Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

Recremen

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

Pardon my Jel, but hold the *** up. What exactly was the "behavioral change" y'all saw that warrants continuing to screw over established guilds, who have fought together and recruited for years under the pretense of 24-person fighting forces? Was it just a behavioral change and not some actual algorithmic benefit due to parallelizing group-targeted effects, or some other nonsense? Because if it's purely a behavioral change, that is really bad. All the good guilds ended up still running together, just with more groups, the only change being that a bunch of folks took a hiatus from the game while the testing was ongoing because it was just too frustrating. That's the only behavioral change that I caught going on. Something tells me that "quit in droves" is not the behavioral change you are actually referring to, yet it's the only one I know of.

Luke_Flamesword

But that is your issue of "not wanting to follow weak leaders". You literally get nothing more from being a solo healer or support than you do from grouping.

I played with groups and solo so I know benefits of leading myself. I want freedom - if I want to go with scroll, I go with scroll. I want defend some keep I go and defend. I can check map and zone chat to react quickly and do whatever I want at moment. With groups, I can stuck in 30-minutes pointless fights just to achieve absurd goal, I must wait for new orders or people gather together. When I'm solo I can react quickly going to places where I can be useful. Also often I want to do daily quest for gladiator proofs, so if I want do 3 keeps as quickly as possible, I don't want to stuck in group defending some distant, meaningless keep for next 40 minutes. Don't forget about 40 kills quest which is bugged since forever and practically you need to be solo to make it in normal time.

Forcing people to be in groups is serious issue. In PC EU, a lot of DC players like solo playing and I bet that with this chances my faction will loose a lot of good people

agegarton

So, what ARE you going to do about Cyrodiil ??

Grimhallow

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

MY ENTIRE DISCORD IS REJOICING

Seriously. This is a day for much celebration.

Thank you.

Thanos7895

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

I think what you may have missed in looking only at the data is that the behavior you witnessed was when many of the PVP guilds just logged out for the duration of the test.

I think you may regret the irreparable damage you have done to the cyro community with all these tests. Your response to with these changes seems consistent with a complete lack of awareness of what we consider to be fun gameplay and only serves to push more people out of a cyro.

Oh and great job with healers out here that don't want to join a group... just saying...

Joy_Division

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno You do realize that this 12 man group really empowers the already powerful groups that ball up and stack HOTs and Purge; right? I get wanting to reduce the zerg of faction stacks and like that to an extent, but it does impact PUGs and casual players a lot more than the organized groups who may contribute at least as much; if for nothing else other than attracting large responses

This wasn’t about nerfing coordinated groups, it was about improving performance. The group limit and ally target abilities did help performance. It also helped coordinated groups as well as small scale and solo players. The only people who have a bad time is solo healers. And the solution to that is join a group. Imo solo healing has no place in cyrodiil anyway, it’s more rewarding to simply group up as a healer.

This is the best thing they could have done as of now imo ❤️

No it didn't.

Anyone who isn't in a group gets screwed.

2 grouped people take a resource. 2 randoms go from the castle to take it back. That should be an even fight. Now it's not because the randoms can't heal, buff, or do anything to assist each other while the two grouped can. That's incredibly unfair, inconsistent, dumb, and there is no reason why people should be playing by different rules - especially since ZOs admitted that there was no significant impact on the performance.

Which was 1000% obvious to anyone who played during those tests.

Not to mention a lot of abilities are going to get nerfed if people are solo. Many templar skills a balanced to provide a benefit to allies, and now they won't do that even though the people they are playing with are allies.

And the worse part is that people wont know if their opponents are grouped, which is going to completely warp perceptions of class balance. two players that can heal and buff each other are going to be and seem a more potent then their actual classes are and ungrouped solos wont realize they are playing at a disadvantage, which is a terrible mechanic. They will walk away trying to figure out why they lost and it's going to be natural to feel their opponents classes/abilities are too strong.

Bottom line, whenever a solo is matched up against someone in a group, they are playing at a disadvantage for no good reason. This applies 100% of the time. And who is the main beneficiary of this change? The very organized groups "ball groups" that people claim are already too strong. They are completely unaffected by these changes whereas the people who already are getting farmed by them are now weaker. This isn't speculation or guesswork, but 100% is the consequence of these changes.

Grasshopper2

During 2 months of testing, I was patient and willing to go with the flow in the service of potentially improving the lag in Cyrodiil. But now, you are saying you didn't see any significant improvement in performance, but you are going to implement 12-player group size and ally-only targeted abilities, because "we liked the behavioral changes they brought."

