Upgraded Version of the Kyne's Aegis Trial Skin in the Crown Crates (Why This is a Bad Decision)

TheValkyn

dhboy123 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

*shrug* who cares? besides the OP of course

Alot of people care, it devalues the end game content, something ESO has been doing for a while now.

End game content hasn’t been anything competitive since pre-CP. This game is not meant to tout world first clears anymore. It’s about skipping mechanics and/or skipping boss fights.

Irfind

I like the trial one more(not so dark and a bit silver), but i will never get him. So i am happy with the crown version.

xXMeowMeowXx

I didn’t have to gamble for my trial skin, so idc. Just glad to have the achievement and another skin I will not wear....

After the VMA thingy, things just don’t matter much, knowing where they stand. I just enjoy when I get to play.

Jaimeh

skinnycheeks wrote: »

History of the Devaluing

Then you guys decided that the rewards would no longer come from earning each of the Trinity achievements (the no-death, the hard-mode, and the speedrun) and instead be earned from just clearing on Veteran mode. While I don't agree with making the rewards easier to obtain, I can at least understand why it was done. More people may attempt veteran content if they feel rewards are in reach. It makes sense. The same happened with the latest two 12-Person Trials. Only Veteran difficulty required for the skins instead of the HM difficultly that Asylum Sanctorium and Cloudrest requried. But nevertheless, it does devalue the reward when it is not as difficult to obtain.

Now, a nearly identical skin is sold except it is a BETTER version than the reward in game. It's bad enough that it is so similar, but to put the better version for sale is quite the low-blow.

Unique rewards removed from challenger achielevements was the beginning of the end. I'd go as far as saying the whole vKA is devalued as content, compared to previous trials, but that's another discussion. I get why they want to please the majority of players, it's smart marketing-wise, but why can't they please end-gamers at the same time? Just have rewards for HM/challenger that look unique (as they should), but then also have vet completion rewards, and cool-looking skins, etc., for sale in the CS, this way everyone has the opportunity to get something nice, regardless of what difficulty they complete content in.

colossalvoids

So players enjoying wearing unique skins and badass personalities awarded for more difficult to get achievements? Can't have that, sorry. Maybe a memento as a compensation? Sounds about right, they would love those short n silly animation loops!

Vaoh

colossalvoids wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To the PC players, are you getting a bug in Kyne’s Aegis during boss fights where your in-game sound cuts out permanently (until you restart application)?

Im on PS4 and have mostly had this occur on Vet HM for second boss and last boss. It also affects a bunch of players on my raid team at the exact same time. Very frustrating bug atm on top of the huge fps drops/game stuttering issues that came with Greymoor.

Had only 2-3 hm runs so sample is quite small but no issues like that so far, didn't heard of it before.

I wonder if it only affects console players.

Whenever my sound cut out in previous patches, the game would crash shortly after. Ofc the game does still crash. It’s just a new issue.

On one occasion my ingame sound cut out at about 55% on last boss hard mode, but the ingame music continued to play. And then at around 25% the music cut out as well. Usually all of the sound cuts out simultaneously though, and in all cases, it happens to multiple players.

shaielzafine

The game devs consistently show they do not value hardcore players' time and effort. They value casual players forking out money for story and casual content. With the way the game performance is, it's better to just be a casual player anyway, much less frustrating. Playing hardcore in ESO won't give the same rewards for your time & effort like they do in subscription only games. ESO lootboxes help keep this game running as it is not sub to play. Subscription optional with paid dlc, paid expansion, microtransactions, macro transactions (ex. $150 house costing 3x more than game itself), lootboxes is a lot added up. It's very interesting to see how they can't manage to deliver the performance and server fixes promised when they make so much. They also only do 1 trial and 1-3 zones a year.

Whereas premium sub only MMOs like FF14 will give flying + underwater in 6 zones per expansion, and they give multiple raid tiers (ex.multiple trials, 8man and 24 man raids) with different difficulties (normal/hard/extreme, savage/ultimate) to keep people subscribing. Those MMOs also give earnable rewards like unique mounts & minions for collectors instead of putting them all in the store. Because collecting + raiding + other content that gives timed rewards keeps people subbed longer.

