What is the point of animation cancelling and skill swapping?

Aertew

Imo I don't mind weapon swapping, but why skill swap? It's just a pain to have to manage, animation cancelling just isn't that fun as you might as well not make animations for abilties. Also in case people don't realize, I still like ESO, but these are just 2 problems I notice imo.

Taleof2Cities

Are you saying you only want one skill bar with 10 skills and 2 ultimates?

Sounds like a lot more keyboard keys to memorize than the standard 5 keys and 1 ultimate.

As much as I like Final Fantasy Online, one of its drawbacks is the huge keyboard maps you have to use.

Vevvev

If there is one thing I like about ESO its the small amount of skills you really need to make something work. After playing Star Trek Online for 7 years, as well as a few others, where you have 3+ bars of just skills it got really annoying. Spent more time looking at my skill bar or my keyboard than I was on the actual combat, and I still won because my keyboard pressing was better than my opponents.

As for animation cancelling its only really used when you want an ability to land sooner. Like when you stun someone in PVP and are about to use an execute on them, but you don't want them to break free and dodge roll before it lands. Light attack weaving is another form of "animation cancelling" and its used to increase your DPS by taking advantage of the fact light attacks are not on the Global Cooldown like skills are.

goldCoaster

I think most of us do it instinctively without realizing.

Sunderling

Hi friend.

I was thrown off at first as well by having to swap weapons to get to another bar. I am used to Aion, where we had up to 50 + skills on your UI at a time including foods/potions/scrolls (which enhance run speed and attack speed and crit, on top of food and drink that were separately applicable).

At one point I had some 40 binds on my naga alone for that game... not counting the keyboard binds. Maybe 60, 70... hard to recall.

However, with that being said, I think weapon/skill swapping adds a level of skill check and emphasizes understanding your circumstance. I do wish it had both bars right there, but the fact you need to switch weapons to use them anyway most of the time is enough to justify it for me. In Aion you could swap weapons in the same fashion but the skills would still be grayed out if you didn't have the appropriate weapon on at that time... so it's not really much of an actual difference. WoW and Aion were both potentially UI heavy mmo's (aion I had mine pretty cleaned up and like 10 or more skills I had set to actually be hidden because I either knew their cd's by heart or it wasn't technical or demanding enough to need to see them or the UI showed me prompts when I could use them anyway).


Synergies throws me off though.... really weird having to hit X all the time. Might rebind that shortly.

Atherakhia

ESO is hardly the first and likely won't be the last MMO to have bar swapping. It is the first MMO I've played that has made bar swapping so critical to gameplay and not have a bar swap mechanic that works though. If you hit the bar swap button and your bar actually swapped it's honestly not that bad a mechanic. Especially when the game you're attempting to implement bar swapping for is multi-platform. But again, bar swapping doesn't work and if they can't be bothered to fix it then they probably should consider redesigning their gameplay mechanics not to use it.

Similarly for animation cancelling, I'm less convinced it's an intended element to add a level of complexity to the game and not a bug they cannot fix due to the game engine this game uses. It's unintuitive, inconsistent, and poorly implemented. Again, if they can't be bothered to make it work properly and allow players to figure out how to do it naturally through their everyday gameplay, it's probably something best gotten rid of.

ESO is a hodgepodge of ideas that simply don't work more times than not unfortunately and the development team is too concerned with designing around their cash shop than they are getting the game to work properly. They've promised a CP rewrite and class overhauls. We'll see if that ever materializes cause unfortunately I think animation cancelling, light attack weaving, and bar swapping are here to stay.

Sunderling

Atherakhia wrote: »

ESO is hardly the first and likely won't be the last MMO to have bar swapping. It is the first MMO I've played that has made bar swapping so critical to gameplay and not have a bar swap mechanic that works though. If you hit the bar swap button and your bar actually swapped it's honestly not that bad a mechanic. Especially when the game you're attempting to implement bar swapping for is multi-platform. But again, bar swapping doesn't work and if they can't be bothered to fix it then they probably should consider redesigning their gameplay mechanics not to use it.

