Heavy Attacks w/ Seargent's Mail, Undaunted Infiltrator, and Dual Wield

Waffennacht

@katorga I dont see how, that 50% from DK is pretty necessary

JinxxND

katorga wrote: »

So after all this back and forth, I really want to try this out. Is it even viable if you are not a DK?

Yes other classes can run it as well and use their kit to be just as strong or stronger with different elements of their kit but it's not some 1 button a million dmg build like the OP suggests. Necro can run it with their dots and with more tankiness, nightblade can use the crit modifiers, stamsorc can use their kit with speed sustain encase crystal weapon combo, a lot of mag classes all have access to a stronger version because of light armor pen and utility with a lightning staff. It's not limited to any one class and every class has their own unique twist on it

Waffennacht

JinxxND wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

So after all this back and forth, I really want to try this out. Is it even viable if you are not a DK?

Yes other classes can run it as well and use their kit to be just as strong or stronger with different elements of their kit but it's not some 1 button a million dmg build like the OP suggests. Necro can run it with their dots and with more tankiness, nightblade can use the crit modifiers, stamsorc can use their kit with speed sustain encase crystal weapon combo, a lot of mag classes all have access to a stronger version because of light armor pen and utility with a lightning staff. It's not limited to any one class and every class has their own unique twist on it

@JinxxND you saying you would run seargent on a non DK build over other sets without the 50% damage boost from DK? Why?

JinxxND

Because like I said all the classes have something unique they bring to the table that can either make up for more then the 50% increase in damage from just heavy attacks or with survival. My main class can arguably hit harder with the crit modifier and can set off balance a lot easier but you sacrifice a lot to achieve this and it's why I don't run it on top of the counter play to spamming telegraphed heavy attacks that are blockable/dodgeable/los/cc able to punish the build

JinxxND

Stamina sorc esp this patch is another one capable of dmg because of crystal weapon which can pair with it on top of provide an armor debuff and other things in their kit that are worse the petrify the list goes on

katorga

Waffennacht wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

So after all this back and forth, I really want to try this out. Is it even viable if you are not a DK?

Yes other classes can run it as well and use their kit to be just as strong or stronger with different elements of their kit but it's not some 1 button a million dmg build like the OP suggests. Necro can run it with their dots and with more tankiness, nightblade can use the crit modifiers, stamsorc can use their kit with speed sustain encase crystal weapon combo, a lot of mag classes all have access to a stronger version because of light armor pen and utility with a lightning staff. It's not limited to any one class and every class has their own unique twist on it

@JinxxND you saying you would run seargent on a non DK build over other sets without the 50% damage boost from DK? Why?

So I kinda backed into should the original post be about Molten Armaments, not the sets.

JinxxND

katorga wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

So after all this back and forth, I really want to try this out. Is it even viable if you are not a DK?

Yes other classes can run it as well and use their kit to be just as strong or stronger with different elements of their kit but it's not some 1 button a million dmg build like the OP suggests. Necro can run it with their dots and with more tankiness, nightblade can use the crit modifiers, stamsorc can use their kit with speed sustain encase crystal weapon combo, a lot of mag classes all have access to a stronger version because of light armor pen and utility with a lightning staff. It's not limited to any one class and every class has their own unique twist on it

@JinxxND you saying you would run seargent on a non DK build over other sets without the 50% damage boost from DK? Why?

So I kinda backed into should the original post be about Molten Armaments, not the sets.

No molten armaments is fine and unique to DK, both stam and mag can use it and provides other options of builds to the class, stamdk have the option of running this instead of meta 2h d swing builds or dots with dw and leap builds. All the builds have their pros and cons

Solariken

These heavy attack modifiers are absolutely ridiculous on dual wield yes. Probably the strongest setups available right now when you factor in sustain and what you are able to accomplish with the rest of your build.

However I stopped getting upset about it a while ago, because there is a huge number of brainless damage builds that are almost certain death most of the time, especially when combined with other toxic gameplay elements like Bombard+Streak, stealth/cloak, etc.

