ToS Update - Clarification needed

React

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

If I kill a player and play emotes or crouch on their body, is that considered "humiliation"?

It's unfortunate that we now have to ask for clarification on what is "acceptable" in pvp and what isn't, but it seems we have somehow gotten to this point.

CaiWenji

And what about the pie you throw before you kill someone for that one event. Seems likes mixed messages.

Ackwalan

They also want access to your twitch and facebook accounts to determine if you were doing something wrong. The more I review this, the more intrusive it seems.

TequilaFire

The problem with TOS is it leaves things open so it is actually a Mod's interpretation of the TOS that gets applied.

MJallday

Unfortunately you have no choice but to agree with the TOS in order to Play the game

Even debating the TOS will probably result in a shown down thread.

TineaCruris

Ackwalan wrote: »

They also want access to your twitch and facebook accounts to determine if you were doing something wrong. The more I review this, the more intrusive it seems.

Jokes on them. I'm not on social media. (I consider twitch and discord to be social media too as they are data mining services selling your user history for profits)

Ackwalan

Here's a strawman scenario.

During an hour long fight over the last EMP Keep, you killed streamer FancyPants 3 times. According to your facebook you have donated to the "Give puppies a home" foundation multiple time. Streamer FancyPants is an advocate for "Give kittens a home" and speaks often of this during streams. You are clearly in violation of ours terms of conduct and have been warn. Any further warning and your account can be suspended.

As I said, this is a strawman scenario, maybe.

React

Ackwalan wrote: »

Here's a strawman scenario.

During an hour long fight over the last EMP Keep, you killed streamer FancyPants 3 times. According to your facebook you have donated to the "Give puppies a home" foundation multiple time. Streamer FancyPants is an advocate for "Give kittens a home" and speaks often of this during streams. You are clearly in violation of ours terms of conduct and have been warn. Any further warning and your account can be suspended.

As I said, this is a strawman scenario, maybe.

Or you kill streamerman957 and he says "this guy is stream sniping". Do you get banned?

Ackwalan

Liam12548 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Here's a strawman scenario.

During an hour long fight over the last EMP Keep, you killed streamer FancyPants 3 times. According to your facebook you have donated to the "Give puppies a home" foundation multiple time. Streamer FancyPants is an advocate for "Give kittens a home" and speaks often of this during streams. You are clearly in violation of ours terms of conduct and have been warn. Any further warning and your account can be suspended.

As I said, this is a strawman scenario, maybe.

Or you kill streamerman957 and he says "this guy is stream sniping". Do you get banned?

It's more interesting to read wrapped around a story, but yes, basically that's what I was saying. Any popular streamer can petition to get some "nobody" banned.

x48rph

MJallday wrote: »

Unfortunately you have no choice but to agree with the TOS in order to Play the game

Even debating the TOS will probably result in a shown down thread.

And it's nice how they can up and change them whenever they want after they've taken your money and your only option is to agree or stop playing and basically forfeit the money

x48rph

Ackwalan wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Here's a strawman scenario.

During an hour long fight over the last EMP Keep, you killed streamer FancyPants 3 times. According to your facebook you have donated to the "Give puppies a home" foundation multiple time. Streamer FancyPants is an advocate for "Give kittens a home" and speaks often of this during streams. You are clearly in violation of ours terms of conduct and have been warn. Any further warning and your account can be suspended.

As I said, this is a strawman scenario, maybe.

Or you kill streamerman957 and he says "this guy is stream sniping". Do you get banned?

It's more interesting to read wrapped around a story, but yes, basically that's what I was saying. Any popular streamer can petition to get some "nobody" banned.

All the more reason to not link your accounts. If you let them access your twitch data and then they look and see you were watching said stream when the accusation was made, whelp, there you go

TequilaFire

Just make another Twitch account and don't link it is what people that actually abused this will do.
Meantime the average player is hassled.

Jayman1000

Ackwalan wrote: »

They also want access to your twitch and facebook accounts to determine if you were doing something wrong. The more I review this, the more intrusive it seems.

What do you mean "access to"? what exactly does this mean?

Ackwalan

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

They also want access to your twitch and facebook accounts to determine if you were doing something wrong. The more I review this, the more intrusive it seems.

What do you mean "access to"? what exactly does this mean?

From today's patch notes.

--Personal information we may collect from your account and the situations in which we may use it such as for administrative, legal, advertisement, anti-cheat, or contest reasons.
--Personal information we may collect from third parties such as Stadia, Steam, Twitch, Xbox, PSN, Facebook, etc.

George OrWell's 1984 should be required reading.

actosh

In Imperial City or Cyro i try to kill whoever is there. If u start banning ppl for doing pvp(i dont care if that guy runs into me 20 times), maybe get rid of your performance issues and delete pvp as a whole out of eso.

Sephyr

The only logical reason I can think of why they're including the Facebook thing is because of their new streaming service. Aside from that, their wording sounds like they can police you on what you can say OUTSIDE of the forum.

xaraan

The stream sniping thing is interesting. It's a pretty cheesy thing to do and definitely trolly, but something about it seems odd. I guess the whole thing about your social media will let them verify if you were watching something and not just take a streamers word that someone is sniping them. Because in open world sometimes you are in the same areas and tend to hang in that spot and I've seen people just assume they are getting sniped b/c they ran into the same person over and over (when it's happened to me not streaming - it just happens sometimes). It should definitely be a 100% proof case to ban someone for sniping, no question they did it at all type thing. I also think false reporting should be treated as griefing as well.

Intha1313

Didn't the EU make that kinda thing a no no. Didn't Google or MS get egg on face a while back?

