U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update

ManDraKE

Merforum wrote: »

TRANSLATION: to satisfy all the PVP whiners we will be once again nerfing a lot of PVE and tanking capabilities. .

uh? we (PvP Players) couldnt care less about frost straff taunting/tanking, is irrelevant in PvP content, and as they explained in the posts the critical changes are because of PvE, because in PvP with have critical resistences and is a non-issue.

universal_wrath

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I don't see how those changes to frost staff improve it in the DD role. Making the taunt less confusing doesn't improve its use in the DD role.

These changes, while better than the current, just reinforce the staff as a support staff. Destruction magic/staves are meant for destruction magic. I just don't understand





EDIT:
Honestly, the way ZOS can ACTUALLY make frost have the flexibility they seem to be talking about can easily be done as:

each elemental destro staff ability gets a damage morph and a utility morph
add frost damage passives (just give it the 8% single target like fire)
make a separate magicka blocking passive that applies to any elemental staff

blockade: one morph is small and does damage, second morph is larger and has utility
touch: one morph has the utility, second morph has the DOT
impulse: (wasn't proposed with a utility change in the OP)

This still isn't as previously-established-lore-appropriate as making a mag tanking staff like alteration, illusion, etc., but it is way better.

Elemental susipiabitability exist and nobody ever use it, it should be chamged to taunt, if I want to taunt on a destructiin staff, I should be able to taunt on fire and lightning staves , not just frost.

Frost passive can be similar to warden (10% crit damage against chilled enemies) or something new.

Also, why frost blockade loses snare and damage? How is that helps with role verstality?

Also, since new frost clunch is a taunt, I supposed it will lose immoblization too? Or has cost reduction and does armor shred?

I'm hoping these changes do not reach pts to begin with, because if they do, 99% they will go life. That us just how zos works, ignoring pts player feedback.

Strider__Roshin

Can't choose BG match type? Well that's one way to deter me from doing BGs. What an awful idea.

Strider__Roshin

ManDraKE wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

TRANSLATION: to satisfy all the PVP whiners we will be once again nerfing a lot of PVE and tanking capabilities. .

uh? we (PvP Players) couldnt care less about frost straff taunting/tanking, is irrelevant in PvP content, and as they explained in the posts the critical changes are because of PvE, because in PvP with have critical resistences and is a non-issue.

PvEers loving blaming PvPers for their own issues.

Cryptical

In fact, the frost clench taunt should be made a bit cheaper than the pierce armor taunt, because of the loss of resource return from the frost heavy attack.

Basically, we are drilling a mob with a slush ball right in the face to *** them off, so that should be as cheap as angering them by jabbing a dagger in a soft tender spot.

Starlight_Whisper

Solariken wrote: »

Can we just create a new staff type, Alteration or whatever, for tanking? Frost is DESTRUCTION magic, let us destroy things with it.

Yeah they are splitting focus to much for it. Just pick one for frost already

Sirvaleen

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

PvEers loving blaming PvPers for their own issues.

It works both ways :

Casterial wrote: »

You're right, update 29, 30,40...etc is just going to continue to make it so PVE players can just walk into pvp and be good.

Most PvE players do not care about PvP. They don't need incentive, they'll never be interested and are happy like that.

Blaming game will not get us anywhere IMHO.

x48rph

For the love of god just please, stop. Stop with the constant changes. Stop with the overhauls, Stop with the spreadsheet warrior attitude. In no other game do i have to constantly change my build so much so often. You don't even let the dust settle from one round before your off on another round of changes. Heck, now we even get some in the incremental patches. You can't possible tell me you've done any kind of decent evaluation on the changes from the last patch and here you are, already working on a new round. Give it a rest. This constant, never ending shake up every couple months is why I didn't even bother to renew my subscription. When you decide to move the game back out of BETA status and cease with the constant overhauls, give me a ring and I might consider playing more again, until then, I got better games to play that don't nullify peoples hard work every couple of months. Have fun with your spreadsheets that have absolutely destroyed class identity and the uniqueness of eso combat......

universal_wrath

universal_wrath wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I don't see how those changes to frost staff improve it in the DD role. Making the taunt less confusing doesn't improve its use in the DD role.

