Lost in Translation. How do those English words from TES are viewed by a foreigner?

Kiralyn2000

Yeah, some of those problems come from literal translation issues (I've seen the same with anime - translating things literally, vs translating the 'spirit' of it: the hidden meanings that a native speaker would get from regional accent, slang, etc)

Some of them just seem like the OP's personal issues, or being deliberately obtuse to 'gaming jargon', not translation ones.



Like "Alliance points". This isn't a language or translation issue. It has nothing to do with NATO, or the US, or whatever. The PvP in this game is between the three Alliances. Thus, the points you earn in PvP are Alliance Points.

Or maybe as a long-time gamer (both digital & tabletop), I'm just used to the idea of using all sorts of different "points" as currencies. /shrug
I've played games where you earn experience points, then spend them to increase your skills; etc. I can't imagine that other languages where gaming happens, don't have their equivalents of that jargon. Now, if ESO didn't translate English gaming jargon into the appropriate jargon in other languages, then that would be a translation issue. But not because such concepts just don't exist.

Ditto for the many things that seem to be totally normal due to my familiarity with Fantasy, Folklore, Mythology, etc. Like this:

21. Scaled Court, Court of Bedlam, Feathered Court - what court is meant here? A court of judges, a royal court, a tennis court? Anyway, I couldn't find any of suitable meanings.

I've run into too many stories over the years with things like the Fae Courts (Court of Summer, Seelie Court, etc) to be thrown by those. And that's like ancient mythology from Europe, not some newfangled thing.

Eh, whatever.

(are there really languages out there, where people in the past didn't create place names out of whatever words they felt like shoving together?)


----

Actually, looking at it more, Metaphor seems to be a major issue. Like with "Hands" or "Blades". The main helper being the "the Right Hand of the King", or "You are my Blades! Go out and kill in my name!" The ruler gives orders and his Hands (for various tasks) and his Blades (for more stabby-killy tasks) carry out those orders. I desire something done and my hands carry out the job, whether it is literal (I open a door with my actual hand) or metaphorical (my minion goes and does what I require)

RaddlemanNumber7

I'm an Englishman. English is the language that I speak.

Buoyant Armigers:

In TES "Armiger" is simply a word picked out of a thesaurus as an alternative for "Warrior". None of the IRL context and precise meaning of the word "Armiger" applies to TES. Vvardenfell is not like feudal England in any way.

In this case "Buoyant" means "having a happy mood", being "Upbeat". "Levity", as exemplified by the course doggerel of Captain Naros of Molag Mar.

These ideas sort of vaguely describe a Warrior Poet.

LuxLunae

what say you about the name...

Fengrush?

jm42

Russian localisation is bad. Mostly it is literal translation while "poetic" or obsolete form will be much more beautiful

FabresFour

Hammerfell is not derived from Volenfell? Volen = Hammer, Fell = City?

Technically "Fell" here would not be English, but Dwemeri, Hammerfell would be translated into English by Dwemeri as "The City of the Hammer" no?

Aigym_Hlervu

jm42 wrote: »

Russian localisation is bad. Mostly it is literal translation while "poetic" or obsolete form will be much more beautiful

Yes, especially that poetic one! I like German poetry much, but I think the Russian one of the XIX century is the one much underestimated. The language itself is very beautiful, but very hard to study . 33 letters, lots of suffixes, prefixes, a single word can have absolutely different meaning, if placed in some other word order or said with some other tone (like that "smart" word that could mean both the "clever" and the "dumb"). It's the language of.. feelings, and your poetry shows it quite well. Translating Russian poetry while keeping it's meaning and making it still sound like a rhyme is a hard thing indeed. Since the fellow players told me what the "Whiterun" means, and regarding my knowledge of Russian, I suppose Whiterun should have been called.. "Belorechensk" or something. The "Belo-" - a form of the "White" with that "o" letter connecting the two parts of a complex word, and the "-rechensk" as a form of the "river", or the "creek". Belorechensk! That sounds . I guess, it's very unusual for a fantasy world. Correct me, if I'm wrong on that.

redlink1979

@Cygemai_Hlervu Thanks for your insight

robpr

Hammerfell and Daggerfall names are explained by lore. Dwemer chieftain threw his hammer, Volendrung across continent and told that his tribe will settle wherever it lands. So it landed in Hammerfell, and dwemer built a city at point of hammer's impact, called Volenfell (Volendrung fell). Before it was simply called Deathlands by humans and Hegathe by elves.

Daggerfall is a similar story. City was built by Nord invaders. By a tradition, Nord chieftain threw a knife to indicate border of his land.

Almalexia's Hands are not only her guards, but also her agents. Since by lore she cannot move from Mournhold constantly supporting Ghost Wall, she dispatches her "hands" to do various missions that need to be done.

And Walker usually means "traveller".

Varana

Even in the respective lorebooks are treating these stories with caution.
Odiva Gallwood in A History of Daggerfall writes:
"Daggerfall, by tradition, is said to refer to the knife the first chieftain threw to form the borders of his lands. But there are other legends that may have equal validity." (Emphasis mine)
And she calls the attempts at explaining the name a "not actually helpful amusement".
That's not an explanation, that's just ingame speculation and storytelling. In fact, it's quite obvious how someone would come up with a story like that after they heard the name "Daggerfall" and wondered where it came from, and wanted to get an entertaining tale out of it.

