Lost in Translation. How do those English words from TES are viewed by a foreigner?

Aigym_Hlervu

Ok, let's be honest - not all of us here are native English speakers, not all of us speak two or more foreign languages. Even less people ever try to feel the very essense of those words they speak. I'm not a native English speaker, but this language is the one I've been speaking almost every day since.. Well, I don't even remember those times quite well actually. Anyway, sometimes I catch myself on a thought that some words sound too odd (Todd ?..) for a foreigner if.. I can't say "translated".. transported.. Nah, that's a bad word too.. Ok - translated into my own language. I don't mean those meaningful and poetic translations I use myself while translating, say, my favourite of Robert Frost rhymes into my language - I mean literal one. The translation of a word's essence as it sounds. I'd better give you some of the examples in order to be understood properly. But first, I want you to keep in mind, that all these examples down below show you how do I treat those words being a non-English speaker when looking into it in details. That doesn't mean all of us look into it that way. What I do is just paying more attention to details and essence of words. Sometimes it's funny indeed . One of my trades and hobbies is interpretation ant translatation, and, of course, I know the rules of translation. This thread is just an attempt to break them just for fun . To see how do we all perceive the very sound and the structure of the same words being all that different. Perhaps, this thread would be likewise good to some fellow players willing to figure out some things they wanted to ask the native speakers too, or to those who would like to share some specifics on their languages.

1. Buoyant Armigers - in some languages I do speak a bit , it is translated as "Kriegswappenträger" - a coat of arms wielder. Where is that coat of arms an Armiger wields? Haven't seen any of them! In some other languages it is even "better" - "Buoyant Armiger" is literally translated as a complex word meaning "funny weapon bearer" or "unsinkable weapon wielder". It was the reason those guys were actually called with a word meaning "The Eternal Guard" there instead. I like this naming much, at least it sounds much better to me and reconciles with a status of the personal guard of a god. So, could anyone explain what do you feel hearing that "Buoyant Armiger"? I understand it is someone who's armed and never backs down, but since these two words do not reconcile that good being together in my language, to me they mean "someone who's armed but can't get drowned" . A weird thing. Ok, let's move on.
2. Almalexia's Hands (also Her Hands). So where are Her Fingers, Her Nails, Her.. Eyebrows or.. (sorry-sorry) Her Arse ? Why couldn't they have been called simply "Almalexia's Guard"? There are two words for the "hand" in my language - a casual and poetic one meaning the "hand". So, I have to use that poetic one, but nonetheless, we don't use that word to name someone's personal henchmen.
3. Redguard. Yeah, it's a misspelling of the "Ra Gada" (a good name, by the way). But why the "Redguard"? It reminds me of that Chinese military all the time I hear or read that word.
4. Daggerfall - "Dolchfall"? A fall of a dagger as a city's name? Is that really a good name for a city? How did the man ever come up to combine these two words?
5. Ghost Fence - why the fence? In my language the word "fence" is a relatively short structure that encloses an area, typically outdoors, and is usually constructed from posts that are connected by boards, wire, rails or netting. I know the difference between a wall and a fence, but the "fence" sounds too pathetically for a structure surrounding Red Mountain. The Ghost Fence is a solid structure in spite of it's sections made of magickal energy instead of physical materials - so, technically it could have been called the wall. A fence is more suitable for a private house, not for such a great structure. The Ghost Wall (like that German "Geistwall") or "Ghost Reach" could have been much better I think. Hah, I remember that "Improved Fencing" made me smile when figured out what that "fencing" actually meant.
6. Hammerfell. That sounds funny to me indeed - "a hammer fell". Yeah, I know what hammer fell there and etc., just tell me - does that really sounds well to you, English speakers, to name the whole land by those noun and a verb in past tense? If that phrase was used in my language, that would be really odd. Still, we all just say it the way you do. But why not Hammerfall, what's the essence of it's lingual difference from Daggerfall?
7. Sea of Ghosts - perfect naming!
8. Yokuda - perfect naming!
9. Argonia as well as Black Marsh - perfect naming! We have an even better sounding word for the "Black Marsh" here.
10. Morrowind - well, it sounds good in English. It sounds good in my language if said in English either. But if you take those two words "morrow" and "wind" separately to understand it's meaning, it turns out to be a weird word to name the entire country. Resdayn was much better - no sense at all, just some letters placed in unusual order.
11. Champion - in my language that word is used in the sphere of sports competitions only. Achilles was the champion of Agamemnon, but we simply call him a "warrior of Agamemnon". It's too unusual for me to be a "Champion of Vivec" - what sports am I a champion in there? Champion points - the same thing. "Veteran points" sounds much better.
12. Alliance Points - is that a good way to name a currency? To me it's just like "United States points" instead of dollars, "Europoints", "NATO points" or something.. If it is "points" you get in a game of sports or something, then what points did they mean regarding money?
13. Gold - you say "X gold" meaning X amount of gold. We can't say that in my language. Well, video game players do say it, but otherwise it's a weird phrase. We say "X golden coins" or "X coins" because the "gold" is something we can't count piece by piece, so to say "X gold" or "X of gold" is a bit odd like "X sky" or "X water" - what unit of water do you mean? Gallons, cups, bottles?..
14. Ald Daedroth, Bal Ur, Bal Fell, Kogoruhn, Tel Aruhn, Balmora, Vos, Gnisis, Alten Corimont, Addadshashanammu (my favourite ), Almurbalarammi, Ashalmimilkala, Assurnabitashpi, Nchurdamz, Arkngthand, Arkngthunch-Sturdumz, Bamz-Amschend, etc. - perfect naming! Makes no corresponding sense IRL at all, but sounds really good and easy to pronounce.
15. High Elves - does that mean "Tall Elves" or it is "Superior Elves"? It's very unclear to me what was meant originally.
16. Wayrest. Wegesruh. "The rest of the way"? Another "good" name for a city.
17. Whiterun - who runs, where he runs, why is he white?.. Saarthal, Morthal are good names for those cities. But why the "Whiterun"? Author's remark: explained in the replies.
18. Solitude - should be somewhere in the vicinity of "Hermitry", "Badmood" and "Narcissism" (Narsis?).
19. Nightblade - is it like a night-stool, i.e. a blade used at night, or.. Why a sentient being is called with that word?
20. Blades - the same thing. That "Blade" again". What's so specific do you have with that word? Why not the "Sticks" or "Blade Edges"? Does the "Blade" as the name for an officer of the Imperial Intelligence Service sound good to English speakers?
21. Scaled Court, Court of Bedlam, Feathered Court - what court is meant here? A court of judges, a royal court, a tennis court? Anyway, I couldn't find any of suitable meanings. Author's remark: explained in the replies.
22. Walker, Shadow Walker - the word "walker" is untranslatable to my language. The closest one resembles with the "pedestrian". A "shadow pedestrian" - yeah, that sounds brave.. "The one who walks" - why was this word ever invented in English ? We do have words for "crawler", "flyer", "jumper" (though they're all very casual, funny, and are used very rarely) - but not for the "walker".
23. Sword-singers - how could have these two words be ever combined? I understand, it is a metaphor - a sword "sings" while you swing it. It's ok. But what is not ok here, is that it never makes that sword wielder a "singer" himself. If your wife swings a frying pan, would she become a "Frying-pan-singer"? No, I guess.
24. Lingual stress. I know it's no problem to English speakers - nobody even thinks of the correct stressing in such words like "Falmer", "Dunmer", "Dwemer", etc. But trust me, I know some languages the native speakers fight holy wars for being right in their "Falmer" instead of "Falmer", "Dwemer" instead of "Dwemer", "Dunmer" instead of "Dunmer", etc. According to the rules of my language, complex words make stress on the "main" word within it. Those guys might not have that rule in theirs. But how does that work, say, in French? Is it still "Dunmer" there?

