Heavy Attacks w/ Seargent's Mail, Undaunted Infiltrator, and Dual Wield

Decimus

Mystikkal wrote: »

Folks keep talking about how you can dodge or block heavies. How they are easy to counter? Are we playing the same game? If I go to dodge the heavy, I will be fossilized after dodging and then need to break CC and dodge again to get outta root. Another complete stam drain.

If I go to block the heavy, it's a win for the DK and a loss for me. He gains stam, I lose it. Even if I block it, I will be petrified and heavied right after it. And the heavy will land before I break CC and dodge outta the root.

When two players are approaching each other, typically they both go to attack. It's rare that a player goes, OK, I'm going to block this guys attack and counter. That's not really how ESO works. Other games, if you block an attack, you may flinch the other player giving you an opening, etc. ESO doesn't really work that way. Watch any of the good streamer players, they aren't spamming block when they are engaging a single other player head on. The point is on those approaches, the heavy attack player with fossilize is super strong.

DK's also have built in snares, so between the snare and the movement speed on the build, the DK is literally faster than my stam sorc. all while have 30K health and heavy armor.

30K health and heavy armor is a TON of defense for the amount of dmg that the build does. I could only image having that kinda defense on a stam sorc.

comparing this build to a magic dk with heavies (which I think decimus is doing) doesn't make much sense as the build is very different. Again EU doesn't have top tier players running this build.

And I agree that venomous and sheer should be brought in line, not arguing that. The overall dmg on them are strong, but they don't come with the burst that heavy attack builds have. Just calling it like I see it man. I'm fine being outplayed in a BG, it happens. But sometimes when I die to that build, I don't think it was cause I was outplayed.

No, I do have a heavy attack stam DK - made the build about a week ago. It's not 100% optimized yet since I'm still using Mace/Axe of Sergeant (gotta transmute the swords), but I know 6% more damage isn't going to suddenly make it "overpowered".

I think the easiest and best counter to the build is to just outrange it, melee heavy attacks are notoriously difficult to land in this game and often just disappear into thin air instead of actually connecting with the opponent.

Apart from that, getting hit by the 16-17k heavy (assuming off balance is applied on you & heavy attack DK is in corrosive) still gives you time to CC break->dodge & block+heal afterwards, unless your health pool is like 20k in which case spin2win gets you.


You can go heavy armor on a stamina sorcerer as well btw, that's precisely what I do with Acuity+Draugrkin right now & it's extremely strong both offensively and defensively.

Pretty much the only thing that sucks is getting a few poison injections applied on you with sheer venoms & syvarra/venomous, because at that point you have 0 healing from Vigor/Dark Deal and die regardless of how well you kite, utilize LOS or do anything really. Same goes for any purgeless/cloakless class in the game though, including stam DK.

That is what's actually broken right now, not heavy attack builds that atleast have to get into melee range with you and land their burst.

Pepegrillos

I've been following the post since it was posted, and I have read its development throughly. This is an attempt of a TLDR and a small contribution.

It seems rather clear that the original post (now slightly changed) had two aims: 1) bring the build to the public eye and 2) ask for a nerf/fix. Sabre argued in favor of 2) by appealing to the following:

(i) The build is not working as intended (and he cited a claim by a Zos employee which apparently supported this premise).
(ii) The build is overperforming.

Most people seemed to have argue against Sabre's aim by tackling (ii). As you can see from Arkannax's and Jinxx's posts, they have tried to show that (ii) it's not true either by comparing the build to other well known overperforming builds (ranged double dot proc builds mostly), or by contesting the initial math assesment of the build.

As a personal note, I would like to point out that (i) and (ii) are logically independent from each other. That means, for example, that (ii) could be false while (i) is true. This is relevant because the strongest part of the argument against the build in its current form relies on (i), not on (ii). That is, the build could be in need of a fix even if it is not overperforming (presumably because Zos has a general strategy of fixing things that are not working as intended).