These changes, while better than the current, just reinforce the staff as a support staff. Destruction magic/staves are meant for destruction magic. I just don't understand





EDIT:
Honestly, the way ZOS can ACTUALLY make frost have the flexibility they seem to be talking about can easily be done as:

each elemental destro staff ability gets a damage morph and a utility morph
add frost damage passives (just give it the 8% single target like fire)
make a separate magicka blocking passive that applies to any elemental staff

blockade: one morph is small and does damage, second morph is larger and has utility
touch: one morph has the utility, second morph has the DOT
impulse: (wasn't proposed with a utility change in the OP)

This still isn't as previously-established-lore-appropriate as making a mag tanking staff like alteration, illusion, etc., but it is way better.

Elemental susipiabitability exist and nobody ever use it, it should be chamged to taunt, if I want to taunt on a destructiin staff, I should be able to taunt on fire and lightning staves , not just frost.

Frost passive can be similar to warden (10% crit damage against chilled enemies) or something new.

Also, why frost blockade loses snare and damage? How is that helps with role verstality?

Also, since new frost clunch is a taunt, I supposed it will lose immoblization too? Or has cost reduction and does armor shred?

I'm hoping these changes do not reach pts to begin with, because if they do, 99% they will go life. That us just how zos works, ignoring pts player feedback.

They are improving frost DD role by removing all frost DD role and replace it with flame and lightning. It is either they mistyped a lot of stuff in their announcment, or they are just ignorant and making fun of players.

On a side note, daul crit stats seems interesting. Maybe a coming of hybrid builds?

This is big brain time.

Cinbri

x48rph wrote: »

For the love of god just please, stop. Stop with the constant changes. Stop with the overhauls, Stop with the spreadsheet warrior attitude. In no other game do i have to constantly change my build so much so often. You don't even let the dust settle from one round before your off on another round of changes. Heck, now we even get some in the incremental patches. You can't possible tell me you've done any kind of decent evaluation on the changes from the last patch and here you are, already working on a new round. Give it a rest. This constant, never ending shake up every couple months is why I didn't even bother to renew my subscription. When you decide to move the game back out of BETA status and cease with the constant overhauls, give me a ring and I might consider playing more again, until then, I got better games to play that don't nullify peoples hard work every couple of months. Have fun with your spreadsheets that have absolutely destroyed class identity and the uniqueness of eso combat......

If you want to wear exactly same sets and use exactly same 12 skills on exact same maps again and again for months and years - mmo is definetly not for you. It like perfect way for game to die coz boredom.

CaffeinatedMayhem

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

While this is just a preview it's hard to be too harsh on it without knowing the host of other changes coming. But here's my thoughts for anyone who cares.

1. Really glad to hear Frost Staff finally gets some love to allow DPS to use it.

But it didn't; all of its functionality for DDs has been stripped... nerfing the WoE damage and adding a shield means that there's not really a reason to run this as a PvE DD, unless one wants a support/DD hybrid role. Which most don't. I see the frost staff becoming a tank/healer weapon and trash to be deconstructed for DDs.

Exactly. The one class that has 2 damage bonuses based on Ice... still has no reason to use an ice staff for damage. I wish ZOS would just nerf the Animal Companions tree for Warden, or make them all stamina skills. Magicka Warden was never intended to DPS and ZOS just keeps making it worse.