BUT I take some comfort in the fact that if I ever lose half my fingers or develop Parkinson's I will still be competitive in ESO PvP.

Althorn

Arcanasx wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Aren´t you the same person who defended "proc-sets" a few weeks ago in another thread? And now you complain about Seargent´s, one set that isn´t even remotely as unbalanced as many other things out there (smite, sheer venom etc...)

It´s so obvious that this thread was created due to some personal issue with the set, most likely being victim to it. So ye, can´t take threads like this serious

Exactly, sabre plays bgs and is a bow using stamcro who uses brp bow (with draining shot), sheer venom and hunters venom, and holds onto goliath ult for when hes about to die. Combined with stamcro dot passives and BB major defile, this is one of the most annoying cheesiest setups you could come across. He also uses triple swift himself.

Arcanasx wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Aren´t you the same person who defended "proc-sets" a few weeks ago in another thread? And now you complain about Seargent´s, one set that isn´t even remotely as unbalanced as many other things out there (smite, sheer venom etc...)

It´s so obvious that this thread was created due to some personal issue with the set, most likely being victim to it. So ye, can´t take threads like this serious

Exactly, sabre plays bgs and is a bow using stamcro who uses brp bow (with draining shot), sheer venom and hunters venom, and holds onto goliath ult for when hes about to die. Combined with stamcro dot passives and BB major defile, this is one of the most annoying cheesiest setups you could come across. He also uses triple swift himself.

I DIED


- OdinPK

precambria

Green post but no confirmation or denial of this being a bug or intended lol... either it is or it isn't until we know there isn't much to discuss it would just be one more overpowered thing in a game filled with grievous imbalance

Firstmep

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx: I have said this before and I will say it again: I have nothing against you as a person or the concept of heavy attack builds being viable. I have been playing battlegrounds with you and against you for over three years. We used to duo que together back when I played nightblade. When you constantly try to derail these threads by negatively depicting my playstyle, what you are actually doing is deflecting away from the topic of discussion.

I never posted about heavy attack builds until recently because I considered them very niche, and very creative, even if slightly over performing in the right hands of a skilled player. It's not until recently (with the addition of malacath and the buffs to Seargent's and Undaunted Infiltrator that allowed dual wield to double dip into the bonus damage) that the heavy attack build went from "overperforming but acceptable" to being "unfairly overperforming". Once it reached that threshold, I broke my silence.

I'm bringing awareness to the fact that these heavy attack sets are double dipping with dual wield, and are allowing incredibly high burst damage that completely violates Zenimax's recent balancing guidelines for proc sets and bonus burst damage.

Honestly, I was running sergeant with stuhn before last patch and my damage was much the same as with undaunted infiltrator.
I have already mentioned this, but lightnimg heavies get the flat damage boost to every tick from sets like infallible or unweaver, and that's ranged and undodgeable.
Anyway melee heavies can miss so often due to positional desyncs, that they would need to fix that too before fiddling with sets.

Firstmep

Waffennacht wrote: »

@katorga I dont see how, that 50% from DK is pretty necessary

I ran sergeant and ui on stamplar with toppling and you can hit big numbers too, my biggest was like 18k, although on a squishy target l.
Stamplar has easy access to off balance and a stun with toppling, so while the top end dmg might not be there it's defo viable.

If heavies weren't missing so much due to desyncs I'd prob run it still.

Chesimac

Damn sounds really skillful. Must be epic to click molten armaments wearing malacath and sergeant and become a god. Probably is intended.

emsuperman24

Chesimac wrote: »

Damn sounds really skillful. Must be epic to click molten armaments wearing malacath and sergeant and become a god. Probably is intended.

This is how threads like this skew players perception and can unjustly ruin aspects of the game that aren’t necessary.

Please please put on malacath, seargeants and hit molten and see how “godly” you are. Then could you please come back and report results.

