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Let’s talk.......About Vet Frostvault

  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Most DLC dungeons aren't well designed for pug groups IMO. They are pretty much designed and tested by people in comms (something pugs usually are not) and by experienced players (something most pugs are not) and by people that learn mechanics well and want to be tested (something most pugs don't).

    I think it's just the way it is at this point. For content to be somewhat of a challenge for most vet players it's going to be a roadblock to random pugs that haven't learned mechs or the game well and aren't in comms. Myself and many of the people I play with do not pug DLC dungeons except maybe on normal just to get it done.
    -- @xaraan --
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    AD • NA • PC
  • Prof_Bawbag
    Prof_Bawbag
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    I found the other dungeon in the pack to be a lot worse. On the plus side, in there at least you find out quickly because the first boss is where all the issues begin and end more often than not. You get that out of the way and it's easy until the last boss execution phase. I struggle with that part too tbf so not gonna sit on here and claim I have it nailed. 'Tis one large cluster****.

    Edited by Prof_Bawbag on October 28, 2020 6:22PM
  • Jeremy
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    Ok - for real. Now I know that someone who is extra l33t will probably post here and be like “I solo’d it”

    But for real now - has anyone, and I mean anyone actually beat Vet Frostvault in a PUG?

    This place is waaay too overturned to even be listed in the Dungeon finder.

    Normal is ok, vet Frostvault in a pug is beyond gross.

    Not my favorite dungeon either with annoying gimmicks that kill you galore and probably the epitome of what I would consider bad game design. That stupid laser mini game as an example.
    Edited by Jeremy on October 28, 2020 6:24PM
  • Aznarb
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    Ok - for real. Now I know that someone who is extra l33t will probably post here and be like “I solo’d it”

    But for real now - has anyone, and I mean anyone actually beat Vet Frostvault in a PUG?

    This place is waaay too overturned to even be listed in the Dungeon finder.

    Normal is ok, vet Frostvault in a pug is beyond gross.

    My 1st HM was with pug, I've do it many time with pug, I like this Dg :)
    Yes, if people are bad they won't do it unless their is a Tankcro to carry them with rez ult.
    So, what the problem ?
    I've done it with people who was here for the 1st time, they asked for strat (pretty rare pug ask sadly), I teach them and we done it pretty smooth.

    So, it is possiblle with pug ? Ofc.
    It's is possible with bad player ? Depend if you can carry but probably not most of the time.

    So, all fine.
    linuxlady wrote: »
    Try doing frostvault in first person view. Then come talk to me about what difficult is....

    I've done this with friend ! In most DLC when we are bored, most of the time it's a hellfest but damn fun xD
    If you do it again, add 1 shot of teq each time you die :p
    Edited by Aznarb on October 28, 2020 6:40PM
    [ PC EU ]

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  • zvavi
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    Ok - for real. Now I know that someone who is extra l33t will probably post here and be like “I solo’d it”

    But for real now - has anyone, and I mean anyone actually beat Vet Frostvault in a PUG?

    This place is waaay too overturned to even be listed in the Dungeon finder.

    Normal is ok, vet Frostvault in a pug is beyond gross.

    I will take the bait. While the dungeon is definitely dueable, specifically 3rd boss is solo able on dd, and 4th on tank (will take pretty long though for the 4th one)
  • josiahva
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    Interesting fact about vault protector arena:

    If you stand directly in front of the pipe the spheres come out of up against the wall, you can jump higher than any other time in the game. I am not sure why...and I haven't found it to be useful yet, but it is interesting....unfortunately you can't use it to jump the laser that I have found because it doesn't work except straight and down and the laser doesn't go beneath you fast enough.
  • ForzaRammer
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    It’s not that bad, as long as you kick people who are clearly incapable
  • Itzmichi
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    Sure did, not HM of course but that obviously depends on the group you pug with. Can be pain or can be a piece of cake.
    Here, have a chill pill 💊!
  • RavenLake
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    PUG for vet Frostvault and vet Moongrave have always been nuclear dumpster fires for me. Its either Vault Protector or Kujo that wipes everyone over and over and over...
  • MirandaSharp
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    I think if you get people who want to finish this particular dungeon you can do it with a pug. If you get people doing their daily random or even a pledge.... Probably not....
  • mayasunrising
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    code65536 wrote: »
    ...in general, I feel like a lot of people who queue for vet DLC dungeons just are not ready for them. I always tell people: You need to complete vMA. Not for the weapons, no. But because vMA is the gateway to vet DLC content. It's a rite of passage. It establishes a baseline for damage output and awareness, and, frankly, if someone can't beat vMA, they have no business stepping foot in vet DLC dungeons or trials. And I suspect that people who can comfortably beat vMA would find no issue with Frostvault, Maarselok, or any of the other DLC vets.