MojaveHeld

Other users here have already covered how absurd the mindset behind the proposed PvE changes is, and why. So I'm just going to ask ZOS, please, listen to your players for once. With proposed changes like these, having no combat team at all would honestly be an upgrade from what they're currently giving us. Your combat team fundamentally does not understand their own content, and currently is doing far more harm than good.

silvereyes

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

we’re shifting the buffs/debuffs system so they are calculated on the server much in the same way as Sprint and Block.
...
During this change, we also adjusted buffs/debuffs to bring them more in-line with our standards for item sets and abilities.

Based upon past experience, these two lines really scare me.

Ekzorka

ManDraKE wrote: »

uh? we (PvP Players) couldnt care less about frost straff taunting/tanking, is irrelevant in PvP content, and as they explained in the posts the critical changes are because of PvE, because in PvP with have critical resistences and is a non-issue.

Well...

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Removing Snare from Wall of Frost

erio

When will you fix this boring af tank malacath meta? Im sick of just running into tank after tank after tank

ManDraKE

Ekzorka wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

uh? we (PvP Players) couldnt care less about frost straff taunting/tanking, is irrelevant in PvP content, and as they explained in the posts the critical changes are because of PvE, because in PvP with have critical resistences and is a non-issue.

Well...

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Removing Snare from Wall of Frost

OH yes, because the snare is such a key tool for PvE lol

x48rph

Cinbri wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

For the love of god just please, stop. Stop with the constant changes. Stop with the overhauls, Stop with the spreadsheet warrior attitude. In no other game do i have to constantly change my build so much so often. You don't even let the dust settle from one round before your off on another round of changes. Heck, now we even get some in the incremental patches. You can't possible tell me you've done any kind of decent evaluation on the changes from the last patch and here you are, already working on a new round. Give it a rest. This constant, never ending shake up every couple months is why I didn't even bother to renew my subscription. When you decide to move the game back out of BETA status and cease with the constant overhauls, give me a ring and I might consider playing more again, until then, I got better games to play that don't nullify peoples hard work every couple of months. Have fun with your spreadsheets that have absolutely destroyed class identity and the uniqueness of eso combat......

If you want to wear exactly same sets and use exactly same 12 skills on exact same maps again and again for months and years - mmo is definetly not for you. It like perfect way for game to die coz boredom.

Introducing new stuff or other things to work for is fine. Literally just nerfing into oblivion stuff people worked hard for its not. Nor is constantly changing the way it works. You want variety, introduce new things, not constantly change how those same twelve abilities function every three months. Regardless, it's also a perfect way to alienate your long term players, by constantly rendering their hard work meaningless. And I'm not objecting to some changes but it's the sheer amount and frequency. They don't even wait to see how the things they change affect combat before they are already working on more changes. That's like making a prototype and while someone is evaluating it , you've already rolled out 4 more with various changes without even waiting to find out how well the first one works.

phileunderx2

Not a fan of removing the snare from frost staff wall of elements.

FrancisCrawford

Cryptical wrote: »

If frost clench is going to be a weapon based range taunt then how about reducing the cost to be more in line with the weapon based melee taunt.

Actually, it should be a magicka-based CHAIN in addition or instead.

All classes already have a magicka ranged taunt, a stamina ranged taunt, and a stamina chain. But only one has a magicka chain. And without a magicka chain, it's hard to have a magicka-based build for trash fights.

hashsnob

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Other users here have already covered how absurd the mindset behind the proposed PvE changes is, and why. So I'm just going to ask ZOS, please, listen to your players for once. With proposed changes like these, having no combat team at all would honestly be an upgrade from what they're currently giving us. Your combat team fundamentally does not understand their own content, and currently is doing far more harm than good.

Its sad that this is probably true.

Anony_Mouse

Can we cool it on the combat changes every few weeks please? For the past year or so, every patch has had big changes to the the combat mechanics of this game and it is causing whiplash. Stop please. Just for a few patches at least.

With these proposed changes (I really hope they do not make it past the PST), you are killing the Ice Staff.
- Frost clench is fine as it is now. DO NOT TOUCH
- Wall of Elements is fine as it is now. DO NOT TOUCH
- Tanks wanting to use a magicka taunt can use Inner fire from the Undaunted skill line.

