ToS Update - Clarification needed

joerginger

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544777/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-6#latest

But for the updated TOS you would have needed to read them. They appeared alongside the patch download and you need to scroll down to agree with them, otherwise you can't play anymore.

Dusk_Coven

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

I hate to say it, but if you're afraid of these TOS changes, maybe look at your own interactions. Yes, I realize people say all kinds of things about me on these forums. Most of them are exaggerated, and/or hearsay. I'm sure there are going to be comments about how this person "deserved" to be harassed.

If you agree that it's ok to harass people who "deserve" it... I'm going out on a limb here to say that's a problem.

This is the same behavior with all exploitation and other TOS violations. They will make any excuse to keep the exploit, or keep what they got from the exploit, or oppose any action against the violation.

Dusk_Coven

CaiWenji wrote: »

And what about the pie you throw before you kill someone for that one event. Seems likes mixed messages.

With the pie achievement, the intent might possibly have been that you theoretically make it harder to defeat the person by wasting time throwing a pie and keeping the pie effect active.

But overall the issue of mixed messages is really prevalent. The whole Imperial City and stealing tel var from others is a mixed message. If a group is going round and round collecting tel var, wouldn't they be an obvious and logical target for repeated attacks? Because there's where there's a huge chunk of tel var? And the core of IC mechanics is stealing tel var from others?
I'm sure people will justify repeatedly targeting that group to steal their tel var. And then the other group is going to start calling it griefing. I wouldn't put it past players to pretend to be victims just to get an advantage.

So now is every group going to have a streamer for "protection" so they can claim stream sniping? Maybe everyone will start streaming when they solo in open world PvP?

Just shut down open world PvP and completely turn off the ability to exploit once and for all.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

show previous quotes

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

I hate to say it, but if you're afraid of these TOS changes, maybe look at your own interactions. Yes, I realize people say all kinds of things about me on these forums. Most of them are exaggerated, and/or hearsay. I'm sure there are going to be comments about how this person "deserved" to be harassed.

If you agree that it's ok to harass people who "deserve" it... I'm going out on a limb here to say that's a problem.

This is the same behavior with all exploitation and other TOS violations. They will make any excuse to keep the exploit, or keep what they got from the exploit, or oppose any action against the violation.

So... what does a player have to gain by harassing someone out of game? Because I've seen harassment out in PvE based on PvP, things that go beyond teabagging/ganking. This is not the same as an exploit. This is ZOS having the ability to remove people who cause harm to others.

VaranisArano

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

show previous quotes

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

I hate to say it, but if you're afraid of these TOS changes, maybe look at your own interactions. Yes, I realize people say all kinds of things about me on these forums. Most of them are exaggerated, and/or hearsay. I'm sure there are going to be comments about how this person "deserved" to be harassed.

If you agree that it's ok to harass people who "deserve" it... I'm going out on a limb here to say that's a problem.

This is the same behavior with all exploitation and other TOS violations. They will make any excuse to keep the exploit, or keep what they got from the exploit, or oppose any action against the violation.

So... what does a player have to gain by harassing someone out of game? Because I've seen harassment out in PvE based on PvP, things that go beyond teabagging/ganking. This is not the same as an exploit. This is ZOS having the ability to remove people who cause harm to others.

They always had that ability. Your example could have been actioned under harassment if ZOS wanted to. Heck, ZOS has punished people for repeatedly bothering people by throwing mudballs at outfit stations.

This doesn't give them new power; it just makes that power a little clearer. (Not clear enough, IMO.)

Edited: after further consideration, it does give players a little more power to tell ZOS "your TOS says this. You have to protect me." But practically speaking, ZOS still won't discuss disciplinary action, so YMMV on whether it'll make a difference.

CaffeinatedMayhem

VaranisArano wrote: »

They always had that ability. Your example could have been actioned under harassment if ZOS wanted to. Heck, ZOS has punished people for repeatedly bothering people by throwing mudballs at outfit stations.

This doesn't give them new power; it just makes that power a little clearer. (Not clear enough, IMO.)

When did ZOS do that? I still get mudballed (mostly on my Argonian) on a regular basis.

Edit: well. I hope it will make a difference, especially since I saw someone get doxxed in Cyro zone chat recently.

VaranisArano

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

show previous quotes

VaranisArano wrote: »

They always had that ability. Your example could have been actioned under harassment if ZOS wanted to. Heck, ZOS has punished people for repeatedly bothering people by throwing mudballs at outfit stations.

This doesn't give them new power; it just makes that power a little clearer. (Not clear enough, IMO.)

When did ZOS do that? I still get mudballed (mostly on my Argonian) on a regular basis.

I'll have to fact-check myself. Yay for deep-diving into the forums for ZOS quotes!