What specifics do your languages have regarding some English words of TES?

SirAndy

Moin auch

Buoyant Armigers = Treibende Knechte

Englisch wörtlich zu übersetzen ist ein fruchtloses Unterfangen ...

Cundu_Ertur

13. Gold - you say "X gold" meaning X amount of gold. We can't say that in my language. Well, video game players do say it, but out of it it's a weird phrase. We say "X golden coins" or "X coins" because the "gold" is something we can't count piece by piece, so to say "X gold" or "X of gold" is a bit odd like "X sky" or "X water" - what water? Gallons, cups or bottles?

In English you can say the same with silver, sometimes. Gold can refer to coins or loot in general.

17. Whiterun - who runs, where he runs, why is he white?.. Saarthal, Morthal - a good name for a city. But why "Whiterun"?
'Run' can mean a creek (pronounced 'crick' in most places I've lived), especially one with fast moving water. What's running? The water is running. You should note there is a fast moving creek near Whiterun, as well as a larger river with rapids. It's actually a good name. In Northern Virginia there's a series of 'runs' that flow into the Potomac, you may have heard of one of them, Bull Run. It's not a place where Bulls race, it's a creek.
In Germany there's 'fluss.' That could be the Rhine, or some tiny little trickle you wouldn't even think was an actual thing (I'm thinking of you, Kinz Fluss).

Aigym_Hlervu

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

17. Whiterun - who runs, where he runs, why is he white?.. Saarthal, Morthal - a good name for a city. But why "Whiterun"?
'Run' can mean a creek (pronounced 'crick' in most places I've lived), especially one with fast moving water. What's running? The water is running. You should note there is a fast moving creek near Whiterun, as well as a larger river with rapids. It's actually a good name. In Northern Virginia there's a series of 'runs' that flow into the Potomac, you may have heard of one of them, Bull Run. It's not a place where Bulls race, it's a creek.
In Germany there's 'fluss.' That could be the Rhine, or some tiny little trickle you wouldn't even think was an actual thing (I'm thinking of you, Kinz Fluss).

Wow. You've explained everything! Now I know the way to translate Whiterun's name into my language. A good sounding and too localized style as if Whiterun would have been located here . A creek.. I should have guessed it myself . Thank you, Cundu! Regarding Bull Run - what's the "Bull" part in it? Is it a river called the Bull River?