In fact, (ii) doesn't seem to be all that relevant for 2). Even if (ii) is true, it doesn't follow (at least not necessarily) that the build is in need of a nerf/fix. As all of us have noticed, this game is filled with overperforming builds that go untouched. Based on past behaviors, we can assume that Zos doesn't care too much about overperforming builds or doesn't have a general strategy to deal with them unless they become the norm (which is a point some have raised in this topic). As far as I have seen, the build is not the norm yet (at least in high mmr bgs).

The main issue is that none of us can assess (i) on our own. The closest thing we have as a response is Gina's quote. However, as some argued, the quote is old, and as far as we know their stance on these issues could've changed.

sabresandiego_ESO

Trying to justify a build that potentially one shots people and is most likely unintended due to the way dual wield heavies double dip on these heavy attack sets by deflecting attention towards other strong builds is the equivalent of telling a judge in court that you shouldn’t have gotten a speeding ticket because you think someone was going even faster than you. The judge would laugh at you and tell you that it doesn’t change the speed at which you were going to receive the ticket.

Complaining about dot procs and that they are strong and being used by a lot of people is actually extremely silly when these exact dot procs were literally streamlined and balanced according to Zenimax dot proc standards this very last patch. Dot procs have been normalized to roughly 2k DPS modified by unique properties which make each set different and interesting. The patch literally came out a couple weeks ago and this thread is not about what you’re trying to deflect to.

The biased defenders of these one-two shot HA builds fail to recognize the obvious differences between burst damage and damage over time. The vast majority of people in this game have no idea how broken this potentially exploiting heavy attack build actually is and someone should make a demonstration video so that people understand.

Decimus

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Trying to justify a build that potentially one shots people and is most likely unintended due to the way dual wield heavies double dip on these heavy attack sets by deflecting attention towards other strong builds is the equivalent of telling a judge in court that you shouldn’t have gotten a speeding ticket because you think someone was going even faster than you. The judge would laugh at you and tell you that it doesn’t change the speed at which you were going to receive the ticket.

You have the premise here wrong though, to use your own analogy: you'd like the judge to issue tickets for people going 10mph over the speed limit and ignore the ones going 50mph over it.


In any case, *** argument. You can look at things based on how they fit the big picture of game balance. If almost everything is broken, then "fixing" one of the dozens of broken things only removes it from the meta and leaves the rest there.

Suddenly the 1-2 heavy attacking stam DKs will be proccing 2-3 proc sets from 28m away instead of taking risks and playing something that takes skill to perform well with.


It's fine to bring attention to broken things, but better do that without bias and better consider what the end result would be.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Complaining about dot procs and that they are strong and being used by a lot of people is actually extremely silly when these exact dot procs were literally streamlined and balanced according to Zenimax dot proc standards this very last patch. Dot procs have been normalized to roughly 2k DPS modified by unique properties which make each set different and interesting. The patch literally came out a couple weeks ago and this thread is not about what you’re trying to deflect to.

You put an awful lot of faith in ZOS properly balancing the game with their "standards". At the moment the standard seems to be that one Sheer Venom proc > healing from Vigor.

This would be somewhat fine if it actually took some effort to apply said procs, but as it stands even people who haven't figured out how to weave light attacks in PvP can proc these sets (unless you think dodging every instant cast Poison Injection used by some zergling 28m away is realistic) and perform far above their skill level with them.

Also, how are these sets "different and interesting"? Most of them have very in-depth, unique proc conditions such as "deal damage" and the interesting effect is something along the lines of "deal X damage over X seconds".

Do you mean they have different numbers perhaps? Because that is literally the only difference a lot of them.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The biased defenders of these one-two shot HA builds fail to recognize the obvious differences between burst damage and damage over time. The vast majority of people in this game have no idea how broken this potentially exploiting heavy attack build actually is and someone should make a demonstration video so that people understand.

I'm pretty much the last person you can call biased, my main character (stamblade) runs Sheer Venom right now as it is simply too strong not to run, I have a Sheer Venom Syvarra's Malacath Ring BRP Bow bowcro that I play & several other DoT oriented builds as well as, yes, a heavy attack DK (and stamden) & several other burst oriented builds, some of which are much more "unfair" than the heavy attack stam DK.