Similarly for animation cancelling, I'm less convinced it's an intended element to add a level of complexity to the game and not a bug they cannot fix due to the game engine this game uses. It's unintuitive, inconsistent, and poorly implemented. Again, if they can't be bothered to make it work properly and allow players to figure out how to do it naturally through their everyday gameplay, it's probably something best gotten rid of.

ESO is a hodgepodge of ideas that simply don't work more times than not unfortunately and the development team is too concerned with designing around their cash shop than they are getting the game to work properly. They've promised a CP rewrite and class overhauls. We'll see if that ever materializes cause unfortunately I think animation cancelling, light attack weaving, and bar swapping are here to stay.

So far I enjoy the ani cancel but Aion's worked fairly similarly so I'm used to it. I've had more trouble with heavy attacks going into the next skill than light attacks though. Particularly with stuff like wreckless and dizzy

Aertew

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Are you saying you only want one skill bar with 10 skills and 2 ultimates?

Sounds like a lot more keyboard keys to memorize than the standard 5 keys and 1 ultimate.

As much as I like Final Fantasy Online, one of its drawbacks is the huge keyboard maps you have to use.

Didn't Guild Wars 2 have something like that though? They had 1-9 and let you switch weapons, but if the skill didn't match the weapon it would be grayed out.

robpr

I guess it's 5+5 because of consoles. Besides how you view using a bow skills while having DW equipped? Weapon will phase into existence or what

idk

What is skill swapping? If it is having to choose 10 skills and 2 ultimate to use in combat, well, I guess that can be an adjustment for those used to having walls of skills taking up a large portion of the screen. If you play long enough I expect you will begin to the simplicity this brings to ESO without taking away from the combat experience.

If you do not like animation canceling then do not do it. It is not needed for clearing any content in ESO. Most people only AC basic attacks and on weapon swap.

robpr wrote: »

I guess it's 5+5 because of consoles.

While coming down to how many skills may have been affected by the console design, I doubt Zos ever considered walls of skills being on our screen because that has never been the TES way. We have always had to choose what we would have available in TES.

eKsDee

robpr wrote: »

I guess it's 5+5 because of consoles. Besides how you view using a bow skills while having DW equipped? Weapon will phase into existence or what

Consoles could support more than 5 skills by adding a modifier key, like LB or RB acting as a modifier to open A/B/X/Y up for more skill slots. It's been done before, the PS4 version of Path of Exile uses a modifier key to give you access to both skill bars.

Stahlor

Usually you have some skills related to the weapon on your bar, so the bar swap/weapon swap makes sense. E.g.why should you be able to use a bow skill on your 2-hander bar without changing weapon?

exeeter702

Vevvev wrote: »

If there is one thing I like about ESO its the small amount of skills you really need to make something work. After playing Star Trek Online for 7 years, as well as a few others, where you have 3+ bars of just skills it got really annoying. Spent more time looking at my skill bar or my keyboard than I was on the actual combat, and I still won because my keyboard pressing was better than my opponents.

As for animation cancelling its only really used when you want an ability to land sooner. Like when you stun someone in PVP and are about to use an execute on them, but you don't want them to break free and dodge roll before it lands. Light attack weaving is another form of "animation cancelling" and its used to increase your DPS by taking advantage of the fact light attacks are not on the Global Cooldown like skills are.

Animation canceling does not allow abilities to land sooner.....

Vevvev

Aertew wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Are you saying you only want one skill bar with 10 skills and 2 ultimates?

Sounds like a lot more keyboard keys to memorize than the standard 5 keys and 1 ultimate.

As much as I like Final Fantasy Online, one of its drawbacks is the huge keyboard maps you have to use.

Didn't Guild Wars 2 have something like that though? They had 1-9 and let you switch weapons, but if the skill didn't match the weapon it would be grayed out.