The same with Hammerfell and Volenfell. Volenfell is translated from the Dwemeris as "City of the Hammer" by the Pocket Guide, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the English word "to fall". And Hammerfell was named such by the Redguards who didn't really care that much about Dwarven legends - after all, the Dwemer had disappeared a century before the Redguards ever came there. We can probably assume that it's a case like Edinborough - one part of the name translated, the other not, making both Volenfell and Hammerfell identical in meaning.

And generally speaking, it's always a good idea to keep in mind that TES ingame sources are either intentionally biased, wrong, or unreliable, or can be declared such at any moment by other sources. If it's written in an ingame book or told by an ingame NPC, it's not automatically "true".

jm42

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

Russian localisation is bad. Mostly it is literal translation while "poetic" or obsolete form will be much more beautiful

Yes, especially that poetic one! I like German poetry much, but I think the Russian one of the XIX century is the one much underestimated. The language itself is very beautiful, but very hard to study . 33 letters, lots of suffixes, prefixes, a single word can have absolutely different meaning, if placed in some other word order or said with some other tone (like that "smart" word that could mean both the "clever" and the "dumb"). It's the language of.. feelings, and your poetry shows it quite well. Translating Russian poetry while keeping it's meaning and making it still sound like a rhyme is a hard thing indeed. Since the fellow players told me what the "Whiterun" means, and regarding my knowledge of Russian, I suppose Whiterun should have been called.. "Belorechensk" or something. The "Belo-" - a form of the "White" with that "o" letter connecting the two parts of a complex word, and the "-rechensk" as a form of the "river", or the "creek". Belorechensk! That sounds . I guess, it's very unusual for a fantasy world. Correct me, if I'm wrong on that.

Well you are quite right! Actually town names can be adjectives too so translators really have all the freedom of creativity if they actually care as the language is super rich. CDPR made just awsome job with the Witcher. And the town Belorechensk actually exists btw

Faulgor

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

Russian localisation is bad. Mostly it is literal translation while "poetic" or obsolete form will be much more beautiful

Yes, especially that poetic one! I like German poetry much, but I think the Russian one of the XIX century is the one much underestimated. The language itself is very beautiful, but very hard to study . 33 letters, lots of suffixes, prefixes, a single word can have absolutely different meaning, if placed in some other word order or said with some other tone (like that "smart" word that could mean both the "clever" and the "dumb"). It's the language of.. feelings, and your poetry shows it quite well. Translating Russian poetry while keeping it's meaning and making it still sound like a rhyme is a hard thing indeed. Since the fellow players told me what the "Whiterun" means, and regarding my knowledge of Russian, I suppose Whiterun should have been called.. "Belorechensk" or something. The "Belo-" - a form of the "White" with that "o" letter connecting the two parts of a complex word, and the "-rechensk" as a form of the "river", or the "creek". Belorechensk! That sounds . I guess, it's very unusual for a fantasy world. Correct me, if I'm wrong on that.

Poetry is generally so difficult to translate, it might not be worth the attempt in most cases. Something is inevitably lost.
Of course, something else might also be gained, but I find that to be rare.
English, IMO, is a great language for poetry, not the least because it has .. borrowed so many words form other languages, there are so many possibilities to play with, and things flow easily one into the other.
German is almost the opposite. It has bones. Which is perfect for precision, e.g. in scientific texts, but shaping it into poetry requires some taming. But when you manage that feat, you can harness its power into something beautiful.
E.g. Rilke's Der Panther is German in perfection, IMO.
Russian seems like German with more heart to me, although I've never had the proficiency to appreciate it properly. Я не знаю.

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I'm an Englishman. English is the language that I speak.

Buoyant Armigers:

In TES "Armiger" is simply a word picked out of a thesaurus as an alternative for "Warrior". None of the IRL context and precise meaning of the word "Armiger" applies to TES. Vvardenfell is not like feudal England in any way.

In this case "Buoyant" means "having a happy mood", being "Upbeat". "Levity", as exemplified by the course doggerel of Captain Naros of Molag Mar.

These ideas sort of vaguely describe a Warrior Poet.

I always thought it might also refer to the fact that Vivec's palace is "floating" in the Inner Sea. And maybe his levitating stance. These multiple interpretations are precisely why it's so difficult to translate into other languages.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

14. Ald Daedroth, Bal Ur, Bal Fell, Kogoruhn, Tel Aruhn, Balmora, Vos, Gnisis, Alten Corimont, Addadshashanammu (my favourite ), Almurbalarammi, Ashalmimilkala, Assurnabitashpi, Nchurdamz, Arkngthand, Arkngthunch-Sturdumz, Bamz-Amschend, etc. - perfect naming! Makes no corresponding sense IRL at all, but sounds really good and easy to pronounce.

Exactly! I have no idea why people find it hard to pronounce the names of Dwemer ruins, or remember their correct spelling. Just pronounce it like it's written, and spell it like it sounds. Easy peasy. And to feel better at ease with names of Daedric shrines like "Addadshashanammu", just remember your Sumerian and you're all set!

(In case you forgot your Sumerian, a quick summary to refresh your memory is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language)

jm42

Faulgor wrote: »

Poetry is generally so difficult to translate, it might not be worth the attempt in most cases. Something is inevitably lost.

