Heavy Attacks w/ Seargent's Mail, Undaunted Infiltrator, and Dual Wield

JinxxND

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Azramel wrote: »

@Arcanasx That's interesting that resto and lightning get more and I assume it's from the long channel to complete it. In that regard, do you think dual wield should get double what a two hander or sword and shield get? If so, why?

2 Hand heavies are slower than Dual Wield Heavies which are relatively fast. 2 of the unique items for Seargent's Mail are two handed weapons. None are dual wield weapons. There is no rational explanation for why dual wield heavies would be twice as good with this set as 2H or SNB heavies. Everything points to this set currently being bugged, even the post from 2017. The amount of burst damage this set is capable of doing with its double dipping w/ full heavy attack modifiers from multiple sources doesn't seem in line with Zenimax's recent philosophy with sets that add burst damage.

There is a small chance the set is working as intended because Zenimax somewhere, somehow changed their mind on how this set should work and how much potential burst damage a single set can provide. It just doesn't seem logical or likely.

2 hander has better passives that make it superior overall and why a majority of stam in PvP is running it all 1h weapons including sword and board have slightly faster heavies. Each weapon has passive and things that make them unique and able to take advantage of other passive and synergies. Such as heavy armor with SnB taking advantage of the faster heavies for the sustain passive revitalize on heavy with the added tankiness from SnB that can make for interesting combos.

This whole thread comes down to lack of knowledge of the in game mechanics and how lack of understanding to replicate results and/or understanding the counter play and simply calling something OP that requires a full list of things that has numerous forms of counter play to achieve said end result. Yet the irony that other things that are actually OP and abused such as procs sets like sheer venom okay and glorified and claimed to balanced because individuals have and use them themselves

sabresandiego_ESO

If you two weren't using Seargent's Mail yourselves, which you both obviously are since you're in the same battlegrounds as me, you likely wouldn't be defending it so fervently or trying to point the finger at other sets to try and divert attention away from this potentially bugged and over performing set. Arguing is a waste of time because its not going to change anybodies opinion. Zenimax should state whether this set is working correctly or is in-fact bugged so that we can all accept their decision whatever it may be. If the set is working as intended, I would be surprised, but accept it and move on.

JinxxND

I don't actually use it because it requires there is too much counter play to it but I do have it and understand how it functions, it doesn't buff any of my big dmg skills stuff in my kit and I don't like having to set off balance on everyone and holding down fully charged heavy attacks while getting proc'd down by every sheer venom user in the game, I think the set is really niche and too much effort to use but understand how it can be used

emsuperman24

No, sergeant’s mail in general or with dw heavy attacks is not over performing.

It has worked this way for quite some time in fact way before the sergeant mail buff.

Also logically makes sense you are technically charging two heavy attacks with two separate weapons so it should include both hits. Same as people have explained channels with lightning or resto.

The heavy build is a lot of fun, but against average to good players takes quite a bit of skill to be effective.

It’s not going anywhere and I for one am glad. Gives dk a burst option if you sell out completely to get it.

sabresandiego_ESO

Is undaunted infiltrator set also boosting dual wield heavies twice, once on each heavy? Making it twice as good on dual wield as it is on other weapons?

emsuperman24

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Is undaunted infiltrator set also boosting dual wield heavies twice, once on each heavy? Making it twice as good on dual wield as it is on other weapons?

Yes.

Also I believe that dw heavy per hand is the weakest of all heavies including 1h and shield. I’d need to double check but think that is the case.

emsuperman24

FYI

Sets such as new moon, essence thief, sword dancer also add damage to both heavies and light attacks for dual wield. It’s pretty consistent across the board.

Appo

This destroyed me in 2 seconds, its a resto staff crazy, crazy game!!



I have 27k resists, 3k crit resists and 31k HP........