Texecutioner187

xaraan wrote: »

The stream sniping thing is interesting. It's a pretty cheesy thing to do and definitely trolly, but something about it seems odd. I guess the whole thing about your social media will let them verify if you were watching something and not just take a streamers word that someone is sniping them. Because in open world sometimes you are in the same areas and tend to hang in that spot and I've seen people just assume they are getting sniped b/c they ran into the same person over and over (when it's happened to me not streaming - it just happens sometimes). It should definitely be a 100% proof case to ban someone for sniping, no question they did it at all type thing. I also think false reporting should be treated as griefing as well.

Pardon me for being extremely ignorant, but what is "stream sniping"?

Lord-Otto

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The stream sniping thing is interesting. It's a pretty cheesy thing to do and definitely trolly, but something about it seems odd. I guess the whole thing about your social media will let them verify if you were watching something and not just take a streamers word that someone is sniping them. Because in open world sometimes you are in the same areas and tend to hang in that spot and I've seen people just assume they are getting sniped b/c they ran into the same person over and over (when it's happened to me not streaming - it just happens sometimes). It should definitely be a 100% proof case to ban someone for sniping, no question they did it at all type thing. I also think false reporting should be treated as griefing as well.

Pardon me for being extremely ignorant, but what is "stream sniping"?

You watch a streamer's stream and see where he/she is and then kill the streamer.
It's annoying to the streamer, but when you put your screen open to the public, you gotta expect this.

preevious

Liam12548 wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

If I kill a player and play emotes or crouch on their body, is that considered "humiliation"?

It's unfortunate that we now have to ask for clarification on what is "acceptable" in pvp and what isn't, but it seems we have somehow gotten to this point.

regarding to your questions :

1) If you chain kill the same quester : IMO, that's not nice and I sure wouldn't do it, but it's not griefing. It's a PvP zone, there are risks involved. You're in the clear.

2) If you teabag someone (let's not hide it under harmless words .. this is what you describe) : IMO, that's not nice, that's despicable, childish and it's sure as hell is humiliation and griefing. Maybe a bit of empathy would be a nice thing to acquire, in that case.

Again, it's only my humble opinion.

React

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The stream sniping thing is interesting. It's a pretty cheesy thing to do and definitely trolly, but something about it seems odd. I guess the whole thing about your social media will let them verify if you were watching something and not just take a streamers word that someone is sniping them. Because in open world sometimes you are in the same areas and tend to hang in that spot and I've seen people just assume they are getting sniped b/c they ran into the same person over and over (when it's happened to me not streaming - it just happens sometimes). It should definitely be a 100% proof case to ban someone for sniping, no question they did it at all type thing. I also think false reporting should be treated as griefing as well.

Pardon me for being extremely ignorant, but what is "stream sniping"?

Using a twitch or youtube streamer's live stream to actively seek them out and harass/ruin their game/streaming experience.

While this is definitely not acceptable behavior, I'm worried about how zenimax will try to go about banning those suspected of it. Like someone said above, there needs to be UNDENIABLE PROOF if you're going to ban a player for killing another player in pvp. Whispers, twitch chat logs, extreme repetition (killing the same person 20+ times in a stream, etc).

I have personally killed streamers 1v1 or outnumbered in pvp only to have them accuse me of stream sniping, when I in fact was not stream sniping them. If my account is going to be at risk for participating in pvp as I normally do, why would I continue playing/spending money on the game?

React

preevious wrote: »

2) If you teabag someone (let's not hide it under harmless words .. this is what you describe) : IMO, that's not nice, that's despicable, childish and it's sure as hell is humiliation and griefing. Maybe a bit of empathy would be a nice thing to acquire, in that case.

And if zenimax wants to outlaw that sort of behavior and begin banning players for it, fine. But if they do choose to go this route, they better ban EVERYONE that displays this behavior. I know that nearly every time I die outnumbered, I get "bagged" by one or more of the players involved in killing me. There can't be any selectivism with these bans; if you ban even one player who does it, you better ban every player who is reported with proof.

Texecutioner187

I'm assuming this is why they want access to peoples Twitch and FB? To be able to see active users/viewing history to support said sniping?

VaranisArano

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

pod88kk

So if someone classifies themselves as a "streamer" with one viewer and accuse us of stream sniping if they keep returning to the same resource in Cyro and we keep killing them does that mean we'll get banned?

If so that's utterly ridiculous

Texecutioner187

Where are these patch notes?

Sephyr

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

There's also that Sad Violin one as well. I agree, though. Pretty inconsistent and it's sending mixed messages on what their expectations of acceptable behaviors are (aside from the given). I don't think just doing one emote every once in a while would be considered harassment, but given how vague wording is--people handling the ticket will act on how ever they interpret the wording. While I'm glad they're trying to do something about it, I'm worried about the folks that do /sweep when someone turns into a pile of ash.

Sephyr

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes?

Posted it in the other thread, but for good measure;
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544777/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-6#latest

scorpius2k1

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes?

Under the "Patch Notes" section of the site, at the top. Then under that section, the most recent notes are stickied at the top. Hard to miss.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

Lord-Otto

Sephyr wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

There's also that Sad Violin one as well. I agree, though. Pretty inconsistent and it's sending mixed messages on what their expectations of acceptable behaviors are (aside from the given). I don't think just doing one emote every once in a while would be considered harassment, but given how vague wording is--people handling the ticket will act on how ever they interpret the wording. While I'm glad they're trying to do something about it, I'm worried about the folks that do /sweep when someone turns into a pile of ash.

Emotes are excluded from punishment. They are indeed now the only "legal" way to humiliate other players. So get yourself those emotes!
BUY CROWNS!