Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

I played a lot every week of tests, but this week I just give up - game is ridiculous and now everything what people are doing in Cyordill is just proc their sets. It's massive gear battle online

I agree, but what is making it worse nealry 50% of the pop is a nb, i get that figure from kill counter add on, it seems they want everyone to be bow stanima proc sets

mrfrontman

Hey... What'ya know? I miss lag and bad stability now

katorga

Stikato wrote: »

Player since early Betas. Get your act together. These AOE tests are making me not want to play. Just a solo Sorcerer who likes to occasionally cast his abilities within 3 seconds of each other. FFS.

Yeah, sorc mag or stam is unplayable.

techyeshic

Can we just turn this off now please?

Firstmep

Went into PC EU Ravenwatch tonight.

Not only the regen reduction starts at the first aoe cast, not the second, the lag is every bit as bad as usual.

Maybe its time to realise you guys cant just spreadsheet this one out.

Crash427

Honestly at this point it's feeling more and more like it's time to move on. Even if by some miracle they manage to fix performance to pre U25 levels we'd still be playing on a map that hasn't seen any significant update since release. Add in the seemingly directionless swings in skill/gear changes and the lack of meaningful communication between the players and Zos and I'm having trouble finding a reason to stay.

Plenty of good games coming out over the next few months, why should I continue to put up with all of this?

keto3000

Glad this last week of testing will end on Monday. I'm personally glad to see that these longstanding issues are being actively worked on and, hopefully, addressed in a positive way.

Many of us have still been out in Grayhost & Blackreach pushing forward, but this last week of tests has been the toughest, IMO. All 3 factions have had to equally contend with same tests, but it definitely shows the strengths & weaknesses in solo ganking, zerg and ball group styles of fighting.

Looking forward to being able to group for BGs again.

Valdek

I vote for @FENGRUSH's ideas for reducing lag in pvp and improving the gameplay experience. His reasoning seems very sound.

Anony_Mouse

is it over yet? Are we truely done this time? Please do not extend the testing further

SgtNuttzmeg

@ZOS_GinaBruno Any idea when we will learn the findings from the most recent set of Testing Environments? We are pretty keen to learn what you guys found out.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

techyeshic

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

@ZOS_GinaBruno You do realize that this 12 man group really empowers the already powerful groups that ball up and stack HOTs and Purge; right? I get wanting to reduce the zerg of faction stacks and like that to an extent, but it does impact PUGs and casual players a lot more than the organized groups who may contribute at least as much; if for nothing else other than attracting large responses

Crash427

So 2 months of that nonsense for basically nothing. Nice work Zos. Can't wait to see what tests you come up with next time, or if there will be anyone left in Cyro to run them.

NotTaylorSwift

techyeshic wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno You do realize that this 12 man group really empowers the already powerful groups that ball up and stack HOTs and Purge; right? I get wanting to reduce the zerg of faction stacks and like that to an extent, but it does impact PUGs and casual players a lot more than the organized groups who may contribute at least as much; if for nothing else other than attracting large responses

This wasn’t about nerfing coordinated groups, it was about improving performance. The group limit and ally target abilities did help performance. It also helped coordinated groups as well as small scale and solo players. The only people who have a bad time is solo healers. And the solution to that is join a group. Imo solo healing has no place in cyrodiil anyway, it’s more rewarding to simply group up as a healer.

This is the best thing they could have done as of now imo ❤️

x48rph

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

Awesome so your basically screwing over healers, pugs, and casuals for what you already admitted was no gain. Great. Guess it might help with performance when you make a bunch of people stop going there. Nothing like watching an alliance mate die next to you and being able to do absolutely nothing about it....

SimonThesis

While I am thankful global aoe cooldowns were not implemented, this decision will end cyrodiil! I will not be renewing my ESO+ subscription.

All this does is empower the small and highly coordinated ball groups. This makes it very difficult for the pvp training guilds that recruit from zone! It usually takes around 16 people from zone to take a well defended keep. This makes the leaarning curve even steeper for cyrodiil.

Since no one outside of a group will get healed, everyone from zone not in a group will just sit in a keep waiting for a defense tick.

KappaKid83

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

A little disappointing that the team came away with nothing substantial besides intergroup healing only and reducing group size but I am hoping this leads to MAYBE a deep look into the base code and MAYBE the server infrastructure as a whole??(Here's looking at you MSFT, please baby jesus!)

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks for the feedback - would be interested in seeing more of the results and reasons for making the decision. (I like the change btw).

