today patch notes

SydneyGrey

Ackwalan wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Wait ... so if a streamer is playing, and you kill them, and they just happen to be broadcasting at the time even though you didn't know it, and had no idea who they are ... you'll be banned?
Not everyone follows streamers or stops to read someone's name in Cyrodiil before killing them.
Please tell me I'm wrong and just misinterpreting this.

Who will ZOS believe? A streamer that regularly has 5K views at any given time? Or someone that plays for a few hours on the weekend.

Well that's kind of my point. I play every single day, but if a streamer whined to ZOS that I killed them and accused me of "streamer sniping," I don't know how I could prove my innocence. I don't follow streamers. I don't know who most of them are except for Alcast. I don't want to be banned because I killed a streamer without knowing who he was, and I'm not going to look at people's names before I kill them most of the time.

AcadianPaladin

Wow, this unfamiliar term 'stream sniping' is interesting. Sounds like PvP streamers may be exercising poor operational security and stream snipers may be wisely using solid intelligence gathering procedures. Sounds like the streamers need to learn and practice good OpSec and solid counterintel (like misinformation) procedures. Opens all kinds of neat strategic opportunities.

Why would such fun and games of intel and counterintel be considered inappropriate? I thought PvP frowned on 'care bear' protectionism.

Loralai_907

I haven't logged in to ESO yet, but I suspect that the thing I am seeing talked about today regarding ZOS wanting access to your twitch and Facebook is at least part of how they are going to prove a person was stream sniping.

I don't know, I think the whole conversation is a little more complicated than just oh no streamer A was stream sniped by some mean viewer and they died from it! Can we also talk about the streamers that end up with 800 people following them around everywhere because they are watching said streamer and just go wherever the streamer goes? Like, that also creates an unfair situation for people, just not the streamer. Or are we only concerned with making sure the streamer has good feelings? Don't get me wrong, I rather like a lot of the PvP streamers, even the ones with a billion people following them around. I just think you cannot be seriously saying that its ok if the streamer benefits and has a hoard of people following them around, even if it otherwise hurts the gameplay of a map and/or makes it so other factions have a hard time getting people to play on those maps when its happening, but if a streamer gets their feelings hurt people are going to get banned for it.

Looking at what some other people have said since I started writing this, if its more for extreme cases of it, I'm fine with that. But if this is in any way able to be abused, and random folks start getting banned for no good reason, that would be super not cool.

TequilaFire

We don't even allow streaming in our guild group when we are playing, common sense 101.
But as long as there is zone chat it is all moot anyway. lol

mzprx

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Wow, this unfamiliar term 'stream sniping' is interesting. Sounds like PvP streamers may be exercising poor operational security and stream snipers may be wisely using solid intelligence gathering procedures. Sounds like the streamers need to learn and practice good OpSec and solid counterintel (like misinformation) procedures. Opens all kinds of neat strategic opportunities.

Why would such fun and games of intel and counterintel be considered inappropriate? I thought PvP frowned on 'care bear' protectionism.

this. exactly this. you want to win? you use every piece of information available to you. someone streams the game on some platform earning money via donations (perhaps)? well, they must expect someone (stream sniper) using the information they (streamers) themselves provided freely for everyone. "outlawing" stream sniping is a serious form of restricting the freedom of information. you don't want to get killed - you don't announce your position to anyone. you do announce your position to anyone? well, then expect to be killed over and over again. it's not like streamers are some form of protected species..

DustyWarehouse

I'm seeing a few people who don't have a full understanding of what stream sniping really is and the effects it can have on the streamer and the wider community. No, you won't be banned just because you outplay a streamer, and I hope that the amount of evidence that will be required to enforce the TOS will be sufficient enough that bans will be justified (we need ZOS to be clear on this, and how to report such suspected violations).

Yes, streamers should expect this sort of thing, and yes, some streamers will cry stream sniper when it isn't the case. But that doesn't necessarily come from being salty or wanting to get someone banned because they got outplayed. It comes from prior experience of being stream sniped, which often spills over into what can only be described as harassment.