So much exaggeration in this thread it’s really unbelievable.

JinxxND

My big issue with this thread is that I realized that it's an attack on a specific player which is not cool not the sets if you removed said player and kept all the rest doing the same build or combos of the build in the current BG's OP is in there would be 0 complaint

There are a few players in the minority in specifically the BG's that the OP plays that run the sets either a combo of or the exact same thing but this whole thread is based literally off one player and the feelings of animosity, jealously, or possibly feeling his performance undermined and threatened by one player doing the build not any of the other people he regularly counters play and beat with the exact same thing or versions of it without changing his own build with actual broken mechanics like proc sets double proccing, 100% major defile uptime, basically a walking ranged medium armor multi target duroks/sloads build of old (both of which sets where nerfed to the ground) but they run a stronger version of the build even after resistances, or refuses to acknowledge the counter play against one specific player such as slotting an on demand CC (0 cc in the OP build unless you count the delayed telegraphed sellistrix proc), look into heavy armor as procs still do the same dmg due to pen values as medium armor (already running 4 proc sets venomous smite, sheer venom brp bow, sellistrix), slot more heals (uses dual wield bloodcraze w/o masters for a poor HoT with brutality pots ignoring the option to use tri pots or any healing pots with 2h rally or even SnB block to heal thru damage) etc.

Waffennacht

My thing is, there's really no way these builds can bring down @TheValkyn 's Peace Tank or Destroyer or any health based proc build.

It's gotta be kinda SoL against Sheer venom Bow builds.

It cant be better than WW

To me, from what Ive read, its on par with these or a little lacking

JinxxND

Waffennacht wrote: »

My thing is, there's really no way these builds can bring down @TheValkyn 's Peace Tank or Destroyer or any health based proc build.

It's gotta be kinda SoL against Sheer venom Bow builds.

It cant be better than WW

To me, from what Ive read, its on par with these or a little lacking

This whole thread is an attack on a single player not any build/sets in reality, the actual build/sets are seen on multiple classes and people and overall is mediocre to decent if played well but the OP has a problem as stated with one player and is attempting to go at him specifically

The hypocrisy is that he double procs an actual proc set in sheer venom off one skill on the bow which is the only weapon able todo that, and complains about dual wield which has x2 fully charged telegraphed counterable heavy attacks that can and will be boosted by any other sets for more dmg on both heavies with the skill rotation, boosting to skills with sets such as clever alch/stuhns/NMA, thief etc.which would have a more devastating effect. without having to setup a high cost ultimate, off balance then fully charged heavy attack multiple times in a small ult-off balance window like a heavy attack build

Mystikkal

I haven't been able to study this entire thread but from what I gather there is a whole lot of theory crafting that is disconnected from actual game play. Unfortunately most of the players here aren't top MMR or they haven't fought against a good heavy attack DK. So they have been unable to see how broken the build is. Sabre (and a few other high MMR players) play against this build almost nightly.

Look, Arcannax is an amazing player. He's also a good friend. But unfortunately his build is over performing in my opinion.

The problem with the build, which Sabre has pointed out, is that it gives everything: damage, mobility, defense, sustain.

Fossilize, molten weapons, flames of oblivion and corrosive are what adds to the issue.

You lose complete control of your character from fossilize. The flames of oblivion and heavy attack take you down 60% of your health.

If you block you get stammed (and he gains stam - not a good trade). And you get fossilized, so you can't block. If you roll dodge with a bow, you get fossilized and now need to break CC and get outta root - completely stammed. You can't heal through the dmg (e.g. vigor, dark deal - just too much dmg).

You shouldn't chase the DK when they are low because they have RAT, heavy armor and crazy swift. And worse comes to worse they pop corrosive (which the animation is so awful I never know if it's up -- maybe cause I'm red.green color blind).

Like I said, I respect people like decimus a lot. But EU doesn't have great players playing this build.