This is beyond baffling. You are making major changes without any justification at all. What about all the healers who like to play solo or who can't get into a group? What about non-healers who won't get any benefit without being in a group? What percent of total players in Cyro do you think only run in organized groups? I do, and I also run a lot solo. One thing I noticed during the tests was a marked increase in gankers. What you are proposing rewards that playstyle more than any other. Is that what you think Cyrodiil play should be: a bunch of players trying to gank each other? That is exactly what you are encouraging.

You are molding Cyrodiil play into something none of us want (except for the gankers). If you find something that really improves lag, let's hear it. If you want to implement "behavior modification" as if we were children, then just keep going. I don't think you will like the result, and I know myself and MANY others won't either.

Recapitated

I'm not opposed to tests in principle, even if all they do is rule out hypotheses rather than identify the source of the problem. I actually thought it was a good sign in some ways that ZOS is willing to lose money to figure out what's wrong.

But, in order for you to use your customers as guinea pigs for two months, you have to be transparent with them and you have to make them feel like they're involved in the process of acting on the information you've gathered.

This report is not that. Which tests had what effect? What data can you show us on confounders e.g. tests reducing overall population?

You liked the behavioural changes? Which behavioural changes are you talking about? Have you asked players whether they like them?

If you're not willing to tell us this, then you're not going to build any good will from us as customers in general and future test subjects in particular.

Greasytengu

So is there a problem in the code for groups that is causing lag? Because that is the only reason the group limit makes sense. Though actually fixing the problem makes even more sense...

linlilia

Well I guess I wont be pvping at all for a long time. I usually only heal in PVP and in groups of 12 or less there just wont be enough groups to take healers. You royally screwed healers so thanks.

If it makes it better so you say, but when the tests were on I DC'd more than I had in over a year and could do nothing because people did not pickup groups when sixes where limited to 12 people.

ZOS do you just hate the idea of healers? Because everything you have been doing the last year seems to be doing everything you can to make them worthless. Once scrying goes DLC, there will be trial groups without healers with the Ring of the Pale Order you know......................

Vevvev

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Forcing people to be in groups is serious issue. In PC EU, a lot of DC players like solo playing and I bet that with this chances my faction will loose a lot of good people

On PC NA I've noticed this to. My fellow DC (myself included) love running solo because it gives us the ability to react how we want to events. We communicate via zone chat and are very free willed in how we coordinate ourselves, which is both a blessing and curse.... Depends on the situation.

Crash427 wrote: »

Am I just being cynical or did anyone else notice that the one change they did decide on will make the new mythic ring a must have for a lot of players?

I suppose it does, but the question still remains is it worth removing a complete set for? So far I've yet to really come to a conclusion on it since if I had a healer or group members around me I certainly would not be using the ring. However, in a solo situation the ring is a blessing.... at the cost of doing extra damage (Or whatever set you gimped for it.) I have however noticed the ring is incredibly powerful in the hands of a shield stacking Sorcerer. I don't play a Sorc but those I have fought with the ring are incredibly hard to kill in a 1v1.

Kingslayer513

Nice! I think this is a really healthy change for Cyrodiil gameplay. I'm glad that this was decided upon out of all the test options. Definitely renews hope that ZOS is listening to feedback after all.

Now just start working on reducing the impact from ball groups

KageNin

Few months wasted to implement what Fengrush said years ago, laughable.

NotTaylorSwift

techyeshic wrote: »

2 grouped people take a resource. 2 randoms go from the castle to take it back. That should be an even fight. Now it's not because the randoms can't heal, buff, or do anything to assist each other while the two grouped can. That's incredibly unfair, inconsistent, dumb, and there is no reason why people should be playing by different rules - especially since ZOs admitted that there was no significant impact on the performance.

Which was 1000% obvious to anyone who played during those tests.

Not to mention a lot of abilities are going to get nerfed if people are solo. Many templar skills a balanced to provide a benefit to allies, and now they won't do that even though the people they are playing with are allies.

And the worse part is that people wont know if their opponents are grouped, which is going to completely warp perceptions of class balance. two players that can heal and buff each other are going to be and seem a more potent then their actual classes are and ungrouped solos wont realize they are playing at a disadvantage, which is a terrible mechanic. They will walk away trying to figure out why they lost and it's going to be natural to feel their opponents classes/abilities are too strong.