And this is the crux of what stream sniping is... harassment. If you've never experienced harassment then I don't expect you to understand the effect it can have on you. Streamers stream to share their love of ESO and gaming, and being harassed will spoil that for them and their communities.

YandereGirlfriend

Didn't the Thief Mundus and Precise literally just get BUFFED last patch?!

And now they are nerfing them back down to what it was before?

Real talk but what are the developers even doing at this point?

Dietche

DustyWarehouse wrote: »

I'm seeing a few people who don't have a full understanding of what stream sniping really is and the effects it can have on the streamer and the wider community. No, you won't be banned just because you outplay a streamer, and I hope that the amount of evidence that will be required to enforce the TOS will be sufficient enough that bans will be justified (we need ZOS to be clear on this, and how to report such suspected violations).

Yes, streamers should expect this sort of thing, and yes, some streamers will cry stream sniper when it isn't the case. But that doesn't necessarily come from being salty or wanting to get someone banned because they got outplayed. It comes from prior experience of being stream sniped, which often spills over into what can only be described as harassment.

And this is the crux of what stream sniping is... harassment. If you've never experienced harassment then I don't expect you to understand the effect it can have on you. Streamers stream to share their love of ESO and gaming, and being harassed will spoil that for them and their communities.

I'm sorry.
I'm honestly very sorry, to have to point this out to you Dusty.

In ESO, compared to other games, "stream sniping" can only occur in PVP areas. And has been mentioned many times over, prior to this post, if you broadcast your tactical details to a mortal enemy, you should not be afforded any protections.

It is impossible to "harass" someone that is broadcasting tactically relevant information. It completely negates the value of the word "harass". A word that should be reserved for an entirely different class of abuses.

I don't think the community at large has a lack of understanding as to what "stream sniping" is, as you posit at the beginning of your post. I believe the lack here is your understanding of the word "harass". It does not matter if someone is killed once, or 1000 times, if they are openly and willingly sending information to the enemy. This is not an abuse nor is it harassment.

What's worse is these streamers are not just sending information about themselves in an unsecured channel, they are sending the information about everyone in their group, and everyone on their screen, to the enemy.

In effect, streamers are the very definition of traitors, and you cannot "harass" a traitor.
--Dietche

BigBragg

I miss the LoL button.

mzprx

DustyWarehouse wrote: »

I'm seeing a few people who don't have a full understanding of what stream sniping really is and the effects it can have on the streamer and the wider community...

...It comes from prior experience of being stream sniped, which often spills over into what can only be described as harassment.

And this is the crux of what stream sniping is... harassment. If you've never experienced harassment then I don't expect you to understand the effect it can have on you. Streamers stream to share their love of ESO and gaming, and being harassed will spoil that for them and their communities.

i disagree. a streamer is not protected species. if anyone abuses/harasses them verbally that is one thing. but if i see a huge blob of enemy alliance players following some streamer i do want to use every piece of information available to me to outsmart, outplay or outrun them. especially if they provided that information to me freely and without restriction. they (streamers) have created the situation themselves. they want to earn money on Twitch or be famous? good for them. but they shouldn't be surprised when stream snipers come knocking..

Dietche

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Didn't the Thief Mundus and Precise literally just get BUFFED last patch?!

Ahyup.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

And now they are nerfing them back down to what it was before?

You got it boss.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Real talk but what are the developers even doing at this point?

I believe the word you are looking for is ..
DERP.

Girl_Number8

Ackwalan wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Wait ... so if a streamer is playing, and you kill them, and they just happen to be broadcasting at the time even though you didn't know it, and had no idea who they are ... you'll be banned?
Not everyone follows streamers or stops to read someone's name in Cyrodiil before killing them.

Please tell me I'm wrong and just misinterpreting this.

Who will ZOS believe? A streamer that regularly has 5K views at any given time? Or someone that plays for a few hours on the weekend.

What is worse, is when another streamer trash talks you and you 1 v 1 or 1 v X them multiple times. Is that a bannable offense because to me that is PvP.