Cundu_Ertur

Bull Run is a creek that flows from a spring into the Occoquan River, which flows into the Potomac. I don't know all of the details of the naming of it, but there are other runs nearby: Cedar Run, Broad Run, Cub Run, and Kettle Run. There's also Four Mile Run (though I suspect it isn't four miles long, but that's just a guess), Sugarland Run, Difficult Run, Pimmit Run, and more besides. Most of the names are from when settlers arrived, and they just named stuff kind of randomly. Some things (like Potomac or Occoquan) they took the local Indian name, but smaller features would just pick up names over time, some of those names were goofy. Who knows, maybe some guy's bull drowned in it or something.

And I looked up Four Mile Run, and I was right: it's actually over 9 miles long.

PrayingSeraph

Fun thread TC. So I'm not the only one who thinks of China's military when I see/hear "Redguard".

max_only

Hammerfell and Hammerfall are two different cities.

https://classic-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Hammerfall

bluebird

An interesting writeup! Translating names, especially fantasy names can be really hard. If you're interested in onomastics (the study of names), here are some fun facts.

1) Topographical place name components
A lot of place names have several components, many of which relate to the topography of the region. E.g. Edinburgh = a burgh at Eidyn (burgh is a Germanic term for fort), and 'Dun' in its Gaelic name Dun Eideann also means 'fort'. In some languages the order of the elements is reversed (as you can see with Edinburgh / Dun Eideann). This results in some funny tautological names, like Barrhill, in which 'barr' is a Celtic word for 'hill'... so the place essentially means 'Hill hill'.


A 'categorical presupposition' is an assumption that readers/hearers of a name will make about the type of that name. This is mostly unconscious in native speakers, but somehow we all know that 'Mittens' is a pet, 'Whateverton' is a settlement not a lake, and if our contact's name is 'Namina' we should likely look for a female person.

Many fantasy names emulate these naming conventions, and by adhering to these categorical presuppositions, they can make their fantasy realms seem more realistic. Stormhaven, Mournhold, Shadowfen, Glenumbra, Valenwood, Rivenspire, etc. all operate with the same mechanism as many real life place names. On that note, 'fell' means a 'hill or a highland' (from Old Norse fjal - you can see this in real life British place names such as Scafell or Furness Fells) so Hammerfell I believe is trying to be a topographical 'fell' not the verb 'fall'. But this homonym (fell (n.)=fell (v.)) brings us to the second point.

2) Associative vs literal meaning
Names are often meaningful badges of identity, and this meaning can be created in a variety of ways. In addition to etymological meaning, there is also associative meaning. Elizabeth and Isabel for example have the same etymology and are perfectly valid names to call a girl in Britain, but Elizabeth has different associations.

This comes into play with Hammerfell, which conjures up the image of hammers falling (Onto anvils, perhaps, in a nation that values its craftsmanship? Of tools? Weapons? Are they industrially advanced and diligent? Hammerfell's associations wouldn't really fit a magical land of singers and dancers for example). So associations can be just as powerful or even more powerful in giving 'character' to a name, as its literal components.


3) Literal translation = loss of nuanced meaning
Therefore, translators (especially of fantasy works) may find it useful to capture the 'spirit' of a name rather than its literal meaning. Buoyant Armigers (and it's hilarious that some languages translated this as 'unsinkable' lol), can mean cheerful too, as well as successful and rising, in addition to literal buoyancy.

4) 'Otherness' through language.
Another useful method in creating certain associations and vibes, is to use linguistic similarity. Names that are 'legible' to the reader are going to feel more mundane and close, whereas more 'alien' sounding names will be more mythical or even foreboding. We can see this in Shakespeare's Tempest for example, which has Miranda, Antonio, Ferdinand (Germanic and Latinate origin) for the human characters; but Sycorax, Caliban and Ariel (Hellenic, Indo-Aryan and Semitic origin) for the 'deviant' supernatural characters.

You can see the same thing with cultures in ESO. Auridon, Alinor, Deshaan, Arteum all sound more mystical and alien than Anvil or Crosswych. There is even potential for depicting colonial dynamics, where the natives of the land have their own terms for themselves, the land and their settlements (Saxhleel, Xal Ithix) but due to foreign conquest those are referred to with a name in the common tongue (e.g. Jel and Tamrielic Argonian names). A good example of making 'alien' sounding names is Dwemer, such as Rhtngabnworcestershiregznulft.

Edaphon

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

6. Hammerfell. That sounds funny to me indeed - "a hammer fell". Yeah, I know what hammer fell there and etc., just tell me - does that really sounds well to you, English speakers, to name the whole land by those noun and a verb in past tense? If that phrase was used in my language, that would be really odd. Still, we all just say it the way you do. But why not Hammerfall, what's the essence of it's lingual difference from Daggerfall?

A fell is also a type of landscape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

12. Alliance Points - is that a good way to name a currency? To me it's just like "United States points" instead of dollars, "Europoints", "NATO points" or something.. If it is "points" you get in a game of sports or something, then what points did they mean regarding money?

It's not only the name of the currency but also the name of the experience points you need to level up your alliance rank. They probably named the exp points first and decided to use the same name for the currency.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

16. Wayrest. Wegesruh. "The rest of the way"? Another "good" name for a city.

Rest as in 'to rest', not the remainder of something. So, instead of "the rest of the way" it's more like "a place along the way (from place A to place B ) where you can rest".

