ToS Update - Clarification needed

Texecutioner187

scorpius2k1 wrote: »

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Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes?

Under the "Patch Notes" section of the site, at the top. Then under that section, the most recent notes are stickied at the top. Hard to miss.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

Right, I completely blanked when I checked that section because I saw the TOS update on console(because I had to accept it again), but didn't see a specific console patch notes. I looked right past the PC patch notes. Thanks for reminding me to read and re-read before asking stupid questions lol

scorpius2k1

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

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scorpius2k1 wrote: »

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes?

Under the "Patch Notes" section of the site, at the top. Then under that section, the most recent notes are stickied at the top. Hard to miss.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

Right, I completely blanked when I checked that section because I saw the TOS update on console(because I had to accept it again), but didn't see a specific console patch notes. I looked right past the PC patch notes. Thanks for reminding me to read and re-read before asking stupid questions lol

Nah, no worries and not my intention. I can totally relate and things like that have happened to me here as well. I figured it would be wiser to just link you to the main site that way you can have the navigation from the top down, for future reference. IMHO, the ESO forums are quite the conundrum to find and navigate to even the most basic information sometimes.

Sephyr

Lord-Otto wrote: »

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Sephyr wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

There's also that Sad Violin one as well. I agree, though. Pretty inconsistent and it's sending mixed messages on what their expectations of acceptable behaviors are (aside from the given). I don't think just doing one emote every once in a while would be considered harassment, but given how vague wording is--people handling the ticket will act on how ever they interpret the wording. While I'm glad they're trying to do something about it, I'm worried about the folks that do /sweep when someone turns into a pile of ash.

Emotes are excluded from punishment. They are indeed now the only "legal" way to humiliate other players. So get yourself those emotes!
BUY CROWNS!

So I can still have my PvP funerals with 'professional mourners' for those afk dead guys then! Awesome!

Lord-Otto

Sephyr wrote: »

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Lord-Otto wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

There's also that Sad Violin one as well. I agree, though. Pretty inconsistent and it's sending mixed messages on what their expectations of acceptable behaviors are (aside from the given). I don't think just doing one emote every once in a while would be considered harassment, but given how vague wording is--people handling the ticket will act on how ever they interpret the wording. While I'm glad they're trying to do something about it, I'm worried about the folks that do /sweep when someone turns into a pile of ash.

Emotes are excluded from punishment. They are indeed now the only "legal" way to humiliate other players. So get yourself those emotes!
BUY CROWNS!

So I can still have my PvP funerals with 'professional mourners' for those afk dead guys then! Awesome!

(UwU)

Recremen

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

@VaranisArano

This is very insightful, but I want to be cheeky and point out that 99% of the time you won't be able to actually use an emote in PvP, because you're in combat.

scorpius2k1

Recremen wrote: »

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VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

@VaranisArano

This is very insightful, but I want to be cheeky and point out that 99% of the time you won't be able to actually use an emote in PvP, because you're in combat.

Agreed.

Recremen

I understand people being suspicious about enforcement consistency/data access, but let's be realistic here for a second. They aren't out to get you. They aren't out to screw you over. They're trying to make you not be an *** to each other. If you're worried about them coming after you for """using the crouch emote""", then maybe you already know what the problem is and can see the way to resolve it.

VaranisArano

Recremen wrote: »

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VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

@VaranisArano

This is very insightful, but I want to be cheeky and point out that 99% of the time you won't be able to actually use an emote in PvP, because you're in combat.

Little did we know that the "stuck in combat" bug was there to protect our hurt feelings from mean emotes!

zaria

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

I'm assuming this is why they want access to peoples Twitch and FB? To be able to see active users/viewing history to support said sniping?

How the ******* can they get access to your Facebook profile?
Also they have all the game data, it should be much more relevant into that sort of person you are.
Now that might be an very good personal profiling, no not active or good you are.
But if you are an sosiopat or like to help others or are you an leader.

Honestly I see this is just an cover all their legal corners approach in crazy times, some might sue them for emotional damage getting kicked as fake tank from an dungeon.
Kind of how Bethesta owned all mods made with the creation tools, just so they could not be sued if they added features from an mod into an DLC.

VaranisArano

Recremen wrote: »

They're trying to make you not be an *** to each other. If you're worried about them coming after you for """using the crouch emote""", then maybe you already know what the problem is and can see the way to resolve it.

I get that. But then I look at ZOS selling the /kissthis emote with the marketing copy "When words aren't strong enough to express your disdain, encourage them all to "Kiss this!"

To be honest, I'd rather the TOS just said "this includes teabagging" upfront. Boundaries are often a very good thing. Unclear boundaries that are unevenly enforced are frustrating.

OlumoGarbag

As the official class rep for trolling and griefing i hereby declare that running low dps in dungeons is considered griefing and zerging people with more than one proc set on, is considered harassment. This decision is final.