I was speaking not about poetry itself but about more poetic choose of words. Like foresaid Almalexia's Hand can be translated just like "hand" (Рука) or Palm (Длань) in more authentic and outmoded fashion. I hope I managed to explain the difference correctly

Ajaxandriel

In French version of The Elder Scrolls, it's a bit special, because like Middle Earth's writings and films, there are different traductors who worked on it at different times, with different artistic choices.

This way, each "tamrielic" English name in the lore has often TWO french translations. One for the Arena-Oblivion time, one from ESO.

I'll take some examples.

- Summerset Isles: untranslatable because it's a pun with Summer and Sunset... So the old name was Archipel de l'Automne (Autumns Archipelago) and in ESO it became Archipel du Couchant (Archipelago of the West , or Sunset Archipelago)
This new translation is way better, because it removes the "dying" feel of Automne and the wrong season theme regarding in-game flora of said Isles. It also revives the geographical sense, Le Couchant is the "tamrielic" French name for Summerset, just like IRL it is our peotic name for Morocco, in opposition with Le Levant (Lebanon and Syria). It makes even more sense when we notice how Summerset have the a similar vibe like Canary islands.

- Cloudrest : Havrebrume (old, Hazehaven) / Pas-des-Nuées (modern, Swarmstep or Cloudpace)
- Anvil : Anvil (old, untranslated) / Lenclume (modern, Theanvil)
- Wayrest : Refuge (old, Shelter) / Haltevoie (modern, Wayhalt)


Some places are still untranslated in ESO.
- Rimmen (men from the rim) is meaningless in french (it could have been Frontaliers in french)
- Morrowind (wind of tomorrow?) sound very english like an american blockbuster title (it may have been Vendemain or Vantdemain with a pun between vent and lendemain).
- Ald'Ruhn : we don't understand the hidden meaning "ald/old", because it should have been vieil/vieux.

Some places are translated only in the french version of the lore but not as commercial name.
For us, Skyrim is the game name, Bordeciel is the lore area.
Oblivion is used untranslated but the latin root makes it looking like an original french word (we don't get the meaning, "Oubli", forgotting)


The harder fun fact about all this, is that sometimes we have SEVERAL concurrent translations INSIDE one game like ESO. Maybe because two persons worked on it I guess.
Still not fixed currently, I can testify (as an altmer lore stan account )
- Sunhold : Solanie (Sunlany) et Soltenure (Suntenure) !
- - Sol is a cut part from "Soleil", but it's not ideal because it's the word for ground, soil.
- - Soltenure looks less poetic to me but is well consistent with other city of Prime-Tenure (modern french version of Firsthold - that old version was Primeterre (Firstland))
- Sil-Var-Woad : big mess here, since Schick reverse-engineered and retconned the older TES:A name of "Silverwood" into this. Two french translators for ESO:Summerset tried. It gave Boss-Khar-Jhen, Boss-Kar-Jhen et Bosq d'Âr-jen (and l’aube some more as I find new iterations in treasures names...)
- - they are two phonetic mimicking of "Bosc d'argent" (old french for "Bois d'argent", Silver Wood).
- - Sh!t would happen if one day they decide to give Aldmeri translation for Sil, Var and Woad like they did for Thor Hame Khard (former Thorheim Guard).

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

2. Almalexia's Hands (also Her Hands). So where are Her Fingers, Her Nails, Her.. Eyebrows or.. (sorry-sorry) Her Arse ? Why couldn't they have been called simply "Almalexia's Guard"? There are two words for the "hand" in my language - a casual and poetic one meaning the "hand". So, I have to use that poetic one, but nonetheless, we don't use that word to name someone's personal henchmen.

Main d'Almalexia directly from english like you said. We understand the meaning (at least I was able to, because it mimicked the Hand of the Emperor title in old Star Wars expanded lore )
In proper french it could have been "Bras droit d'Almalexia" because we use the right arm metaphor for the english "hand" lackey. But I guess it's fine. Also The Eye of the Queen are Les Yeux de la Reine, literally.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

3. Redguard. Yeah, it's a misspelling of the "Ra Gada" (a good name, by the way). But why the "Redguard"? It reminds me of that Chinese military all the time I hear or read that word.

Speculation: maybe the first creators imagined them as a former mercenary army (like the tsaesci blades became in modern lore) from remote continent that would be called, Red Guard. In fact they do have red tapestries and red themed stuff.
Afterwards, I remember a dev (MK?) said they were developped as a kind of reverse-from-real-world Black Power conquerors of Tamriel, so Red Guard could be a private joke around the maoist vibe of the Black Panther party?

6. Hammerfell.

=> Martelfell in ESO (Hammerfell previously)

Vvardenfell => untranslated to this day. Nonsense word in french. I only realised it was "Warden Fell" in english when the Chapter was released with the Warden class

14. Gold - you say "X gold" meaning X amount of gold. We can't say that in my language. Well, video game players do say it, but otherwise it's a weird phrase.

French gaming and roleplaying slang uses "PO" : letters P and O for pièces d'or, gold coins.

15. Ald Daedroth,

We don't have the TH sound so it's "alde dahédrote"

21. Blades

Les Lames. (literally)
We call this "métonymie" when a person or something is named after a feature or a stuff it has.

Court of Bedlam

La Cour du Saccage (like a king's court, yes, but pledging to the havoc itself instead of a monarch)

23. Walker, Shadow Walker - the word "walker" is untranslatable to my language. The closest one resembles with the "pedestrian".