It just melted me

JobooAGS

It kills me inside to see a procblade with sheer venom + hunters venom + hide away from 41m, but if so get one shotted by a sergeant’s mail heavy attack build, I would be surprised, then I’d have a little laugh instead especially when it comes from a particular person in one of my guilds (can’t name them due to the TOS, but I’m sure they personally wouldn’t mind if I did). Not saying that SM is not broken, but there are other things that need fixing 1st.

sabresandiego_ESO

Here’s what I will do: I will change the formatting of this thread to detail exactly how to run this build effectively to 1-2 shot people instead of trying to somehow prove that this level of on demand burst damage is unreasonable

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Here’s what I will do: I will change the formatting of this thread to detail exactly how to run this build effectively to 1-2 shot people instead of trying to somehow prove that this level of on demand burst damage is unreasonable

I see you left out battle spirit and mitigation after your new hyperbolic edit. So cut that 11k in half to 5.5k for battle spirit. Now you have to take armor into account, it usually averages out to another 25% off, or about 16500 armor, taking into account fighting light, medium, and heavy armor builds after major fracture. So that becomes about 4125 on average. There's also minor and major protection to consider; that can be another 8%/30% potential mitigation on top of that.

And, the 70% is if off balance is on them (assuming no-CP), which can only have an uptime around 33% of the time, which any reasonably competent player will now to be on their guard and play more defensively during that off balance window. So 66% of the time it actually just ends up being about 2962 added damage.

And this is if you don't dodge or block the delayed, telegraphed attack. Blocking is another 50% reduction without a shield or other block passives, so with off balance that 4125 becomes about 2062. Even less when blocking with a shield.

Meanwhile, your venomous smite usually does about 800-900 damage ticks per second against me, and sheer venom on average tends to hit harder due to the execute scaling. All you need to do is light attack into poision injection from a distance to activate those procs on me. Someone hitting you with dual wield sergeants needs to run up to you, and you to not do anything defensive for 1.75 seconds for what would usually be 2962 or 4125 off balanced extra for you to take their delayed, telegraphed fully charged heavy attack unblocked.

That is a 7-8k difference, 11k as you claim, to 4125, or 2962 without off balance. It is blatantly obvious you are intentionally exaggerating the practical capabilities of the set. Not surprising considering you won't even address any of my points at all other than accusing me derailing the thread and making personal attacks on your character. Any reasonable person can see your thread for what it is...

And btw, your steps of replicating what you a "supposed" to do to run it effectively is just off. I just had to smh.

And I'm sure the majority will agree that the new sunderflame is a garbage tier set that pales in comparison to the likes of venomous smite and sheer venom, how could that possibly be?

Edit: Grammar and mentioning sunderflame

sabresandiego_ESO

I updated the original post and title to be less of a specific narrative and more of a simple presentation of facts.

As for what Arcanasx and Jinx have written: there is a huge difference between "on demand burst" damage and dot damage. On demand burst damage has been under a balancing microscope for years, meanwhile all the new and updated proc sets from the latest patch are intentionally designed and streamlined to be either DOT damage, or have an avoidable animation with a cooldown.

JinxxND

Would be alot healthier meta with everyone trying stat based builds and trying to land fully charged melee heavy attacks then this current cancerous sheer venom/double proc/triple proc meta just btw

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I updated the original post and title to be less of a specific narrative and more of a simple presentation of facts.

As for what Arcanasx and Jinx have written: there is a huge difference between "on demand burst" damage and dot damage. On demand burst damage has been under a balancing microscope for years, meanwhile all the new and updated proc sets from the latest patch are intentionally designed and streamlined to be either DOT damage, or have an avoidable animation with a cooldown.

0 cooldown on sheer venom also double procs with a bow making bow superior to all other weapons running the set similar to the hypocrisy of saying dw or lightning staff is better to run heavy attacks, on top dealing more damage then the skill used to proc it. As for on demand burst it's not on demand as stated tons of times in the thread, for the build you are calling out with sergeants you need to cast an ultimate that's expensive at that, proc off balance with a lightning staff or d swing a skill with a cast time, then land at least 2 fully charged heavy attacks that are telegraphed with cast times

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I updated the original post and title to be less of a specific narrative and more of a simple presentation of facts.