TequilaFire wrote: »

The Facebook/Twitter thing is not going to fly on console.

It certainly is not going to improve how the game plays, that is for certain.

I wish customers could have a TOS of their own about a game company keeping their promises.

x48rph

DustyWarehouse wrote: »

I'm seeing a few people who don't have a full understanding of what stream sniping really is and the effects it can have on the streamer and the wider community. No, you won't be banned just because you outplay a streamer, and I hope that the amount of evidence that will be required to enforce the TOS will be sufficient enough that bans will be justified (we need ZOS to be clear on this, and how to report such suspected violations).

Yes, streamers should expect this sort of thing, and yes, some streamers will cry stream sniper when it isn't the case. But that doesn't necessarily come from being salty or wanting to get someone banned because they got outplayed. It comes from prior experience of being stream sniped, which often spills over into what can only be described as harassment.

And this is the crux of what stream sniping is... harassment. If you've never experienced harassment then I don't expect you to understand the effect it can have on you. Streamers stream to share their love of ESO and gaming, and being harassed will spoil that for them and their communities.

The problem is that stream can also afford a huge advantage in ESO. Unlike other games with matches, limited players in the match and whatnot, where it would only benefit someone if they managed to get into the same match, notices they are in it with the streamer, and then uses the stream to come 'snipe' them, ESO has open world pvp where anyone who wants can hop into cyro and join it. Streaming allows coordination with a massive amount of people and as such , they should have to suffer the effects of streaming their position to everyone, not just reap the benefits.

Sephyr

Considering that streamers also regularly interact with developers, I have my doubts on proper reporting protocols. I think I remember something similar with the PUBG crowd, which I don't play that although I do remember negative publication articles covering the backlash.

Regardless, this whole stream sniping reminds me of LAN 'screen looker' scenarios with older siblings.

Girl_Number8

Ackwalan wrote: »

It's unnerving that the new TOS says they can access your facebook. I don't have facebook, so there's nothing there, or does that mean I'll be required to get facebook. Exactly how much private data does ZOS want access to in order to log in?

With how much they are probably making off of everyones personal business now eso+ should be free.

If anyone would even want it, as things are.

I thought they were going to be more transparent about things with the game. Not make our personal lives more transparent to corporations and strangers. If you even want to opt out you end up having to give even more personal information.

DustyWarehouse

Dietche wrote: »

In ESO, compared to other games, "stream sniping" can only occur in PVP areas. And has been mentioned many times over, prior to this post, if you broadcast your tactical details to a mortal enemy, you should not be afforded any protections.

Mortal enemy? Let's drop the roleplay for a moment, and indeed any in-game objective. Behind every character is a player, a human being. I am talking about the way in which people behave toward each other.

Dietche wrote: »

It is impossible to "harass" someone that is broadcasting tactically relevant information. It completely negates the value of the word "harass". A word that should be reserved for an entirely different class of abuses.

I don't think the community at large has a lack of understanding as to what "stream sniping" is, as you posit at the beginning of your post. I believe the lack here is your understanding of the word "harass". It does not matter if someone is killed once, or 1000 times, if they are openly and willingly sending information to the enemy. This is not an abuse nor is it harassment.

This shows you haven't experienced or seen first hand someone being harassed. Again, I am not talking about in-game objectives or being killed over an over by one player. I am talking about when sniping becomes harassment, the vulgar messages that are sent, following the streamer around on other platforms, social media etc. since these are places ZOS can't enforce their own TOS.

Dietche wrote: »

In effect, streamers are the very definition of traitors, and you cannot "harass" a traitor.

What? How does streaming a game make someone a traitor. And how on earth does it mean they can't be harassed?

DustyWarehouse

mzprx wrote: »

i disagree. a streamer is not protected species. if anyone abuses/harasses them verbally that is one thing. but if i see a huge blob of enemy alliance players following some streamer i do want to use every piece of information available to me to outsmart, outplay or outrun them. especially if they provided that information to me freely and without restriction. they (streamers) have created the situation themselves. they want to earn money on Twitch or be famous? good for them. but they shouldn't be surprised when stream snipers come knocking..