I believe StaticWave just posted a cool demonstration/build video of his (heavy armor) stamina sorcerer using Rune Cage with Doylemish & Crystal Weapon, maybe give that one a watch? Zero of the sets mentioned in this thread are utilized in that build, in fact he's even running a sustain set on the back bar instead of opting to go for more damage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/545427/burstiest-stamsorc-build-ever

Oh, and here's an example of what a rangedplar can do from 28m away:


Target being a high MMR magden player on a tanky build, 33k health - I didn't even use an ultimate here.

precambria

The difference is I only know like 3-4 people who are running a HA build, I just got out of a bg with literally 8 people wearing smite/sheer which is way more toxic to play against, HA builds are not ruining battlegrounds even if they are bugged, dot procs are for sure making the game trash now

Mystikkal

The main difference between other burst builds and a heavy attack DK burst build is fossilize.

There is no counter play to fossilize.

I can roll dodge when static roots me and dodge his heavy.

If I roll dodge a heavy DK, they fossilize me. Then I have to break CC and roll dodge again.

What's that, 8k stam? I often have the stam to do that, but if I'm engaged, some times I don't.

It is clear that those advocating for this heavy attack build being balanced are the people who run heavy attack builds.

Decimus

Mystikkal wrote: »

The main difference between other burst builds and a heavy attack DK burst build is fossilize.

There is no counter play to fossilize.

I can roll dodge when static roots me and dodge his heavy.

If I roll dodge a heavy DK, they fossilize me. Then I have to break CC and roll dodge again.

What's that, 8k stam? I often have the stam to do that, but if I'm engaged, some times I don't.

It is clear that those advocating for this heavy attack build being balanced are the people who run heavy attack builds.

I will agree that Fossilize is bs to fight against, but that goes for fighting vs mDKs as well not just these heavy attack builds. Get Fossilized, 2+ ppl on you & almost 100% of time it's over before you can CC Break. Only counter to that is to build extremely tanky or atleast high health but yeah...

I don't find it a problem in 1v1. CC Break is 5280 stamina every 7 seconds, but I assume that to happen anyway regardless of what/whom I'm fighting. Dodge roll is 3,1k stam in 5 heavy, but you have other options such as BoL or Race Against Time.

I don't know if you've tried Torc yet on your stam sorc, but I have literally infinite resources on mine now in 5 heavy, it's pretty nice.

sabresandiego_ESO

Mystikkal wrote: »

The main difference between other burst builds and a heavy attack DK burst build is fossilize.

There is no counter play to fossilize.

I can roll dodge when static roots me and dodge his heavy.

If I roll dodge a heavy DK, they fossilize me. Then I have to break CC and roll dodge again.

What's that, 8k stam? I often have the stam to do that, but if I'm engaged, some times I don't.

It is clear that those advocating for this heavy attack build being balanced are the people who run heavy attack builds.

The main problem is that HA sets are double dipping with dual wield and that it’s pure burst damage on an attack that costs no resources to use. Defending against these double dipped “free” heavies is impossible outside of kiting. Blocking a dual wield double heavy is about the dumbest thing you can do in NoCP (unless you are built for blocking) because it costs the attacker 0 stamina, but It costs the defender massive stamina to block a double heavy, which is then followed with a fossilize.

If you’re dumb enough to block the heavies you will be out of stam within a matter of seconds. The exploit needs to be fixed by disallowing dual wield to double dip on HA sets so that HA sets are equally good on all weapons. A different solution would be to turn the bonus damage into a DOT like most other properly classified proc sets.

Heavy attack builds should be good, but they should not be devastatingly broken because of borderline exploitation of potential bugs or potential developer oversight.

Decimus

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

The main difference between other burst builds and a heavy attack DK burst build is fossilize.

There is no counter play to fossilize.

I can roll dodge when static roots me and dodge his heavy.