As for what Arcanasx and Jinx have written: there is a huge difference between "on demand burst" damage and dot damage. On demand burst damage has been under a balancing microscope for years, meanwhile all the new and updated proc sets from the latest patch are intentionally designed and streamlined to be either DOT damage, or have an avoidable animation with a cooldown.

Thats also 3 times that you have changed the OP now. You completely removed your 11k sergeants damage hyperbole after I exposed what a ridiculous exaggeration that was and that it actually ends up being 2962-4125 added to your heavies with molten armaments and malacath on average. Now you're trying to push the idea that using dual wield with sergeants could be this" potential exploit" that needs to be "under a microscope" in a veiled attempt to desperately get this set nerfed, without showing any math now to explain the practicality of the set.

All of this coming from someone who thinks venomous smite and sheer venom is perfectly fine...

JinxxND

This post is all about personal bias and that you don't like them not that they are over performing, as you didn't even mention the other heavy attack sets that can be used with dual wield or lightning staff unique heavy attacks and you only named 2

FrankonPC

[Quoted post removed]

I don't think they're bugged because the devs are good at balancing these things and that was 3 years ago. Besides, you need skill to use procs, it makes the game more fun and exciting!

How are you defining an "oversight"? I showed multiple times how procs give free damage, but you were ok with procs being stronger. Now you fight strong procs and that's a problem for you?

FrankonPC

Akinos wrote: »

It's not just in BG and no cp where these stamina heavy attack builds are, i can name a few people that are running said heavy attack builds in cyro and IC, personally I have been hit by 12K+ dual wield heavies(6kish from each hand) On pretty tanky builds. I mean major protection+things like the necro ghost. And I'm sure we've all seen streams and videos of people running this heavy attack build, 1 shotting guards and sometimes players.

Something just isn't right about being able to have 35k-45k hp and still have the ability to land 12k+ hits on people.

yep, procs and health based heals are an extremely problematic issue in this game right now.

Procs used to have to be run at the cost of reduced healing. With health based heals their only weakness is eliminated.

The issue is that there are a lot of proc sets that fill this action, a lot of which can also be buffed by malacath.

sabresandiego_ESO

FrankonPC wrote: »

[Quoted post removed]

I don't think they're bugged because the devs are good at balancing these things and that was 3 years ago. Besides, you need skill to use procs, it makes the game more fun and exciting!

How are you defining an "oversight"? I showed multiple times how procs give free damage, but you were ok with procs being stronger. Now you fight strong procs and that's a problem for you?

"On demand burst" damage that is tied to a free to cast spammable heavy attack is completely different than DOT procs which take time to do damage and can be healed through, line of sighted, and cleansed; or telegraphed burst procs that have a long cooldown.

FrankonPC wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

It's not just in BG and no cp where these stamina heavy attack builds are, i can name a few people that are running said heavy attack builds in cyro and IC, personally I have been hit by 12K+ dual wield heavies(6kish from each hand) On pretty tanky builds. I mean major protection+things like the necro ghost. And I'm sure we've all seen streams and videos of people running this heavy attack build, 1 shotting guards and sometimes players.

Something just isn't right about being able to have 35k-45k hp and still have the ability to land 12k+ hits on people.

yep, procs and health based heals are an extremely problematic issue in this game right now.

Procs used to have to be run at the cost of reduced healing. With health based heals their only weakness is eliminated.

The issue is that there are a lot of proc sets that fill this action, a lot of which can also be buffed by malacath.

Dot procs are countered by heals, cleanses/cloaks, and line of sights

Burst procs are given cooldowns and long telegraphed animations

Zenimax decided they wanted to streamline and balance procs along those lines, while hovering @ roughly 2kDPS modified by unique properties for each proc.

I like the way Zenimax balanced procs this last patch. I think they did a good job, and I know we disagree on that. But we likely have common ground on the subject at hand here: These heavy attack sets violate their proc balancing standards and allow for the exact builds you mention.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

[Quoted post removed]

I don't think they're bugged because the devs are good at balancing these things and that was 3 years ago. Besides, you need skill to use procs, it makes the game more fun and exciting!