Will you be fixing the Undaunted 'Orb' skill prior to these changes? It was broken during the tests.

techyeshic

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno You do realize that this 12 man group really empowers the already powerful groups that ball up and stack HOTs and Purge; right? I get wanting to reduce the zerg of faction stacks and like that to an extent, but it does impact PUGs and casual players a lot more than the organized groups who may contribute at least as much; if for nothing else other than attracting large responses

This wasn’t about nerfing coordinated groups, it was about improving performance. The group limit and ally target abilities did help performance. It also helped coordinated groups as well as small scale and solo players. The only people who have a bad time is solo healers. And the solution to that is join a group. Imo solo healing has no place in cyrodiil anyway, it’s more rewarding to simply group up as a healer.

This is the best thing they could have done as of now imo ❤️

I never said it was about nerfing groups. As I said; their ability to draw players is at least as much responsible for attracting the stacks that cause performance issues as it is the actual stack of players. Them having even more of an upper hand just makes it last longer.

SeaUnicorn

This is great, because rapid regen and healy ward will always pick me over random Phil running about! 2 birds with one stone

Eclipse0990

This change related to group size can work real well in hindsight. Since most of the pug players who zergsurfed and relied on heals from other players in zerg will be forced to team up in small groups to survive, and with the group size halved, the number of groups per faction will rise (talking specifically about lfg groups). There will be more chance of fights being distributed over the map in this case as each group can act as an independent unit and allow for them pursuing different objectives. This won't reduce the lag where its faction vs faction but it should, theoretically bring down the average number of players in an area if the changes work well.
But the question here remains if even reducing the group size to 12 will translate to sustained performance improvement for those in the group. Let's wait and see!

Crown

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Thanks for the feedback - would be interested in seeing more of the results and reasons for making the decision. (I like the change btw).

I like these changes as well, though the points about randoms/solos/tiny groups/pugs that others have made are valid.

While effects (procs from heal sets and the like) being restricted outside of group makes sense for performance, the actual heal not reaching out of group (or into other small groups) is a huge impact to anyone other than a coordinated composition who tries to get into a breach or past a choke.

Ralamil

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

So, two months of pain-in-the-ass tests, for you all to conclude that while it was apparently "helpful," none of it was actually useful. Then saying in one sentence you won't be making any major changes, only to confirm in the next breath that you're slashing max group size in half.

Are you people actually this terrible? You designed Cyrodiil as a large-scale environment for group PVP. That has been the way it has worked for literally years. Some of us actually have friends we play with, and this change would not force us to slash our guild in half, but split people up to run in two separate groups. That's not going to reduce the amount of people in one location, it's just another annoying layer of communication and coordination we have to manage on top of everything else.

Meanwhile, you do literally nothing to address the issue of faction stacking, where you have every gods damned member of a faction in one location on the map at the same time. I've rarely if ever had issues playing this game when it's 3-4 groups of players clashing, but have immense issues when there's 90+ EP alone (nevermind AD or DC that might also be there) at one location.

Nor have you, to my knowledge, addressed several issues many of us believe to be a major cause of performance issues:

• The stuck-in-combat bug keeping folks in combat and calculations running in the background for upwards of tens of minutes after combat has actually ended (in worst case scenarios, from what I've seen)
• Proc set calculations (since you folks love to push these so hard as the meta)
• Server specs being subpar after this many years of being active

Thank you for continuing to save me a minimum of $15 a month, as I am neither going to renew ESO+ nor bother with anything in the crown store if these are the only solutions the developers are capable of coming up with after putting players through months of painful ***.

hammayolettuce

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Stop. Jerking. Us. Around.
Literally no one is under the illusion that these tests improved performance. I spent a lot of money in the crown store this year and I honestly feel like I’ve been scammed. Trying to set up various toons for pvp (because I get bored playing the same thing) because it’s the only part of the game that doesn’t get stale.

Why have I been paying a subscription to participate in testing that at times actually made performance worse? And you guys are still not listening to feedback. This is the cycle that has been pvp in eso since day 1. You guys don’t communicate in-house and the players are the ones that suffer for it.

This was a huge misstep and you guys can’t have any more of my money until you start actually respecting your player base.

Luke_Flamesword

I'm really sad, because it completely destroys my playstyle as solo support for groups. It's sometimes really hard to get group with good leader, now with 12-man gropus it will be even harder. I don't like to follow weak leaders, also I don't want to lead others as well.