Different monetization models, different devs. ES Skyrim fans will get to go to a multiplayer version of Skyrim if they want. I don't see a problem with them adding the better version of the trials skin in the store, since progressing in trials in this game isn't that fun anymore anyway. Roleplayers can get the skin without effort. People that want to run trials can get the skin without spending money, just spending time. I have all the other trials skins and tbh I'd rather pay the money than fight lag or join multiple progression groups again. The vCR purple was not worth the grind, waste of time progging compared to raiding on FF14 which also gives relevant for the patch gear, minions, mounts, orchestrions, etc. Let everyone have the same skin at this point, we let everyone have vMA weapons already, and the cool mounts are easily gotten on ESO with crowns from subscription too. It's a win for everybody.

Pauls

skinnycheeks wrote: »

But the truth is: we like them as rewards because they are a visual representation of an accomplishment. When I earned my hideous purple skin from completing Veteran Cloudrest +3, I didn't care that it was ugly and looked like giant purple wrinkles. I wanted to wear it everywhere because I was proud of the achievement.

Not "we" but you. Speak for yourself, oh – you already did.
You may be surprised that people like skins not only to brag about but also because they like how it looks, so it doesnt matter how its obtained.

starkerealm

Pauls wrote: »

skinnycheeks wrote: »

But the truth is: we like them as rewards because they are a visual representation of an accomplishment. When I earned my hideous purple skin from completing Veteran Cloudrest +3, I didn't care that it was ugly and looked like giant purple wrinkles. I wanted to wear it everywhere because I was proud of the achievement.

Not "we" but you. Speak for yourself, oh – you already did.
You may be surprised that people like skins not only to brag about but also because they like how it looks, so it doesnt matter how its obtained.

You may have missed a critical detail here. Just because you, "like," skins, doesn't mean they should be selling skins that are very close to existing billboard skins.

Nobody is complaining about the Opal skin, or the Maomer skin, or the flame attro skin, or the deadwater skin, or the Peryite skin, or the frost rhime skin. At least, if they are complaining about them, it's not about their existence, just about the price.

The issue here is that there's a skin directly designed to undermine the prestige of a vet trial skin. If ZOS decided to start selling an alternate version of Blackmarrow Necromancer with a slightly different glow pattern, you can bet people would be extremely upset. It is deeply insulting to anyone who worked for that skin.

While I get that you might like skins, if you want the prestige of wearing one of the billboard skins, you should earn that skin, not buy a knockoff from the Crown Store, and leave people questioning if the skin they're seeing is the result of someone working for it, or opening their wallet. That's a reprehensible slap in the face to anyone who runs endgame content.

At this rate, it's only a matter of time before ZOS starts selling those skins for Event Tickets.

LadyNalcarya

Vaoh wrote: »

They listened to us on Clockwork City PTS when we said to change the vAS skin’s eyes from orange to blue, in order to differentiate it from the vHoF skin.

We asked for them to change the face of the vKA to have white glowing eyes but they didn’t listen to us this time..... I think it’s pretty telling that their mindset is very different this time around.

They don’t care in the slightest for endgame PvE. Near identical rewards (which are actually slightly better) are being offered for $$$ and you can best believe it is 100% intentional.

...But I liked vAS skin with yellow eyes more

I agree that they shouldn't sell skins that are too similar to trial rewards. Though they've done that already (Zmaja's shadow/ebony epidermis). And I really hope they will make less ugly skins in the future. I have a lot of them, but I only ever use the one from vSP lol.

spartaxoxo

As you said, the point of the skin is to display an accomplishment. The only people that would be impressed can recognize the difference and won't be impressed by the crate skin.

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

Now the looks are going to be for everyone and the achievements are still there for those in the know. Which is a good thing.

LadyNalcarya

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As you said, the point of the skin is to display an accomplishment. The only people that would be impressed can recognize the difference and won't be impressed by the crate skin.

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

Now the looks are going to be for everyone and the achievements are still there for those in the know. Which is a good thing.

If you can spend a lot of crowns on gambling, then you can sell said crowns and buy a carry run... Same thing.

starkerealm

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As you said, the point of the skin is to display an accomplishment. The only people that would be impressed can recognize the difference and won't be impressed by the crate skin.