How are you defining an "oversight"? I showed multiple times how procs give free damage, but you were ok with procs being stronger. Now you fight strong procs and that's a problem for you?

"On demand burst" damage that is tied to a free to cast spammable heavy attack is completely different than DOT procs which take time to do damage and can be cleanse, or telegraphed burst procs that have a long cooldown.

FrankonPC wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

It's not just in BG and no cp where these stamina heavy attack builds are, i can name a few people that are running said heavy attack builds in cyro and IC, personally I have been hit by 12K+ dual wield heavies(6kish from each hand) On pretty tanky builds. I mean major protection+things like the necro ghost. And I'm sure we've all seen streams and videos of people running this heavy attack build, 1 shotting guards and sometimes players.

Something just isn't right about being able to have 35k-45k hp and still have the ability to land 12k+ hits on people.

yep, procs and health based heals are an extremely problematic issue in this game right now.

Procs used to have to be run at the cost of reduced healing. With health based heals their only weakness is eliminated.

The issue is that there are a lot of proc sets that fill this action, a lot of which can also be buffed by malacath.

Dot procs are countered by heals, cleanses/cloaks, and line of sights

Burst procs are given cooldowns and long telegraphed animations

Zenimax decided they wanted to streamline and balance procs along those lines, while hovering @ roughly 2kDPS modified by unique properties for each proc.

I like the way Zenimax balanced procs this last patch. I think they did a good job, and I know we disagree on that. But we likely have common ground on the subject at hand here: These heavy attack sets violate their proc balancing standards and allow for the exact builds you mention.

Fully charged heavy attacks are delayed and telegraphed, why do you keep forgetting to mention that.

"Dot procs are countered by heals, cleanses/cloaks, and line of sights"

Listen to yourself, you just said that a dot proc can be countered by LOS (like...seriously?), yet don't mention that heavy attacks can and are actually countered by LOSing?

"Burst procs are given cooldowns and long telegraphed animations "

Can you give me an example of which burst damage proc set you consider to have a long telegraphed animation that takes longer than a fully charged heavy attack?

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx: When you are hit with a dot proc, you can either cleanse/cloak it, heal through it, or retreat/LOS away and heal through it because DOTs take time to kill meaning there is time to react.

Burst procs: such as selenes have a long telegraphed animation which is avoidable and a cooldown

Heavy attack burst damage: Is completely controllable burst damage. It is on demand burst damage. Instant burst damage has no real counter, especially when you combine it with CC like Petrify. Most kills in this game come from burst combined with CC. You control when to use the heavy attack, you control the aim and movement of your character before landing the attack, and heavy attacks are as simple as holding down the left mouse button.

The counterplay is minimal, particularly in battlegrounds because heavy attacks cost 0 resources to use, and return resources to the attacker. Blocking or rolling the heavy attacks runs the defensive player out of stamina since the defense uses resources while the attack does not. This is compounded by the fact that DK's can petrify on cooldown to get past defenses and further run the defensive player out of stamina. The only actual counterplay to this build is to be on a tanky build or stay at range or have a competant team to work with. The build is completely overperforming outside of those parameters and has little to no counterplay otherwise. And that's exactly why you use it and have used it exclusively for the last several years in battlegrounds.

JinxxND

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

[Quoted post removed]

I don't think they're bugged because the devs are good at balancing these things and that was 3 years ago. Besides, you need skill to use procs, it makes the game more fun and exciting!

How are you defining an "oversight"? I showed multiple times how procs give free damage, but you were ok with procs being stronger. Now you fight strong procs and that's a problem for you?

"On demand burst" damage that is tied to a free to cast spammable heavy attack is completely different than DOT procs which take time to do damage and can be healed through, line of sighted, and cleansed; or telegraphed burst procs that have a long cooldown.

FrankonPC wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

It's not just in BG and no cp where these stamina heavy attack builds are, i can name a few people that are running said heavy attack builds in cyro and IC, personally I have been hit by 12K+ dual wield heavies(6kish from each hand) On pretty tanky builds. I mean major protection+things like the necro ghost. And I'm sure we've all seen streams and videos of people running this heavy attack build, 1 shotting guards and sometimes players.