With proc sets and without random heals from other players non-CP campaign will be nightmare. For me Cyrodill is ruined with this changes - I already tested it in last weeks and I really don't like it

Cyrodiil will be now "find group (if any will be avaiable at moment) or die". It will be so much harder for random players to do anything against organised trolls.

Making 12-people groups is not end of world, but limiting ally-tageted abillities is just killing solo play. Cyrodiil was beautiful with freedom of playing how you want with a lot of fun tactics, now I will have to run with groups or make stupid meta tanky build with proc sets to survive.

And sorry, but sentence "as we liked the behavioral changes they brought" is for me pure lie - it's only about making performance a bit better even at cost of cuting down parts of gameplay.

Earthewen

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

I"d like to ask a couple of questions if you don't mind ...

"on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes." Could that possibly be because we had a lower population on servers during your testing? Populations are clearly much lower as evidenced by the drop in combat.

"we liked the behavioral changes they brought." What are these behavior changes? Player behaviors or game/server behaviors?

Finally, how many of your player based had a good time during all of these tests? Did you take a poll about this?

NotTaylorSwift

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

I'm really sad, because it completely destroys my playstyle as solo support for groups. It's sometimes really hard to get group with good leader, now with 12-man gropus it will be even harder. I don't like to follow weak leaders, also I don't want to lead others as well.

With proc sets and without random heals from other players non-CP campaign will be nightmare. For me Cyrodill is ruined with this changes - I already tested it in last weeks and I really don't like it

Cyrodiil will be now "find group (if any will be avaiable at moment) or die". It will be so much harder for random players to do anything against organised trolls.

Making 12-people groups is not end of world, but limiting ally-tageted abillities is just killing solo play. Cyrodiil was beautiful with freedom of playing how you want with a lot of fun tactics, now I will have to run with groups or make stupid meta tanky build with proc sets to survive.

And sorry, but sentence "as we liked the behavioral changes they brought" is for me pure lie - it's only about making performance a bit better even at cost of cuting down parts of gameplay.

But that is your issue of "not wanting to follow weak leaders". You literally get nothing more from being a solo healer or support than you do from grouping. In fact if you play as a healer or support or whatever u wanna call it, it actually makes a LOT more sense to group up. Also by 'random players' I assume you mean solo players. This change is actually a lot better for solo players as skills like heal ward and rapid regen are guaranteed to target you rather than a random player. Most solo players have their own heals and they don't need solo healers running around to help them.

also if there are no groups running (which is very rare) its most likely that there isn't much happening in cyrodiil at that moment anyway so grouped or not, as a solo healer, you wouldn't have much to do at all.

In my opinion solo healing/supporting in Cyrodiil just does not make any sense when grouping exists. Is it also not more rewarding to know that you are helping your group and they will recognise that you are helping, rather than random pugs that have no idea you are doing anything to help at all?

Hexys

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

Sounds amazing!

Crash427

Am I just being cynical or did anyone else notice that the one change they did decide on will make the new mythic ring a must have for a lot of players?

Noxji

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just posted this in the main thread, but wanted to cross-post to ensure it's seen and can be discussed here.

First, we wanted to thank you all again for participating in Cyrodiil the last couple months while we held the various tests with AoE abilities. We know it was challenging to play at times, but running these tests on a live environment was the best way for us to test various hypotheses.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

As for next steps, we’re going to take some time to consider future tests we’d like to run; none of these will occur until sometime after the new year. We’ll be sure to let everyone know what types of tests we’ve decided on next and will reconvene here in early 2021.

Tests where interesting for sure. I'm happy to test more in the future.

My favorite test was the one with 12-man groups and heals only applied in groups. To me this was something I wanted long before the tests even began. Therefor I am happy that these are the ones that gets implemented into the game for now.

Something I noticed with the 12-man group tests are: I've never seen so much action spread out in Cyrodiil. Constantly, ongoing action in all directions. That to me was really cool to experience.

I see a lot of people that are not happy with the changes because of "ball-groups". It strengthens them and supports there play style. It would seems so because ball-groups are usually 8-12 man anyway. But let me ask you this! Isn't Cyrodiil about playing as a team, supporting, defending and attacking together? Isn't that the whole point of open world pvp? If you don't like it, play Battlegrounds. If you don't like BG, seek your pvp elsewhere. I never played in a "ball-group", but I would never punish a group of people that clearly works well together.

No matter what system or game. There will always be people that will find a way to grief, or get around a system for there own benefit, or abuse the system all together. Welcome to pvp, not just in ESO.