Sorry Arc, I still love you, and you are an amazing player, but we all know it's a little broken

Waffennacht

@Mystikkal I dont see it bursting down 50k+ health builds or over-coming 10.5k (real numbers after BS) heals.

I would love to hear your thoughts further tbh. I havent played in a year till recently and havent faced one yet, but I see a lot of thews and sheer venom type builds

Edit: Im saying heavy attack builds be good, but why specifically seargent over like 3 other builds that dont run seargent?

JinxxND

It doesn't or it should not with any proper build and game knowledge, the build Sabre is complaining about does not use flames of oblivion in heavy armor as you do not need the crit modifier and Mystikkal here another good high mmr multiclass BG player is more familiar with his old medium armor build not heavy which after fighting against the two is pretty different variation with the burst combo. Even without heavy attack sets you can amp the dmg of the total build using the same molten armaments and off balance, dropping corrosive using other defensive means ie cauterize and using leap with dual wield and heavy stat dmg sets (clever alch/stuhns/balorgh etc.) with the same heavy attack sustain oriented gameplay and play around leap with a guaranteed execute follow up because of the knockback animation on top of boosting the dot pressure from skills and direct damage of other abilities which I'm not going to go super in depth about.

This is more about going after the player not the build as there are numerous people of the top of my head doing the same build on dk's and nb's but they don't perform on the same level as the mentioned player.

That being said it is also BG's not 1v1 so it's not always as clear cut as dueling in non CP esp with an dot/proc/based attrition with 0 controlled hard CC or a build based on wearing someone resources down with higher amounts of regen/cc's build with 0 burst damage esp since right now everyone is playing with 2-3 proc sets on them at all times and hp levels constantly around 70%

If you want to counter a build like his with speed and minimal healing you should look into a extremely high burst damage build that has some form of follow up pressure or a tanky pressure/sustain based build but that excludes the rest of the BG's just to target one person so there is that

JinxxND

Honestly this thread should be named to "Nerf said player he is too strong" cause everyone else attempting the same build or variations of it does not perform like he does and not many people are trying to counter him,

If there was 0 counter play and actual broken mechanics that had 0 counters I would be on the opposite side of the fence but there is just too much counter play to any heavy attack build lightning or dual wield and it's really apparent when fighting other players with the same build and other variations of it on the same class especially, I would say it's easier and possibly more deadly on a nightblade with how tuned up the class is this patch and access to a bow proc/stealth (still very counterable and sacrifices a lot for it) or the one stamsorc I seen running a variation of the build with encase and an actual proc set doylemesh which if you want to talk about nuke proc sets that is one of them but with a really strict condition for the insta proc that's not telegraphed (which I might add is fine imo because of the requirement to proc it)

Mystikkal

Generally heavy attack builds on a DK are over-performing. There are different ways of building them, all very very strong. Again, you get a spammable (your heavy) that is stronger than any other spammable in the game... and... instead of it costing resources, you gain resources. That means you can run significantly lower sustain but still have good sustain because your "abilities " (your heavy attack) are giving you resources rather than using them.

In ESO, there are 4 aspects to a build: sustain, defense, mobility, damage.

All 4 levers generally can't be high. Most top end BG players give up defense and use mobility as their defense.

The heavy attack DK build gets all 4. They give up sustain, but they get sustain through heavy attacks.

There are also two types of damage in ESO: damage over time and burst.

To gain burst damage, you usually have to run sets that limit your up time of burst. Like clever alc, balourghs, etc. You can burst, but only every once in a while.

This DK build also has high burst built in 24/7. Again overperforming.

Remember DKs also get extra range on their melee, I think it includes heavies. So you get hit before they are even in general melee range. With the movement speed they close the gap fast. Then after they hit you, you are fossilized and then in a lot of trouble.

Jinxx has recently started running a heavy attack build, so we understand him defending it.

It's all love. The comp scene (if it ever existed) is pretty dead in ESO. I can count on two hands the number of elite BG players now. It's usually one of us on each team. The rest are generally average players (not trying to offend people, but its the reality). The build that said player runs absolutely demolishes the average players.