    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.
    Edited by mayasunrising on October 29, 2020 6:36PM
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  • halucin0g3n
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    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.

    If you haven't completed vMA then you're a liability in vet HM DLC dungeons. No matter how good you think you are, vMa would take out the best out of you. After you complete vMA you'll truly understand the mechanics of this game.

    It's not about being an elitist, it's just how it is.
  • halucin0g3n
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    Duplicated the post by mistake
    Edited by halucin0g3n on October 30, 2020 4:02AM
  • zvavi
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    code65536 wrote: »
    ...in general, I feel like a lot of people who queue for vet DLC dungeons just are not ready for them. I always tell people: You need to complete vMA. Not for the weapons, no. But because vMA is the gateway to vet DLC content. It's a rite of passage. It establishes a baseline for damage output and awareness, and, frankly, if someone can't beat vMA, they have no business stepping foot in vet DLC dungeons or trials. And I suspect that people who can comfortably beat vMA would find no issue with Frostvault, Maarselok, or any of the other DLC vets.

    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.

    You are misinterpreting him. He said specifically "if you can't beat vMA". People that can't beat vMA are those that straggle with awareness survivability & mechanics while dealing damage. If a person can do that in dlc dungeon, vMA should be as easy as learn the mechanics, he "can" beat vMA. While the average player goes in to vMA to wipe wipe wipe and then by combination of chance pass through the annoying stages, that player "can't" beat vMA.

    The experience to deal damage with awareness survivability & mechanics can be learnt outside of vMA, but inside vMA you are the only affected by that lack of experience.
  • Everest_Lionheart
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    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.

    If you haven't completed vMA then you're a liability in vet HM DLC dungeons. No matter how good you think you are, vMa would take out the best out of you. After you complete vMA you'll truly understand the mechanics of this game.

    It's not about being an elitist, it's just how it is.

    I’ve only ever attempted on Stamden and haven’t passed the frozen arena. I make it all the way to the last island and run out of stam right at the last add phase. Of course it’s my trial DPS toon than I’m trying to run though there and with build tweaks I would be fine.

    Still that same toon I’ve had zero issues taking though vBRF, Falkreath, vMoS, Fang Lair and vFV. Not getting trifectas mind you but knocking out the completions because my groups communicate well with one another. Not sure I would want to pug these though.

    By the same token my hardest hitting trial toon can’t go anywhere near vDLC or vMA and I don’t bother to take her in there because the setup is definitely all wrong. MagDK do have the tools if I went a little tanky though.

    My Magplar and stamblades would probably be better suited to vMA. It’s my magplar I for through vDSA and all of the vet DLC first, but it’s a very forgiving class compared to Stamden. And never tried sorc and probably won’t. I’ve heard it’s easy and I definitely prefer somw kind of challenge.

    Still I hold my own in vet DLC often picking my mates off the floor to keep the fight going a little longer. But I’m also the dummy that can die to a regular trash pull because I play sloppy between the hard stuff!
  • Nord_Raseri
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    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.

    If you haven't completed vMA then you're a liability in vet HM DLC dungeons. No matter how good you think you are, vMa would take out the best out of you. After you complete vMA you'll truly understand the mechanics of this game.

    It's not about being an elitist, it's just how it is.

    We got a new player in our guild(Just hit CP last week) and another friend who came back after a very long absence. Neither of them have done vma. The new guy is a templar tank. We did vet Hm fang lair last night( We had to port in because new guy isn't high enough level to queue). Only two wipes. They did great. They were not a liability at all.
    Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.
  • josiahva
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    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.