In the meantime, here's a reddit post where someone got a warning for repeated mudding:https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ix8f0/psa_mud_balls_can_be_considered_harassment/

Quote on mudballing as griefing:

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ahnastashia wrote: »

I've seen a few in game as well, but not as many as I had expected to see (prior to knowing the outrageous overprice of them). I recently got the mud ball memento... muahahhahah mud balls for every elk rider I can catch!!!! Mud balls of my discontent.. and ridicule..

While we assume you're kidding, we want to make it clear that though we understand your feelings regarding the cost of the elk mount, taking it out on other players is not acceptable. This can be considered griefing which can lead to disciplinary action against your game account.

CaffeinatedMayhem

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'll have to fact-check myself. Yay for deep-diving into the forums for ZOS quotes!

In the meantime, here's a reddit post where someone got a warning for repeated mudding:https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ix8f0/psa_mud_balls_can_be_considered_harassment/

Quote on mudballing as griefing:

show previous quotes

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

Ahnastashia wrote: »

I've seen a few in game as well, but not as many as I had expected to see (prior to knowing the outrageous overprice of them). I recently got the mud ball memento... muahahhahah mud balls for every elk rider I can catch!!!! Mud balls of my discontent.. and ridicule..

While we assume you're kidding, we want to make it clear that though we understand your feelings regarding the cost of the elk mount, taking it out on other players is not acceptable. This can be considered griefing which can lead to disciplinary action against your game account.

Huh, well good on ZOS for actually doing something. Thanks!

Cryptical

Looks to me like spawn camping in the districts (like what just happened to me) or camping quest points (like what happened to me 15 minutes ago) might now be frowned upon as intentionally grieving someone, resulting in fewer and fewer pvp participants.

Maybe the long downward slope of pvp participation has finally reached rock bottom. Maybe it has hit a point where the decision makers are tired of the toxic gankers and obnoxious “git gud” people giving a bad no-fun experience to the pve people that pay the bills.

Time to learn some sportsmanship, pvp toxins.

Edit few minutes later: maybe zerging someone from behind while they are in combat - like what just happened to me - will get the side eye.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Cryptical wrote: »

Looks to me like spawn camping in the districts (like what just happened to me) or camping quest points (like what happened to me 15 minutes ago) might now be frowned upon as intentionally grieving someone, resulting in fewer and fewer pvp participants.

Maybe the long downward slope of pvp participation has finally reached rock bottom. Maybe it has hit a point where the decision makers are tired of the toxic gankers and obnoxious “git gud” people giving a bad no-fun experience to the pve people that pay the bills.

Time to learn some sportsmanship, pvp toxins.

Edit few minutes later: maybe zerging someone from behind while they are in combat - like what just happened to me - will get the side eye.

What counts as spawn camping? Sniping people from EP's spawn point in memorial (even though you can easily complete the quest and kill the boss out of range) or DC sniping a quest target from their spawn point in Elven Gardens? How about AD snipers killing EP entering the sewers in Memorial from their base? (tho it is avoidable if you know how)

I agree that zerging solo players down is bad sportsmanship, but there's no way to prevent it from happening in IC or Cyro. Same with AP farmers who target solo players while they are taking a resource back and fighting 2-6 guards. But again, there is no way to enforce good sportmanship in ESO PvP. In any "open world" PvP scenario really.

pauld1_ESO

Already got threatened by someone I killed and stood over crouched, not even tea bagging just crouched there stealthed. Said he was reporting me for teabagging and to enjoy my ban lol. smh.

MrGarlic

Ackwalan wrote: »

They also want access to your twitch and facebook accounts to determine if you were doing something wrong. The more I review this, the more intrusive it seems.

No, they can't do that.

But they could use metadata from a complainant's Twitch or Facebook against you if the complainant allows them to.

Cryptical

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

show previous quotes

Cryptical wrote: »

Looks to me like spawn camping in the districts (like what just happened to me) or camping quest points (like what happened to me 15 minutes ago) might now be frowned upon as intentionally grieving someone, resulting in fewer and fewer pvp participants.

Maybe the long downward slope of pvp participation has finally reached rock bottom. Maybe it has hit a point where the decision makers are tired of the toxic gankers and obnoxious “git gud” people giving a bad no-fun experience to the pve people that pay the bills.

Time to learn some sportsmanship, pvp toxins.

Edit few minutes later: maybe zerging someone from behind while they are in combat - like what just happened to me - will get the side eye.

What counts as spawn camping? Sniping people from EP's spawn point in memorial (even though you can easily complete the quest and kill the boss out of range) or DC sniping a quest target from their spawn point in Elven Gardens? How about AD snipers killing EP entering the sewers in Memorial from their base? (tho it is avoidable if you know how)

I agree that zerging solo players down is bad sportsmanship, but there's no way to prevent it from happening in IC or Cyro. Same with AP farmers who target solo players while they are taking a resource back and fighting 2-6 guards. But again, there is no way to enforce good sportmanship in ESO PvP. In any "open world" PvP scenario really.