Sephyr

Lord-Otto wrote: »

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Sephyr wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

There's also that Sad Violin one as well. I agree, though. Pretty inconsistent and it's sending mixed messages on what their expectations of acceptable behaviors are (aside from the given). I don't think just doing one emote every once in a while would be considered harassment, but given how vague wording is--people handling the ticket will act on how ever they interpret the wording. While I'm glad they're trying to do something about it, I'm worried about the folks that do /sweep when someone turns into a pile of ash.

Emotes are excluded from punishment. They are indeed now the only "legal" way to humiliate other players. So get yourself those emotes!
BUY CROWNS!

So I can still have my PvP funerals with 'professional mourners' for those afk dead guys then! Awesome!

(UwU)

Very much so! We even have the gravedigger!

Gythral

Who gives a ...

FlaviusPK

I don't like teabagging and never do but taking something away from people who are already toxic won't make them kind. Hidden or suppressed hate will find it's way in even more violent way. Let people be an *** in game instead of real life maybe and don't take it personal.

zaria

Gythral wrote: »

Who gives a ...

Cooperate drones afraid from getting sued or getting into an media backlash because snowflakes with an cell membrane for skin does.
Telling them to evolve an backbone and come back in 100 million year is not political correct for reasons this one don't understand.
And an toast to your


For us, its totally irrelevant

Donny_Vito

Props for reading the ToS

Pauwer

But i don't know any streamers, i have never watched any and i never will and overall don't care for such activity at all. So how do i avoid killing one? Do they have special streamer icons on the chars or something?

driosketch

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

Can you use all of these in Cyrodiil? I remember when the "Dash of Salt" one was added, it specifically said it wouldn't work in PvP.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Liam12548 wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

If I kill a player and play emotes or crouch on their body, is that considered "humiliation"?

It's unfortunate that we now have to ask for clarification on what is "acceptable" in pvp and what isn't, but it seems we have somehow gotten to this point.

I agree. I would like some clear examples of the new 'no no's', please.

I wouldn't like to be caught with my pants down, thank you.

tsaescishoeshiner

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

While this is a good point, a big difference is that teabagging is pretending to *** someone, plain and simple. Even if it's meant as a joke. The emotes are euphemistic and a bit more playful. Nothing wrong with some jokey bad manners

I don't let teabagging get to me but it certainly sours the mood a bit and makes the game environment seem immature and toxic. If someone gave me /bucketsplash or /sweep 10 times I would not have to even TRY to not be bothered lol. It's just funny. /stomp or other violent emotes wouldn't be that bad, either.

I don't mind some playful bad manners, and would actively welcome more of it (with good intentions), but teabagging is meant to be sexually violating

NoSoup

Ackwalan wrote: »

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Liam12548 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Here's a strawman scenario.

During an hour long fight over the last EMP Keep, you killed streamer FancyPants 3 times. According to your facebook you have donated to the "Give puppies a home" foundation multiple time. Streamer FancyPants is an advocate for "Give kittens a home" and speaks often of this during streams. You are clearly in violation of ours terms of conduct and have been warn. Any further warning and your account can be suspended.

As I said, this is a strawman scenario, maybe.

Or you kill streamerman957 and he says "this guy is stream sniping". Do you get banned?

It's more interesting to read wrapped around a story, but yes, basically that's what I was saying. Any popular streamer can petition to get some "nobody" banned.

Yeah, I recall killing Fengrush in IC quite some time ago, randomingly ran into him as he was going upstairs so I chased and killed. Didn't even know he was streaming. One of my guild mates jump on and rewatched his stream and in it he was having a whinge that I must have been on his stream cause I followed him......

Laggus

Pauwer wrote: »

But i don't know any streamers, i have never watched any and i never will and overall don't care for such activity at all. So how do i avoid killing one? Do they have special streamer icons on the chars or something?

I don't have a Facebook account or a Twitch account. I've been accused a few times by one of the more known streamers for stream sniping him and I've told him that's complete nonsense, I really could not be bothered. I mean don't stream if your that paranoid in PvP.

Tandor

Most players just click on the "Agree" box of a EULA without reading screens of legalese because they've read the summary and know they're playing the game the way it was intended to be played. Players who know they're way over the line will click "Agree" without bothering to read any of it at all including the summary. Players only need to worry about the borderline meaning of these things if they know their behaviour is borderline.

16BitForestCat

Liam12548 wrote: »

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

It's more likely this mainly applies to players blocking quest progress in PVE zones. From what I've been told over the years, if someone is blocking your quest progress in PVP zones, you're supposed to try another campaign. If you're being blocked in EVERY campaign, THEN you can start reporting people for griefing. (Personally, I'm all in favor of people being punished for griefing if they are very deliberately targeting PVE'ers even without swapping campaigns first. But I doubt that's how this policy change will be applied in the long run.)

Liam12548 wrote: »

If I kill a player and play emotes or crouch on their body, is that considered "humiliation"?