Bottom line, whenever a solo is matched up against someone in a group, they are playing at a disadvantage for no good reason. This applies 100% of the time. And who is the main beneficiary of this change? The very organized groups "ball groups" that people claim are already too strong. They are completely unaffected by these changes whereas the people who already are getting farmed by them are now weaker. This isn't speculation or guesswork, but 100% is the consequence of these changes.

No. Fighting a grouped player as an ungrouped player isn't always going to be a disadvantage. If you are an actual solo player with an actual solo build and not just a zerg surfer then you should be fine Solo players don't need buffs and heals from other 'solo' players because they have their own, that is part of playing solo.

And about ballgroups. They are powerful because they are highly optimised and use voice comms. You cant nerf groups for using the games mechanics to the best they can and using communication. There is nothing stopping anyone else from using voice comms. Most ballgroups dont play for the map they just want to fight other large groups of players, so ignoring them isn't hurting your alliance. If you dont want to fight them then just ignore them. And they will 9/10 die eventually or get bored and go somewhere else.

LostToTheSea

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

No. Fighting a grouped player as an ungrouped player isn't always going to be a disadvantage. If you are an actual solo player with an actual solo build and not just a zerg surfer then you should be fine Solo players don't need buffs and heals from other 'solo' players because they have their own, that is part of playing solo.
[/quote]

This is exactly the type of smug response that I expected upon hearing these changes. Before I say anything, I'll say that I 1vX in Cyrodiil often and do it very well. When I fight other players, then I expect them to act as if they are faction members. If I'm fighting 3 damage dealers and an ungrouped healer shows up, then what are they going to do? Send those players a group invite mid-fight in order to heal their faction? No, they will watch their faction members die and be ignored *as a healer*. How does that make any sense?

A keep UA call is made? Why should any solo healers show up to defend? They won't. They will quit the game or be forced into grouping with likely less than desirable pug crowns and playstyles they themselves actively avoid. If you aren't dealing damage, then you are already dead to me as a faction member with this change.

This healing change fundamentally kills what dynamic ***Open World Faction-based PVP*** is all about. This is Cyrodiil. Not Grouprodiil.

If these changes go through, then I am 100% done with this game after playing since 2015. No discussion with the players in how this might impact the dynamic of open world faction warfare. Forced grouping for players of all skill levels in order to fight with their factionmates (and only selectively) to their full capability is a decision that shows how out of touch these developers are with this community. No fix to broken mechanics such as HoT stacking or reworking purge/aoe procs/etc. No reverting or tweaking old code from updates that drastically deteriorated this game. No, lets just make it to where it's 'Either I'm solo, you're in my group, or you're nobody to me.'

GG ZOS

Recapitated

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

No. Fighting a grouped player as an ungrouped player isn't always going to be a disadvantage. If you are an actual solo player with an actual solo build and not just a zerg surfer then you should be fine Solo players don't need buffs and heals from other 'solo' players because they have their own, that is part of playing solo.

Are you trying to say the ungrouped players can still win (true but not the point) or are you saying they literally have no handicap?

The two grouped players could be on the exact same classes and solo builds as the ungrouped players, they'll still be putting cauterize/vines/spores/BOL/RR/healing ward/etc. on each other whereas the ungrouped players can't.

bellanca6561n

I know it gets folks riled up when I say this but this love affair with the number 12 has kept PvE from ever being massively multiplayer. Yes, I know, what MMO has come to mean for many people has little to do with what the letters in the acronym stand for.

Plus "massively" is hardly descriptive or fixed.

So now the love of 12 comes to the only true massively multiplayer, by any measure, portion of ESO. The Dirty Dozen was a catchy name for a movie though.

It's difficult to explain to people who aren't fond of organization and social interaction when they game how rewarding large group coordinated ops are. And, frankly, 24 was always a mite small. The ideal size determined long before the Internet was even imagined was 36, and this by the best German military minds two turns of the century ago.

What magic remains in online gaming exist due to consensual stress and shared jeopardy among large groups. Our carefully prepared postures and personas (personae?) must give way. We reveal ourselves at our core. As all deep human bonds are products of our reaction to stress, the online game could serve to accelerate the development of meaningful bonds among former total strangers.

Of course, there is a distinct downside to that too. And fear of that downside is what has driven MMO design for two decades now. It's also what drives people to want to avoid substantial groups.

Yet, for nearly seven years this very commercial product we play offered that magic. It was a good run

NotTaylorSwift

LostToTheSea wrote: »

This is exactly the type of smug response that I expected upon hearing these changes. Before I say anything, I'll say that I 1vX in Cyrodiil often and do it very well. When I fight other players, then I expect them to act as if they are faction members. If I'm fighting 3 damage dealers and an ungrouped healer shows up, then what are they going to do? Send those players a group invite mid-fight in order to heal their faction? No, they will watch their faction members die and be ignored *as a healer*. How does that make any sense?