    If you haven't completed vMA then you're a liability in vet HM DLC dungeons. No matter how good you think you are, vMa would take out the best out of you. After you complete vMA you'll truly understand the mechanics of this game.

    It's not about being an elitist, it's just how it is.

    lol, thats ridiculous. I for one haven't yet completed VMA because I mainly tank, I don't truly enjoy DPS...and vMA is all about...DPS, nothing there is critical for me to actually play through it as a role I don't enjoy. As a tank I have completed many many vDLC hardmodes and good amount of the trifectas(those that have them).

    I am currently working through vMA...as a tank...but of course it is immeasurably more difficult when your DPS is limited. I have made it all the way to Spiral Shadows arena tanking it....but spiral shadows, while extremely easy as a DPS is far harder as a tank(which is fair, there are several arenas easier as a tank than a DPS). I can generally get her down to 5 or 10% before she gets me...that enrage is real, and getting enough hoarvers to die exactly where and when you need them with low DPS(or synergies) is challenging....I am sure I will get it eventually, but I play there very casually. I could always swap to a DPS character and burn through easily enough I guess...but to me its more interesting doing it as a tank, since it was never meant for such a build.

    The point is, your statement is pretty broad and makes a lot of assumptions that are not applicable to many who play the game..ESPECIALLY tanks and healers.

  • Jeremy
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    josiahva wrote: »
    I agree with everything Nerdrage said with the exception of this final paragraph. I have been playing the game for over 4 years, and have never beaten - nor do I care to beat - vMA. There is just simply nothing there that I want so it simply isn't worth the aggravation. However, I am able to complete all the vet content I've wanted to without issue - including Frost Vault - and generally am one of the more survivable member in my groups. I'm sorry, but saying someone has no place in vet content if you don't complete vMA sounds mostly just elitest to me, which is becoming a HUGE problem when players first try to connect with vet content.

    In my experience, making it through any vet content is primarily about learning to deal with the mechanics of each dungeon, and the path to that is practice. Then it comes down to patience - which again, in my experience, is the primary skill many PuGs lack. If you want to just blow through content with a highly skilled group of players who burn through everything, join a vet/trials guild, don't PuG. If you do PuG it, expect players of all experience levels and builds. That is the nature of PuG groups.

    If you haven't completed vMA then you're a liability in vet HM DLC dungeons. No matter how good you think you are, vMa would take out the best out of you. After you complete vMA you'll truly understand the mechanics of this game.

    It's not about being an elitist, it's just how it is.

    lol, thats ridiculous. I for one haven't yet completed VMA because I mainly tank, I don't truly enjoy DPS...and vMA is all about...DPS, nothing there is critical for me to actually play through it as a role I don't enjoy. As a tank I have completed many many vDLC hardmodes and good amount of the trifectas(those that have them).

    I am currently working through vMA...as a tank...but of course it is immeasurably more difficult when your DPS is limited. I have made it all the way to Spiral Shadows arena tanking it....but spiral shadows, while extremely easy as a DPS is far harder as a tank(which is fair, there are several arenas easier as a tank than a DPS). I can generally get her down to 5 or 10% before she gets me...that enrage is real, and getting enough hoarvers to die exactly where and when you need them with low DPS(or synergies) is challenging....I am sure I will get it eventually, but I play there very casually. I could always swap to a DPS character and burn through easily enough I guess...but to me its more interesting doing it as a tank, since it was never meant for such a build.

    The point is, your statement is pretty broad and makes a lot of assumptions that are not applicable to many who play the game..ESPECIALLY tanks and healers.

    That's why I don't like it either. It shuns defensive play styles. It also caters to specific builds generally I find. For example: I was actually stuck on Maxus The Many for the longest time. Then one day I decided to equip the Templar pokey move and beat him and the next 4 or 5 arenas without much difficulty.

    So I literally went from being unable to beat the first boss for weeks on end to getting to the Ice Stage I think it was after only a few tries. Equipping that one ability made that much of a difference I kid you not...

