem with organized group play. I think offensively they are powerful through cooperation and timing and that is deserved.
Defensively, large groups are miles ahead of all other playstyles because of stacked healing and group purging.
Not everyone wants to play that way, and playing that way is far too advantageous because of these mechanics.
There can't be a change in the meta until that is addressed.

I don't know how much you have experienced playing in group this patch (I know you watch a lot of streams/vids etc) but I can tell you that as a group if we fight 30-40 pugs + some organised 6-8m who actually knows what they are doing these fights are extremely difficult to win. The problem is that players don't understand how to combat groups at all and most pug groups actually do more harm to themselves then good. Honestly 90% of the time it would be better for players to all be solo rather than in some of these 'herding groups' (not mentioning any names but you know the ones if you play).

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Honestly when i've been watching most other groups I don't think they really have many successful fights these days unless there aren't enough player to challenge them anyway, or there are no coordinated small groups / other 'ball groups' online. (Kiting fights can be considered successful depending on the gains but im talking more so about securing ticks and performance in combat).
Note: This is when observing them as an enemy. All it takes for most groups to die these days are 2-3 coordinated players inside a zerg.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. All I'm saying is the group meta is stale, and boring and almost futile to fight against.
I'm bored of playing it, and bored of seeing it.

I agree that the meta is a bit stale but its difficult to see how they change it aside from making certain playstyles completely redundant.

here's a video from 2015 - https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps tactics are almost identical.

The main differences are:

Now almost everyone in the group is responsible for healing in some part, still dedicated heals are needed but equally off-healing is more important - Imo a good change because it means that groups don't need to find as many dedicated healers and everyone needs to think a bit more about their skill choice.

Rapids - Doesn't need to be cast as often, so a dedicated rapids guy isn't always needed now - A good change for those who were upset that groups had dedicated support players, but imo a bad change for groups because it takes away from playstyles.

Purge - Same as before - The only interesting purge patch was 1.4 (iirc, could be 1.5) - the one where when you purged you could destroy your group to wall of elements bug. Although these days with all the proc sets and siege changes that would probs be really horrible to deal with.

There is a way to change it. Remove or cap heal stacks, remove group purging. Groups can still be strong and coordination will still often win against disorganized masses, but only to a point, and I think it's a much more reasonable point.

In your example, lets say you remove stacking, are you saying you would prefer if one healer casts warden ground aoe's one casts necro aoes, another casts templar aoes another casts springs. they are all unique aoe's and thus won't 'stack'

Essentially you are forcing players into potentially playing classes they dont want to play by doing that and thus limiting the notion of 'Play any class any style' that ZOS loves so much.

Essentially yes. Different heals stack because they aren't the same, just like Major/Minor buffs.
I don't think that forces anyone to do anything.
I'm sure there is some ideal group composition in such a system, but I'm also sure it isn't nearly as defensively unbalanced as the current system. And that's what I'd like addressed. I'm certainly going to play, or at least try, whatever the most unbalanced thing is, but I'm not going to constantly excuse it as being everyone else's problem for not doing the same, or pretend that it's not unbalanced.
The "problem " with ballgroups is a problem with the defensive power gained by group purge and stacked healing.
That's as plain as I can put it. Do you agree?
That's all I'm pointing out. Some groups outshine others for other reasons (better calling, positioning, etc), but no group can survive against overwhelming odds without those 2 things.

manny254

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

Yet so few players even consider playing in such a way. They rather stack in pug groups making themselves easy targets or just go to siege (which does have some impact).

I think the reason you don't see more coordinated small groups doing this, is that that isn't gameplay oriented to small groups.

I can only speak for myself, but I see no reward for trying to zerg down an organized 12 man group. There is no real victory to take, winning by numbers is generally something small groups are actively trying to avoid. The only thing a small group gains from going into a situation like that is the chance at lag and a chance to get bombed.

I do understand that that isn't the norm, and I am sure a group like yours gets tons of whispers from "Solo" players that are within the horde of 40+ players.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

The "problem " with ballgroups is a problem with the defensive power gained by group purge and stacked healing.
That's as plain as I can put it. Do you agree?

As a short answer - I don't consider it a problem. (This will be taken slightly out of context due to its simplicity, I'm happy to discuss the meta changes and I am quite bored of the current meta in itself but in general I don't consider a groups healing and support factor an issue).

I consider the problem to be that
1) Players don't know how to deal with groups
2) Players should be encouraged to learn and there should potentially be more tools to help this (like fixing the lag on cast time skills, siege and cc break etc).
3) Recovery mechanics should be lessened (e.g. res and camps should function differently).