Something just isn't right about being able to have 35k-45k hp and still have the ability to land 12k+ hits on people.

yep, procs and health based heals are an extremely problematic issue in this game right now.

Procs used to have to be run at the cost of reduced healing. With health based heals their only weakness is eliminated.

The issue is that there are a lot of proc sets that fill this action, a lot of which can also be buffed by malacath.

Dot procs are countered by heals, cleanses/cloaks, and line of sights

Burst procs are given cooldowns and long telegraphed animations

Zenimax decided they wanted to streamline and balance procs along those lines, while hovering @ roughly 2kDPS modified by unique properties for each proc.

I like the way Zenimax balanced procs this last patch. I think they did a good job, and I know we disagree on that. But we likely have common ground on the subject at hand here: These heavy attack sets violate their proc balancing standards and allow for the exact builds you mention.

There is no cool down on sheer venom and it double procs as stated for the millionth time

Psiion

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Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx: When you are hit with a dot proc, you can either cleanse/cloak it, heal through it, or retreat/LOS away and heal through it because DOTs take time to kill meaning there is time to react.

Burst procs: such as selenes have a long telegraphed animation which is avoidable and a cooldown

Heavy attack burst damage: Is completely controllable burst damage. It is on demand burst damage. Instant burst damage has no real counter, especially when you combine it with CC like Petrify. Most kills in this game come from burst combined with CC. You control when to use the heavy attack, you control the aim and movement of your character before landing the attack, and heavy attacks are as simple as holding down the left mouse button.

The counterplay is minimal, particularly in battlegrounds because heavy attacks cost 0 resources to use, and return resources to the attacker. Blocking or rolling the heavy attacks runs the defensive player out of stamina since the defense uses resources while the attack does not. This is compounded by the fact that DK's can petrify on cooldown to get past defenses and further run the defensive player out of stamina. The only actual counterplay to this build is to be on a tanky build or stay at range or have a competant team to work with. The build is completely overperforming outside of those parameters and has little to no counterplay otherwise. And that's exactly why you use it and have used it exclusively for the last several years in battlegrounds.

"When you are hit with a dot proc, you can either cleanse/cloak it, heal through it, or retreat/LOS away and heal through it because DOTs take time to kill meaning there is time to react."

You can do the same against heavy attacks. And I'm quite certain that LOSing is a more effective defense against heavy attacks than when trying to LOS when theres dot procs on you. You can also cloak to avoid heavy attacks, also those heavy attacks dont stick on you when you use cloak to make them miss. And not everyone has a cleanse, but everyone can block, dodge, LOS, move out and interrupt the heavy attack charge up with a stun.

"Burst procs: such as selenes have a long telegraphed animation which is avoidable and a cooldown"

It actually takes longer to begin charging up a dual wield heavy attack and land it than it is to get hit by selenes when it activates if you dont move out if it in time.

"Heavy attack burst damage: Is completely controllable burst damage. It is on demand burst damage. Instant burst damage has no real counter,"

Heavy attacks are not instant burst damage, it comes with a delayed, telegraphed animation before it connects to deal its damage and you can dodge, block and stun them to negate or mitigate it. In no way is it "on demand burst damage", when there are several conditions that have to be met to be able to do said burst damage.

"The counterplay is minimal, particularly in battlegrounds because heavy attacks cost 0 resources to use, and return resources to the attacker."

Venomous smite and sheer venom are not resource intensive sets with difficult proc conditions, in fact you can save resources yourself as well because of the damage that they can deal for you.

"Blocking or rolling the heavy attacks runs the defensive player out of stamina since the defense uses resources while the attack does not."

Almost as if there's more counter play options available against heavy attacks to mitigate the damage than there are for autopilot ranged proc dots. Having proc dots on you with no cleanse forces you to eat the damage, or spend resources to cleanse them if its available to you. Also, how many resources are you spending for proc attacks? How difficult is it to light attack into poison injection at a safe distance to activate 2 proc dot sets at the same time, and have it deal most of your damage? When was the last time you've dodged or blocked a sheer venom proc?

