Lost in Translation. How do those English words from TES are viewed by a foreigner?

Syldras

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Yeah, quite French indeed. 2E 582 Echalette Corvette Turbo - this is the way it sounds to me .

I'd ride a Corvette. An Echatere - not so much

I'm wondering how they're named in the French translation? Probably Échatère or something?

Aigym_Hlervu

Heart of Transparent Law - how could I forget of this artifact's name. I understand why could it be called the "heart" - I perceive it as a center, or a core of something. But the two other words leave me speechless. Transparent law? If that "law" is not meant to be a "light anti-tank weapon", but "law" in sense of "order", then, how could a native English speaker come up to calling it transparent? Moreover, considering the nature of the artifact, I see no sense in it's name completely - it could have been called the "Heart of the Crystal Tower" and it would be ok. But the "Heart of Transparent Law"?.. What law is meant here, why is it transparent (as if it can ever be blurred or opaque) and how could that name creator come up to combining these two words? To me those three words are semantically confused to the point that I, being a non-native English reader, cannot extract any meaning from them - it's a word salad !

RaddlemanNumber7

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Heart of Transparent Law - how could I forget of this artifact's name. I understand why could it be called the "heart" - I perceive it as a center, or a core of something. But the two other words leave me speechless. Transparent law? If that "law" is not meant to be a "light anti-tank weapon", but "law" in sense of "order", then, how could a native English speaker come up to calling it transparent? Moreover, considering the nature of the artifact, I see no sense in it's name completely - it could have been called the "Heart of the Crystal Tower" and it would be ok. But the "Heart of Transparent Law"?.. What law is meant here, why is it transparent (as if it can ever be blurred or opaque) and how could that name creator come up to combining these two words? To me those three words are semantically confused to the point that I, being a non-native English reader, cannot extract any meaning from them - it's a word salad !

Transparent Law - A cryptic, but none-the-less revealing name. Typical of High Elf arrogance. A revealing name to those in the know, but a cryptic mystery to knowless men. Also typical of TES lore's cleverness.

"Crystal clear" is an idiom meaning "transparent", either literally or figuratively. In the literal sense, windows can be crystal clear. It implies "clean" or even "pure", "unadulterated". I think, in the context of the crystal at the top of the Crystal Tower, that's the idea that the word "Transparent" is trying to conjuring up.

The rest is basic lore:

Law = Anu, and Anu = crystal.

"Transparent Law" is therefore a crystalline object of pure anuic composition. Hence the need for "divine" energy from a Magna Ge to fix it.

Having the Heart stuck inside him may have impelled Iachesis to get out of the Mundus. Such a thing does not belong there.

Aigym_Hlervu

Yes, the lore is made really in clever way, @RaddlemanNumber7. Though, I speak of a lingual thing here only, I'm quite aware of the lore part of it's origin . In my language we don't call Anu law, or stasis, etc. - it's not enough, he's simply Anu, or a force, or a personification of certain phenomena. It has to be said that full way here, varnished tale can't be round (I hope I used this idiom appropriately ). Anu is perceived as a male person here, an animate object, calling Law or Crystal or any other such thing in names of certain animated objects sounds odd. Like, say, that "Cruel Sword of Might" or "Bow of Accuracy". Yes, it is clear why are they called that way, but nonetheless, translating it makes it odd and unserious. I don't know, though, if you perceive such names being a native speaker the same way. Perhaps, it might sound well to you. Anyway, I speak of perception, to me that "transparent law" sounds just like that "cruel axe of brilliance" - a real word salad .

"Crystal clear" - yeah, we have just the same idiom, but it has to be used that literal way only, i.e. "crystal clear window", as you've said it, or something of that sort. I mean the artifact could be called something like a "Heart of the transparent crystal" or the "Heart of the Crystal Tower" - that would bring much more lingual sense, or better to say, pleasant sounding. It does not sound cryptic to me, that's the point - it sounds simply.. odd. Though, we have no choice, so we all translate the "transparent law" literally here - it sounds odd, but we have no choice.

P.S. How interesting it is to see all those lingual similarities and differences! I recall those "Covenant", "Pact", "Compact" words. Yes, I know the difference, but it's interesting to compare - in my language we have only three words: "contract", "deal" and "agreement" with the first and the latter being completely synonyms. So, while you call the Daggerfall Covenant and the Ebonheart Pact using two different words, we use just one irrespectively of what kind of an agreement it is .

Cundu_Ertur

Transparency actually does have a semi legalistic meaning, aside from meaning simply something you can see through. A political administration is 'transparent' when all of its dealings and connections are above-board and easily discerned. Government transparency is actually something of a requirement, though the lawmakers give themselves loopholes the size of Jupiter to game the system.

So in this context, the Heart of Transparent Law is the core of an easily accessible and openly available system of law that everyone can observe and make sense of.

edit to add: note that a person can have transparent motivations, that is to say that they may think they are being very sly and sneaky but everyone can tell that they are up to something. So that's an intangible thing that is described as being transparent.

wolfie1.0.