Cundu_Ertur

Well, Hammerfall is a Nord family name. I don't think there's a city, though. It should be noted that 'fell' can be the past tense of 'fall' but it can also mean deadly or dangerous. Think of the fell beasts from LotR, or the phrase 'one fell swoop.' Fell also has meanings as rocky outcrops, or animal pelts, or ground up ore.

Cundu_Ertur

Edaphon wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

16. Wayrest. Wegesruh. "The rest of the way"? Another "good" name for a city.

Rest as in 'to rest', not the remainder of something. So, instead of "the rest of the way" it's more like "a place along the way (from place A to place B ) where you can rest".

Ruh means rest as in relax, so, yeah, I think you're agreeing here.

College German to the rescue!

Aigym_Hlervu

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

16. Wayrest. Wegesruh. "The rest of the way"? Another "good" name for a city.

Rest as in 'to rest', not the remainder of something. So, instead of "the rest of the way" it's more like "a place along the way (from place A to place B ) where you can rest".

Ruh means rest as in relax, so, yeah, I think you're agreeing here.

College German to the rescue!

That was the thing I wondered myself - it was so clear in German, but so incompehensive in English to me, though I've been aware of the both meanings . I guess that was.. a lingual glitch or something. I hope some French guys come here to share their views on those words. Always wondered how is that ever possible to write so many letters and say only two or three of them. What if the Dwemer language worked the same way ? Say, what if the "Arkngthunch-Sturdumz" sounded like "Ark-Starum" or something.

Aznarb

In game where people of different native speaking while come across, I always think name of NPC / Location / Skill should be made in a way to be the same for everyone, it made the discussion about it easier for everyone.

I learned English (well some part still not that great) in my 10 year spend in Lineage 2 where the whole game was in English (no translation for anyone) and it was easy to speak with stranger cuz all skill, npc and city name was the same for everyone.

But obviously the story was for most, totally unknow because of this (not a lot of story in L2 but still).

That why I came to think like this, all Name from important thing, should not in the need to be translated to make sens.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

16. Wayrest. Wegesruh. "The rest of the way"? Another "good" name for a city.

Rest as in 'to rest', not the remainder of something. So, instead of "the rest of the way" it's more like "a place along the way (from place A to place B ) where you can rest".

Ruh means rest as in relax, so, yeah, I think you're agreeing here.

College German to the rescue!

That was the thing I wondered myself - it was so clear in German, but so incompehensive in English to me, though I've been aware of the both meanings . I guess that was.. a lingual glitch or something. I hope some French guys come here to share their views on those words. Always wondered how is that ever possible to write so many letters and say only two or three of them. What if the Dwemer language worked the same way ? Say, what if the "Arkngthunch-Sturdumz" sounded like "Ark-Starum" or something.

As a French, I can tell you than Dwemer name are most of the time just impossible to spell ! But in a way it make them even more secret and I want to dig more in their lore hehe :>
I even find a book where a (high elve ? don't remember) was explaining that for speaking Dwemer you have to fill your mouth and be drunk to start xD

I'll try to explain for some word :

Buoyant Armigers : Les Exaltés => "very intense, in a stade of exaltation" Since it's tied to religion I imagine them as some knight of Templar Order but in Dumner version. They fight for their religion interest.

Redguard : Rougegarde, Rouge + Garde, pretty literal translation sound weird, I mean, they'r not red, not skin or armor, so, yeah, weird a bit to me.

Daggerfall : Daguefilante ; Dague Filante => hum, how to explain this one, it's like a dagger in the middle of his course after you throw it. Maybe "flying dagger", but no, not as accurate, just imagine a dagger you throw and you'll understand how it sound in French.

Morrowind, Hammerfell and High Rock, are not translated in French, dunno why, probably cuz it sound better in English.

Whiterun : Blancherive ; Blanche Rives : white creek, pretty literal here too.

Solitude : Solitude, it the exact same word in both language ^^ ~Loneliness, seclusion, retirement.

Nightblade : Lamenoire ; Lame Noire => Black blade if we goes literal, but it's mostly for sound, many "dark" word end-up in "black", noire in French instead of "sombre" like it should.

I'm a bit lazy to do all of them but I hope I satisfy your curiosity

Ratzkifal

Isn't Daggerfall - Dolchsturz instead of Dolchfall?
Eitherway both Fall and Sturz refer to a waterfall that is there. The waterfall might be called "Dagger" or "Daggerfall" itself or perhaps the river is called "Dagger" and that's where the "Dagger" literally falls.

Ratzkifal

Sword-Singers are actually very fittingly named if you consider the lore. They follow the "Way of the Sword" which is also known to them as the "Song of the Blade". "Song" refers to "story" in this context as stories have been told through songs and ballads for hundreds of years before the printing press made books more available. So the followers of the Song of the Blade are the Singers. The Sword-Singers.

And then there is all that speculation about the summoning of a Shehai (Spirit Sword) being related to tonal magic and the Thu'um which would make Sword-Singing a lot more literal.

Eiagra

For "Almalexia's Hands" referring to a special or elite group, think first of what your own hands do -- whatever it is that you need them to do. Thus you can think of this group in the same manner: They do whatever Almalexia needs done. Kind of like a divine agent.