"This is compounded by the fact that DK's can petrify on cooldown to get past defenses and further run the defensive player out of stamina."

They can do this while wearing venomous smite and sheer venom as well to add even more pressure to your resources?

"The only actual counterplay to this build is to be on a tanky build or stay at range or have a competant team to work with."

Maybe you could try using a dedicated stun and snare removal to help defend yourself against heavy attacks. Blocking is quite an effective defense too. Or if you're unwilling to adapt against heavy attack builds, then accept that your build is going to be at a disadvantage against certain playstyles when they close the distance and you fail to kite them successfully.

"The build is completely overperforming outside of those parameters and has little to no counterplay otherwise."

The same can be said for venomous smite and sheer venom, especially when used with a stamcro using brp bow and holding onto goliath ult as well. In fact I'm quite confident the majority would agree that those dot proc sets are more cheesy, OP, and easier to use compared to the niche, rarely used set that is sergeants. Also, you just said that tanky builds or stay-at-range builds is the actual counter play to heavy attack builds?

"And that's exactly why you use it and have used it exclusively for the last several years in battlegrounds.'


No, I don't exclusively play bgs...just another incorrect claim.

Edit: Grammar.

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx: DOT damage and sudden burst damage are two completely different things. There is a reason they changed all proc sets to either DOT damage, or a slow avoidable animation that does burst like Selenes.

Heavy attack combo burst is not only instant burst damage, its burst damage that is fully controllable by the player unlike Selenes. When you are a 30k HP heavy armor tank moving at nearly the maximum allowable move speed due to stacking speed, the heavy attacks are like homing missles. This is not even close to the same thing as Selenes: a silly bear animation with a giant red area of affect warning that you can move out of.

No amount of your rationalization justifies the level of on demand burst damage a min/maxed and properly played tanky speed stacking heavy attack build can do in a battlegrounds environment.

If they want to balance the build they could either fix the fact that these builds are literally more than twice as strong on dual wield as they are on sword and board, two handed, or bow ---> by stopping the HA sets from double dipping onto the DW offhand. Or they could simply convert all the extra bonus damage from these heavy attack sets into DOT damage like they have done with all other proc sets that are correctly categorized as so.

EtTuBrutus

Let me see a video

katorga

FrankonPC wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

It's not just in BG and no cp where these stamina heavy attack builds are, i can name a few people that are running said heavy attack builds in cyro and IC, personally I have been hit by 12K+ dual wield heavies(6kish from each hand) On pretty tanky builds. I mean major protection+things like the necro ghost. And I'm sure we've all seen streams and videos of people running this heavy attack build, 1 shotting guards and sometimes players.

Something just isn't right about being able to have 35k-45k hp and still have the ability to land 12k+ hits on people.

yep, procs and health based heals are an extremely problematic issue in this game right now.

Procs used to have to be run at the cost of reduced healing. With health based heals their only weakness is eliminated.

The issue is that there are a lot of proc sets that fill this action, a lot of which can also be buffed by malacath.

Buh Buh Bingo. Health based heals. You win a cookie.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx: DOT damage and sudden burst damage are two completely different things. There is a reason they changed all proc sets to either DOT damage, or a slow avoidable animation that does burst like Selenes.

Heavy attack combo burst is not only instant burst damage, its burst damage that is fully controllable by the player unlike Selenes. When you are a 30k HP heavy armor tank moving at nearly the maximum allowable move speed due to stacking speed, the heavy attacks are like homing missles. This is not even close to the same thing as Selenes: a silly bear animation with a giant red area of affect warning that you can move out of.

No amount of your rationalization justifies the level of on demand burst damage a min/maxed and properly played tanky speed stacking heavy attack build can do in a battlegrounds environment.