And for the love of god, if you are going to introduce ‘several new sets’ can you finally give us more storage space? With the rate you change sets and everything else, you never know what old set might come in handy. Plus wanting to test them all out... we need more storage. Not 5 slots from a crown store per, but 5 new storage coffers or significantly increased bank space. Even with ESO plus, it is just not cutting it any longer.

It is incredibly how you manage to *** off so many long term players with every single patch. I don’t see many happy reactions in this thread. Maybe that should be an indication... You are on the wrong path. Again.

mav1234

if frost staff doesn't set things off balance, it isn't going to be used by healers/tanks in pve I don't think.

tired of talk of closing the skill gap etc. let's find ways to raise players up instead of driving them down. maybe a decent in game tutorial?

would really prefer actual examples when you're talking about lowering the power of players.

Sinolai

Glad to hear frost staff taunt is being removed. However:
1. Undaunted skill line already provides ranged taunt that gives a synergy and has longer range than frost clench, meaning frost clench taunt is not needed pve wise. Hopefully it will also give some other effect that actually makes people want to use it.
2. Big AoE snare is one of the best utility you can hope for in PvP and I have replaced my root skills with this in PvE becouse big snare is more effective than 3sec root->immunity. If you take this away for a projectile absorbing shield, make sure the shield is actually worth it becouse the slow provided by this staff is going to be missed.
3. Nerfing forst staff damage is not really in line of making it more viable damage option.... Rather give it some damage oriented cool effect like fire (single target) and lightning (aoe). how about Increases duration of DoTs by x? (actually, that could be fire staff and frost could be single target... but then every dd must farm a frost staff for every mag set they have ).

nud3_voxel

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Players with builds that aren’t 100% optimized will see an increase in power, while players utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts will see a decrease in power.

That's next level. At least now easy sorc might be able to clear DLC trials HM.

WreckfulAbandon

x48rph wrote: »

For the love of god just please, stop. Stop with the constant changes. Stop with the overhauls, Stop with the spreadsheet warrior attitude. In no other game do i have to constantly change my build so much so often. You don't even let the dust settle from one round before your off on another round of changes. Heck, now we even get some in the incremental patches. You can't possible tell me you've done any kind of decent evaluation on the changes from the last patch and here you are, already working on a new round. Give it a rest. This constant, never ending shake up every couple months is why I didn't even bother to renew my subscription. When you decide to move the game back out of BETA status and cease with the constant overhauls, give me a ring and I might consider playing more again, until then, I got better games to play that don't nullify peoples hard work every couple of months. Have fun with your spreadsheets that have absolutely destroyed class identity and the uniqueness of eso combat......

Can't like/awesome this enough times. We should just quote this repeatedly in every new page that this thread spawns.

This is exactly how I feel and exactly how plenty of people in different discords I'm in feel as well.

James-Wayne

The step towards hybrid builds continues...

dimensional

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please reconsider the changes to frost staff -> less damage to wall of elements and removing snare of wall of elements

I use this A LOT in my frost mage DPS build. This change will probably completely ruin my build and all of the hours I spent building this character. I really hope you don't go through with this.

Iccengi

The suffering classes don’t need more or less crit. They need sustain. There are lots of arguments on best comp and always will be as things are fashionable or not but almost always what can sustain in raid determines who is dps and support.
Example last patch my mag warden hit a 95 high dps this patch can’t get past 84.
Was bfb that op? No birds actually hit harder
I
Just
Can’t
Sustain.
The dk meta was the meta because the asylum staff made it sustainable to pay dk. Now you say the dk passive was actually “over sustaining” and what is happening with my dk? It’s now a healer cause on dps you can’t sustain it.

nk125x

x48rph wrote: »