'Marcheur" (it exists!)

24. Sword-singers

Les Chante-épée (literally)

According to the rules of my language, complex words make stress on the "main" word within it. Those guys might not have that rule in theirs. But how does that work, say, in French? Is it still "Dunmer" there?

We have no such accent nor "main word" problems so it is merely "dunmer" ... flat "dunmer".
I guess that for a foreigner our accent thing is always perceived on the last syllabe for every phrase.

And the common spelling is "deux + n'mère" to badly mimic the regular english "HUH" sound for their U letter. I even don't know if proper spelling should be "dounemère" with a OU like in "you"...!

Azuramoonstar

that;s nothing.

ff14 has as dungeon called shisui of the violet tides
aka Violet tides of violet tides.

What the localize/heads lore guy said:

we name things like that so all the communities can understand it, in jp it would just be shisui. Due to complexities of langue such as nuance, speech, presentation etc we have to do round about ways of naming things, as some words just simply have no 1:1 translation.

aka English to jp and vise versa is just weird to translate 100%

same applies to all games and languages names and titles will seem normal in the companies native langue, but read funny and anything non native.

JKorr

A "fell" can also refer to a high and barren looking landscape; think mountain meadow or moors. It was sometimes used as village common land for grazing cattle in medieval times. England and Scotland have a lot of "fell" named places.

If you play Ebonheart Pact you end up with the title "King's Arrow", and pretty much end up doing the same duties as Almalexia's Hands.....

TheRealPotoroo

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

11. Champion - in my language that word is used in the sphere of sports competitions only. Achilles was the champion of Agamemnon, but we simply call him a "warrior of Agamemnon". It's too unusual for me to be a "Champion of Vivec" - what sports am I a champion in there? Champion points - the same thing. "Veteran points" sounds much better.

A champion is never a mere warrior. It's a big deal and I'd be very surprised if German didn't have an equivalent somewhere. You need to think of champion here as a verb - to champion someone or something is to take up their cause as your own. So Achilles as Agammemnon's champion wasn't just the greatest warrior in Greece, he was representing Agammemnon and his interests. Ordinary warriors don't do that.

15. High Elves - does that mean "Tall Elves" or it is "Superior Elves"? It's very unclear to me what was meant originally.

Superior.

LanteanPegasus

Buoyant Armigers

There's that Lore Book about the "founding" of these guys: "The 36 Lessons of Vivec: Sermon24
"When they saw their lord, the Velothi cheered. "We are happy to serve you and win!" they said.
Vivec smiled at those brave souls around him and summoned celebration demons to cleave unto the victors. There was a great display of love and duty around the netted monster, and Vivec was at the center with a headdress made of mating bones. He laughed and told mystical jokes and made the heads of the three houses marry and become a new order.
"You shall forever be now my Buoyant Armigers," he said."

So "Buoyant" here definitely represents the meaning of "mirthful, cheerful, spirited, lively", not the meaning of "floating, unsinkable" (or, only insofar as their good spirits are "unsinkable" by adversity).
When someone mentioned "gay" that was correct. Because up to the late 19th century that word just meant "carefree, cheerful, (for persons and occasions), bright and showy (for displays/things/looks). The mainly sexual connotation came after that.
And reading that thing about "displays of love and duty" and "crown of mating bones", well, maybe both meanings are fitting here.

And "armigers" is a medieval thing, describing persons, families, or clans that are entitled to use a heraldic representation (a "Coat of Arms" = heraldic emblem = Wappen [in German]). The correct phrasing for having and using such a heraldic emblem is "bear a code of arms" (not literally carrying it around, although knights having it on their shields was probably the basis for the wording). That explains the "Wappenträger". Only people of a certain social standing were allowed to do so, and this right was usually granted at some point by a higher authority, or passed on hereditary.
So Vivec kind of ennobled these people by making them Armigers with his (divine) authority.
You could try to translate this as "Knecht" in German. But that would hold the risk of backfiring spectacularly. Because yes, at some point when it was still a Germanic word it meant something like "fighter for their lord". But later its meaning in Germany and other countries changed to a lowly worker/servant, with very few rights and no authority, either at a farm, or in a household. And that would be a completely wrong association.
So for Armigers, I'd go with "Streiter" or "Kämpen" (both formal, a bit old-fashioned, but also poetic words for "fighter") or even "Ritter" (=knight, which is technically/historically one step above the "Armiger", but since this is a religious order they probably wield a similar social weight).

Then we have the Lore Book Buoyant Armigers: Swords of Vivec.
It explicitly talks of "Knights-Errant", so I'd go with "Ritter" (knight) for this part.

Buoyant is much more of a challenge, because while there are many adjectives that fit the bill in some way or other, you'd need to find one that is poetic, describing good spirit, while not sounding too harmless or cumbersome.

You could go with "Strahlende Ritter". That would indicate a bit of humour from Vivec's side, because in German that's the equivalent of the slightly romantically exaggerated "Knight in Shining Armour". A bit old-fashioned, implying an ideal more than a reality. So in essence, it would fit the bill, because the BAs are described as exactly that kind of idealized knightly image (valour, combat prowess, chivalric courtesy, and warrior-poetry). It is kind of a standing phrase in language and literature, though.
But young folks - and folks with that other sort of humour - would probably make jokes about Vivec's Knights being irradiated or glowing in the dark (because strahlend can also mean those things).