The English Language has a lot of great features and frustrations built into it. First is that it is a combination of a lot of other languages and sources. Which in the early days means all of the countries and languages that invaded the British Isles: Britons, Celts, Romans, Vikings/Saxons, Normans, etc. Then Later influenced by the areas that the British conquered & colonized. and then further evolved by additional countries and regions. Due to so many influences we have a LOT of ways to pass along meaning and to say things. Often a word's meaning changes depending context (same sound, same spelling or both). We also have rules that exist, except when we decide that they need to be broken. Due in part to the roots and loose rules of the language it is very changeable and flexible in including new words and meanings. As such different parts of the world are very close to getting to a point where both parties who speak English may not understand each other at some point in the future. US English is similar but also not the same as UK English, or Austrailian Englsih, or South African English, etc.

I mean as of right now there are things you can say in US English that pass along a different meaning than in UK English.IE look up what a Biscuit is and depending on if your in the US or UK you will get vastly different results.

Cundu_Ertur

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

The English Language has a lot of great features and frustrations built into it. First is that it is a combination of a lot of other languages and sources. Which in the early days means all of the countries and languages that invaded the British Isles: Britons, Celts, Romans, Vikings/Saxons, Normans, etc. Then Later influenced by the areas that the British conquered & colonized. and then further evolved by additional countries and regions. Due to so many influences we have a LOT of ways to pass along meaning and to say things. Often a word's meaning changes depending context (same sound, same spelling or both). We also have rules that exist, except when we decide that they need to be broken. Due in part to the roots and loose rules of the language it is very changeable and flexible in including new words and meanings. As such different parts of the world are very close to getting to a point where both parties who speak English may not understand each other at some point in the future. US English is similar but also not the same as UK English, or Austrailian Englsih, or South African English, etc.

I mean as of right now there are things you can say in US English that pass along a different meaning than in UK English.IE look up what a Biscuit is and depending on if your in the US or UK you will get vastly different results.

If you talk about your fanny pack and pants in England, people look at you funny.

Varana

To be honest, quite a bit of the "oddity" or "weirdness" of certain names seems to be just poetic or figurative use of language. Law can be transparent - not literally, but you can guess the intended meaning, i.e. a law that is easy to understand, or to completely comprehend in its entirety. (Plus the lore aspect with Anu.) A person can be transparent, i.e. you can see their motivations and actions. A system can be transparent, and so on.
And the second aspect in this: Language can be evocative instead of literal. A certain combination of words may not result in a meaningful term - but they can evoke certain associations, paint a picture in the mind, so to speak. The "Cruel Axe of Brilliance" may not be a very ... meaningful combination but it hints at certain connotations - you think of a certain kind of cruelty, i.e. not that of dark torture dungeons; or you think of a certain kind of brilliance, i.e. not one with benign intentions or actions. (And this works even better with words that were actually intended to be used in this way. )
I mean, half of poetry works on that level. You're not supposed to dissect these down to some basic meaning. Language is much more than that.

Ysbriel

You think naming a city Daggerfall is weird?

Guess what these mountains in Puerto Rico are called..

Aigym_Hlervu

That might be the trouble, @Varana - I can't see anything poetic in that "transparent law" phrase. It's just like that Star Wars "The Invisible Hand" spaceship - translating it into my language literally brings nothing poetic, but if I change both of those two words into their poetic analogue it becomes much better than it sounds in English even. A very beautiful name for a ship, indeed. The difference, I suppose, is that the SW creators did not bother to change those "invisible" and "hand" into their poetic versions (if they ever exist, of course) that makes me at least to translate it literally the first time I see it. Well, it's just an example and it doesn't work with the "transparent law" because it has nothing common with poetic sounding at all to me.

Ysbriel wrote: »

You think naming a city Daggerfall is weird?

Guess what these mountains in Puerto Rico are called..

Wow . I'm surprised it is the official name . In my country it's ok to name such things casually, but to call things like that officially is something not common here. Hmm..

Katlefiya

Syldras wrote: »

I just realize how rare "real" short forms of names are in German. There's no form for Gerhard while you'd probably just say Gary in the US. Thomas only has the child-like Tommi, not Tom. We have no Stu, Meg, Pat or Bob.

The short form of Gerhard is Gerd.

Syldras

Katlefiya wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I just realize how rare "real" short forms of names are in German. There's no form for Gerhard while you'd probably just say Gary in the US. Thomas only has the child-like Tommi, not Tom. We have no Stu, Meg, Pat or Bob.

The short form of Gerhard is Gerd.

Do people use it as a nickname for people called Gerhard? I only know it as a seperate name.

Katlefiya

Syldras wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I just realize how rare "real" short forms of names are in German. There's no form for Gerhard while you'd probably just say Gary in the US. Thomas only has the child-like Tommi, not Tom. We have no Stu, Meg, Pat or Bob.

The short form of Gerhard is Gerd.

Do people use it as a nickname for people called Gerhard? I only know it as a seperate name.

Yes. For example, people called our former chancellor Gerd. There even was a radio comedy programme named after him: the "Gerd-Show"

Syldras

Katlefiya wrote: »

Yes. For example, people called our former chancellor Gerd. There even was a radio comedy programme named after him: the "Gerd-Show"

I always understood that as mocking him

Aigym_Hlervu

Decided to share this video with you - prepare yourself to laugh much as I did it when some friends of mine shared it with me . That's how different English can be . Have a good day there, guys!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFgiewcRBZ4