We’re not happy about the Guild Trader swap times and here’s why…

BansheeVT

So here we are, 1 year after Black Sunday Part I when all of the guild traders could be hired for 10k after the first attempt of multi-bidding went horribly wrong... Following this, there were posts claiming that it would happen again, then, incredibly, it happened again in May. Now after 2 Black Sundays ZOS has surprised us with their "solution". And not in a very positive way as far as I am able to judge. For all of you who haven't read it yet: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/540142/updates-to-guild-trader-swap-times

1. First of all: Could we talk about the general lack of clear communication again?
During the huge maintenance issue last Monday (11 hours!?) there was 0 communication, just extended maintenance announcements. Now a HUGE change to the current guild trader system is announced and we get this fuzzy text? No offense to Gina here!

August 3rd is today, a Monday, not yesterday when traders actually swapped. Was there no proofreading involved in such an important announcement?And why bother changing something now in the first place, months after the last issue and then only change the time of the swap instead of the code behind it? Don’t get me wrong - changing something that obviously had to be changed is good but not in this way. When will real changes actually be made?

2. Why do the guild kiosks still say 6 days, x hours left when trying to bid on guild traders, when it should be 8 days?
Sirinsidiator already asked about this in the original announcement post but AFAIK there has not been an answer yet - another communication issue.

3. A Tuesday? At 14:00 UTC? Really??
3.1 Tuesday has 0 connection to a “normal” week.
It’s not Sunday or even Monday. It’s Tuesday. How are casual players supposed to understand that the week finishes on Tuesdays now? We GMs have had enough problems teaching the casual gamers that the deadline for reaching their weekly minimum sales or make their donations was 19:00 UTC. That so many time zones are mixed up on the PC EU megaserver makes it even more difficult. And now somehow we're supposed to make everyone understand that the week finishes on Tuesdays at a time when most people are still at work?

3.2 This is very detrimental to the players.
So far, we've had the advantage of being able to use the weekend to make the large number of players who are particularly active on the weekend aware that they'll soon have to meet the weekly revenue requirements through mails or messages in guild chat. This won’t be the case anymore if the week finishes on a Tuesday. Furthermore, who wants to hear about their lacking sales at the weekend when only half of the trading week has already passed?

3.3 The guild leaders lose out again.
Many of the guild leaders will not be at home at the time of the new guild trader swap. Of course, some of them were working or going out on Sunday night also, but the whole idea is that Tuesday noon is less busy, so everyone is aware that many guild leaders will not be there, right? This is something ZOS voluntarily and consciously accepts.What if the expected Black Sunday Part III happens? If nothing is changed in the code, I don't think this is impossible on a Tuesday either. And if you aren’t at home, you won’t have the possibility to hire a trader if they are free again (although last time this also wasn't possible for the guilds that won...). This means that if you lose, you probably won't be able to look for a free trader and all traders will be gone by the time you get home.

Usually on Sundays or at least on weekends, all necessary decisions are made in peace. Events like sales events are planned, bids are discussed, members get reminders to sell and donate and you also just want to play the game yourself... it takes 30min to get to all zones and place all bids, especially with several trade guilds you have to bid for. Lots of time is needed for that, time you usually don’t have on a Tuesday morning.

Already placing bids on the weekend might not be the smartest move. First of all I don't have all the gold available and therefore can't properly decide where I want to bid. I can't change much on Monday/Tuesday, because deleting bids is still not possible. So should I wait until Tuesday to avoid that? And what if I come home late on Monday and don't log in anymore? Or there are unexpected delays during maintenance again? Should I log in at 4am on Tuesday before I go to work to place my bids?

3.4. What about the add-ons?
ZOS doesn’t provide any tools to monitor trade guild members’ sales or track donations. GMs have to rely on add-ons like MM, ATT and SGT. Will the new trader swap time break them? How long will it take for all the add-on developers to find the time to fix them if they haven’t done it already or if problems occur? Why hasn’t ZOS given them more time to adjust their essential add-ons? This week is already messed up regarding weekly requirements due to it being 9 days long instead of 7 and the uncertainty about what what the add-ons will track now. Will the next weeks be messed up too? That would be a huge issue for every serious trading guild.