So a safe, working, albeit a bit lame, translation could be "Vivecs Ritter" (Knights of Vivec) oder "Vivecs Fahrende Ritter" (Vivec's Knights Errant).

I'll stop at this, because I should have been asleep for two hours already. Thank you for an interesting topic!

And to answer one of your general questions: I'm German, so English isn't my native language. But after about 20 to 25 years of using it regularly as a 2nd language, first at school, then when consuming books (both for university studies and amusement), films or TV stuff from US/Britain I do "think" (or better: associate emotionally) directly in English when hearing it. That's why I bought the English version of ESO, because so many of the German translations just don't work, and I know it when I see/hear them, because they sound "wrong" in German, but I "hear" what the English original behind them was, and that one makes sense. Especially with fantasy and legend you always have to translate by meaning/emotional association, not literally - and that is very, very hard to achieve.

That's why the translation of Margaret Carroux for The Lord of the Rings in German, for example, works like a charm, transporting the wonderful epic of Tolkien, and the new one by what's-his-name Krege is an utter disaster. Because he just doesn't have (or use) the background in historic linguistics, folk lore, and various mythological and cultural backgrounds that you need to find the right words to represent the concepts behind the original ones.

Aigym_Hlervu

Holy Moses, that was awesome, @Ajaxandriel! Very insightful. Thank you!

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

We have no such accent nor "main word" problems so it is merely "dunmer" ... flat "dunmer".
I guess that for a foreigner our accent thing is always perceived on the last syllabe for every phrase.

And the common spelling is "deux + n'mère" to badly mimic the regular english "HUH" sound for their U letter. I even don't know if proper spelling should be "dounemère" with a OU like in "you"...!

I'm an ordinary European man, but I was born in the territory of Asia and lived there for the first 16 years of my life. That was a good long time ago, indeed. A Frenchman taught me the basics of archery, we discussed the philosophy of life and sang songs of the 70s with an Italian, I had several friends from America, a Brazillian was my classmate and a friend that time (I did not spoke his Portuguese at all, but I spoke English and my native language only - he couldn't say a word using neither of them, so we always had plenty of things to discuss . A very good man, I still remember our conversations). I had plenty of things to observe and it's hard to surprise me with some lingual things including those Chinese, Japanese, Thai and some other languages. But what is totally surprising for me is that the "last syllable" rule is not a rule at all in French ! How could that ever be true ?! That's a revelation. Aren't you some kind of a "wrong" Frenchman, Ajax ? What French is that - a Belgian or.. a Canadian?

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

In French version of The Elder Scrolls, it's a bit special, because like Middle Earth's writings and films, there are different traductors who worked on it at different times, with different artistic choices.

This way, each "tamrielic" English name in the lore has often TWO french translations. One for the Arena-Oblivion time, one from ESO.

We had something similar back in the 90's when we got acquianted with the game. I remember those talks on the "Daedra" (each letter pronounced as a separate one - d-a-e-d-ra) or something like "Day-drah"). Later on we agreed to use the first way of pronunciation.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

- Summerset Isles: untranslatable because it's a pun with Summer and Sunset... So the old name was Archipel de l'Automne (Autumns Archipelago) and in ESO it became Archipel du Couchant (Archipelago of the West , or Sunset Archipelago)
This new translation is way better, because it removes the "dying" feel of Automne and the wrong season theme regarding in-game flora of said Isles. It also revives the geographical sense, Le Couchant is the "tamrielic" French name for Summerset, just like IRL it is our peotic name for Morocco, in opposition with Le Levant (Lebanon and Syria). It makes even more sense when we notice how Summerset have the a similar vibe like Canary islands.

Some places are translated only in the french version of the lore but not as commercial name.
For us, Skyrim is the game name, Bordeciel is the lore area.
Oblivion is used untranslated but the latin root makes it looking like an original french word (we don't get the meaning, "Oubli", forgotting)

Wow. Two different translations for the "Skyrim" ? "Bordeciel".. Interesting. Both Summerset and Skyrim are left untranslated in my language. But regarding the "Oblivion" - this is something I can't agree with my fellow players. Yes, generally we do not translate the "Oblivion" too, be it a TES game name or that in-game realm. And basically, just like in your language, people think it means the "forgetting" or something. What I think, is that this word should be translated, but not in the sense of "forgetting". We have a very beautiful word for the place of "nonbeing", "netherrealm", "inexistence", "abhava" (well, that's an Indian word, actually, not the one from my language), "nonentity". And that word means exactly the place opposite to the place of existence, life, being, the Mundus. I don't know what meaning of the "Oblivion" was meant originally, but I doubt it meant something derived from the "forget" word.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Main d'Almalexia directly from english like you said. We understand the meaning (at least I was able to, because it mimicked the Hand of the Emperor title in old Star Wars expanded lore )
In proper french it could have been "Bras droit d'Almalexia" because we use the right arm metaphor for the english "hand" lackey. But I guess it's fine. Also The Eye of the Queen are Les Yeux de la Reine, literally.