    That's when I learned that place has a lot more to do with what kind of build you use then anything else.
    Edited by Jeremy on October 31, 2020 10:36AM
  • ayu_fever
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    if clearing vma was required to unlock veteran content i would never be able to do veteran content, just like 90% of the playerbase.
    such an idea is ridiculous since we all paid for access to all parts of the game. locking people out of what they paid for is a selfish way to keep lower skilled players out, as opposed to teaching them so they can improve.

    if a group is bad, how about coaching instead of complaining and rage quitting?
    thats why the endgame community is bleeding players.
    build shaming, toxic attitudes, no patience for mistakes...

    if someone is missing some gear, help them get it.
    if someones dps is low, help them get better.

    if those high end players would take the time to help others instead of being rude, the community as a whole would be in a much better place.
    PS4 NA

    all characters are members of the ebonheart pact master race
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    main character:
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    other meta toons-
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    Freyja Straight-Fire, nord warden tank: THE ICEBERG (dungeons, trials)
    Ororo Straight-Fire, dark elf magsorc: THE SHOCKWAVE (dungeons, trials)
    Michonne Straight-Fire, redguard stamDK: THE EVISCERATOR (dungeons, trials)

    just for fun toons-
    Rhea Straight-Fire, wood elf warden stam healer: THE RANGER
    Shiva Straight-Fire, high elf warden ice mage: THE CRYOMANCER
    Morgana Straight-Fire, dark elf necromancer solo play: THE DEATHSINGER
    Lucille Straight-Fire, dark elf nightblade solo play: THE VOIDWALKER
    Diana Straight-Fire, nord templar tank: THE CLERIC
    Falsetto Straight-Fire, orc stamsorc werewolf: THE THUNDERHOWL
  • Nerdrage9000
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    Guys guys guys. I am just a simple man, with a simple posting about how much V Frostvault sucks (in a PUG) How did this turn into a VMA thread?
  • Calm_Fury
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    Guys guys guys. I am just a simple man, with a simple posting about how much V Frostvault sucks (in a PUG) How did this turn into a VMA thread?

    Haha, true. This got completely derailed.

    It is just one or a couple's person's opinion. vFV is still a PUG killer.

    I've tanked failed groups there where everyone was Stormproof (and I was Flawless on my tank).

    vMA helps a lot and I do think people should try it if they want to get better at the game, but it shouldn't be a gate and a lot of times it does not really tell much. There are lots of Stormproofs there that just used PetSorc Heavy Attacks and WW builds and powered through without learning anything.

    I tried vFV again last night. It again was a failed group. I wouldn't mind a few nerfs to the Vault Protector. At least some fewer laser phases for groups with lower DPS.

    ZOS doesn't need to completely gut it like they did the Plannar Inhibitor in WGT, just tune it a little bit.
  • zvavi
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    Calm_Fury wrote: »

    I tried vFV again last night. It again was a failed group. I wouldn't mind a few nerfs to the Vault Protector. At least some fewer laser phases for groups with lower DPS.

    .

    The only issue with vault protector is that it is a bugged Trainwreck, if lasers would stop going through the shield, boss heavy attacks stop hitting where not telegraphed (this one might be fixed, but not 100% sure), it would do wonders for completion rates. Zos is stressing out about raising the floor so more people could pass the content, but the real gate/offender in keeping people away from the content is the bugs.
    Edited by zvavi on October 31, 2020 6:23PM
  • code65536
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    zvavi wrote: »
    Calm_Fury wrote: »

    I tried vFV again last night. It again was a failed group. I wouldn't mind a few nerfs to the Vault Protector. At least some fewer laser phases for groups with lower DPS.

    .

    The only issue with vault protector is that it is a bugged Trainwreck, if lasers would stop going through the shield, boss heavy attacks stop hitting where not telegraphed (this one might be fixed, but not 100% sure), it would do wonders for completion rates. Zos is stressing out about raising the floor so more people could pass the content, but the real gate/offender in keeping people away from the content is the bugs.

    The laser bug is pretty rare in my experience. I've completed Vault Protector more times than I can count, and, yes, I've run into that laser bug. Even made a video of it and sent it to ZOS. But that laser bug happens only once every... hmm... 20 runs or so? It's pretty uncommon.