A keep UA call is made? Why should any solo healers show up to defend? They won't. They will quit the game or be forced into grouping with likely less than desirable pug crowns and playstyles they themselves actively avoid. If you aren't dealing damage, then you are already dead to me as a faction member with this change.

This healing change fundamentally kills what dynamic ***Open World Faction-based PVP*** is all about. This is Cyrodiil. Not Grouprodiil.

If these changes go through, then I am 100% done with this game after playing since 2015. No discussion with the players in how this might impact the dynamic of open world faction warfare. Forced grouping for players of all skill levels in order to fight with their factionmates (and only selectively) to their full capability is a decision that shows how out of touch these developers are with this community. No fix to broken mechanics such as HoT stacking or reworking purge/aoe procs/etc. No reverting or tweaking old code from updates that drastically deteriorated this game. No, lets just make it to where it's 'Either I'm solo, you're in my group, or you're nobody to me.'

GG ZOS

But why do people want to play SOLO healers so badly? The whole point of healing is to heal other people, what is so bad about grouping? Just join a group and if you don't like pugs then find a guild to play with and make some friends along the way. There are plenty of pvp guilds on all campaigns... And I'm not talking from a perspective that is miles away. I play healer in Cyrodiil. In a group. Which is more rewarding than playing as a solo healer could ever be. But I do also play solo/duo/smallscale sometimes not as a healer. Just because this change forces healers to group doesn't destroy 'open world faction-based pvp'.

People will cry over the change for a while and then go back into cyrodiil as a healer, join a group and then do exactly the same as they were doing previously when they were ungrouped. And if you join a group you don't like there will likely be others to join.

Though I can agree with some of your last paragraph.

renne

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

But why do people want to play SOLO healers so badly? The whole point of healing is to heal other people, what is so bad about grouping?

Because there's literally no flexibility when you're stuck in a group that you've picked up from chat because that's the only way you can do your role. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. It's exactly the same as if all solo players of EVERY role were forced into a group. People play solo because they like to go where the action is, not get stuck in a group doing whatever the crown feels like doing, whether this playing PvE vs Keeps where there are no player defenders or chasing some tank build who's tower humping as they farm AP off the group.

Just because someone is healing doesn't mean they're literally just there to dumbly follow a group around wherever just to heal them without caring what the group is doing, healers want to have fun in PvP too. And just like for DDs, having flexibility and not being stuck tied to a group is part of that fun. Because healers ARE tied to the group now. They don't have any choice.

maxjapank

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

This is exactly the type of smug response that I expected upon hearing these changes. Before I say anything, I'll say that I 1vX in Cyrodiil often and do it very well. When I fight other players, then I expect them to act as if they are faction members. If I'm fighting 3 damage dealers and an ungrouped healer shows up, then what are they going to do? Send those players a group invite mid-fight in order to heal their faction? No, they will watch their faction members die and be ignored *as a healer*. How does that make any sense?

A keep UA call is made? Why should any solo healers show up to defend? They won't. They will quit the game or be forced into grouping with likely less than desirable pug crowns and playstyles they themselves actively avoid. If you aren't dealing damage, then you are already dead to me as a faction member with this change.

This healing change fundamentally kills what dynamic ***Open World Faction-based PVP*** is all about. This is Cyrodiil. Not Grouprodiil.

If these changes go through, then I am 100% done with this game after playing since 2015. No discussion with the players in how this might impact the dynamic of open world faction warfare. Forced grouping for players of all skill levels in order to fight with their factionmates (and only selectively) to their full capability is a decision that shows how out of touch these developers are with this community. No fix to broken mechanics such as HoT stacking or reworking purge/aoe procs/etc. No reverting or tweaking old code from updates that drastically deteriorated this game. No, lets just make it to where it's 'Either I'm solo, you're in my group, or you're nobody to me.'

GG ZOS

But why do people want to play SOLO healers so badly? The whole point of healing is to heal other people, what is so bad about grouping? Just join a group and if you don't like pugs then find a guild to play with and make some friends along the way. There are plenty of pvp guilds on all campaigns... And I'm not talking from a perspective that is miles away. I play healer in Cyrodiil. In a group. Which is more rewarding than playing as a solo healer could ever be. But I do also play solo/duo/smallscale sometimes not as a healer. Just because this change forces healers to group doesn't destroy 'open world faction-based pvp'.