People are comparing the heavy attack sets to other proc sets, its all pretty irrelevant. No hunters venom or sheer venom build is killing at the speed that a good heavy attack DK does.

JinxxND

I'm actually running a proc based burst build with stats no heavy attack sets (they don't boost the nb bow proc/spammable/ultimate even the magic version with major defile) red mountain/stuhns/zaans with a 2p regen/powered 2h or sometimes I throw on malacath and drop stuhns for clever alch because of how ridiculous proc sets are this patch and how questionable malacath is but it's all burst damage with a lil pressure, I do understand exactly how heavy attack builds and how the sets run though and counter play to them

I wish there were more DK's running heavy attack sets in stead of these sheer venom hunters venom builds with counter play, right now there is about 6 of them at high mmr but one that really stands out who is mentioned here.

As for sheer venom/hunters venom both are a stronger then the old sloads with old oblivion damage even with resistances factored in which to me is crazy one of which double procs, has no cooldown and over performs with a bow and can be boosted by necro passives/pen passives/traits/mundus/debuffs/buffs and malacath. As far as killing potential if we were to pull up a log of all the total damage done in BGs and kills from heavy attacks on DKs and compared it to the dot proc sets which aren't limited to just attrition based builds and can easily be paired with insane burst and make it impossible esp in the non CP realm to recover from with the healing nerfs we would see what is really over performing

Skullstachio

There is a viable solution to this dilemma:

• Turn the heavy attack of dual-wield from a heavy attack that hits twice on full charge, into a heavy attack consisting of a 4 hit channel over 2 1/2 seconds. Similar to Tazkad the Packmaster’s “Frenzy of blows” technique. The Final hit will be the main factor damage wise, while the previous three hits will deal a percentage of the final blows damage.
  
  Example: say the damage of a fully charged heavy attack is 1335, the first three hits in this heavy attack will deal 400 damage(400.5 rounding to the nearest decimal point.) as a Direct Damage over time since it’s a channeled heavy attack, While the final hit will deal the full 1335 damage as direct damage.
  
  The following formula here, is that the first three hits will always deal 30% of the fully charged heavy attacks damage. a common ground is that it works as the stamina counterpart of a Destruction Lightning staff or even a restoration staff. Not to mention that since the final hit from this new concept for dual-wielding is considered a three-hit DDoT channel followed by one final direct Damage hit, sets like Sergeant’s Mail and other similar sets Will only affect the one hit at the end, eliminating the Double-dipping issue discussed in the OP.
  
  I know from similar tests with The knight slayer Set and a lightning staff, the oblivion damage dealt from it was only dealt at the end of the channeled heavy attack of the lightning staff. Make Dual wield have the similar pattern and effects as a Stamina Counterpart to lightning destro/resto staves and we may yet have a potential fix on our hands.
  
  [Edited for grammar correction.]

Decimus

Mystikkal wrote: »

Generally heavy attack builds on a DK are over-performing. There are different ways of building them, all very very strong. Again, you get a spammable (your heavy) that is stronger than any other spammable in the game... and... instead of it costing resources, you gain resources. That means you can run significantly lower sustain but still have good sustain because your "abilities " (your heavy attack) are giving you resources rather than using them.

In ESO, there are 4 aspects to a build: sustain, defense, mobility, damage.

All 4 levers generally can't be high. Most top end BG players give up defense and use mobility as their defense.

The heavy attack DK build gets all 4. They give up sustain, but they get sustain through heavy attacks.

There are also two types of damage in ESO: damage over time and burst.

To gain burst damage, you usually have to run sets that limit your up time of burst. Like clever alc, balourghs, etc. You can burst, but only every once in a while.

This DK build also has high burst built in 24/7. Again overperforming.