Spawn camping is not a difficult thing to figure out. It is camping where an enemy spawns into an area.

Sitting inside that tower during a Cyrodiil event, killing people as they spawn into the area, handing them a death before they exit the load screen.

Same thing inside the quest buildings.

And in the imperial districts, camping the spawn points where people come up from the base, jumping on them as they are leaving the spawn platforms.

And in the imperial districts, camping the quest locations that are known to be a required spot. Such as the digging skeletons - if you are seen near one then it doesn’t take a genius to expect you will be visiting the rest. Such as the ballistas you need to set on fire, or the requirement to destroy that specific forge. Such as the quest requirement to visit that specific ritual brazier.

Spawn camping and quest point camping are not complicated things. I’m not sure if you intended to blur the common definition by trying to include people acting from spawn platforms, but ‘spawn camping’ has always been when someone is camping a spawn point to kill people when they cannot respond.

VaranisArano

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

show previous quotes

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'll have to fact-check myself. Yay for deep-diving into the forums for ZOS quotes!

In the meantime, here's a reddit post where someone got a warning for repeated mudding:https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ix8f0/psa_mud_balls_can_be_considered_harassment/

Quote on mudballing as griefing:

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

Ahnastashia wrote: »

I've seen a few in game as well, but not as many as I had expected to see (prior to knowing the outrageous overprice of them). I recently got the mud ball memento... muahahhahah mud balls for every elk rider I can catch!!!! Mud balls of my discontent.. and ridicule..

While we assume you're kidding, we want to make it clear that though we understand your feelings regarding the cost of the elk mount, taking it out on other players is not acceptable. This can be considered griefing which can lead to disciplinary action against your game account.

Huh, well good on ZOS for actually doing something. Thanks!

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out whether I'm correctly remembering if ZOS punished folks for mudballing at outfit stations or if I'm conflating that with a 2014 incident of people healing at dye stations. Or possibly the incident where people could mess up duels by throwing mudballs which, by ZOS' coding-logic, meant they could heal the duelers. Unfortunately the search system is being finicky all of a sudden.

But either way, ZOS does seem to regard mudballing as reportable as either griefing or harassment. So if it bothers you, go right ahead and report it.
That's also the advice given here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517147/the-player-rper-issue-with-the-mudball-snowball-memento-and-harassment-of-rpers/p1


Though in things I learned today, back in 2014 when a bug gave combat pets collision, actually blocking access to stuff was considered griefing. That has since been fixed, but still, its very interesting.

ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »

To answer the OP's initial question, yes this is a reportable offense, as doing this intentionally is considered griefing. As others in this thread have pointed out, roll-dodging allows you to move through sorcerer pets. It's also worth noting that these pets having collision is something that will be fixed soon.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Cryptical wrote: »

Spawn camping and quest point camping are not complicated things. I’m not sure if you intended to blur the common definition by trying to include people acting from spawn platforms, but ‘spawn camping’ has always been when someone is camping a spawn point to kill people when they cannot respond.

Huh, TIL you can access something that allows you to kill players literally at the gate in Cyro. I'm an alt-pather and never found a way to access anything that would allow this. So forgive me for not knowing "that tower in Cyro"

Also, "spwan camping" is a little broad to include when you jump down from a platform in IC. The Sanctuary buff should be applied any time you come through a door (yes we know this fails sometimes) which means you can SPAWN safely, almost guaranteed. I don't consider that "spawn" camping. You can spawn just fine, except if there's a lot of lag, mostly in the sewers.Again, how is ZOS to police this? Yes, it's bad sportsmanship, but it's in no way enforceable unless it's a repeated, targeted offense and even then nothing will likely be done.

I'd love it if the devs fixed DC's elven spawn so they can't stand on top of that one ballista and kill people, but that's been done for years, well known, nothing fixed.
IIRC, during year 1 it was possible for other alliances to literally spawn camp the trap door to the sewers, there was no sanctuary buff, and streak was a lot longer, or pull up with chains etc. The sanctuary buff was instituted then. I know there have been some changes to the literal spawn locations to ensure spawn camping isn't really even possible in IC, but I also know I've come through doors in the sewers and been dead when the load screen finally went away. Shouldn't be possible but it still happens sometimes.

Orange_fire_dragon

yes, I am now going to start streaming and I will be immortal because I cannot be killed, not because I am good at the game but because I will point at players trying to fight back or who dare to even look at my general direction saying 'you are banned! and you are getting banned! and you definitely are banned! and f that guy over there especially, banned!' (this also applies to pve bosses)

and whenever I do dungeons, anytime someone pulls less than 35k dps for any reason, I will report them for griefing on purpose because they are hindering my gameplay

what a great motion from ZOS truly, 10/10 would read new TOS again

Canned_Apples

Should I start streaming so I can't get killed in IC?