People will cry over the change for a while and then go back into cyrodiil as a healer, join a group and then do exactly the same as they were doing previously when they were ungrouped. And if you join a group you don't like there will likely be others to join.

Though I can agree with some of your last paragraph.

People enjoy different playstyles. And there is something rewarding about healing another player you see, even though you might not be grouped. Just because you are okay with changes doesn't invalidate how others feel. And it waits to be seen how people will react. Are we going to see a decrease in players, an increase, or a constant level. Personally, I don't think we will see much game improvement in latency and lag to make this change warranted.

maxjapank

November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

How about you open two campaigns? One campaign with nothing changed and another with your proposed changes? Let the pvp population decide which it prefers.

Luke_Flamesword

How about you open two campaigns? One campaign with nothing changed and another with your proposed changes? Let the pvp population decide which it prefers.

And this is a really great idea! I vote for this!

relentless_turnip

KageNin wrote: »

Few months wasted to implement what Fengrush said years ago, laughable.

I wonder how long it will be until they stop heal stacking... Another idea Fengrush has pushed for for a long time and an idea that would actually hurt ball groups. I do imagine it would further upset the PvP healers...

MasterSpatula

This is an irredeemably bad decision. While this might not be the final nail into the coffin of the PVP community, it's a rather large nail in its coffin. You've just made entry into PVP for new players much more hostile. You've shredded playstyles many enjoy. And you've further empowered the most overpowered and toxic playstyle in Cyrodiil. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

badmojo

.

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

But why do people want to play SOLO healers so badly? The whole point of healing is to heal other people, what is so bad about grouping? Just join a group and if you don't like pugs then find a guild to play with and make some friends along the way. There are plenty of pvp guilds on all campaigns... And I'm not talking from a perspective that is miles away. I play healer in Cyrodiil. In a group. Which is more rewarding than playing as a solo healer could ever be. But I do also play solo/duo/smallscale sometimes not as a healer. Just because this change forces healers to group doesn't destroy 'open world faction-based pvp'.

It is less a problem about grouping and more a problem of our heals only working on 11 specific players.

How is it more social to fragment the population into small groups who cant meaningfully interact with the groups around them?

Frankly its silly that solo healers get looked down on in these dicussions. It point towards an ignorance of the bigger picture. Solo healers in cyrodiil can be some of the most dedicated team players. 1 healer in the right place doing the right things can literally mean the difference between losing a keep or not. People can assume their motivations and whatnot, but their motivation means little if the healer is playing a vital role in the alliance.

If i wanted free easy AP I would throw out sone LFGs in chat and mindlessly follow the crown. I certainly wouldnt put myself in the position of being focused by groups of players trying to wipe my allies or siege our keeps.

And please do not assume soli healers are against grouping. I constantly get random invites simply as a result of my actions on the battlefield. I will join them sometimes and see how their tactics and stratgy go, but I am still able to heal allies not in that group and can leave the group any time without making my role useless.

The way people are talking about joining groups like its going to suddenly create a utopia of perfect gameplay is showing a great ignorance to how much work and strategy goes into running a proper group. Organized groups arent suddenly organized and strategic because of some markers above their heads. I would love to have a group of 12 good players to run with during the early morning hours that I usually play, but just like the game of russian roulette that is the dungeon group finder, I have zero expectations that forced grouping in cyrodiil is going to result in finding a guild of seasoned veteran pvpers who happen to play at the same tines I do, AND always have a spot open for me. More than likely I would be joining pugs and lecturing them on how not to get farmed at a resource tower. Its going to be similar to finding a good PUG to do the most difficult vet trials, I am sure it could happen, but its going to be the 1 in 100, not the norm.

mullins07

It would be nice to learn more about the behavioural changes that were observed.

As a healer, it will be difficult to enjoy Cyrodiil unless I am in a group.
It is not always possible to find a group, so you have now limited the level of enjoyment I can have.

Consequently, it will most likely limit the value I get for my ESO+ subscription, which I mainly pay to support the ongoing running and development of ESO.

Presumably, it is believed that the observed behavioural changes will increase enjoyment for other types of players, which is why I would be interested in learning more about them.

Joy_Division

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

This is exactly the type of smug response that I expected upon hearing these changes. Before I say anything, I'll say that I 1vX in Cyrodiil often and do it very well. When I fight other players, then I expect them to act as if they are faction members. If I'm fighting 3 damage dealers and an ungrouped healer shows up, then what are they going to do? Send those players a group invite mid-fight in order to heal their faction? No, they will watch their faction members die and be ignored *as a healer*. How does that make any sense?