GW2 has bar swapping but your weapons determine your skills. First 5 abilities are determined by your weapon choice and the remaining 5 were divided up where 6 was a heal, 7-9 were class stuff, and 0 was the ultimate.

So n combat you could for example swap from a staff to a sword and pistol should the scenario call for those skills over the staff. Some classes like the Elementalist couldn't bar swap in combat though, but they didn't really need to since they technically had 4 bars where each was a different element with different effects.

Aertew

robpr wrote: »

I guess it's 5+5 because of consoles. Besides how you view using a bow skills while having DW equipped? Weapon will phase into existence or what

I don't mind weapon swapping, but skill swapping seeme to be un-neccasary,

Example: Guild Wars 2.

redgreensunset

Aertew wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

I guess it's 5+5 because of consoles. Besides how you view using a bow skills while having DW equipped? Weapon will phase into existence or what

I don't mind weapon swapping, but skill swapping seeme to be un-neccasary,

Example: Guild Wars 2.

What is this skill swapping you're talking about? Like where does it come into play? True you often have different setups between overland and group content (and pvp), but once you've set it up why change until you go do something different? Snd the changes are usually minor so I don't see hoe it is such a big hurdle.

Sephyr

Vevvev wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Are you saying you only want one skill bar with 10 skills and 2 ultimates?

Sounds like a lot more keyboard keys to memorize than the standard 5 keys and 1 ultimate.

As much as I like Final Fantasy Online, one of its drawbacks is the huge keyboard maps you have to use.

Didn't Guild Wars 2 have something like that though? They had 1-9 and let you switch weapons, but if the skill didn't match the weapon it would be grayed out.

GW2 has bar swapping but your weapons determine your skills. First 5 abilities are determined by your weapon choice and the remaining 5 were divided up where 6 was a heal, 7-9 were class stuff, and 0 was the ultimate.

So n combat you could for example swap from a staff to a sword and pistol should the scenario call for those skills over the staff. Some classes like the Elementalist couldn't bar swap in combat though, but they didn't really need to since they technically had 4 bars where each was a different element with different effects.

Except for Elementalists. While they do have access to barswap now, you can't bar swap while you're in combat. Which is annoying for my Eles.

As it stands with the current model of ESO, when things work the number of abilities works pretty well for what it does.

Vevvev

Sephyr wrote: »

Except for Elementalists. While they do have access to barswap now, you can't bar swap while you're in combat. Which is annoying for my Eles.

I recently got back into GW2 and play an elementalist weaver so I know lol. Even said so although might not have been the best wording.... anyways, the amount of gap closers a weaver with a sword and dagger has access to would be unheard of here in ESO. Its so much fun! Isn't laughing like a super villain as they lightning teleport across the map.

Pinja

If not already covered I'm going to say from the player perspective animation canceling is to increase damage. Skill swapping from the perspective of a key board warrior makes actions quicker as it put a full range of skills under one hand. Rather than have that one hand jump all over the key board, or the other hand come off the mouse.

I'm about to write up a concept on reverse dysync that may explain why bar swapping is so clunky.

stefj68

for me animation cancelling / weaving feel like cheating... imagine i stop my brutal axe swing in the middle and kick you in the groin and u get take both damages! does it that feel rights? for me its more exploting... but well if u want to get in vet trials i have to get used to it otherwise you wont put out numbers dps wise!

Almsivife

Animation cancelling (aka "weaving") is an exploit that people treat as a crucial mechanic. It is impossible to talk about using in-universe terms and it does not make sense at all as a combat method. They should honestly remove the possibility for it from the game entirely, instead of desperately introducing skills that attempt to give it a lore-friendly explanation (e.g. Elemental Weapon).

And before people inevitably dunk on me and yell at me to get good or whatever: I know how to weave. I've practiced it a bunch and can report numbers that let people include me in vet trials. But that does not mean I have to like it.

Vanagrand

Animation cancelling is a result of bad programing and they just decided to leave it like this. What is the point of making animation if you have to cancel them to improve your dps?