If I roll dodge a heavy DK, they fossilize me. Then I have to break CC and roll dodge again.

What's that, 8k stam? I often have the stam to do that, but if I'm engaged, some times I don't.

It is clear that those advocating for this heavy attack build being balanced are the people who run heavy attack builds.

The main problem is that HA sets are double dipping with dual wield and that it’s pure burst damage on an attack that’s costs no resources to use. Defending against these double dipped “free” heavies is impossible outside of kiting. Blocking a dual wield double heavy is about the dumbest thing you can do in NoCP (unless you are built for blocking) because it costs the attacker 0 stamina, but It costs the defender massive stamina to block a double heavy, which is then followed with a fossilize.

If you’re dumb enough to block the heavies you will be out of stam within a matter of seconds. The exploit needs to be fixed by disallowing the dual wield double dipped Ha sets so that it’s equally good on all weapons. A different solution would be to turn the bonus damage into a DOT like most other properly classified proc sets.

There's enough zergling DoT proc sets out there already, and the one DoT they attached to a heavy attack (Sunderflame) is actually less in value than DoTs that are much easier to apply. Literally no one runs Sunderflame, which once used to be a balanced, fun set.

Why is it balanced that DW gets to "double dip" into these bonuses? Because not every set should be equally powerful on each weapon type - that's how you dumb down a game & theorycrafting.

Rant time.

2H already gets much, much more powerful passives and easy access to Major Brutality, which is why most stamina builds out there still run 2H rather than DW. The few builds that run DW actually have to build around high burst/fast kills and hit and run tactics because they can't sustain over long periods of time like 2H can with its +40% stamina regen (Minor Endurance from Rally & 30% from Battle Rush passive).

2H also gets 10% more damage on following ability after a heavy attack, which can be a lot of extra burst with things like bow proc or any ultimate really (including AoE ones, making 2H a lot more viable for AoE builds).


It's actually disgusting how much stronger 2H in general already is outside a few niche setups, which people like you want to remove from existence.

Rant over.


In any case, what you consider exploit is how I think these sets should work based on what it says on tooltips of the items. If they didn't work as they do right now, I would report them as bugged.

Infiltrator/Unweaver
(5 items) When you use an ability that costs Magicka, you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 1685 for 10 seconds.

Dual Wield Heavy Attack is two hits, so both of these hits gain 1685. Makes sense.

Lightning Staff Heavy Attack reports three "heavy attacks" in combat log, each of these hits gain 1685. Makes sense. The final 4th hit that is reported as "Shock Pulse" is a bit more ambiguous, but I would consider that a part of the Heavy Attack as well.

Same goes for Restoration Staff as well with its three hits.


Sergeant
(5 items) Increases the damage of your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2257

"Fully charged" means that only the last hit gains the damage. Dual Wield heavy attack consists of two initial and last hits, so both of these getting buffed makes sense. In case of restoration/lightning staff heavies the initial 2-3 ticks not gaining the damage makes sense since otherwise "fully charged" would mean nothing if someone just canceled the heavy mid cast.


I'm sorry these sets aren't as good on the meta 2H builds. Good thing there's plenty of sets that work better on 2H than on DW, namely any set with stamina regen on it.


If you think Heavy Attack stam DK (or any other class) is too strong, then why not play it yourself if you think it outperforms whatever you happen to be playing rn.

Mystikkal

137:10 is interesting, fengrush goes in for a kill. He's outnumbered but you can see pretty much everyone on the team misses him except the heavy attacks from the DK.

But really I would look at the next play, 137:40. Pause and start it and let me know if you think those heavies should be hitting. DK heavies hit from way outside melee range. We say there is long wind up, but it's being done way outta range and hitting from miles away around corners.

This is literally the first video I could find with Fen and Arc in a game together. First 2 plays of the BG already show it

precambria

Streak and bombard is pretty much fossilize in an aoe form, at least you can range fossil or CC after break to interrupt the heavy A "cast time" having fought Arkanax and also about hundreds of people with sheer/smite I will say the counterplay options for both pretty much suck. I suspect that this build is infact buged and will be fixed, but there is no hope on the horizon for the 1 single spell does more dmg in dots than most people have HP which requires WAY less effort to execute, it's actually the most minimal possible effort that can be achieved and if the majority of the players using it tried to run sarg's HA they wouldn't even get close to their target before getting owned.

Decimus

Mystikkal wrote: »

137:10 is interesting, fengrush goes in for a kill. He's outnumbered but you can see pretty much everyone on the team misses him except the heavy attacks from the DK.

But really I would look at the next play, 137:40. Pause and start it and let me know if you think those heavies should be hitting. DK heavies hit from way outside melee range. We say there is long wind up, but it's being done way outta range and hitting from miles away around corners.

This is literally the first video I could find with Fen and Arc in a game together. First 2 plays of the BG already show it

I don't know, here on EU I wouldn't even think of playing with less than 25k health on any build. With off balance those heavies would be closer to 16k damage instead of the 8k & would drop him in range to get executed with one spin2win.

I guess the meta in general is much less toxic on NA or something and people aren't building high health or heavy armor to counter all the 2-3x proc set builds melting you into execute range within 1-2s.


In any case, those positional desyncs etc work both ways, here's an example (look at the second heavy attack in the clip, it just disappears and does nothing): https://clips.twitch.tv/FreezingBoxyVultureAMPEnergy

It also showcases some of the sustain issues you have when you're stuck spamming heals/dodging and can't heavy attack someone without pretty much just dying (with Corrosive up mind you).

This is not to say the build isn't very strong, but it isn't "overpowered" as people make it up to be.

In fact, if my stam sorc wasn't an AD I would've rather been on an Azureblight one like my friend there.


Here's another shorter clip to show the "disappearing heavy attack" issue:
https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulTangentialAirGuitarCoolCat


Happens all the time, on every character, though of course it's more annoying on a build 100% built around heavy attacks.

sabresandiego_ESO

Anybody who watches the video clip Mystikkal shared and is not blind or biased would see all of the fake narratives defending the potentially bugged heavy attack build instantly dispelled.

The victim dies twice, almost instantaneously, to heavy attacks that had no setup besides just holding down the left mouse button while moving and aiming in the general direction of the target with a rending thrown in for good measure. The victim is actually killed around a corner nowhere near the attacker on his second death.

Absurd amounts of Instant burst damage that come from resource free heavy attacks which hit you around corners and are double modified by dual wield has absolutely no justification. At least with ranged dot builds you have TIME to react and counter play while the DOTs tick on you. The victim in these videos had no time to react whatsoever.

Decimus

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anybody who watches the video clip Mystikkal shared and is not blind or biased would see all of the fake narratives defending the potentially bugged heavy attack build instantly dispelled.

The victim dies twice, almost instantaneously, to heavy attacks that had no setup besides just holding down the left mouse button while moving and aiming in the general direction of the target with a rending thrown in for good measure. The victim is actually killed around a corner nowhere near the attacker on his second death.

Absurd amounts of Instant burst damage that come from resource free heavy attacks which hit you around corners and are double modified by dual wield has absolutely no justification. At least with ranged dot builds you have TIME to react and counter play while the DOTs tick on you. The victim in these videos had no time to react whatsoever.

He had 2-3 seconds to react?!

Do you know what not having time to react looks like? It looks like this:
https://clips.twitch.tv/ScaryBoldDonkeyYee

Many other examples I could bring up (I trust I don't need to link any NB gank clips or similar), but a 22k health stam sorc having multiple seconds to get out of range or dodge roll is still perfectly balanced.

Mystikkal

It's actually kinda funny to watch the fengrush clip. Literally just heavy attack from across the map and hit someone. The setup was amazing... wait for it... Hold mouse down from around the corner.