The Hand of the Emperor ! It is always a pleasure to meet another real Star Wars fan. We use the right arm metaphor that way too! But in order to do it you always have to say "right arm of" someone, and refer to someone specific. So, we can't say that the Hands of Almalexia are her right arms, because there are.. 10 (if I'm not mistaken) of them in TES III and even many more today. The word "eye", just like the "hand" has both literal, modern, casual meaning, and a poetic one. But then again, we can't use that word when we name those people officially - in my language it is a metaphorical word just like that "hand" example and should be used to officialy name the agents of the Altmeri state.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Martelfell in ESO (Hammerfell previously)

Vvardenfell => untranslated to this day. Nonsense word in french. I only realised it was "Warden Fell" in english when the Chapter was released with the Warden class

That word reminded me of your Charles Martel who saved Europe from the Arabs in the 732nd, if I'm not wrong on that. And of your cognac . Though it's spelled with a double "L", of course. Thank you for your post, @Ajaxandriel! That was very insightful. Awesome!

Ratzkifal

On a related note, I often feel myself cringe whenever I hear the German name of something that was clearly meant to only be pronounced in English. Ezabi, our lovely banker cat, has a name that is easy to purr, because in English "Z" is a voiced sound. However in German Z is a completely different sound, so the name sounds completely awful in comparison.
Just because it seemed like there was no need to translate it, doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better. I honestly don't even want to think about Fezez...

Syldras

Some thoughts about some of the words you listed:

Buoyant Armiger: When I played TES3 Morrowind for the first time, I was 15 years old, I think. I played it in English and I had no clue what "Buoyant Armiger" actually means. I mean, I saw what they did, but the exact meaning of their name... My dictionary gave "cheery, vivid" as one possible translation for "buoyant". Together with "armiger", I could imagine it means something like "guards who serve mostly a representative function, who show off especially splendid uniforms and weapons and somehow serve as a status symbol for their ruler". So, I don't think "Kriegswappenträger" is that wrong. Sometimes I've seen "Wappen" used not only for the coat of arms itself, but also for, for example, clothing or shields bearing it.

Almalexia's Hands: Metaphorically, they are her hands. They are the ones who carry out her orders while she stays in her temple. I mean, what body part do you use when you do things? Your feet? Your ass? I normally use my hands

Daggerfall: It's "Dolchsturz" in the German translation. I'm not sure about it, but it seems to me that the city's name is based on a founding myth? That also happens in reality.

Morrowind: I once read that "Morrowind" is probably just the translation of "Resdayn". I'm not sure for "res", but "dayn" seems to be Dunmeri for "dawn" or "morning". If I find the source again, I'll post it here.

Wayrest: There are two different translations in German. "Wegesruh" in ESO, "Wegrast" in Oblivion.

Whiterun: Run = Lauf = Flusslauf. You also have that in German. So, it's a town next to the White River.

Solitude: You never heard of this? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Solitude
It was common to name places after moods. You also have this castle in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanssouci
(from French "sans soucis" = without sorrow)

Blades, Nightblade: pars pro toto. It is not uncommon in German to call soldiers of someone "blades" = Klingen. "Die Klingen des Königs", or "Soldklingen" (literally "blades for money" = merchenaries).

More later Btw, what are your favorite poems by Robert Frost? I've been wondering all the time now.

Varana

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Some places are translated only in the french version of the lore but not as commercial name.
For us, Skyrim is the game name, Bordeciel is the lore area.

Wow. Two different translations for the "Skyrim" ? "Bordeciel".. Interesting.

The same in German. The game, for purposes of marketing and brand recognition, is called "Skyrim". In-game, the region is translated as "Himmelsrand" (literally, "sky rim").

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Vvardenfell => untranslated to this day. Nonsense word in french. I only realised it was "Warden Fell" in english when the Chapter was released with the Warden class

The problem with words like Vvardenfell is that they rely a lot on sound connotations, not strictly on meaning. The Pocket Guide translates the name as "City of the Strong Shield" in Dwemeris. So the name does play with the English word "to ward" (or the corresponding noun) but doesn't exactly derive from it, it's only an allusion because they sound similar.
Allusions like that are more or less impossible to translate exactly, with maybe a few lucky exceptions.

But then, a translation doesn't need to be word-for-word, or make the exact same puns as the original.

Syldras

So, back again

Gold: In the German translation, it's also just "Gold" (except for, Oblivion I think, where they employed a wrong plural form saying "Golds" ). Like "5 Gold", although "Goldmünzen" = "gold coins" would be more correct. But, if you use it as a currency name, it would be okay. You also say "5 Euro" or "5 Dollar" after all. Also, sometimes commons phrases are shortened. You can order "5 Flaschen Bier" by telling the waiter "5 Bier" (even in the singular form).

Daedric ruin and Ashlander names: Sumerian, Assyrian and other Mesopotamic languages. There was a Assyrian King with the name Aššur-bāni-apli (sometimes shortened to Assurbanipal...). His son was Aššur-aḫḫe-iddinas. In ancient Sumeria, there were places like the temple of Eninnu, Zabalam, or Tel Agreb and Tel Asma (Tel meaning "hill"), you have people's names like Kudur-Mabuk, Nammu, Asarualimnunna or Ningirsu. Do they remind you of something, sera?

Generally, I actually like that the names of places are translated in the TES games. It's not always done perfectly, but I think it's better if you get the meaning instead of having English names for everything. This perspective might stem from the fact, though, that here in Germany we are totally used to get everything translated to German. There are normally no movies with original sound and just German subtitles on TV. Same goes for pc games. And many people don't ever read books in their original language.