Conclusion:

- Just moving the guild trader swap to a less populated time might help for now but it’s not a proper fix for the underlying issue
- ZOS hasn’t given us a say in this nor have they cared about our opinions or the issues it will bring for us. There is no talk about server improvement. It’s just hoping it will run smoother if fewer people are online

Why is the community not involved in decisions like this? Why is only the time being changed and not the code? Would it also be too heavy on the servers to let the switch happen earlier on a Sunday? Or on a Saturday? So we could at least have the weekend to take proper care of the guild management. Even Tuesday evening would be better than Tuesday noon when most people are still at work.

I really hope there will be enough employees around on Sunday, and next week on Tuesday, and that ZOS immediately takes down the servers if another Black Sunday or the first Black Tuesday occurs.

Overall another big disappointment and slap in the face.

VaranisArano

I think it's more a matter of:

You can have the trader swap when its convenient for players
OR
You can have a prompt response from ZOS because the trader swap happens when they can fit it into their work week.

We can complain that its an Either/Or and the ZOS somehow can't do Both, but that's apparently not an option. As long as ZOS actually does promptly respond to issues when they happen, I suspect this kerfuffle over the swap time change will settle quickly. If they don't, much complaining about "big changes, no results" will ensue.

jaws343

In regards to dues collection, you can keep the current cycle for collections even if the trader reset is two days later. The trader reset changing doesn't mean you have to change the day/time of dues being due. Mon-Sun could still count for the dues of the trader reset on the following Tuesday. Or whatever a guild's dues setup is.

BansheeVT

jaws343 wrote: »

The trader reset changing doesn't mean you have to change the day/time of dues being due. Mon-Sun could still count for the dues of the trader reset on the following Tuesday. Or whatever a guild's dues setup is.

Depends on what the addons will track. And just imagine being in Vivec for 1 week with 150k min sales and then on tuesday you lose your bids and have no or a really bad trader. Will you pause quota then even though people had almost 2 days to reach quota? Will the quota be active again next week if you win a better trader on tuesday (and also only tell your members on tuesday cause you couldn't have known sooner)? Or are 2 weeks messed up with no quota?

Dont_do_drugs

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think it's more a matter of:

You can have the trader swap when its convenient for players
OR
You can have a prompt response from ZOS because the trader swap happens when they can fit it into their work week.

We can complain that its an Either/Or and the ZOS somehow can't do Both, but that's apparently not an option. As long as ZOS actually does promptly respond to issues when they happen, I suspect this kerfuffle over the swap time change will settle quickly. If they don't, much complaining about "big changes, no results" will ensue.

How is zos supposed to react if Noone can report issues, bcs of not beeing online?

Nicky33

What a polite and gentle way to say ZOS that it's doing ***.... My compliments!

VaranisArano

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think it's more a matter of:

You can have the trader swap when its convenient for players
OR
You can have a prompt response from ZOS because the trader swap happens when they can fit it into their work week.

We can complain that its an Either/Or and the ZOS somehow can't do Both, but that's apparently not an option. As long as ZOS actually does promptly respond to issues when they happen, I suspect this kerfuffle over the swap time change will settle quickly. If they don't, much complaining about "big changes, no results" will ensue.

How is zos supposed to react if Noone can report issues, bcs of not beeing online?

They'll be at work and presumably online and able to check for themselves, as opposed to being at Sunday dinner or already in bed.

agegarton

My current aim - if at all possible - is to keep my Guild trading week running from Monday to Sunday. My members don't need to know when I bid for kiosk, just that we have a kiosk. This will simplify things them them, at least.

To be honest, I'm less concerned about moving the bidding window than I am about the other excellent points raised in @BansheeVT's post.

1. What ever happened to a bit of notice.......?
2. Comms from ZoS has absolutely deteriorated again.
3. Why don't we have better tools to help us manage trade guilds - they're a huge part of the game and almost totally forgotten by ZoS
4. Existing tools don't work well either - case in point is the countdown to bids closing - it's wrong. Well, it's wrong based on the announcement....... maybe the announcement is wrong......? We won't know until Tuesday next week!!
5. Why can't we cancel bids!!!????

I hope that add-on devs allow a toggle for the bid week -OR- calendar week in their add-ons going forward.

DragonRacer

Console pleeb here, so considering impact of add-ons doesn't affect me.

Donation-based, no dues, so this again makes me pleased with my current setup. Seems this is a much larger headache for dues-charging or sales requirement guilds and/or PC guilds specifically (sort of ironic, given the move is to try and help the PC guilds who've suffered from failure or potentially have failure on the horizon due to slower and slower flip results; console has been fortunate to not suffer this as of yet).