It would be kind of amusing to see a literal pair of hands walking around Tamriel, though.

Major_Lag

Elsweyr - this is one of the odd cases where the usual conventions for naming places are not adhered to, and the result is untranslateable in many (most?) languages without completely butchering the original pun.
Trying to translate this into my native language would sound ridiculously contrived at best, but in a moronically stupid way instead of in a silly way as in the original form.

Antediluvian Vaults (the name of a section of the Imperial City sewers) - although it is a perfectly reasonable name for a place, and it can be faithfully (and literally) translated into my language, it does not make sense in its context.
"Antediluvian" refers to a certain time period in the Earth's history, which - AFAIK - does not have any analogy in the case of Nirn.

Sejanus Outpost - what in Oblivion's name is a "sejanus"?
It sounds like a very odd name to give to a person, assuming that the outpost is named after one (compare Bleaker's Outpost for example), yet it also does not make sense in terms of usual naming conventions for places... unless you are referring to a certain anatomical part - and yes, that is a frequent running joke in Cyrodiil zone chat, thank you very much.

Cold fire (as in, "Cold fire ballista" or other siege weapon) - I presume it's shorthand for "Coldharbour fire", which would make a lot more sense, but as it is it sounds silly.
It's even more hilarious, because in my language "cold fire" is the literal translation of the common name for a firework known as a "sparkler" in English speaking countries... which is the most non-threatening form of "fire" imaginable to the average person.
Even a burning match is more hazardous to handle than a sparkler ("cold fire"), which makes this a really silly name to call one of the most powerful siege weapons known to Nirn.

Nightblade (the class) - this is an interesting case, because in my language the word for "assassin" would be literally translated as "covert killer" - which, as it happens, would be the perfect way to describe a "nighblade" as they exist in TESO.

myskyrim26

Buoyant Armigers : Buoyant is translated to my language as the one who floats. Rough example: a ballon. We see Vivec floating in the air, this is one of his symbols. His Armigers can't float in the air, but they are poets, they float in clouds, in air, in some other way - a poetic way.

bluebird

Major_Lag wrote: »

Antediluvian Vaults (the name of a section of the Imperial City sewers) - although it is a perfectly reasonable name for a place, and it can be faithfully (and literally) translated into my language, it does not make sense in its context. "Antediluvian" refers to a certain time period in the Earth's history, which - AFAIK - does not have any analogy in the case of Nirn.

Antediluvian means 'before the flood' referring to the Biblical great flood that hard-reset humanity. That said, it is commonly used to refer to things that are very very old. So the general 'old' sense can apply in Nirn too, but it is also possible that the Imperial Sewers were once flooded, and these Vaults survived from before that flood.

Sejanus Outpost - what in Oblivion's name is a "sejanus"?
It sounds like a very odd name to give to a person, assuming that the outpost is named after one (compare Bleaker's Outpost for example), yet it also does not make sense in terms of usual naming conventions for places...

Sejanus was a real life Roman politician who was famously executed for an attempted coup against the Emperor Tiberius. He is also the subject of the Early Modern English drama, 'Sejanus His Fall' written by Ben Jonson. It's possible that an Imperial called Sejanus existed in Nirn too, and got an Outpost named after himself.

Cold fire (as in, "Cold fire ballista" or other siege weapon) - I presume it's shorthand for "Coldharbour fire", which would make a lot more sense, but as it is it sounds silly.

Cold-fire atronachs, ballistae, nixads, etc are literally infused with cold fire, which comes from Takubar, an extremely cold pocket realm of Oblivion. From the Daedra Dossier: Cold-Flame Atronach lore book:

'In place of the extreme heat of Infernace, where molten rock flows like water, in Takubar (as we may call it for the sake of brevity) the bedrock is subjected to a cosmic degree of cold, causing its material bonds to slide apart and the stone to flow like cold lava. It was there in Takubar that I finally saw, in the insect-eyed lenses of the transliminal scanner, images of gyrating atronachs that burned with cold blue flames. I had found what I sought.'

Nightblade (the class) - this is an interesting case, because in my language the word for "assassin" would be literally translated as "covert killer" - which, as it happens, would be the perfect way to describe a "nighblade" as they exist in TESO.

Regarding Nightblade, and OP's point about the 'blade' being odd to refer to a person, mercenaries are often referred to as a 'hired gun'. Naturally, that doesn't mean that Boris the mob boss borrowed some literal guns, but refers to actual people who wield those guns, who sold their gun-slinging services.

Danel_Vadan

Vivec's warriors were called Buoyant Armigers becase they're gay samurai, as described by one of the devs that created them.

Taloros

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

4. Daggerfall - "Dolchfall"? A fall of a dagger as a city's name? Is that really a good name for a city? How did the man ever come up to combine these two words?

I can offer a simple explanation for that:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dagger_Falls

doomette

This might be my new favorite thread. Thanks for sharing your perspective (and being funny about it as well), it was super interesting.

Faulgor

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

Vivec's warriors were called Buoyant Armigers becase they're gay samurai, as described by one of the devs that created them.