I don't expect streamers to be protected in any way. I do think people who go out of their way to target one person because they can see where they are and ignore everything else that is going on around them aren't exactly doing so in the interest of their alliance or teammates. It is different when the streamer is part of a large group playing the objective in Cyrodiil, but in this case their location is likely highlighted in zone chat anyway.

BigBragg

mzprx wrote: »

DustyWarehouse wrote: »

I'm seeing a few people who don't have a full understanding of what stream sniping really is and the effects it can have on the streamer and the wider community...

...It comes from prior experience of being stream sniped, which often spills over into what can only be described as harassment.

And this is the crux of what stream sniping is... harassment. If you've never experienced harassment then I don't expect you to understand the effect it can have on you. Streamers stream to share their love of ESO and gaming, and being harassed will spoil that for them and their communities.

i disagree. a streamer is not protected species. if anyone abuses/harasses them verbally that is one thing. but if i see a huge blob of enemy alliance players following some streamer i do want to use every piece of information available to me to outsmart, outplay or outrun them. especially if they provided that information to me freely and without restriction. they (streamers) have created the situation themselves. they want to earn money on Twitch or be famous? good for them. but they shouldn't be surprised when stream snipers come knocking..

Seems like to some degree ZeniMax disagrees with you on this. Their house, their rules.

Crash427

So a streamer can intentionally exploit *cough* infinite volendrung glitch *cough* with no consequences but if they complain to zos they can get you banned?

Waffennacht

I thought stream sniping was more than just killing someone but was like sending messages, ruining PvE stuff as well by like resetting a world boss.

Not just PvPing a person in PvP, but more than that in a way I cant describe well

danthemann5

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

...

I wish customers could have a TOS of their own about a game company keeping their promises.

We do. It's called the law.

Tech companies can put whatever they want into their TOSs. If it violates the law it means exactly nothing. If you want more aggressive protection from tech companies, elect representatives who will provide it. It's their job and your civic responsibility.

scorpius2k1

It's the classic "the minority causing grief for the many" situation again. Totally understand the need to catch cheaters/exploiters BUT I don't really agree to this type of enforcement entirely since the rest of us that don't do those things are basically giving up our identities BECAUSE of those types, or at least that is how the guise is being presented. An easy fix to the Twitch and other social media accounts being used to identify you is to maybe just unlink your Twitch/Facebook/Twitter accounts from your ESO account. Privacy is a bit more important than loot crates aka "Drops" imho. The new TOS also mentions these forums as a used medium as well, so if anything here is identifiable they can and will use it against you in an open case. Granted, in saying that if we already had our account(s) linked they may have already permanently stored the most recently identifiable information indefinitely since we are legally "forced" to agree to such TOS or we cannot login and play ESO at all.

What a world we live in when even video games are now subject to such harsh policing. Really just makes me want to unplug from anything that requires the Internet. Yikes.
.

Texecutioner187

Where are these patch notes? I see the updated Code of Conduct when logging in, but can't find patch notes here online...

Sephyr

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes? I see the updated Code of Conduct when logging in, but can't find patch notes here online...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544777/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-6#latest

Texecutioner187

Sephyr wrote: »

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes? I see the updated Code of Conduct when logging in, but can't find patch notes here online...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544777/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-6#latest

Thank you. Since this isn't PTS, I'm guessing the TOS I saw today is related to this and the in-game changes are on the way to console? (I'm on XB)

Sephyr

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes? I see the updated Code of Conduct when logging in, but can't find patch notes here online...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544777/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-6#latest

Thank you. Since this isn't PTS, I'm guessing the TOS I saw today is related to this and the in-game changes are on the way to console? (I'm on XB)

I'd imagine so though they probably updated it on all platforms since it's just the TOS in general (I wouldn't think they'd have to patch it since things like that can just be injected). The patch itself probably later per usual.