I'm finding it interesting simply watching the reactions because I recall, many moons ago, either a multi-bidding thread or maybe it was the first Black Sunday thread, that the idea of swapping trader flip day/time was brought up. Many seemed in favor. I was opposed because I still liked being online to see how flip went, and kinda got shouted down by some folks.

Now here we are and it's like a total 180 - everyone's upset and I've totally lost my internal "need" to be online at flip. Largely because backup bids have proven fruitful for my guild and because there are absolutely no traders left available after flip on PS4 NA... the scout team I had run saw this in short order a few runs after multibidding was introduced. I've only once seen an open trader... in an outlaw refuge, unclaimed, 3 days after flip. That was quite the odd aberration.

At any rate, my major concern right now is the unanswered question about the current flip countdown still indicating Sunday right now. What's gonna happen? Will bidding shut down for two days and anyone who didn't bid on the old schedule gets locked out? Will flip still happen on Sunday accidentally and then we have a mess on our hands - i.e. are we gonna end up having a week's worth of funds removed for a 2-day trader?

redgreensunset

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think it's more a matter of:

You can have the trader swap when its convenient for players
OR
You can have a prompt response from ZOS because the trader swap happens when they can fit it into their work week.

We can complain that its an Either/Or and the ZOS somehow can't do Both, but that's apparently not an option. As long as ZOS actually does promptly respond to issues when they happen, I suspect this kerfuffle over the swap time change will settle quickly. If they don't, much complaining about "big changes, no results" will ensue.

How is zos supposed to react if Noone can report issues, bcs of not beeing online?

Execept plenty of people are on at 2pm gmt. Due to shifting work times I have played at all hours of the day and the server is plenty populated at that time including with people in my trade guild, it's the pro as well as con of an international game. Assuming the GM cannot be on at trader swap they could designate a person or persons in the guild that are able to to act on their behalf and keep an eye on things.

ganzaeso

Relax a bit about the trader flip time on Sunday. ZOS can not change that until the trader flip time passes today or traders will flip today😁

As a GM of 2 guilds that trade this has got me concerned. I run raffles that incorporate sale results for free tickets and need working add-ons for it to go smoothly.

Thankfully I think Master Merchant has had the necessary adjustments.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Anyone want to go back to monday morning flip that was during maintenance half the time?

Dont_do_drugs

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Anyone want to go back to monday morning flip that was during maintenance half the time?

In pc EU there were multiple gm liking that time. And we were on, no matter what. U can shorten ur sleep time for one night in a week, but u can't go home early from work bcs of zos. First thing is a choice u can make at least. Also for us it meant: nur die harten kommen in den Garten.

Dusk_Coven

When everyone is finally tired of ZOS duct-taping this, we can switch to a global market system.
Just the listing part can be changed.
How players actually buy can still be going to the kiosks -- the NPC would sell what it looks like their store is selling. So an NPC whose stall looks like a grocery would automatically search the market for all grocery-item type listings and sell ONLY those types of items, a combination of player listings and NPC inventory.

It's one thing to try to simulate stores in the world. It's another to have such a clunky interface prone to disaster for it to be worth it. Just choose an easier abstraction to implement.

In fact right now the situation is ridiculous. You might go to a butcher to buy soul gems because that's just what the guild kiosk looks like. You go to the bank to buy groceries because that's a way to access your guild store.

Elsonso

Don't forget that the whole reason they are doing this is because they are making changes in U27 that will be coming out Soon™ and they want to monitor the swap at a time when they are at work.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Imagine ZOS took the time to actually flush out their market system? It only took them like 5 years to make basic QoL changes that add-ons have been providing for years. Why should they pay people to fix a problem they create when they know the community will do it for them for free.

BansheeVT

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

It only took them like 5 years to make basic QoL changes that add-ons have been providing for years. Why should they pay people to fix a problem they create when they know the community will do it for them for free.

I think that's why they should at least show some more respect and support for the add-on authors. Give them time to adjust their add-ons, prioritize their questions, clearly tell them what they will change, etc. That would also already resolve some of the player and especially GM issues or at least make them less significant. If I had known that add-on x will cope with it this way, add-on y will do it that way and both will fully function this whole time, I could have adjusted to that already and not paused quota or tell members that I also don't know what is happening with these add-ons.