I wouldn't really say "gay", even though they are described as Vivec's lovers, because a) Vivec is kinda whatever he feels like at the time, and b) there are female and male Buoyant Armigers.

SirAndy wrote: »

Moin auch

Buoyant Armigers = Treibende Knechte

Englisch wörtlich zu übersetzen ist ein fruchtloses Unterfangen ...

I also find it impossible to translate into German.
Buoyant just has such a great onomatopoeia to it that you don't see in words like schweben , schwimmen oder treiben.
Armiger might be literally translated to Wappenträger, but that's not snappy at all. Knecht is much better IMO, although it sounds very submissive.

I think a funny - not literal, but kind of thematic - translation would be Schweberknecht. Hear me out!
We keep the Knecht, and prefix it with Schweber - a slightly awkward construction meaning "someone who floats".
The kick is that it sounds like the word Weberknecht, which is German for daddy longlegs, which alludes to Mephala as the anticipation of Vivec.

Elwendryll

Being french, I was really confused when I switched my game to English a few years ago.

Wayrest is called Haltevoie, "Halt Way", and the jump from "Rest" to "Halt", even though it makes sense (you're just taking a break on your way), wasn't one I would have expected.

redlink1979

Many of the "issues" you describe, start to be "issues" when people translate names literally: you should never translate names ( first names, surnames, races, locations, ect) despite of the language you speak.

I think translation of names was a really bad move made by ZOS

Khenarthi

I'm foreign and play my games in English all the time, so I find this thread fascinating.

I always wondered at the Buoyant part of Armigers - to me, buoyancy means ability to float, so I assumed it was something not to take literally (all that armour makes them look pretty easy to sink).

All other names are best not translated anyway, once you're around the English language for long enough you start to get a feel for things pretty much like native speakers do.

Varana

Many of these "weird" names become significantly less weird when you consider how real-life places are named. Place names just work that way.

I live near a city called "Würzburg" (in Bavaria). At first, this seems pretty straightforward: -burg is the standard ending for a castle or fortification, and würz- is related to "Gewürz", i.e. spices. So a translation would be something like "Spiceborough". And accordingly, in the Middle Ages they latinised the name as Herbipolis (spice town).

Except, that is probably all nonsense. We're not entirely sure; maybe the name comes from a Celtic lord names Virtius or something like that, maybe it's from an old Germanic meaning of "the lord's castle", or other possibilities - but it's most probably not actually from Gewürz/spices, even though it really sounds like that now. And for several hundred years, people thought it had something to do with spices, so they kept the name close to that word even when it changed over the centuries.

So asking "how the hell did they come up with a combination of words like that" can be very misleading. "Redguard" is actually a really good example of that - as you noted, it has absolutely nothing to do with either Red or Guard but is a corruption of Ra Gada.

That's the power of folk etymology, i.e. not actual linguistic research but what the majority of internet comments on etymology and language history consist of: it sounds kinda similar so it clearly must be connected.

So how did "Morrowind" come about? "The winds of the east", maybe. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with either but is a remnant of something else. It now sounds similar to "wind of the next day" or something like that, so a translation should go with that, even though it doesn't result in a meaningful word. Old names don't have to be meaningful words any more.

Also, all these "foreign" names like Ashurnabitashpi, or Nchuleftingth, or Lillandril, are exactly the same as Whiterun or Wayrest or Windhelm - just in languages you don't understand. To someone who only speaks Dwemer, "Arkngthand" may be a really mundane name like "mountain hole" or whatever, while "Mournhold" would sound totally exotic and strange.

That transitions into my pet peeve - "bUt NaMeS sHoUlNt Be TrAnSlAtEd ThEy SoUnD nOt LiKe FaNtAsY aNyMoRe!!111!!"
Well, d'uh, that's exactly the point. To a non-English speaker, "Daggerfall" is a strange combination of syllables with a hint of exoticism. To an English speaker, it's a mundane word even if a bit weird like many place names.
Translating that makes the experience of the name the same - "Dolchsturz" is a combination of totally mundane words even if a bit weird. Much of the "fantasy feel" we get from English-language names is already the result of experiencing works from another language.

And some remarks about the other things:
"Alliance Points" is just a gaming term, it has nothing to do with ingame terminology. It's the same as "hitpoints", or "armour rating", or "critical hit chance". It's gaming language.

Yes, "champion" in other languages may not refer to what English can mean with "champion". That's why it should be translated with something else.

"Scaled Court" etc.: the "court" here is the entourage of a lord, or the place where a lord lives. As in "at the court of Louis XIV, nobles were obliged to..."

"High Elves": High has the connotation of "superior, pure, powerful" here, as in "high nobility", "high king", "high mass", or in German the "Hochmeister" (Grandmaster) of the Teutonic Order. "High {Race}" has been a staple of fantasy worlds at least from Tolkien onwards.

VaranisArano

The "white" in Whiterun likely refers to the nearby White River. Possibly it's a creek flowing from the White, or it has "white water" from rapids.

An explanation for "Redguard" as related to the Ansei, when the guardians of the people were red with blood in their eyes: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguards,_Their_History_and_Their_Heroes

Antediluvian Vaults - since the technical Earth meaning of pre-biblical flood makes no sense on Nirn, it probably means "ancient" or perhaps they are vaults built before the sewers had water in them that were later incorporated and flooded at some point.