Remember DKs also get extra range on their melee, I think it includes heavies. So you get hit before they are even in general melee range. With the movement speed they close the gap fast. Then after they hit you, you are fossilized and then in a lot of trouble.

Jinxx has recently started running a heavy attack build, so we understand him defending it.

It's all love. The comp scene (if it ever existed) is pretty dead in ESO. I can count on two hands the number of elite BG players now. It's usually one of us on each team. The rest are generally average players (not trying to offend people, but its the reality). The build that said player runs absolutely demolishes the average players.

People are comparing the heavy attack sets to other proc sets, its all pretty irrelevant. No hunters venom or sheer venom build is killing at the speed that a good heavy attack DK does.

The heavy attack DK can only sustain if it can heavy attack - which is something you can't really do when outnumbered for instance, or when out of range.


Also defense of said build is pretty much the standard heavy armor tankiness, to run a heavy attack stam DK you sacrifice two 5p sets to gain damage on your heavies. These sets contribute nothing towards defense.

They also contribute almost nothing towards the damage of your actual abilities, leaving those lackluster compared to other builds. Nor can you run the most broken meta sets such as Sheer Venom on a heavy attack DK.

This leaves just the monster set that can be allocated for defense.


What you gain is consistent burst damage, but let's not pretend it doesn't come at a high cost.

Playing a very similar build on EU I can't really call it significantly stronger than multiple other setups I play and I think the BG scores I get back that idea (not saying they're bad on stam DK, just that they aren't always *better* than on ranged magplar or heavy torc draugrkin stam sorc for instance).

It's just a good build, and a different way of playing the game.

Makes me wonder how this NA DK people are upset about would do on another good build (maybe different class).

Arcanasx

Mystikkal wrote: »

I haven't been able to study this entire thread but from what I gather there is a whole lot of theory crafting that is disconnected from actual game play. Unfortunately most of the players here aren't top MMR or they haven't fought against a good heavy attack DK. So they have been unable to see how broken the build is. Sabre (and a few other high MMR players) play against this build almost nightly.

Look, Arcannax is an amazing player. He's also a good friend. But unfortunately his build is over performing in my opinion.

The problem with the build, which Sabre has pointed out, is that it gives everything: damage, mobility, defense, sustain.

Fossilize, molten weapons, flames of oblivion and corrosive are what adds to the issue.

You lose complete control of your character from fossilize. The flames of oblivion and heavy attack take you down 60% of your health.

If you block you get stammed (and he gains stam - not a good trade). And you get fossilized, so you can't block. If you roll dodge with a bow, you get fossilized and now need to break CC and get outta root - completely stammed. You can't heal through the dmg (e.g. vigor, dark deal - just too much dmg).

You shouldn't chase the DK when they are low because they have RAT, heavy armor and crazy swift. And worse comes to worse they pop corrosive (which the animation is so awful I never know if it's up -- maybe cause I'm red.green color blind).

Like I said, I respect people like decimus a lot. But EU doesn't have great players playing this build.

Sorry Arc, I still love you, and you are an amazing player, but we all know it's a little broken

"I haven't been able to study this entire thread but from what I gather there is a whole lot of theory crafting that is disconnected from actual game play."

I suggest you go back a page or two and read up on the math I did on what you can reasonably expect how much of a damage increase that you would get from sergeants. And if anything, there seems to be a lot of cherry picking and hyperbole that is disconnected from typical gameplay from people who never actually tried the set for themselves.

"The problem with the build, which Sabre has pointed out, is that it gives everything: damage, mobility, defense, sustain."

How exactly does sergeants in particular (or even my whole build) provide everything? My build has high potential burst damage for sure, but sergeants isn't the sole reason for that, just a part of the many variables that need to be added together to achieve the damage that my build is capable of. Also, that kind of damage is tied to a delayed telegraphed attack of about 1.75 seconds and conditions need to be met for that to happen. My build has mobility too, but that has nothing to do with sergeants, or heavy attack builds in general, and actually something to do with the opportunity costs of using steed mundus over other mundus options and using triple swift jewelry traits over other trait options.