A keep UA call is made? Why should any solo healers show up to defend? They won't. They will quit the game or be forced into grouping with likely less than desirable pug crowns and playstyles they themselves actively avoid. If you aren't dealing damage, then you are already dead to me as a faction member with this change.

This healing change fundamentally kills what dynamic ***Open World Faction-based PVP*** is all about. This is Cyrodiil. Not Grouprodiil.

If these changes go through, then I am 100% done with this game after playing since 2015. No discussion with the players in how this might impact the dynamic of open world faction warfare. Forced grouping for players of all skill levels in order to fight with their factionmates (and only selectively) to their full capability is a decision that shows how out of touch these developers are with this community. No fix to broken mechanics such as HoT stacking or reworking purge/aoe procs/etc. No reverting or tweaking old code from updates that drastically deteriorated this game. No, lets just make it to where it's 'Either I'm solo, you're in my group, or you're nobody to me.'

GG ZOS

But why do people want to play SOLO healers so badly? The whole point of healing is to heal other people, what is so bad about grouping? Just join a group and if you don't like pugs then find a guild to play with and make some friends along the way. There are plenty of pvp guilds on all campaigns... And I'm not talking from a perspective that is miles away. I play healer in Cyrodiil. In a group. Which is more rewarding than playing as a solo healer could ever be. But I do also play solo/duo/smallscale sometimes not as a healer. Just because this change forces healers to group doesn't destroy 'open world faction-based pvp'.

People will cry over the change for a while and then go back into cyrodiil as a healer, join a group and then do exactly the same as they were doing previously when they were ungrouped. And if you join a group you don't like there will likely be others to join.

Though I can agree with some of your last paragraph.

Why would a healer want to not group? Maybe they don;t have voice coms. Maybe they are shy. Maybe they don't personally like the people who typically pugheard. Maybe they don;t feel like following orders, Maybe they're only logging on for an hour and just want to do their own thing. Maybe they don;t want to be in a useless 12 man that won't be able to do a thing except PvDoor. Maybe they enjoy the freedom to do what they feel is the correct strategy rather than listen to some know it all. Maybe they don;t like being told what to put on their bars. Maybe they're hybrid healers/DPS. Maybe they like to play the game differently than you think it should be played.

There's nothing bad about grouping per se - with friends or people who know what they are doing. Forcing people to group with randoms = log off for me and I'm sure many others. Huge difference. Yeah, just go find a guild. OK cool, I'm in one we run on Tues and Thurs night. I want to play on Sat morning, but because the performance is ass, I'm the only one in cyrodiil.
Great, now I have to LFG. Sucks. I'm in a guild and my friends list is full but a lot of times I just want to do my own thing. It's really not a hard concept to understand.

I don;t know why people like you think we'll come crawling back to Cyrodiil regardless of what dumb ZOS's changes makes. When I log on and view my friends list, once I go halfway down it's "last logged on 7 months ago." No we wont. Many of us wont stand for being in an abusive relationship. If we "cry" over these changes, that means we don;t like them and we have better things to do with our leisure time than being forced to play in a way we don;t want to when performance still sucks.
If I join a group then I can not do exactly the same as before because I have to listen to the group leader. If I wanted to do that, I'd already be in a group!

Reverb

So very, very many of us play ungrouped. Especially on DC on NA. The change to ally targeted abilities had a devastating impact on gameplay enjoyment, and to make it a permanent change will penalize many people.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I’d ask that both changes not be made. Please start with the permanent reduction of the group size, and see if that satisfies your need for behavioral changes.

Idinuse

x48rph wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

Awesome so your basically screwing over healers, pugs, and casuals for what you already admitted was no gain. Great. Guess it might help with performance when you make a bunch of people stop going there. Nothing like watching an alliance mate die next to you and being able to do absolutely nothing about it....

They don't care as long as it looks good on a Twitch Stream.

relentless_turnip

Tbh I thought it had been working pretty well since Markarth dropped for me at least... Still gets a bit terrible when ball groups play.

I was hoping they would do a skill audit and reduce aoe and radius checks that way.
Reducing group size etc... Doesn't effect my playstyle, but it's a shame it restricts others freedom.

Stopping heals from stacking would be good move in reducing the effectiveness of ballgroups and lessening calculations.

Proc sets being put on a shared cooldown would also be good, both for balance and server strain.