The Blades take their name from those distinctive Akaviri katanas they use. They also serve as the Emperor's swords, defending him and dealing covertly/overtly with his enemies.

Hymzir

Words are fluid things. I'm not a native English speaker either, and while I have some knowledge of several languages, I would not claim to be particularly multi-lingual. I do know English to a fair degree though, enough to be familiar with idioms and expressions of said language. And to my ear, all of the things you found odd, sound perfectly sensible and fine in an English context. And yes, some off them are curious forms of expressing a notion, but not alien to the format and manner of the language.

It's not just about looking at them from a foreign perspective either. It's an inherent attribute of all languages. If you do stop and think about what words actually mean, one can find curios constructs and odd connotations associated with many terms and common words. It is often a case of what nuance is sought, or in what context said word is intoned. I find this often enough in my native tongue too - I say something quite common and sensible in an everyday context, when a sudden flash of insight hits me, and I spend a moment or two musing about the etymological oddity of a perfectly reasonable everyday expression

As an example, let us look at the term Blade, which you found so odd. Blade is actually derived from the Old English blæd, which essentially means leaf, or something that is like a leaf.(Do note the this is a simplification, since there are several other words and terms that influenced the way the word was adopted into English) A particularly interesting aspect of English as a language is that it is conductive to using nouns as other words - adjectives, verbs and adverbs. Thus the "blade" portion of a "bladed" weapon was so called because it was essentially similar in form to a blæd, or leaf. And from there, the use of the descriptive term, as the term itself for the thing, became a thing. And now blade is a noun signifying a particular type of pointy stick. And from there it spread to other uses, usually when referring to something flat that radiated towards a direction and a point, and/or tapered on it's sides to form an edge. This gave us propeller and fan blades, and even shoulder blades (not those things good old Shredder had on his pauldrons, but the bony things inside your shoulder.) and the blades on ice skates.

"But why Nightblades, why The Blades?!", you ask... Well because that's the way English works - see somewhere around 18th century, some clever fellows though it hip to refer to certain kind of dashing and cunning and altogether fab fellows as blades. Sort of in the same way you could call a crafty and smart, and altogether professional dude who gets things done, a cutter.

Being called a blade is something where you project the connotations associated with the pointy stick to a person or a job. A Nightblade is the fellow that lurks in the dark, striking you down with a sudden gleam of his blade. The Blades on the other hand are the fellows who wield the semi-mythical Akaviri warblades, hence they are known as the Blades. Just as the fellows who instigated the Boxer Rebellion were called Boxers. Not because they were working in the packaging industry, but due to them being practitioners of Chinese boxing, also know ans Kung-Fu. (And boxing itself is derived from an old dutch word meaning a blow, as in to land a hit on something, not as in breathe heavily onto something.)

Or lets think about fencing for a moment - You said that Ghost Fence sounds inappropriate to your ear, mainly because the direct translation of the word fence in your language is only associated with a particular form of barrier. Namely the picket fence sort of thing, or that is what I surmised from your description. But the term fence is used more widely in English, and can indeed point to a number of different types of barriers. As a term in actually derives from the word defense, as a form of something that cordons off an area and defends it. And from there it went to mean a type of swordplay, since you were "fencing" i.e. defending, yourself with a buckler and shield, or "fencing of your foes" - guarding yourself against attackers. Incidentally, it is also the term used for trade in pilfered goods, because some 17th century blokes though it was clever to do their illicit deeds under the "defense of secrecy."

As for why "Ghost Fence" and not Ghost Wall--- Well, I suppose you could argue that the Ghost Fence cordons of the area of danger, and thus it's not a wall meant to stop or halt something from progressing. A wall is an obstacle that hinders and deters, a fence is something that encloses to protect or to isolate. Or at the very least, you could make an argument for such an interpretation.

But in truth, I bet the name was chosen simply because the person who came up with it preferred the way it sounds over Ghost Wall or Ghost Barrier. And while were at it, why Ghost? Why not Specter, or Spirit, or Wraith, or Phantom? Probably because Ghost Fence just sounded best for the author, though if you dig into the various nuances and etymologies of each term, I bet you can come up with an explanation for the choice if you look for one long enough.

I could go over each of the things you brought up and delve in deeply with each of them, but this thing is long enough and others have dealt with many of the terms I intended to remark on, so I'll just drop one more thing to ponder - the use of the Term Hand. I do not know where it derives or how it came to be, but the usage of hand as an agent or operative of some other entity is a long established tradition in the English language. Being the right hand man of someone is fairly common idiom, and not that long ago there was this tv series with a horribly botched ending, based on a book series that will 'prolly never be finished, that made a bid deal about being the "hand of the king or the queen."

Describing someone acting on your behalf, a direct agent of your will, as a Hand is just something that has been done in English for.. .well for quite some time. Thus The Hands of Almalexia makes perfect sense. They might not call henchmen as hands in your native tongue, but they do in English, because of that whole "right hand man" being used to describe your most trusted and crucial assistant. And based on a quick google, such notions date right down to idioms used way back in ancient Rome an Greece. AS an aside - in my native tongue, the term hand is associated with a certain degree of ineptitude, so there's that too for me to chortle at.