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

Now the looks are going to be for everyone and the achievements are still there for those in the know. Which is a good thing.

You've actually pinpointed the exact issue without understanding.

If you're not in the know, you will think the people wearing those skins got them from gambling. You won't know it's earnable.

This, actually, goes directly against the design goal for those skins. The skins from Vet Dungeons and Trials are described, by the dev team, as billboarding. They're there to say, "hey, look at this cool thing." They're there to entice players into trying more difficult content.

So the entire intent is that you're wearing something cool looking, and someone comes up and asks you, "where did you get that?" The problem is, now they already "know," the answer. You got your vKA skin from a crate.

This has created a situation where the default is, "if you've got a cool skin, you got it from gambling." Which takes a lot of the shine off of stuff like, again, the vKA skin, which does take some work to earn.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

People who do endgame content are not picky at all in general if you're looking for clears and fun but not score pushing, as it obviously needs experience and skill. Vet dlc trial pugs are a norm for most guilds who focus on trials. The problem is that it's super hard to find not a problematic person behaviour vise and also the one willing to learn and not just tag along for the skin he wants so badly. Learn first demand later.
Some just can't wrap their heads on a fact that you won't be progressing vmol and vhof the first evening of joining the guild and vcr+3 at the second.

And ones who actually doing their part and want to learn are usually don't come to forums for such a vent.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

People who do endgame content are not picky at all in general if you're looking for clears and fun but not score pushing, as it obviously needs experience and skill. Vet dlc trial pugs are a norm for most guilds who focus on trials. The problem is that it's super hard to find not a problematic person behaviour vise and also the one willing to learn and not just tag along for the skin he wants so badly. Learn first demand later.
Some just can't wrap their heads on a fact that you won't be progressing vmol and vhof the first evening of joining the guild and vcr+3 at the second.

And ones who actually doing their part and want to learn are usually don't come to forums for such a vent.

That was absolutely not the case in the guilds I have been in. More than willing to learn and invited into several as a result. But that's a pretty wild assumption.

People are picky as hell about who they take into vet dlc trials which is the entire reason they have been made easier. They don't pug those a lot, instead doing very scheduled runs with requirements you have to meet, usually organized on discord.

They have additonal requirements for score runs, and rightfully so, but you're delusional if you think that vet dlc trials is something people tend to PUG.

They put together standards, set particular times, and then progress them. That's the standard. Which leaves very little room for the vast majority of players to do them. And the proof of that is in the vastly different completion levels between the different vet trials.

spartaxoxo

starkerealm wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As you said, the point of the skin is to display an accomplishment. The only people that would be impressed can recognize the difference and won't be impressed by the crate skin.

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

Now the looks are going to be for everyone and the achievements are still there for those in the know. Which is a good thing.

You've actually pinpointed the exact issue without understanding.

If you're not in the know, you will think the people wearing those skins got them from gambling. You won't know it's earnable.

This, actually, goes directly against the design goal for those skins. The skins from Vet Dungeons and Trials are described, by the dev team, as billboarding. They're there to say, "hey, look at this cool thing." They're there to entice players into trying more difficult content.

So the entire intent is that you're wearing something cool looking, and someone comes up and asks you, "where did you get that?" The problem is, now they already "know," the answer. You got your vKA skin from a crate.

This has created a situation where the default is, "if you've got a cool skin, you got it from gambling." Which takes a lot of the shine off of stuff like, again, the vKA skin, which does take some work to earn.

It is going to be a very small amount of players that know what that skin looks like but also can't tell that there is anything different while simultaneously having enough curiousity and attention to detail to ask people where they got skins.

TwilightAngel_89

trial skin should be in crates,crate one should be in trial

AlienSlof

shaielzafine wrote: »

The game devs consistently show they do not value hardcore players' time and effort. They value casual players forking out money for story and casual content.

No, this is an incorrect assumption. The MARKETING department decides how the art assets are distributed; the devs are just told to make stuff. They may not even know exactly how that skin, or that model, or that emote will be offered to the gaming customer. They are told to make, they make.

I worked for a very short time for an up-and-coming game developer (it eventually fizzled out and nothing ever came of it), and I was asked to make this or that. No one told me how those assets would be offered to players, whether in-game or monetised. That part of the team was nothing to do with me or the other artists.