It's not even the burst that bothers me so much, it's the fact that you can do that kinda damage and GAIN stamina rather than USE stamina. And you are able to do it in a defensive setup WITH swift. How is that remotely balanced? And if Fen didn't die from the heavy from china, the next step is a fossilize and then it's definitely GG

Decimus

Mystikkal wrote: »

It's actually kinda funny to watch the fengrush clip. Literally just heavy attack from across the map and hit someone. The setup was amazing... wait for it... Hold mouse down from around the corner.

It's not even the burst that bothers me so much, it's the fact that you can do that kinda damage and GAIN stamina rather than USE stamina. And you are able to do it in a defensive setup WITH swift. How is that remotely balanced? And if Fen didn't die from the heavy from china, the next step is a fossilize and then it's definitely GG

Of course skills hitting you from where they shouldn't is bs, but that happens with other skills as well (ever been executed from someone not even in your FOV? I have). If he hadn't died to that he could've used BoL twice and Vigor+Dark Deal->fine.

Regarding gaining stamina, that's how heavy attacks work across the board not just on this build. From my clip earlier you can see how good the sustain is when you can't heavy attack since the base regen with Sergeant+Infiltrator is around 800 in heavy armor. Heavy Stam DK is in deep trouble if you pressure it long enough while it can't heavy attack due to risk of dying (or just simply due to being out of range/heavies disappearing due to positional desyncs etc).

sabresandiego_ESO

Decimus: Actually no: if you ever run low on stamina On this build you can cast channeled acceleration and forward momentum Or RAT and then sprint away as fast as you can at the max movement speed the game allows until you are in a safe place to meditate.

I am completely okay with strong builds. I have known about this build for years and never peeped about it. This build crossed the line recently when the damage became undefendable due to the potential bug/oversight/exploits of the sets double dipping with dual wield.

The build also violates Zenimaxs own proc build design philosophy because the damage is instant burst damage instead of DOT damage. The fact that it’s attached to an attack that not only costs 0 resources, but gives them back makes this setup especially broken.

Decimus

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Decimuse: Actually no: if you ever run low on stamina you cast channeled acceleration and forward momentum and then sprint away as fast as you can at the max movement speed the game allows until you are in a safe place to meditate.

Yeah, unless you have two sheer venom & two venomous smites on you (bc ppl haven't realized yet that Syvarra is better) from some snipe spammers and they kill you while you're sprinting despite having Vigor & Corrosive up.

Arcanax had two deaths in that clip you're both referring to. Hmm....

Mystikkal

I'm not sure those heavies were "desyncs". The added range from DK heavies makes those pretty much common place. Again, I wasn't looking for a desync video. This was literally the first video I found on Fengrush's VOD. This is how DK heavies work with their added range.

WHILE USING DRACONIC POWER ABILITIES
Increase range of your instant melee attacks by 2 meters. This effect only applies to instant cast attacks with a 5 meters range.

As it relates to him just BOL out, those heavy DKs with RAT and movement speed are pretty good at tracking down stam sorcs actually. And you can't vigor/ Dark Deal in their face even with CC immunity, the dmg is too high

I've pressured that DK build for long periods of time, even outnumbering it, and the build has pretty good sustain when retreating even without heavies (because they have used minimal stam from abilities and RAT is magika). With RAT and movement speed it's hard to pressure them too hard because they are fast and heavy armor makes them pretty tanky.

Look decimus, I respect you as a player and you have a lot of interesting builds. But you have not played against this build with a top player running it. I've played against it for years. I'd welcome you to come play on NA, we've had a bunch of EU players come over and they were in for quite a surprise. Obviously ping is a major factor though

Been a fun discussion. Take care all

Decimus

Mystikkal wrote: »

I'm not sure those heavies were "desyncs". The added range from DK heavies makes those pretty much common place. Again, I wasn't looking for a desync video. This was literally the first video I found on Fengrush's VOD. This is how DK heavies work with their added range.

WHILE USING DRACONIC POWER ABILITIES
Increase range of your instant melee attacks by 2 meters. This effect only applies to instant cast attacks with a 5 meters range.