But yes, that really is the gist of it. Words are fluid and their uses change over time, and most people do not really stop and think about the origins of their common parlance terms, and how odd some of those choices actually sound, once you do stop and think about it. This is as true to English as it is to any of the languages I am familiar with. They each have their weirdo words.

Ye_Olde_Crowe

Faulgor wrote: »

I think a funny - not literal, but kind of thematic - translation would be Schweberknecht

That's brilliant.

Aigym_Hlervu

@redlink1979, well I don't. One of my trades is interpretation ant translatation, and I, of course, I know the rules. This thread is just an attempt to break them just for fun . To see how do we all perceive the very sound and the structure of the same words being all that different. We had a certain period in my country when seemingly almost everything was translated even the names of those English ambassadors. It was about 500 - 600 years ago, we're said to still have some documents of that time showing it. Even those traditional names like Ostin, John, Jack, Matt, Bart, Martin, Jerry, William, etc. - we have our national forms to all of them and they were likewise translated along with surnames like Brown, Baker, Smith, Johnson, etc. But the real trick is that all those names used today in, say, England, have been all obsolete here for about 120 -150 years. We don't use them anymore. Moreover, we had names just like those Ancient Roman ones (though used in our language's form, translated, so they sound differently) like Septimus, Optimus, Julius, Decimus, Lucius, Quintus, Sextus, etc. They're all obsolete today too, but many of them are still used as surnames (like Claudius, Titus, Marcus, Lucius etc.). It's a very interesting thing. So, this made me wonder, what if we tried to translate these TES words the way we did it back in those times and see what happens ? And it's really interesting to read on a possible etimology of TES names and to share the perception. I just tried to make it a bit funny in the OP, so it's the way I actually see it - it's not that "weird", indeed. But still, it's all very interesting to me.

@bluebird, that was very insightful, thank you! Yes, I'm aware of those translation techniques and, of course, I follow them. Hammerfell, Glenumbra, Auridon, Alinor, Deshaan, Arteum and many other such names are not translated here too exactly to save it's nuanced and associative meaning, but nonetheless, sometimes it's very interesting to translate something that should be translated to see how could all those names sound be they invented by my native language speakers. And what I can say, those names translated that way turn the world itself to such a.. relative, but still strange in it's picture. I can't describe that feeling, but that's interesting . Regarding Buoyant Armigers - that "cheerful" meaning is as odd as that "unsinkable" . And "Rhtngabnworcestershiregznulft" - that was funny, indeed .

Thank you, guys for explaining that "fell", "Whiterun" and "Wayrest" things! That's really clear now! Though I should have understood that "Wayrest" meaning myself .

@Aznarb, many thanks for sharing that, mate! We don't translate Solitude too, but what I can say we have some toponyms IRL derived from that word. Anyway, that word, used as a toponym, is never used in it's primary form "Solitude" - it is always changed by suffixes, preffixes, whatever, that makes it sound as a toponym. But using it that straightforward - "Solitude" as a name for a place is a bit odd. I've studied several more languages where such names are also changed that way, so I just wondered if it is ok for an English speaker to read and hear a city named "Solitude" instead of, say, "Soliburg" or somesithing. Yes, too many words are translated (if ever translated) for the sake sounding only .. Thank you, Aznarb! So, how do you pronounce "Dunmer", "Altmer", etc? Is it "Dunmer" or "Dunmer"?

@Ratzkifal, yes, the Sword-singers fit in the lore pretty well. I meant only the sounding, the way that word sounds to a native English speaker. Because in my language that sounds not that good and, as I see it, in other languages the situation is the same .

@Eiagra, that's what am I saying too ! We just don't use that word "hand" other way than literally. Though, yes, we have an ancient poetic synonym that fits better, but still it's not a modern form of that word. For example, that "Star Wars" ship called the "Invisible Hand" - that name translated into my language both sounds and reflects the original meaning of an unseen hand that controls everything much better. But somehow it doesn't work that good with the "Almalexia's Hand".

@Major_Lag, the "Antediluvian Vaults" are translated perfectly in my language too ! Regarding the "Elsweyr" - to me it's just the same weird word as that "Infiniti" - something written with a mistake as if it was written by someone who did not attend to their classes at all . The "Nightblade" and the "Covert killer" made me think we might have a very relative languages IRL . At least they might be similar.

@myskyrim26, I know what language you are speaking of, my friend. A very beautiful and rich one indeed. And a very difficult one to study it . I like to translate your national poetry much. Some kind of a hobby . And yes, that's just one meaning of that "buoyant" word, but I can't find any of the suitable ways to translate that phrase "Buoyant Armiger" into your language so that it both sounds well and means the original concept well. It was even hard to translate it into German until @Faulgor shared his translation. Perhaps, it's current way of translation is the best - sounds good, fits good for a personal guard of a god, but has nothing with that buoyancy. Oh, by the way! I know how to translate "Whiterun" into your language now, since @Cundu_Ertur and @VaranisArano explained it's meaning! That might be funny indeed . A very beautiful word. PM me if you'd like to speak on that.

@Faulgor, at last ! I thought I was the only one here who doesn't like that "Wappenträger" much..