Davadin

what the heck is "stream sniping"?

Eraldus

Easy.

Don't be a d*** and feign ignorance about it, and you won't have nothing to fear.

Unless you're roleplaying as a d***... but then ZOS can say they roleplay as a Banomancer, who hunts everyone that is a d*** to others.

Sylvermynx

Davadin wrote: »

what the heck is "stream sniping"?

Apparently, from what I read earlier, watching a live streamer in pvp, then going to where that live streamer is and doing a number on him/her.

I wouldn't know from experience; I don't pvp, I don't watch streamers, and well.... I'll just leave it at that. Some folks are WAY too trigger happy around here lately.

ItsJustHashtag

They won’t clarify anything. The vague wording and lack of explanation leaves this so open to cater to streamers over the average player.

Average player gets sexually harassed for months and months and reports and reports and replies to the email all for nothing to happen.

Streamer gets beat down in pvp one day and within 48 hours the person beating them downs account is suspended/banned.


Preferential treatment is big in eso because of the weir relationship ZOS has built with its stream team, larger streamers, and class reps.


Streamers have been getting people banned prior to this by communicating with a ZOS employee via discord or friendship.

Nothing knew here just now they have it as a rule.

You gotta be pretty unintelligent to even get caught stream sniping in the first place.

Blacknight841

I wouldn't worry about it too much. They don't even enforce the previous TOS, so I doubt this would be any different. I could log in the game right now and find at leas 100 people violating the TOS. They were there this morning and they will be there tomorrow. I cannot fathom they have the capability to pull data from your device, when they cannot even manage the data on their own servers.

HalvarIronfist

Liam12548 wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

If I kill a player and play emotes or crouch on their body, is that considered "humiliation"?

It's unfortunate that we now have to ask for clarification on what is "acceptable" in pvp and what isn't, but it seems we have somehow gotten to this point.

I agree with the doxxing change. That should not be tolerated.

But jesus h christ.. this is an M rated game.. Adults should be able to handle being "griefed" or "humiliated" in a bloody video game.. But that is the world we are living in today.

Nord_Raseri

Intha1313 wrote: »

Didn't the EU make that kinda thing a no no. Didn't Google or MS get egg on face a while back?

Same in a few states. It says if you don't want them to have your data, you can request they delete it as per state law. But of course if you follow the link, the only option they give is "delete personal info AND account"...

JKorr

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

I'm assuming this is why they want access to peoples Twitch and FB? To be able to see active users/viewing history to support said sniping?

Or possibly find the real rocket scientists who advertise and/or brag about what they're doing. People have posted on the forum that they've seen people bragging how they are using exploit x and how others can too. Or when groups/ guilds organize or plan idiotic crap to harass players and try to pass it off as a "joke".

SydneyGrey

So it looks like any random streamer can get anyone banned who fights them, regardless of whether that person was actually watching their stream or not, or even knew who the streamer was.

I HOPE ZOS will not ban people unless they have real solid proof that player was watching that particular streamer on Twitch at that exact moment he fought the other player. A whole lot of innocent people will be banned otherwise.

Honestly, if you stream yourself playing live on the internet, you have to expect that some people will show up to engage you. I'd never do it, but some people would. If you don't like it, don't stream yourself playing.

I hope ZOS makes a statement that clarifies things.

FatherDelve

So the outcome will be:

a) every single killed entiteld streamer will send tickets for stream sniping
b) everyone killed or ganked in Cyro will do the same
c) the moment someone gets tbagged a ticket will go out.

I think its great that the TOS got added with Anti Doxxing Stuff, and "real" stuff like massive harassments ala "go, kill yourself".

But we all know the outcome of that changed TOS.

And especially that Streamer thing will cause alot of trouble. You kill them a few times, they and their fanboy base will send mass reports for stream sniping. Will ZOS watch at their VOD's ? Can I start my stream and ask mom to watch as only viewer, so I get my personal safespace too ?

I guess this TOS Change has a good part, aka Doxxing etc. But giving now everyone the chance to report you for more stuff they are already doing, that will cause ZOS way more trouble then they already have.

E-Zekiel

TL;DR don't be a ***. If you have to ask, you're probably being a ***.

/thread

Dusk_Coven

16BitForestCat wrote: »

So... what does a player have to gain by harassing someone out of game?

The experience of harassing others. It's not a PvP or PvE thing. It's everywhere people can find a way to harass/grief and argue that it's not a TOS violation.

Gythral

Just ban streaming & stop making grief/harrasment items/emotes (both game & crownstore)

END!