As it relates to him just BOL out, those heavy DKs with RAT and movement speed are pretty good at tracking down stam sorcs actually. And you can't vigor/ Dark Deal in their face even with CC immunity, the dmg is too high

I've pressured that DK build for long periods of time, even outnumbering it, and the build has pretty good sustain when retreating even without heavies (because they have used minimal stam from abilities and RAT is magika). With RAT and movement speed it's hard to pressure them too hard because they are fast and heavy armor makes them pretty tanky.

Look decimus, I respect you as a player and you have a lot of interesting builds. But you have not played against this build with a top player running it. I've played against it for years. I'd welcome you to come play on NA, we've had a bunch of EU players come over and they were in for quite a surprise. Obviously ping is a major factor though

Been a fun discussion. Take care all

Melee Light/Heavy Attacks have 7m range, regardless of class - you can test this on target dummy if you want.

Actually just did that myself, DK does seem to have more range... the "disappearing heavy attacks" issue is even worse than I thought.


Yes, swift+steed help when chasing but two BoLs still let you Dark Deal & BoL again before anyone gets within 7m.

I run Wild Hunt ring, 3 swift & steed on my stamblade & there's still mag sorcs who manage to escape with relative ease (2-3 BoLs).


I do understand the issues pressuring a 30k health heavy armor build that uses Corrosive as their ultimate though, but you can be just as tanky (and high damage) on stam sorc if you choose to (draugrkin, or check out StaticWave's Doylemish heavy armor build).


I could probably deal with the ping on NA, it's more the necessity of running mythics & dropped sets on any top tier build that serves as an obstacle, along time constraints.

Waffennacht

*edit* let me remove thy foot from thy mouth lol

sabresandiego_ESO

Waffen: Feng is not using this heavy attack build in the clip, he’s on the receiving end of it.

JinxxND

As mentioned this is not a thread really about the sets it's really about one player Arcanasx who's mentioned numerous times here who is able to play at a higher level and just so happens to be using a melee heavy attack build, there are a handful of players using similar or the exact setup but don't perform nearly as well and are countered regularly yet no complaints about burst damage or how OP they are because the don't play the build well showing the many flaws of the build and how it's not just some instant uncounterable damage that requires an ultimate, a form of off balance via a 2h with another cast time or lightning staff then 2 fully charged telegraphed heavies with cast time in melee.

There is a reason you don't see a majority of the game running heavy attack builds when staticwave also listed a build on stamsorc that has more burst damage and tankiness with better sustain running 2 sustain sets with the same heavy attack setup that doesn't even require off balance or an ultimate with a proc that is not a dot and able todo way more damage then any 2 heavy attacks sets combined which goes against the OP argument of all proc sets are balance in line with dot damage which everyone know is not true with sets like sheer venom that deliberately go against nerfing sets like sloads

Sheer venom not only does more damage then sloads which was OBLIVION damage it's able to be boosted due to it being physical based proc, does not have a % chance to proc and is guaranteed it also double proc with a bow WITHOUT a cooldown on top of having an execute modifier which can can counter any self heals especially in a non CP environment. So to say zos knows what they are doing is questionable.

Everyone attacking Arcanasx here has or is currently using some actual broken or busted mechanic without counter play in game whether that be sheer venom boosted with necro passives, major defile spam and double proccing with a bow (I'm not against a dot based playstyle with procs but sheer venom is beyond busted and abused), spammable bombard into streak which is more oppressive then fossilize in my opinion and can affect an entire group not just one person, or even my class having a stun on incap which I've been calling out for the longest to be removed yet they added it back the game so you can build a burst proc to hit with the stun for 0 counter play which I am currently doing.