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

Lisutaris

I will take the privacy option.
No geems, free pets or mounts needed....

Mortiis13

preevious wrote: »

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Liam12548 wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

If I kill a player and play emotes or crouch on their body, is that considered "humiliation"?

It's unfortunate that we now have to ask for clarification on what is "acceptable" in pvp and what isn't, but it seems we have somehow gotten to this point.

regarding to your questions :

1) If you chain kill the same quester : IMO, that's not nice and I sure wouldn't do it, but it's not griefing. It's a PvP zone, there are risks involved. You're in the clear.

2) If you teabag someone (let's not hide it under harmless words .. this is what you describe) : IMO, that's not nice, that's despicable, childish and it's sure as hell is humiliation and griefing. Maybe a bit of empathy would be a nice thing to acquire, in that case.

Again, it's only my humble opinion.

I don't t bag, I'm too old for that. Also it's a waste of time for me.
But When Some1 get mad when another one t bags ur pixels, cause "muh feelings" are hurt, that person may should seek for help, cause the world outside the game is much harder and I'm really worried about such a person.

Maybe I have not enough empathy, but I had to go through some time I would consider a real living hell that affect me till now.
So getting mad other a t bagger is as childish for me as the t bagger itself.

Just my opinion, don't want to get disrespectful.

VaranisArano

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

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VaranisArano wrote: »

Is it just me, or do some of the Crown Store emotes seem a little inconsistent with the new TOS?
"Flip the Bird"


Or the mistletoe posterior one


I mean, I understand that everything that can be, will be misused eventually. But we've had enough griefing issues over the years with mudballs at outfit stations that I'm both glad that ZOS put in specific language to cover those situations AND think ZOS ought to put more thought into what mixed messages they send with emotes added to the game.

While this is a good point, a big difference is that teabagging is pretending to *** someone, plain and simple. Even if it's meant as a joke. The emotes are euphemistic and a bit more playful. Nothing wrong with some jokey bad manners

I don't let teabagging get to me but it certainly sours the mood a bit and makes the game environment seem immature and toxic. If someone gave me /bucketsplash or /sweep 10 times I would not have to even TRY to not be bothered lol. It's just funny. /stomp or other violent emotes wouldn't be that bad, either.

I don't mind some playful bad manners, and would actively welcome more of it (with good intentions), but teabagging is meant to be sexually violating

Sure. Though I'll note that when teabagging has come up on the forums in the past, there are plenty of folks who say they react to it in a similar way that you react to /sweep. Some people do view it as nothing more than "jokey bad manners" that's common in PVP games. (I don't do it out of respect for those who don't view it as such.)

My point is more that if ZOS is going to sell things that are designed to express disdain for opponents, I'd like them to be more clear on what behaviors they view as breaking the new TOS. Or as I said in a later comment, if this refers to teabagging, just say so plainly.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Liam12548 wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

What exactly entails "intentional acts of griefing or humiliation"? If I'm in imperial city and I kill the same quester 20 times in a row, does zenimax consider that "griefing"?

Hm, here's one example:

A set of players on my old alliance would routinely yell insults in zone, citing that .. someone.. must be "fat and a <censored>" because of how that person's main toon looked. I wish I was exaggerating. New players picked up on this behavior, as well as intentionally stealing this person's siege, turning it around on them and firing it at THEM as long as they were in the area. Just baby stuff and ignore it right?

Person in question paid a lot to move all their PvP toons to a new alliance, but the harassers followed them. Without this change the TOS there was literally no way for ZOS to punish what was very obvious harassment. It's been reported for over a year, by multiple people with screenshots. All ZOS could say was "just put them on ignore". Kinda hard to "ignore" when you see people immediately change alliances when their "target" logs in, then hunt someone down repeatedly, or set up siege to fire on a specific player of the same alliance.

A second example: I've been in a pvp guild group stream-sniping Fengrush, and a small group was able to wipe the big DC zerg multiple times.

I hate to say it, but if you're afraid of these TOS changes, maybe look at your own interactions. Yes, I realize people say all kinds of things about me on these forums. Most of them are exaggerated, and/or hearsay. I'm sure there are going to be comments about how this person "deserved" to be harassed.

If you agree that it's ok to harass people who "deserve" it... I'm going out on a limb here to say that's a problem.

Edit: In before "who cares that much about other people." There is a (pvp) guild on PC/NA that is known to harass players. Multiple campaigns, multiple alliances. I know at least 2 individuals who have sustained real life harm because of the actions of this guild's members, and yes, quit playing ESO because of it. ZOS limiting harassment is in their best interest, both for financials and reputation of the game.

Dusk_Coven

I'm more interested in whether they are actually going on enforce TOS.
If it's going to be more like how they handled https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544489/can-we-get-a-summary-and-stats-on-the-actions-taken-in-the-case-of-the-crowns-received-in-error#latest then all discussion is really moot.

fierackas

I'll just create a pvp toon called 'I am streaming'