For the love of god just please, stop. Stop with the constant changes. Stop with the overhauls, Stop with the spreadsheet warrior attitude. In no other game do i have to constantly change my build so much so often. You don't even let the dust settle from one round before your off on another round of changes. Heck, now we even get some in the incremental patches. You can't possible tell me you've done any kind of decent evaluation on the changes from the last patch and here you are, already working on a new round. Give it a rest. This constant, never ending shake up every couple months is why I didn't even bother to renew my subscription. When you decide to move the game back out of BETA status and cease with the constant overhauls, give me a ring and I might consider playing more again, until then, I got better games to play that don't nullify peoples hard work every couple of months. Have fun with your spreadsheets that have absolutely destroyed class identity and the uniqueness of eso combat......

@ZOS_BrianWheeler - This is so right - PLEASE JUST ONCE DON'T CHANGE ANY COMBAT!

muh

Hey, just my insignifcant two cents.

Could you just stop doing these preview posts? They just cause a lot of speculation because you do not actually go into detail of what will change. We as players lack the big picture and may draw wrong conclusions because of it.

It's totally fine to explain some changes in more detail in a post similar to this one when you release the PTS patch notes and we get a bit more context. But right now, it's just unproductive. It just gets people upset. You're basically baiting your community into arguments for no good reason.

Also, a lot of the changes over the last two years... We only ever get to see small snippets out of a bigger picture. At least it sometimes seems like you have a bigger picture for your changes. You were hinting at the crit overhaul with the Elemental Catalyst changes (and I think somewhere earlier before that, but I can't remember).

I assume some of the changes we have seen in the last six or so month may only make sense when we get to see the CP rework eventually. Still this leaves your community upset and in the dark. We can just speculate what the kitten is going on with your combat team and how much they don't know anything about the game.

You sure as hell don't project a lot of thoughtfulness at times. And that's maybe where you should start to communicate better. Why don't you give us a better understanding of what the bigger picture is? Give us a better idea what your combat team sees as "pain points". Give us more of your vision of what the combat should look like in ESO in six month or even in twelve month.

The monthly performance improvement updates were a really neat thing and it made me a little sad that no alternative to communicate those updates has been found yet. But while you're at it, maybe figure something out along those lines for combat as well.

Around Wrathstone and your racial passive rework you mentioned that you wanted to go over class passives as well.
I'm relatively sure you mentioned somewhere that you wanted to give every class line a more defined use similar to Warden and Necromancer and open up more class abilities to stamina.
There was a big blog post that you wanted to improve class identity. (I strongly disagree how class identity was defined in that blog post, as well as giving class identity by robbing it from other classes.)

I can't deny that you made some changes ticking the boxes above, although significantly more subtle and spaced out compared to last year. Which is understandable given the huge backlash to sweeping changes, but I personally would've loved if that was communicated better in some fashion.

Now you're clearly focused on itemization, like critical chance. You say that it's too easy to get critical strike chance without investing into it. Yet choosing to run a precise staff is clearly investing into it. Running Mother's Sorrow, Medusa or Advancing Yokeda is clearly investing into it. Using the Thief Mundus is clearly investing into critical strike chance, yet the reason you give us is that we're getting too much crit passively. The only truly passive source aside from the baseline 10% everyone has is armour passives. As damage dealer you just have to run either light or medium in PvE.

This logic, it worries me a lot. The only "solution" I see in which people will not try to stack critical chance and critical damage is when you do you and go for a polar opposite in which it is just entirely worthless to use it. The day people don't want to run any of the sets mentioned above in a PvE setting is the day you failed your rebalancing of crit chance/damage in ESO.

It's like the proposed light and heavy attack changes where your "solution" was to make one clearly better than the other, instead of more or less linearly scaling damage and resource return from light to heavy. Like I think code65536 suggested.

Well anyway... It's late, I'm just rambling at this point. If you take anything away from my mental diarrhea, please start communicating your vision for the combat system, help us understand why.