Kiralyn2000

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is going to be a very small amount of players that know what that skin looks like but also can't tell that there is anything different while simultaneously having enough curiousity and attention to detail to ask people where they got skins.

That was my thinking. Even ignoring the part where I just don't get the "I need a neon sign proclaiming I'm awesome" thing; the subset of "people who recognize 'achievement' skins at a glance" + "but not enough to tell the difference between them and their recolors" + "care about this stuff at all" seems like it'd be really small. I'd think that the few people who actually pay attention to "look how cool I am" skins, would know the difference between them and their recolors.


(can only speak for myself, of course; I barely notice other people's skins, don't know which ones represent achievements, and almost never see peoples' titles, either. If your overall look - outfit + hair + skin + etc - is interesting, that I'll notice.)

itsfatbass

Runefang wrote: »

*shrug* who cares? besides the OP of course

Luckily for you there is no down vote on these forums or your ratio would be WHACK.

Shantu

Given the minuscule percentage of players that can actually beat veteran trial content and the ongoing trend toward monetization, none of this is surprising.

shaielzafine

AlienSlof wrote: »

shaielzafine wrote: »

The game devs consistently show they do not value hardcore players' time and effort. They value casual players forking out money for story and casual content.

No, this is an incorrect assumption. The MARKETING department decides how the art assets are distributed; the devs are just told to make stuff. They may not even know exactly how that skin, or that model, or that emote will be offered to the gaming customer. They are told to make, they make.

I worked for a very short time for an up-and-coming game developer (it eventually fizzled out and nothing ever came of it), and I was asked to make this or that. No one told me how those assets would be offered to players, whether in-game or monetised. That part of the team was nothing to do with me or the other artists.

I'm quite sure the artists are doing their job okay, but the rest of the game devs (including combat team) and their leadership consistently send the same message. As I said, more for casual players over hardcore players. This goes beyond trials skins. Example, banning paying longtime subscribers on Twitch streams when they follow up to ask on promised performance roadmap and other content. Banned in chat for even asking about vma. VMA weapons given out as normal rewards to be more easily obtainable by casual players. Very similar crown crate skins to trials skins. Constant nerfs & unnerfs to gear you have already farmed and golded, just because they felt like it. vAS perfected staves hardcore people grinded useless now as it is downgraded to having normal stats. Who knows maybe next time we all get perfected maelstrom & dsa weapons and there will be super perfected ones? Perfected monster masks and shoulders next? They gave no reasoning why they did these things and ignored the multiple threads with pages and pages or feedback from their players. But yea let's all go buy the new crown crates so we have the better looking version of Kynes Aegis skin.

starkerealm

AlienSlof wrote: »

shaielzafine wrote: »

The game devs consistently show they do not value hardcore players' time and effort. They value casual players forking out money for story and casual content.

No, this is an incorrect assumption. The MARKETING department decides how the art assets are distributed; the devs are just told to make stuff. They may not even know exactly how that skin, or that model, or that emote will be offered to the gaming customer. They are told to make, they make.

I worked for a very short time for an up-and-coming game developer (it eventually fizzled out and nothing ever came of it), and I was asked to make this or that. No one told me how those assets would be offered to players, whether in-game or monetised. That part of the team was nothing to do with me or the other artists.

Close, not quite.

The Crown Store team is distinct from marketing, and seems to get first pick when new cosmetic items are created. I'm still not 100% certain the Bloodroot Forge skin wasn't intended to be a dungeon reward until the Crown Store team wandered in and laid claim.

starkerealm

spartaxoxo wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As you said, the point of the skin is to display an accomplishment. The only people that would be impressed can recognize the difference and won't be impressed by the crate skin.

So it is not an issue. They are trying to make items accessible to more than just a handful of guilds. If people who did endgame things had been less picky and more willing to help more people get through that content without charging an arm and a leg, we wouldn't need such things.

Now the looks are going to be for everyone and the achievements are still there for those in the know. Which is a good thing.

You've actually pinpointed the exact issue without understanding.

If you're not in the know, you will think the people wearing those skins got them from gambling. You won't know it's earnable.