In no way do I consider my build to have a great defense, 30k health in heavy armor provides a nice cushion, but otherwise I have nearly gone full damage with my sets. I dont use a shield to block with, my healing over time potential is rather low, and theres no way I can face tank more than a couple competent players unlike those wardens and necromancer backbar SnB tank-until-ult-is-ready-then-burst-types. Even SnB dks are a noticeably more tankier than me. My survivability more than anything comes from mobility and positioning, knowing when to block and never holding it for long; paying attention to what the enemy is doing, and knowing when to attack. Corrosive is decent for survivability, but its not "good" at staying alive with all the many dots that are ticking on me every second in the bg environment, if anything when corrosive saves me from dying its usually because of the battle roar passive.

The fact that you think I have good sustain as well is just coming from a lack of knowledge and experience in how the build actually works. Heavy attacking more than your average build does not easily make up for having around 800 stamina regen in bgs, especially in outnumbered fights. No competent player on a decent build dies from someone just holding left click at them. You are not taking into account the resources and precious time I have to spend to be able to set up my combos to do the damage I need to do to actually do a good kill securing burst on better players, and especially the resources I have to burn to be able to stay alive. If sustain was so good, why would I even have meditate as one of my abilities, an ability that you should understand that it cant just be used on demand without potentially being punished for it hard.

I also have no cleanse, which is a major weakness as a dedicated melee build in the ranged dot proc meta, and I have no ability to support my allies/team with healing.

I will admit that my latest build is strong for sure; when played correctly, and that it works well at what it was designed to do. But it absolutely does have its weaknesses and its counters.

"You lose complete control of your character from fossilize. The flames of oblivion and heavy attack take you down 60% of your health."

The same can be said with your streak ability, especially when you combo it after your bombards that you like to spam, where you can root them from a distance, they spend resources using a snare removal or a dodge, and then you streak them after so they have to spend more stamina breaking the cc. I havn't even used flames of oblivion since April, and those kinds of heavy attacks are easier said than done.

"If you block you get stammed (and he gains stam - not a good trade). And you get fossilized, so you can't block. If you roll dodge with a bow, you get fossilized and now need to break CC and get outta root - completely stammed. You can't heal through the dmg (e.g. vigor, dark deal - just too much dmg)."

This is hyperbole. No stamina build is going to be out of stam after one block, one cc break, and one dodge, unless you're caught with low resources. Dual wield heavy attacks take 1.75 seconds to fully charge and land, that is way more than enough time to break a fossilize cc and dodge the heavy attack. You're saying its rough to be fossilized after you dodge, this has nothing to do with sergeants or heavy attack builds, magdks do this all the time, and again, you have your own bombard into streak combo to burn their stamina, how is this much different?

"You shouldn't chase the DK when they are low because they have RAT, heavy armor and crazy swift. And worse comes to worse they pop corrosive (which the animation is so awful I never know if it's up -- maybe cause I'm red.green color blind)."

Yet still doesn't stop me from dying. You'd think stamsorcs with streak and bombard would be good for chasing and securing kills, or stacking dots that counters my hot, or that me getting stunned inside of execute range then quickly finished off with a light attack>execute ability before I can break free then block/dodge would work.

"Sorry Arc, I still love you, and you are an amazing player, but we all know it's a little broken "

That is your opinon. I'm certain more would agree that sets such as venomous smite and sheer venom are what's actually broken, or at least a lot more broken, largely do to the incredibly easy proc conditions for the high amount of autopilot fire and forget damage they deal. After all, theres a reason why you see those 2 sets far, far more often than sergeants, which requires you to build in a very particular way to get the most out of, and make sacrifices in other areas of their build that you underestimate. And I have yet to see a single player use the new "updated" sunderflame set...now why would that be? Have you seen anyone else use sunderflame against you since the patch?