If they want to balance the build they could either fix the fact that these builds are literally more than twice as strong on dual wield as they are on sword and board, two handed, or bow ---> by stopping the HA sets from double dipping onto the DW offhand. Or they could simply convert all the extra bonus damage from these heavy attack sets into DOT damage like they have done with all other proc sets that are correctly categorized as so.

"When you are a 30k HP heavy armor tank moving at nearly the maximum allowable move speed due to stacking speed, the heavy attacks are like homing missles."

You just want to melt people from a distance before they can close the gap to threaten you. You also stack speed too.

You just want buffs to your own preferred playstyle while nerfing or taking away viable options for others. You're coming across as if its unfair that dks have an ability to buff heavy attacks. Meanwhile, stamnecro is the only class that has a passive that buffs dot damage; you want more proc sets to be remade into dot proc sets... which said dots also synergize strongly with major defile. This isn't a coincidence. And because sunderflame (a set that I havn't seen you try using yourself) has been turned into a garbage tier set, therefore in your mind it should have been intended for the other heavy attack sets to become garbage sunderflame clones. You dislike a burst meta, and you want it replaced with a dot meta, which would better suit your own playstyle.

I'm also going to say this again. Most of the "slow, avoidable animations" of burst proc sets in your words are actually faster than landing a fully charged heavy. Continuing to cherry pick selenes because that particular one is a stationary proc set isn't proving your point. What about red mountain. What about sellestrix? You actually use sellistrix don't you?

You already have a build for yourself thats capable of dealing top damage in bgs 9 times out of ten, have a build thats capable of going 20 kills and 0 deaths, and all from a primarily ranged proc dot based build that doesnt have to face as much risk as a melee build. But it still isnt enough for you, your style of play needs even more support from the devs, and those damn pesky, "OP" heavy attack builds that can give you trouble need to be diminished to the point of uselessness.

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx: I have said this before and I will say it again: I have nothing against you as a person or the concept of heavy attack builds being viable. I have been playing battlegrounds with you and against you for over three years. We used to duo que together back when I played nightblade. When you constantly try to derail these threads by negatively depicting my playstyle, what you are actually doing is deflecting away from the topic of discussion.

I never posted about heavy attack builds until recently because I considered them very niche, and very creative, even if slightly over performing in the right hands of a skilled player. It's not until recently (with the addition of malacath and the buffs to Seargent's and Undaunted Infiltrator that allowed dual wield to double dip into the bonus damage) that the heavy attack build went from "overperforming but acceptable" to being "unfairly overperforming". Once it reached that threshold, I broke my silence.

I'm bringing awareness to the fact that these heavy attack sets are double dipping with dual wield, and are allowing incredibly high burst damage that completely violates Zenimax's recent balancing guidelines for proc sets and bonus burst damage.

emsuperman24

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx: I have said this before and I will say it again: I have nothing against you as a person or the concept of heavy attack builds being viable. I have been playing battlegrounds with you and against you for over three years. We used to duo que together back when I played nightblade. When you constantly try to derail these threads by negatively depicting my playstyle, what you are actually doing is deflecting away from the topic of discussion.

I never posted about heavy attack builds until recently because I considered them very niche, and very creative, even if slightly over performing in the right hands of a skilled player. It's not until recently (with the addition of malacath and the buffs to Seargent's and Undaunted Infiltrator that allowed dual wield to double dip into the bonus damage) that the heavy attack build went from "overperforming but acceptable" to being "unfairly overperforming". Once it reached that threshold, I broke my silence.

I'm bringing awareness to the fact that these heavy attack sets are double dipping with dual wield, and are allowing incredibly high burst damage that completely violates Zenimax's recent balancing guidelines for proc sets and bonus burst damage.

They are not double dipping please stop misleading people with that incorrect information.

As stated they have always and will always effect both hands. Even prior to 2017 you can look up peoples niche builds from then and see that to be the case.

Other sets as well, including the one in your title
undaunted infiltrator
Undaunted unweaver
Noble duelist
New moon
Sword dancer
Essence thief all effect each hand of the dual wield as they are two separate charged heavies.

katorga

So after all this back and forth, I really want to try this out. Is it even viable if you are not a DK?