DigitalHype

Every single one of these issues goes away if you switch to a global AH.

BansheeVT

This is not a discussion about global AH again xD

Blacknight841

agegarton wrote: »

3. Why don't we have better tools to help us manage trade guilds - they're a huge part of the game and almost totally forgotten by ZoS

This is not entirely true. There are improvements coming to trade guilds. This was announced in 2016.... so it should be here any year now.

Elsonso

.

DigitalHype wrote: »

Every single one of these issues goes away if you switch to a global AH.

This is probably true. All of them would be replaced by one issue to rule them all.

"I can't buy anything from the global auction house."

DigitalHype

BansheeVT wrote: »

This is not a discussion about global AH again xD

Agreed. It wasn't a discussion. Just a simple fact.

volkeswagon

Why not have traders flip Friday at Midnight (Thursday night )and have bidding end Wednesday night at midnight so you get a mail stating which trader you won a day before you get it allowing for time to fix any issues. Then they have all day Friday to fix any goofs that come up at flip so everythings good for the weekend.

agegarton

Blacknight841 wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

3. Why don't we have better tools to help us manage trade guilds - they're a huge part of the game and almost totally forgotten by ZoS

This is not entirely true. There are improvements coming to trade guilds. This was announced in 2016.... so it should be here any year now.

I stand corrected.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

BansheeVT wrote: »

3.4. What about the add-ons?
ZOS doesn’t provide any tools to monitor trade guild members’ sales or track donations. GMs have to rely on add-ons like MM, ATT and SGT. Will the new trader swap time break them? How long will it take for all the add-on developers to find the time to fix them if they haven’t done it already or if problems occur? Why hasn’t ZOS given them more time to adjust their essential add-ons? This week is already messed up regarding weekly requirements due to it being 9 days long instead of 7 and the uncertainty about what what the add-ons will track now. Will the next weeks be messed up too? That would be a huge issue for every serious trading guild.

Maybe...i don't know... do like every trading guild on console were these add-on dont exist
Granted guild on console moststly only work with donation of 5k to 20k(depending on the kiosk targeted by the guild) to guild bank wich can easily be tracked in the guild menu and raffles
So its still doable

AgaTheGreat

If console guild masters can do it without addons, so can you

VaranisArano

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

If console guild masters can do it without addons, so can you

Kind of.

I mean, yes, console guilds make it obvious that we can run guilds without add-ons. However, the quirk on PC is that addons make it possible for trading guilds to have sales requirements instead of solely relying on fees, donations, and/or raffles. Without addons to collate sales totals on a weekly basis, PC guilds can't do business as usual for them. They'd have to switch to the console model of funding their guilds.

That's NBD for anyone who likes fees, donations, or raffles. Personally, I far prefer to just make my sales requirements and call it good.

BansheeVT

Well at least the bid windows are updated now so lets hope traders switch at wanted time and not on sunday already

BansheeVT

love how trader swap times got changed and it's still not working properly
First 1min "free" traders, then "none hired" for all guilds who indeed hired traders, now 20min after swap still only 1 of my 4 guilds got the refunds from the backup bids and for 2 hours we've been dealing with history being turned off and on again..

"We’re not happy about the Guild Trader swap times and here’s why…".. yup, my opinion still hasn't changed. Was a bad idea and still is.

Nicky33

Can we have any feedback regarding moving trader bids on Tuesday? The first Tuesday swap went ideal, the second - with slight delay in traders swap. Today there was a delay, a bug on a guild pages (showing Non Hired for everyone) and a quite annoying delay in funds refunding to the guild banks. So it’s getting worse every week. What actual steps were done to improve the trader swap? What are results of monitoring? C’mon, ZOS, trade guilds is the main gold sink in game, the GMs of these guilds deserve some feedback.

Gythral

Nicky33 wrote: »

Can we have any feedback regarding moving trader bids on Tuesday? The first Tuesday swap went ideal, the second - with slight delay in traders swap. Today there was a delay, a bug on a guild pages (showing Non Hired for everyone) and a quite annoying delay in funds refunding to the guild banks. So it’s getting worse every week. What actual steps were done to improve the trader swap? What are results of monitoring? C’mon, ZOS, trade guilds is the main gold sink in game, the GMs of these guilds deserve some feedback.

Not just the GMs but all the players that trade too!