Edit: I should also mention that investing into increasing the damage of my heavy attacks really does make a noticeable difference in reducing the power of my vigor and all my standard damage abilities. Almost as if it takes a large chunk of power from those abilities to instead power up and concentrate it into my delayed and telegraphed heavy attacks.

JinxxND

And speaking of classes being potentially deadlier then a DK with a heavy attack build and actual proc set (sergeant isn't a proc set as it is based on stats) Static looks to have posted the stamsorc heavy attack build I was mentioning earlier @Waffennacht showing that every class has different ways to pull off heavy attack builds with other sets not just sergeant, which has more burst damage and way more sustain.

Mystikkal

Folks keep talking about how you can dodge or block heavies. How they are easy to counter? Are we playing the same game? If I go to dodge the heavy, I will be fossilized after dodging and then need to break CC and dodge again to get outta root. Another complete stam drain.

If I go to block the heavy, it's a win for the DK and a loss for me. He gains stam, I lose it. Even if I block it, I will be petrified and heavied right after it. And the heavy will land before I break CC and dodge outta the root.

When two players are approaching each other, typically they both go to attack. It's rare that a player goes, OK, I'm going to block this guys attack and counter. That's not really how ESO works. Other games, if you block an attack, you may flinch the other player giving you an opening, etc. ESO doesn't really work that way. Watch any of the good streamer players, they aren't spamming block when they are engaging a single other player head on. The point is on those approaches, the heavy attack player with fossilize is super strong.

DK's also have built in snares, so between the snare and the movement speed on the build, the DK is literally faster than my stam sorc. all while have 30K health and heavy armor.

30K health and heavy armor is a TON of defense for the amount of dmg that the build does. I could only image having that kinda defense on a stam sorc.

comparing this build to a magic dk with heavies (which I think decimus is doing) doesn't make much sense as the build is very different. Again EU doesn't have top tier players running this build.

And I agree that venomous and sheer should be brought in line, not arguing that. The overall dmg on them are strong, but they don't come with the burst that heavy attack builds have. Just calling it like I see it man. I'm fine being outplayed in a BG, it happens. But sometimes when I die to that build, I don't think it was cause I was outplayed.

Firstmep

@Arcanasx not a lot of ppl play heavy attack builds on EU, good or bad.
I think the biggest strength of these builds come from that people don't expect the dmg or don't respect it.
You listed a lot of pros, but here are some of the cons.

On DK you have to use lightning wall to concuss and then off balance targets,

With swift,steed rat etc you get a lot of speed even in heavy armor, however you end up with a build with like 2 wpd, also lightning wall is expensive, so good luck having any reasonable uptime on igneous for major mending.

Your vigor heals will be absolute crap, and stamdks in no cp already struggle aganist the current dot heavy meta.

Yes corrosive is a thing, but you wont have it up all the time, and a lot of the times even with corrosive there are so many instances of dots on you that it really doesnt matter.

On top of all that its a melee build, you are putting yourself at a much higher risk and on certain maps good luck.

Id still argue that things like sheer venom, venomous etc are much better(and its kinda evidenced by how many ppl use them vs melee heavy attack builds), just due to the sheer (pun intended) safety you get from playing from ranged.

Thing with these kind of melee heavy builds is that you really put all your eggs in one basket, if you fail to kill your opponent during off balance window you really dont have a lot else going for you in the build.

Also its a pure single target melee, non nightblade build.

Cronopoly

I was excited like many to try some of the new Sets etc. but I don't feel comfortable building anything right now as everything decent has been getting Nerfed Extremely fast and hard. Definitely not crafting any Purple or Gold Jewelry, oh hell no. 🤨

P.S. This 6 weeks of PVP is tough especially if you don't like IC. Right now it's not even competitive on NA PC. One realm going to be 30k ahead... With Cyr PVP being what I love most, I'm thinking of just gathering mats for a bit until I figure out what to do with my gaming time... What's on the other side of the fence 🤔

No you cannot have it. 😛