Another thing I just thought of... The city of Kvatch. It sounds like the German word Quatsch, which means "nonsense"

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

Vivec's warriors were called Buoyant Armigers becase they're gay samurai, as described by one of the devs that created them.

Why Samurai? I know Morrowind has a very strong feudal Asia feel (to me, mostly Japanese, with Chinese mixed in), but Samurai as a warrior caste (and many of them with aristocratic background) rather remind me of Great House Redoran. Vivec somehow has more of an Indian vibe. I mean, the way he looks and his concept as a hermaphrodite God is even designed after Ardhanarishvara:
https://www.deviantart.com/medusatombstone/art/Ardhanarishvara-377860408

idk

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

2. Almalexia's Hands (also Her Hands). So where are Her Fingers, Her Nails, Her.. Eyebrows or.. (sorry-sorry) Her Arse ? Why couldn't they have been called simply "Almalexia's Guard"? There are two words for the "hand" in my language - a casual and poetic one meaning the "hand". So, I have to use that poetic one, but nonetheless, we don't use that word to name someone's personal henchmen.

TBH, I stopped reading at this point. It seems to be taken to literally. When speaking of actual hands I have never seen it required to mention fingers and fingernails. It seems rather implied that hands have fingers and fingernails unless otherwise stated.

It's use, in this case, denotes a special group of people who serve Almalexia. Further, we see Eyes of the Queen used in ESO to denote a group of people that hold a special place in the eyes of Queen Ayrenn yet that does not seem to grab OP's attention.

We have seen similar in one of the most popular TV series, Game of Thrones where is was used to denote a special assistant to the queen or king who essentially spoke for the monarch in their absence. Of course in ESO it is used differently.

Ofc, I do realize OP has meant this list in jest.

Ajaxandriel

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

But what is totally surprising for me is that the "last syllable" rule is not a rule at all in French ! How could that ever be true ?! That's a revelation. Aren't you some kind of a "wrong" Frenchman, Ajax ? What French is that - a Belgian or.. a Canadian?

Hahaha but let me return you the question, wasn't this Frenchman a "wrong" one? ;D
I am both from north and south of France (regarding parents) so I can tell there are huge differences of "accent" between regions, city or countryside, and of course with Belgium, Swiss and of course Québec...
but these differences only concern spelling of letters (in the south, southwest one pronounces more the "e", and also, "an, in, on" they are spoken "ãŋ, "ɛ̃ŋ", "õŋ" instead of "ã, "ɛ̃", "õ" ...and some other unexplainable details).

But here - what I am sure is that we have no "accent tonique" like germanic or other romance languages, we never talk of this until we learn english or spanish at middle school. It feels very artificial to "play up" some syllabes ... like the rest of the world do (That's why it's so hard to speak english properly, more than just wright it for us.)
And even later we learn that accent stuff about ourselves, like, yes, we do accentuate the late syllab of a phrase, or of a significant part of a phrase (checked, here https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_tonique#Le_cas_du_français )
Also it's said that nowadays more and more people do use a tonic accent like other languages, in the slang accent from the african / french-arab quarters of big cities.

Wow. Two different translations for the "Skyrim" ? "Bordeciel"..

In game and in roleplay we say Bordeciel like a place in the fictional world, but when we say Skyrim we refer to the game software, its gameplay, all this. But everybody understand it refers to the same fictional place in the english version of the lore X)

I don't know what meaning of the "Oblivion" was meant originally, but I doubt it meant something derived from the "forget" word.

It does! from latin oblivio ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblivion )

But in order to do it you always have to say "right arm of" someone, and refer to someone specific. So, we can't say that the Hands of Almalexia are her right arms, because there are.. 10 (if I'm not mistaken) of them in TES III and even many more today.

You're right, there should be one and only one Bras droit / Right Arm of Almalexia for this to work haha

Martelfell

That word reminded me of your Charles Martel

Le martel is an old french word that became le marteau (spoken "marto") currently, that means simply "the hammer" ;p

Syldras

@Cygemai_Hlervu

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

I don't know what meaning of the "Oblivion" was meant originally, but I doubt it meant something derived from the "forget" word.

It does! from latin oblivio ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblivion )

Yes. In the German translation they even call Oblivion "Reich des Vergessens" = "realm of... forgetting", which sounds extremely weird if you translate it this way.

Ajaxandriel

crossover thread:

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Moose is said "élan" in european french and "orignal" in canadian french.
Elk is "wapiti" for the american kind of deer, but "cerf" for the european species.

But the silliest thing is that the french translation of ESO used the word "élan" for the wapiti mount, which is pure nonsense.

Syldras

The same happened in the German translation. They just called the wapiti/elk "Elch", probably because it sounds like "elk", although "Elch" means "moose".