This, actually, goes directly against the design goal for those skins. The skins from Vet Dungeons and Trials are described, by the dev team, as billboarding. They're there to say, "hey, look at this cool thing." They're there to entice players into trying more difficult content.

So the entire intent is that you're wearing something cool looking, and someone comes up and asks you, "where did you get that?" The problem is, now they already "know," the answer. You got your vKA skin from a crate.

This has created a situation where the default is, "if you've got a cool skin, you got it from gambling." Which takes a lot of the shine off of stuff like, again, the vKA skin, which does take some work to earn.

It is going to be a very small amount of players that know what that skin looks like but also can't tell that there is anything different while simultaneously having enough curiousity and attention to detail to ask people where they got skins.

That's the problem of where we're at now. The default for all skins has been, "it must have come out of gambling." Hell, even the skins that were originally store purchases have been run through the crates at this point. It does negatively impact the game, because these are supposed to advertise the dungeons they came from, but, as you pointed out, most people aren't going to know that it's from an in game source.

When there were a few store skins, they were the exception, and it was easier to shrug off. However, we're now in a place where skins from crates outnumber the ones being added through in game activities, and the entire idea of "showing off your accomplishments," has degenerated into, "it's probably from a crate, so no need to ask?"

And the intention of having players ask about skins? That wasn't my assumption, or a guess, that was literally Finn's explanation when Kyle and I asked him about the dungeon reward skins on the podcast. The entire point of those skins was to get people into the dungeons. A goal that has now been seriously undermined by the Crown Store team's avarice.

peacenote

Meh. Hate it when they do this because otherwise we could conceivably have had a more unique skin in the crates instead of two similar looking ones.

If they want to help make the look more accessible, they should make similar versions available with easier achievements and make NEW skins for the crown store....

what_the

skinnycheeks wrote: »

Why do we like having cosmetic rewards like skins in video games? Sure, they look cool. But the truth is: we like them as rewards because they are a visual representation of an accomplishment.

Where did you come up with this?
Maybe YOU like/use them 'cause they represent an accomplishment, but don't speak for the masses. I have lots of morphs/costumes/appearance items/skins, some I received at rewards, some i bought at the crown store. Some I use, lots of them I don't, *shrug* I use them for me, because I like certain items, not for recognition..
Those examples you posted are similar in design, but no one would confuse them for each other, so you can still boast your "accomplishment".

starkerealm

what_the wrote: »

...but no one would confuse them for each other...

...when they're next to each other and labeled. When you're out in the game, without a quick reference to drag up, and don't have the exact shade of gray memorized? Yeah, they're going to confuse people. They'll also confuse people who don't know there are two different versions.

So, no one who is looking at that screenshot when they see one of them in game is likely to confuse them. But all the players who just randomly run across it? Yeah, they absolutely will confuse things.

SydneyGrey

I think the crown crate one was ruined by the markings on the face, but that's just my opinion.

karekiz

starkerealm wrote: »

AlienSlof wrote: »

shaielzafine wrote: »

The game devs consistently show they do not value hardcore players' time and effort. They value casual players forking out money for story and casual content.

No, this is an incorrect assumption. The MARKETING department decides how the art assets are distributed; the devs are just told to make stuff. They may not even know exactly how that skin, or that model, or that emote will be offered to the gaming customer. They are told to make, they make.

I worked for a very short time for an up-and-coming game developer (it eventually fizzled out and nothing ever came of it), and I was asked to make this or that. No one told me how those assets would be offered to players, whether in-game or monetised. That part of the team was nothing to do with me or the other artists.

Close, not quite.

The Crown Store team is distinct from marketing, and seems to get first pick when new cosmetic items are created. I'm still not 100% certain the Bloodroot Forge skin wasn't intended to be a dungeon reward until the Crown Store team wandered in and laid claim.

There is a very old video where they said it was. The skin was created as a reward but then they swapped to a hat.

The reason stated was to allow players to equip both rewards at the same time <Hat + Skin> vs Hist rewards of two skins and only one wearable.

It makes some sense, but it was a back peddle at the time.

Fang Lair/Scale Caller has always had the best combo rewards. Personalities would be a great Vet trial Trifecta reward. Mounts too <Godslayer>.

MasterSpatula

Wow, the Crown version is remarkably better.

Disgusting.