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

manny254 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

When players come to the forum and simply call for group nerfs you aren't empowering players to learn how to deal with such groups for the future. Such as 'Ulti coordination', CC control and timing of pushes, Better group overview of buffs/ leading intention - you know the stuff that we have as groups from good leadership calls (and addons in some cases).

Agreed, having people group up to have heals, especially with a dedicated healer, coordinated cc/roots and ult dumps. Maybe coordinating buffs and sets. Ideally you want to stay close together so treaders would be helpful. A purgebot would go far to mitigate incoming dmg, a rapids bot too for speed. Wait why does this sound so familiar?

Yet so few players even consider playing in such a way. They rather stack in pug groups making themselves easy targets or just go to siege (which does have some impact).

I think the reason you don't see more coordinated small groups doing this, is that that isn't gameplay oriented to small groups.

I can only speak for myself, but I see no reward for trying to zerg down an organized 12 man group. There is no real victory to take, winning by numbers is generally something small groups are actively trying to avoid. The only thing a small group gains from going into a situation like that is the chance at lag and a chance to get bombed.

I do understand that that isn't the norm, and I am sure a group like yours gets tons of whispers from "Solo" players that are within the horde of 40+ players.

I agree with you but im speaking more about the players who are invested in taking down groups inside their own factions (like the zerg groups / faction pugs etc). It can also be fun to hunt groups sometimes though especially if you are just casually surfing already.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The "problem " with ballgroups is a problem with the defensive power gained by group purge and stacked healing.
That's as plain as I can put it. Do you agree?

As a short answer - I don't consider it a problem. (This will be taken slightly out of context due to its simplicity, I'm happy to discuss the meta changes and I am quite bored of the current meta in itself but in general I don't consider a groups healing and support factor an issue).

I consider the problem to be that
1) Players don't know how to deal with groups
2) Players should be encouraged to learn and there should potentially be more tools to help this (like fixing the lag on cast time skills, siege and cc break etc).
3) Recovery mechanics should be lessened (e.g. res and camps should function differently).

That's pretty much the git-good answer. It's what some say while wearing the latest unbalanced meta sets. What you'd encourage people to learn is what makes groups "unkillable", as they would put it, and what they'll learn is that group purge and stacking heals are what does that.
Even the best groups get beat, or die eventually to lag/disconnects/very good bombers, but the delta between meta and off-meta is too vast and IMO that is due completely to unbalanced defensive power of two mechanics.

So I guess we'll just have to disagree on whether that's a problem.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The "problem " with ballgroups is a problem with the defensive power gained by group purge and stacked healing.
That's as plain as I can put it. Do you agree?

As a short answer - I don't consider it a problem. (This will be taken slightly out of context due to its simplicity, I'm happy to discuss the meta changes and I am quite bored of the current meta in itself but in general I don't consider a groups healing and support factor an issue).

I consider the problem to be that
1) Players don't know how to deal with groups
2) Players should be encouraged to learn and there should potentially be more tools to help this (like fixing the lag on cast time skills, siege and cc break etc).
3) Recovery mechanics should be lessened (e.g. res and camps should function differently).

That's pretty much the git-good answer. It's what some say while wearing the latest unbalanced meta sets. What you'd encourage people to learn is what makes groups "unkillable", as they would put it, and what they'll learn is that group purge and stacking heals are what does that.
Even the best groups get beat, or die eventually to lag/disconnects/very good bombers, but the delta between meta and off-meta is too vast and IMO that is due completely to unbalanced defensive power of two mechanics.

So I guess we'll just have to disagree on whether that's a problem.

Lets take Crimson as an example.
Its a very strong set because players don't deal with it well. if you avoid the proc or make your burst window occur after it has proc'd its not really that strong. (theres raids that run all crimson on NA and they die really fast).

Yet everyone is annoyed because its also annoying to deal with and takes a brain (its easier to use than it is to fight lets say) - is it strong - yes, its probs overtuned especially in combination with other stuff (But I think HP heals and proc dmg are worse), should it be removed completely - no, players should 'learn to play' as you put it.

This is partly why I don't agree with most players on simple 'nerf group' threads. Playing in a group and being really successful at it takes a lot of work and experience its not as simple as throwing on a set and letting it proc on pugs that stack on you. It feels like those asking for group nerfs are just those unwilling to put in a similar amount of effort to fight.