Dietche

DustyWarehouse wrote: »

This shows you haven't experienced or seen first hand someone being harassed. Again, I am not talking about in-game objectives or being killed over an over by one player. I am talking about when sniping becomes harassment, the vulgar messages that are sent, following the streamer around on other platforms, social media etc. since these are places ZOS can't enforce their own TOS.

There is a difference between harassment via stalking and stream sniping. A very large difference. And it should remain that way. The problem is that these two concepts are being conflated when they should not be. There are clear cut policies already in place for when one player gives another player grief with threatening messages. Ditto for when stalking or imminent bodily threat is at hand.

But these new policies intermingle wholly different ideals and situations, equating them as equal, when they are not. Stream Sniping is not stalking. Making them into the same concept waters down how bad stalking and abuse truly is. Saying that streamers should be protected from normal gameplay consequences is an insult to everyone that has lived through abuse.

IF ... repeat IF... ZOS had amended the TOS/EULA to say that they were imposing harsher penalties for actually threatening messages and stalking of players that were streaming, then that would be one thing. What the community is upset about is that they did not do this, but instead gave blanket immune shields to anyone streaming with no recourse by players for streamers committing traitorous actions and thereby tipping the scales of balance in favor of their faction. And, on top of that, handing bans out for anyone going against them, even by accident.

Remember, PVP is a competitive action, a sport, that earns money. There are people that do this professionally, more-so now than ever before, because of lock-downs and lost jobs. It also earns money for Zennimax. What I'm saying is that these are not simply changes that can go overlooked and passed off as a "role-play" aspect. Many people record their PVP battles, post them in social media, and earn money from this, *without* giving away tactical info, all while providing for their families.

So you see, the situation is not as simple as you are trying to make it sound. The nuances of conflating normal game-play with abuse and harassment has many knock-on side-effects. What myself, and many others are saying is that this is a poor decision, and a poor solution, to the problems at hand.

Dietche wrote: »

In effect, streamers are the very definition of traitors, and you cannot "harass" a traitor.

DustyWarehouse wrote: »

What? How does streaming a game make someone a traitor. And how on earth does it mean they can't be harassed?

Giving away tactical information to the enemy makes you a traitor. I fail to see how this is confusing for you. And as far as them being harassed, again we have to have clear cut definitions to have a meaningful talk. Killing a traitor is not harassment. Stream Sniping them back to the graveyard over and over is not harassment. Neither is trash talking.

It is only harassment or abuse when it becomes stalking, or threats of bodily harm (etcetera). These concepts MUST be kept separate. Wholly, unequivocally, and intrinsically separate as well as carefully and specifically defined.
--Dietche

Texecutioner187

Sephyr wrote: »

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Where are these patch notes? I see the updated Code of Conduct when logging in, but can't find patch notes here online...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544777/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-6#latest

Thank you. Since this isn't PTS, I'm guessing the TOS I saw today is related to this and the in-game changes are on the way to console? (I'm on XB)

I'd imagine so though they probably updated it on all platforms since it's just the TOS in general (I wouldn't think they'd have to patch it since things like that can just be injected). The patch itself probably later per usual.

Yeah that's what I meant - I'm having trouble wording today. The TOS changes are globally and the patch will come to console eventually. I suppose that since this isn't PTS then there is no chance for them to change anything, these are just coming no matter what.

Kharnamantic

Why did they buff crit (precise and thief crit stones) last patch (just two weeks ago) and then nerf them today????? Does ESO know what they are doing???

Also: stream sniping is now a bannable offense??? But alcast and asmongold love it when my guild bomb his videos.

Girl_Number8

danthemann5 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

...

I wish customers could have a TOS of their own about a game company keeping their promises.

We do. It's called the law.

Tech companies can put whatever they want into their TOSs. If it violates the law it means exactly nothing. If you want more aggressive protection from tech companies, elect representatives who will provide it. It's their job and your civic responsibility.

That worked so well with *cough cough the gambling* crown crates didn’t it