Aigym_Hlervu

Hey, @Syldras! Yeah, I know of those German names for TES places, titles, but I'm not that satisfied with that "Wegesruh" in ESO - "Wegrast" in Oblivion" thing. There was time some of us called Daggerfall Dolchfall, but, to say it frankly, I've always played TES English version only. Maybe that's the answer.. My favourite of the Robert Frost's is "The Road Not Taken". It's genius. A single rhyme describing life that way in just several verses - I think it's something outstanding. "Goldmünzen" = "gold coins" would be more correct - that's what am I talking about! It's more correct, and I think it should be more correct since we're not in the bar to say just "5 Bier" implying for 5 glasses of beer. What if I personally want to know the measure of that gold? But the game just tells me "10 Gold". What "10 gold" does the game imply to - tons, grams, coins?.. That's the question I ask myself seeing that. Well, it's my personal approach only, of course. Those Sumerian origins of the Daedric names are quite familiar to me, indeed . I'm a bit older than TES , so I had plenty of time to study it's lore, to form my own opinion, to develop some of those fan theories, etc. There's one published in the Lore section, so, you're welcome to read it . The other one was posted here several years ago, the other were left incomplete, so I haven't mentioned them anywhere yet. The lore itself is fascinating indeed. The universe of TES is my favourite one among other fiction worlds, especially when a certain cartoon developer ruined everything in a galaxy, far, far away..

I absolutely agree with you that the names of places should be translated the way it is done on TV, though it's not always done perfectly. Some say "The language changes itself" - I think it doesn't. Nothing changes itself - it is always changed by somebody. It's like that thing with the names - when I speak to an American, I'm, say, George, to a German speaker I'm either Jürgen or Georg, to an Italian I'm Giorgio, to a Russian I'm either Yuri, Yegor or Georgy, to a Portuguese I'm Jorge, etc. Same thing is with other names: I won't say I'm Mikhail to a Frenchman or that I'm Ricardo to a German - I'm Michel and Richard to them respectively. They all know me by different forms of my name, though sometimes I have to use the one I'm called in my country because some names are absent in the language of the one whom I speak to - this is the only case I use the "original" form. So, if we can use our native languages, why use a foreign one? My personal opinion is that borrowing words does not enrich any language.

Yes, it might ruin the original entourage (ah, this lovely French word ), but it's the way to understand each other much better. I haven't read the "Game of Thrones" and have never watched the series; Perhaps, because it's world, it's heroes are far from my views. How do you perceive those super-heroes? The concept of super-heroes those modern movies show us is so distant from me, because they have nothing similar neither to me nor to my fellow countrymen - we have way different heroes, real life ones, worthy of our respect and good memory, not those constantly jumping clowns in red tricot saving a city from some incomprehensive dumbs and their imbecile goals. Though yes, those young of us watch those movies, but trust me, should you translate those super-heroes' names, skills and their whole stories properly and nobody would ever perceive them seriously - not because my language is that poor or sounds bad, but because the original content is a rubbish sometimes revealed only when translated. This might be the reason such things like "Batman", "Superman" ("Übermensch".. Though, it's a literal translation) etc. are never translated. Now look at the heroes of TES - they are never self-made men, but become those Heroes by prohecy or devine intervention. They can fail, they can be killed by a commoner and they would have never succeeded without the help of commoners. They become heroes due to circumstances, sometimes against their own will. This is something close to my perception of a hero. A good content is always good whatever language you use, and I think the Elder Scrolls is exactly an example of such a content. Just like that invincible hero, a perfectly developed character whatever name you give him - Siegfried, Achilles, Nikita the Tanner, Nerevar, etc. Though, some individual things still allowed me to create this thread . Anyway, this is only my opinion.

@Ajaxandriel, since we have started talking on personal names - are there any French versions of, say, Tiber Septim, Barenziah, Vivec, etc.? I also like the universe of TES because they created almost the whole new world with those Dunmeri, Khajiiti, Altmeri and other names including. @Ratzkifal mentioned Ezabi, so what about French edition? "Vivec" sounds quite French-like for a real "wrong" Frenchman like me .

Avariprivateer

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Hey, @Syldras! Yeah, I know of those German names for TES places, titles, but I'm not that satisfied with that "Wegesruh" in ESO - "Wegrast" in Oblivion" thing. There was time some of us called Daggerfall Dolchfall, but, to say it frankly, I've always played TES English version only. Maybe that's the answer.. My favourite of the Robert Frost's is "The Road Not Taken". It's genius. A single rhyme describing life that way in just several verses - I think it's something outstanding. "Goldmünzen" = "gold coins" would be more correct - that's what am I talking about! It's more correct, and I think it should be more correct since we're not in the bar to say just "5 Bier" implying for 5 glasses of beer. What if I personally want to know the measure of that gold? But the game just tells me "10 Gold". What "10 gold" does the game imply to - tons, grams, coins?.. That's the question I ask myself seeing that. Well, it's my personal approach only, of course. Those Sumerian origins of the Daedric names are quite familiar to me, indeed . I'm a bit older than TES , so I had plenty of time to study it's lore, to form my own opinion, to develop some of those fan theories, etc. There's one published in the Lore section, so, you're welcome to read it . The other one was posted here several years ago, the other were left incomplete, so I haven't mentioned them anywhere yet. The lore itself is fascinating indeed. The universe of TES is my favourite one among other fiction worlds, especially when a certain cartoon developer ruined everything in a galaxy, far, far away..

Gold is simply a generic game term used in almost anything with early modern tech or earlier. pirates of the Caribbean Online, back in the day had gold, although they could have used Pieces of Eight. lord of the Rings Online utilized a copper, silver and gold system with one hundred copper equaling one silver and so on. the Settlers 6 Rise of an Empire employed gold generically. Star Wars games normally use Republic or Imperial Credits. Star Trek Online uses dilithium. Europa Univeralis uses ducats as a unified currency for practical reasons.