This thread on top of being targeted at one player which I think is super low screams to me "what benefits me is fine but what is used against me but I refuse to counter so I can be in my ways"

JinxxND

I actually encourage people to try out heavy attack builds and see if they can pull it off all classes have access to them and as proven with staticwave build, and can create more bursty setups on other classes with less setup that cover the weaknesses of the low sustain on them and see how many way it can be countered

sabresandiego_ESO

Jinx: No

This thread isn’t about the one player who actually utilizes this setup well right now. This thread isn’t about the multiple aspects of this build that are borderline overpowered. I’m okay with all of that

This thread is about the fact that dual wield gets double the benefit as all other Stam weapons on these two HA sets and because of that it creates a situation which violates Zenimaxs burst proc philosophy.

Fix the potential exploit here and you can leave the player and the build exactly the same.

JinxxND

You understand that dual wield has always had two heavy attacks right boosted by whatever you are running stat wise? So even with a set like NMA, clever alch, briarheart, Stuhns (which is a stronger version of sergeant and literally uses the off balance to proc it the same way on top of giving you the highest damage in the game for PvP and applying to skills like whirling blades) they will boost the 2nd heavy as well because it's part of the design of dual wield

This opens up theory craft and pros cons for every weapon, the bow has the hawk eye passive that essentially gives it major berserk on demand if you use it, 2h has it's perks, SnB has its perks

This topic is annoying because I see it as an attack on a player not any build because there are a few people running around yet no mention of them everything comes back to what Arcanasx and trying to break down everything he does and not well clearly and does not include the other players on heavy attack builds because many of them fall victim to the cons of the heavy attack builds and don't play it well. So let's attack the one player who plays well but the others who are doing the same fully investing into spamming telegraphed heavies sacrificing healing/survival/sustain which I've seen get abused with cc spam don't worry about them because even though they have the same damage capabilities I can deal with that

sabresandiego_ESO

Actually that’s not what @ZOS_GinaBruno said back in 2017. She clearly stated that these heavy attacks sets were not meant to double proc on dual wield at that time.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368280/the-sergeant-set-and-dual-wield-heavy-attacks

Maybe @ZOS_BrianWheeler can confirm if they changed their minds since that 2017 post and that dual wield is now correctly supposed to have double the burst damage potential from these heavy attack sets as all other stamina weapons.

dougodell88ub17_ESO

The build is strong as it should be when you take the time to actually theory craft, practice and devote everything to it mean while covering all of your weaknesses. Play a heavy attack build your self and see how far you get then come back and tell us how it went.

sabresandiego_ESO

dougodell88ub17_ESO wrote: »

The build is strong as it should be when you take the time to actually theory craft, practice and devote everything to it mean while covering all of your weaknesses. Play a heavy attack build your self and see how far you get then come back and tell us how it went.

Good then it should be just fine after they fix dual wield from doubling the five piece bonus of each set. In the meantime, run the build without using dual wield and then come back and tell us how it went.

JinxxND

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

dougodell88ub17_ESO wrote: »

The build is strong as it should be when you take the time to actually theory craft, practice and devote everything to it mean while covering all of your weaknesses. Play a heavy attack build your self and see how far you get then come back and tell us how it went.

Good then it should be just fine after they fix dual wield from doubling the five piece bonus of each set. In the meantime, run the build without using dual wield and then come back and tell us how it went.

Same could be said about sheer venom and bow refreshing the proc on poison inject which is clearly overperforming yet I don't see you complaining about that because it benefits your build.

Sheer venom is essentially sloads 3.0, does more damage then the oblivion damage dealt on the original sloads, can be boosted, removes any RNG that sloads had, on top of refreshes it's self because 0 cooldown on the set with a bow which is clearly overperforming with it as it double procs off one inject. does not have any tell like sloads got adjusted to have with the shadow orb that you can dodge.

Instead of trying to use any of the counter play options available to use or adjust the build you realize only 1 player with an extremely niche and counterable build undermines your performance in BG's pretty consistently and instead of adapt/or use one of the many counters you go to the forums to target the one person which says a lot. So this essentially isn't about anything on sets or in game mechanics I feel like this is about targeting one player.

I don't mind too much as everyone is doing something that strong in PvP to an extent so no hard feeling go out anywhere but it's clearly not about abuse when one is abusing stuff themselves with less counterplay.