    As I wrote earlier, relaxing the timer trigger for the mechanics would make the fight much more recoverable and is really the only adjustment that is needed while having zero effect for endgame groups that get mechanics on the health triggers rather than the timer triggers.

    (As for the vMA thing: I still stand by my original statement, though perhaps I should clarify what I thought was implicit: damage dealers who are incapable of completing the 5-year-old vMA will not have a good time in vet DLC content in general, particularly the newer ones. I thought that it was clear that I was not referring to tanks when I write things like "baseline for damage output", but perhaps I should have been more explicit in that. Like it or not, it is a rite of passage for entry into the endgame for damage dealers.)
    Edited by code65536 on October 31, 2020 9:48PM
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  • Kurat
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    DDs who say they haven't been able to complete vMA but have no trouble clearing vet dlc dungeons, either get carried or are heavily dependent on support roles. Either way, they are not very good players. Group content achievements are worthless these days because your contribution is impossible to determine. Only vMA flawless and the new solo arena vVH trifecta achievement show that you know how to play.
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    code65536 wrote: »
    zvavi wrote: »
    Calm_Fury wrote: »

    I tried vFV again last night. It again was a failed group. I wouldn't mind a few nerfs to the Vault Protector. At least some fewer laser phases for groups with lower DPS.

    .

    The only issue with vault protector is that it is a bugged Trainwreck, if lasers would stop going through the shield, boss heavy attacks stop hitting where not telegraphed (this one might be fixed, but not 100% sure), it would do wonders for completion rates. Zos is stressing out about raising the floor so more people could pass the content, but the real gate/offender in keeping people away from the content is the bugs.

    The laser bug is pretty rare in my experience. I've completed Vault Protector more times than I can count, and, yes, I've run into that laser bug. Even made a video of it and sent it to ZOS. But that laser bug happens only once every... hmm... 20 runs or so? It's pretty uncommon.

    Definitely, but instances tend to get worse over time, and weaker groups will spend more wipes against vault protector as it is, from my experience tank pugging, with weak dds, I get it 50% of the time minimum, if not higher. When you kill it in one go, sure, you won't meet it much, but when your group can't kill the spheres well enough while surviving? You will meet it. That's why my opinion is that
    Zos is stressing out about raising the floor so more people could pass the content, but the real gate/offender in keeping people away from the content is the bugs.
    Edited by zvavi on October 31, 2020 10:22PM
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
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    Only ever pugged frostvault (don't play that often anymore so can't be bothered to get groups together) and it didn't strike me as that hard. Explaining mechanics to people who don't know it was all that was really needed.
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    Data tells fact.

    Ive done this hm with fixed group few times.

    But vet non hm pug rate is only about 10 to 20 percents.

    THB, VET FV pug is just like torture yourself.

  • Grianasteri
    Grianasteri
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    If you haven't completed vMA then you're a liability in vet HM DLC dungeons. No matter how good you think you are, vMa would take out the best out of you. After you complete vMA you'll truly understand the mechanics of this game.

    It's not about being an elitist, it's just how it is.

    ^ This is untrue.

    Its perfectly possible to learn and get to grips with vet and vet HM dungeons, including DLC, without ever completing vMA. I had done pretty much every DLC dungeon on vet, and plenty on vet HM, before I completed vMA.



  • GreasyDave
    GreasyDave
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    Whenever I pug this after I've seen group dps at the first BOss I always make it clear at the start I won't do HM. I explain why. If they don't like it I drop out. Inevitably there's a noob who tells me they've done HM many times and it's easy and I don't know what I'm talking about...I look at his CP's, at the group dps, shake my head and leave the group. I pity the players who stay.

    One time, having typed this in chat and noone objected we got to final boss and the other DD triggers HM. He proceeds to die. We wipe. I type politely in chat, please, dont trigger HM. I have a dps meter, know how much I do, I know how much the group is doing, I politely explain the mechanics and with this dps we are ***...He of course trips HM again??...trolling or just didn't speak english who knows. Strangely a vote to kick doesn't work, so I leave.
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