Nover gonna change, so its a take it or leave it thing.

stefj68

Vanagrand wrote: »

Animation cancelling is a result of bad programing and they just decided to leave it like this. What is the point of making animation if you have to cancel them to improve your dps?

Nover gonna change, so its a take it or leave it thing.

i still don't think thats the only bad programming!
not being able to cross-platform is another one! lol

FrankonPC

Almsivife wrote: »

Animation cancelling (aka "weaving") is an exploit that people treat as a crucial mechanic.

And before people inevitably dunk on me and yell at me to get good or whatever

To the former, it's never been an exploit. This is just disinformation. We are in year 6 of this game and people are still trying to claim this is an exploit when the devs have said it isn't and have revolved end game dps around it. End game tanks need canceling to not get one shot, healers need weapon swap canceling to keep all of us plebs alive.

To the latter, at least you knew.

FrankonPC

stefj68 wrote: »

for me animation cancelling / weaving feel like cheating... imagine i stop my brutal axe swing in the middle and kick you in the groin and u get take both damages! does it that feel rights? for me its more exploting... but well if u want to get in vet trials i have to get used to it otherwise you wont put out numbers dps wise!

true, it's just not realistic to actual combat! Now let me hop on my fire breathing Sabre mount before I engage in my next fight where I cast magical defensive and offensive spells. Now I'm gonna block that axe and kick with a mystical shield, or if you attack me from my flank my shield not facing you will block the damage.

Combat realism is important, but it's not as important as a game being fun. Animation canceling makes this game more fast paced and enjoyable. Eso is one of the few mmos that has it and its appeal draws more than just the mmo crowd. This game is unique in how combat functions and is one of its biggest draws. If you get rid of it, it's just a worse performance version of every other mmo on the market.

You do not need to do it, but it's also not cheating.

Crow_IX

you're given 5 skills and 1 ultimate per bar, then you have a quick slot item. when you decide to put skills on your bar, why do you do it? well we need to attack, so we will put some attacks on, the common settup is a spamable, a stun and an execute. so thats 3 down, what do i need now? well defense, right. so a self heal is nice, as well as a buff for dmg mitigation. so thats 5 skills so far. where do they go. 5 more, i would choose something like a dmg buff. now that leaves me with open options of 4 abilities. i can add dots, resource management abilities more dmg buffs or increase movement speed skills or even an extra heal. the diversity is insane although these days means little since you only need 1 ability and 3 proc sets, but none the less. where you place skills on your bar will highly effect your performance due to passives. for example lets say you get 2% crit increase per sub class ability on your bar.

now for animation canceling, these days is barely a shadow of its former self. it used to represent mastery of mechanics in the game. those who had good timing with animation canceling were able to fight faster than your average player. and its still used to be slightly faster but its hardly worth it these days since targeting is an issue and half the skills are duds anyways, you'll just waste resources. but its not completely useless, yet.

Ithilis

There is even a loading screen instruction text about weaving, so timing light attack-skills into "animation canceling" can't be cheating...

JinMori

I would enjoy having another skill slot or 2 though.

GeneraLandon

Well if everything is as advertised then medusa should be able to take the place of ms and channeled acc. It's pretty *** that the bis gear for mag characters hasn't changed in 4 or 5 yrs. Why bother coming out with a ton of new sets that are inferior?

vestahls

Animation cancelling and the weaving that was developed by players as a result was an unintended system that had to be discovered by players a few years into the game. Because it was to much trouble to get rid of it, ZOS decided to put some info about it in a loading screen tip to give it a veneer of validity.

But yeah, it's a weird and clumsy system. It's like they tried to be different from other MMOs, try something new, and some people like it but I've never seen the point. IMO bar swapping is a waste of time, there's no need to have 5x5 skills, just put all of them in one row - no, it's not too much to remember.

And if my character gains a skill, why can't they use it whenever they want? Why do I have to limit myself to 10 + 2 ultimates? Makes no sense.

Sergykid

no point, it's fake propaganda for misunderstood concept. Made a guide on Steam about it, if u r interested